Author Topic: The big bang theory is bs!  (Read 18954 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #261 on: October 21, 2011, 07:26:16 AM »

What exactly did i make up ?


Pretty much everything you have said here.


present a better explanation.

appeal to ignorance
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #262 on: October 21, 2011, 07:31:53 AM »
One day you will know the truth. If you are wrong however, it might be too late to change opinion.....

Ah, I wondered when we'd get to the threats about what will happen if we honestly don't believe in the loving, caring god that created and loves us all and dearly wants a relationship with us....he'll send us away for eternal torture rather than (as might perhaps being more logical for a loving omnipotent being who wants a relationship with us) say, knocking on the door and introducing himself.

Nope, this caring loving god would rather hide and drop "clues", and - despite having loyal servants on earth like yourself - will not provide any evidence of his existence.

No matter how often we ask for it.

Your ignorance will not change the fact, that there is more evidence for Gods existence, than ever before in human history. Your position does not withstand rational scrutiny, therefore you can justify it only based on emotional reasons, on wishful thinking, God not to exist.

You have, apparently, no clue what the term "Rational scrutiny" means.

There are no "emotional reasons" for a lack of a beilief in Yahweh than there are "emotional reasons" for a lack of belief in Bigfoot.

If you have evidence, credible objective evidence present it.

This is my three part challange:


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline plethora

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #263 on: October 21, 2011, 08:05:27 AM »
Can you explain how absolute nothing can cause something into existence ? the flaw of your argument is evident.

You probably don't know this, but Cyberia is actually a scientist (unlike most of us here who are merely science enthusiasts). You're way out of your league.

He didn't say absolute nothing caused the universe to come into existence. He is saying the universe was uncaused.

Absolute nothing can't cause anything... so if something arises within this nothingness, it is not caused by the absolute nothingness. It is without cause.

A cause, by definition, precedes the effect. That means there is a sequence. You can't have a sequence without time. Time began when the universe came into existence. By definition, if time did not exist "beyond" the beginning of the universe, then a preceding cause is impossible. Which leads us to the conclusion that the universe is uncaused.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline kin hell

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #264 on: October 21, 2011, 08:15:47 AM »

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.

Heretical poison.
Your sect will never explore the eternal navel of the one true god.
I defy your corruption of His name and loudly call on OOGABOOGA to judge you for all and every eternity. 
Then it will be too late to lament your hubris and anger at god, as you fester in the plague pits for the length of this universe and the infinite universes that follow.



 


Godexists.    ...................wishful thinking.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #265 on: October 21, 2011, 08:39:36 AM »
My salvation is a result entirely on what Jesus Christ did on the cross. My repentance and aknowledge of what Jesus did on the Cross, is a passive, not a active act.
So, you didn't choose to be a Christian, then?  Someone else made you go through the motions and you just passively went along with it, and are still going along with it?  That's what a so-called 'passive' act really means, to just go along with something that someone else does.  An 'active' act, on the other hand, is how the word 'action' is actually defined.

Of course we can know it. Since God manifested himself to us through his word , the bible, and testified that there will be a final judgement, where each of our words will be judged.
That isn't knowing it.  That's believing you know it, which is not at all the same thing.  People believed that they knew the sun revolved around the earth for a long, long time, but their belief did not actually change what really happens.  So no, you can not know it.  You can only believe you know it, and that's entirely the point.  Because if you happen to be wrong in some or all particulars, your belief won't change that fact, and you can't possibly know for sure until after you die.

And who is to blame , if they do not believe it, and afterwards, it happens anyway ?
Depends on the reliability of the information.  If we have direct visual observation of an asteroid, and we can track its path to Earth, and tell where it's going to hit, and someone there doesn't believe it and then gets killed, there's no question that it was their own fault, because all of those things make it a pretty reliable prediction.  But if the only information we have on something was written thousands of years ago, by people who were ignorant of others possibility or even the mere conception of a scientific explanation, and furthermore it contradicted itself in a number of ways, then I think we could blame the writer(s) of the book for being so totally incoherent and unreliable.  Furthermore, even a broken clock can be right occasionally, but that doesn't mean we rely on the clock for accurate information.

Non, that for sure. Thats logical. But what is your point ?
My point is that you're basing the foundation of your morality on God's judgment in the afterlife.  Something you can't prove exists, and the only evidence you have is a book that's thousands of years old and internally self-contradictory.  What do you think happens to someone who believes that God is the source of all morality if they stop believing in God?  As opposed to someone who developed their morality out of simple, observable, and verifiable precepts and thus has something solid to base it on, whether or not they have a belief in God.

Justice and fairness is not directed only on a human level. Who sets the rules of the game, is the creator of the game. I believe God made human kind, so that we could interact with him, live to glorify him, to live upon his will, not a selfcentered life, but a God centered life, and as a consequence, love each other.  I believe, God in essence is love. The more we center our live to him, and live according to his will, the more WE are blessed , and happy. Its a constant sharing of one to the other. But we can have a relationship with God only, if we are pure and holy, as he is. But nobody of us is capable to live a perfect, holy, sinless life. The only way out was, God to send his son to die for us, and carry all our sins on the cross. As long as someone pays for sins, its fair.
The day, someone can do whatever, and is not charged, fairness ends.
And so you prove my point.  It's all about believing in God; fairness is set to the side, because it's far more important to try to get everyone to believe.  Except that it doesn't work that way in the real world.  One of the worst wars in history, the Thirty Years War, was fought between different Christian nations; not a one of them was not Christian.  They all believed in Jesus, in personal salvation, etc, yet that didn't stop them from fighting a war that lasted for decades and killed millions of Christian civilians who just happened to be in the way.  Because they had their eyes set firmly on the afterlife, and so what they did in this life to all those people didn't really matter in the long run.

It seems you do not know the bible. There is a also a judgement of the ones, that accepted forgiveness. And we will be judged also according to what we did in this life. Who served well, will receive a higher prize, than the ones that did little here on earth.
I used to read the Bible in church.  Do not presume to tell me that I don't know the Bible.

And the fact of the matter is that this judgment you speak of is inherently unjust and unfair.  It focuses on whether a person believes in Jesus as personal savior, not on what they actually did in life.  Sure, okay, they might get slapped on the wrist a few times if they weren't a particularly good person, but they still face only reward in the afterlife.  Whereas someone who doesn't profess the belief in Jesus as personal savior can be the most saintly person ever to live and still end up going on to be 'punished' in hell...for the 'crime' of not having the right beliefs while alive.  The fact that the rewards or punishments can differ in degree does not change the fact that the basis of whether they face a reward or a punishment is solely on whether they believe or not.

the bible is clear, we were saved , not through good deeds, but to do good deeds. If someone does not show any change of life, its a sign that his conversion was not true.
Which of course does not change the fact that there is no real incentive to do those good deeds.  It's easy to talk about greater or lesser rewards in heaven, but those aren't really 'real' to people (especially since heaven is just a concept, not someplace that people can actually go see).  And a Christian can show a change in behavior, thus proving their conversion was 'true', without going to any particular effort to do good deeds.  Go to church once a week, drop some money in the offertory, etc.

The quest is if God really asked them to do so......
I assume you mean question?  And good job of restating what I just got done saying.  Of course the question is whether God actually asked them to do so.  But it's not something you can prove in the affirmative.  There is no way to say, "God definitely did tell this person to commit murder".  For that matter, there's no way to prove that God didn't tell them to do it, because there's no reason God couldn't send mental afflictions onto someone for the express purpose of telling them to do it.

to himself, since there is nobody above him.
In other words, he's accountable to no one.  If he decided that he was tired of doing the 'salvation' thing, he could change his mind and send everyone to hell, and nobody could stop him.  And you can't say for sure that this won't happen, because it's already happened twice according to Christian doctrine.  God decided to kill off the world, and spared the ark; God decided to 'kill' himself via a passion play in order to spare people who he had already condemned based on an apocryphal event that nobody can really prove happened in the first place.

He did not suffer anything , and if there is nothing beside life here on earth, he is not suffering anything on the other side either. That is not just, compared to the thousands, which were imprisoned, tortured, and killed upon his command.
Justice is not inflicting misery on someone merely because that someone inflicted misery onto others.  The fact that you cannot conceive of justice that doesn't involve getting people back for bad things they did suggests to me that you don't really understand what justice actually is.

Eye for eye is not just ?
No, it isn't.  I'm gonna paraphrase Sun Tzu here, because although he was talking about victory in warfare in the original quote, I think it applies to other things as well.  True justice is not achieved by punishing people for deeds they have already committed; it is achieved by convincing them not to commit the deeds in the first place.  The original quote is, roughly, "To subdue the enemy in battle is not the acme of skill; to subdue the enemy without fighting is."

Its not siimply and only about making someone stop doing evil. If Hitler repent, and changed his mind in 1945, after 50 million deads, and said : holy shit. I made some tremendous bad things. Ill stop continuing promoting war. And no consequence at all would apply. Would that be right ?
No, but not for the reason that you're trying to suggest.  For one thing, everyone would assume that he was simply trying to get out of being punished for those things, and nobody would accept for a minute that he was serious.  And, chances are, they would be right not to believe him, because Hitler had a tendency to make promises and then break them.

But let's turn that around.  What do you think would be a good punishment for Hitler?  He was ultimately responsible for the ~50 million dead...should we kill him 50 million times?  That's what you're suggesting, that the only way for there to be justice is for a person to suffer the same consequences as their victims did.  And in this case, that would presumably mean having someone who can kill, then resurrect, then kill again, etc, Hitler ~50 million times, as well as inflict all the non-lethal damage that he was also responsible for.  In this case, I assume you mean God.

I say again, that isn't justice.  That's just a desire for vengeance.  Justice is in preventing someone like Hitler from being able to do that ever again, not in indulging a lust for vengeance by having God do all the punishing you could want someone to suffer.

justice. He would pay for the evil done. Sins are primarly directed against God, and then against other people.
Except that it.  Isn't.  Justice!  Making someone pay for something is the very definition of vengeance, and is the antithesis of justice.  You need to understand the difference between the two, that a desire for vengeance undermines the very concept of justice.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #266 on: October 21, 2011, 09:02:36 AM »
We ALL deserve hell......

You don't seem to me like you would deserve Hell.  Possibly a punch in the mouth or a swift kick in the junk or a crisp knife-hand strike to the throat.  Yeah.  I think hell is too much but, you could definitely use a good ass kicking.  But you would know better than I what you deserve, so I'll take your word for it.  I can say with complete confidence that I have done nothing to deserve infinite torture.

I might deserve a little paddling by Winona Ryder or Emma Stone.  Or both.  Yes, definitely both.  And they would do it dressed in black boostiers, like she wore in Easy A.  And fishnet stockings.   But definitely not infinite torture.



But there can be a BEYOND time. A timeless eternity.

I've asked you to explain what this means[1].  You've not.  Yet, you keep claiming it as a viable explanation for something.  Until you explain what this means or how it is possible, it is just some words you have mashed together.  Just because some words can be mashed together does not mean they form a coherent idea.


edit - added link to old post
 1. way back on page 7
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 09:43:13 AM by screwtape »
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #267 on: October 21, 2011, 09:37:18 AM »
We ALL deserve hell......

This is the most despicable part of your beliefs. It's a hateful concept. A self-loathing attitude towards one's self and all of humanity.

You are beyond help. You have my pity.

Agreed. How can you possibly say that? Who have you EVER met in your life that deserves *ETERNAL* *TORTURE*?

Who have you ever met in your life that deserves a DAY'S worth of *torture*???

Both you AND your bronze aged boogieman of a god are some SICK fucking puppies man. You should be goddamn Baker-acted if you really think that repugnant shit. Seriously. You have no business walking around in a free society with that kind of psychopathic attitude.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a MORE messed up thing to think about your fellow human beings. What an amazing piece of shit you are. And what an amazingly retarded and negative religion you've got yourself involved in.

I swear, we need to start chemically castrating you fuckers, because you're all getting uglier by the generation and this shit needs to STOP.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #268 on: October 21, 2011, 11:18:24 AM »
We ALL deserve hell......

You don't seem to me like you would deserve Hell.  Possibly a punch in the mouth or a swift kick in the junk or a crisp knife-hand strike to the throat.  Yeah.  I think hell is too much but, you could definitely use a good ass kicking.  But you would know better than I what you deserve, so I'll take your word for it.  I can say with complete confidence that I have done nothing to deserve infinite torture.


Don't you think that's a little severe.

Just putting in a brightly lit pit, conversing with him and spraying him down with a super soaker and yelling "STUPID!" whenever he says anything...well...stupid...is more what he really deserves. But only because he's a human being and should have an opportunity to not be a backwards savage.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #269 on: October 21, 2011, 11:36:07 AM »
Don't you think that's a little severe.

Just putting in a brightly lit pit, conversing with him and spraying him down with a super soaker and yelling "STUPID!" whenever he says anything...well...stupid...is more what he really deserves. But only because he's a human being and should have an opportunity to not be a backwards savage.

meh. ass-kickin'/ hosing down.  either way.  My point is, while I think he definitely deserves some kind of...consequence, I don't think he deserves hell. 

I think that makes me far more kind and compassionate than him.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #270 on: October 21, 2011, 01:05:09 PM »
Just what makes you think that self-righteous prattle

I am not better than anyone else. The difference between you and me is only, that i received grace and forgiveness upon my repentence and faith in Jesus Christ.


No the difference between you and me is that you refuse to examine a certain collection of Bronze age myths with the eyes of a skeptic....but use skepiticism on every other myth structure. And that you are proud of your ignorance and inability to look at things rationally. Am I better than you, in this aspect I am. That is all I know or can assume with the evidence.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #271 on: October 21, 2011, 01:10:55 PM »
I am not claiming to know the answer to this.

Why not ? Isnt it more than clear, that from apples, strawberrys cannot arise ?

Actually with a dedicated enough of a breeding program and few hundred millenia, they could. It would be a colosal waste of resources and time to do so.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #272 on: October 21, 2011, 01:20:08 PM »
If the universe had a beginning, and all scientific evidence points toward that direction, then it must have had a cause. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.

Stop that. Stop. Stop it. No one here has said that. If they have, please point me to them so I can give them an overly-stern look.  >:(

Nor has anyone said the Big Bang was the absolute start of everything. Nor do we necessarily need a beginning. Until we have evidence to actually say any of these things, we haven't said them. Stop putting words in our mouths, as our mouths are already full of the words that we put there ourselves!

ok. Fine tuned universe. Information in DNA. Morals. Religious experience. All point toward God.  :)

Hoo boy... ok, first off; you have a funny definition of "fine tuned". 99.9% of the universe would kill us in less than an hour, most places in under a minute. Some in mere seconds. If there's a God, then TardigradesWiki are his special creation.

Tardigrades are awesome.

Second; DNA is no more "information" than any other chemical reaction. That's all DNA is - chemical reaction after chemical reaction - this is why there are so many failures in DNA that cause so many genetic deformities. If a God were to produce this, he should have put in a half-way decent failsafe to prevent the afore-mentioned genetic deformities which can lead to anything from Down's Syndrome to Cancer.

Third; Morals change so dramatically from culture to culture, there is nothing that can truly be called 'objective' about them. The only way morals come about is evolution that encourages survival through social harmony and cohesion.

And lastly; Religious experience. Drug experience. Chemical imbalance "experience" (like Schizophrenia). These are all mental, and they can all be explained through entirely natural means.

Humans have a great pattern-finding ability. Too great. It helped us survive in our early years, but it's still around, and it causes us to link completely unrelated things together in an attempt to explain the world around us. When everything can be simplified to "Goddidit", that Pattern-Seeking part of the Human Psyche is overjoyed. Unfortunately, that part of the Human Psyche doesn't care as much about logic - or reality.

If the above really did point to your god (or any god), they would show him to be Incompetent(DNA fail-safes), Indecisive (Morals between cultures), and kinda dumb (Religious experiences being so similar to other chemical changes in the brain). Really, you might want to find better evidence than that.

Think about how concience and information, which is a essentially other thing, than dead matter, can arise naturally, without God, from matter ?

Easy; Chemical reactions. Give them a few billion years and I think our pattern recognition instincts will pick something up.  &)

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Godexists you are a MORON

And you seem not to have enough brain to make your point, without adhom attack the other part......sad.

In order for it to be an adhom attack, it would need to be of the format "Godexists, you are a moron, therefore my stance is correct." In other words, it must be the sole support for an argument. Technically, it doesn't have to be an insult, but most often is. "You are a doctor, therefore I'm right." would also count.

Instead, this was merely an attack of the form "Godexists, you are a moron." with no implication that this specific quality (being a moron) assists in making any specific argument.

Might get away with saying it's "Poisoning the well", but the well wasn't particularly clean to begin with.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #273 on: October 21, 2011, 01:22:45 PM »
If you acknowledge such a thing, mythical or not, it automatically becomes active by the act of your acknowledging it.  It is no longer passive, and it cannot be made so.

Luther  explained it in that way : "I am not able  to believe   in Jesus Christ through my own strength , or come to Him." And the Scripture, the Word of God says, and assured us that we all are without distinction, by nature spiritually blind, deaf, dead, why, are hostile to God. The apostle Paul writes: "The natural man - that man, as he is by nature - nothing heard from the Spirit of God , and its foolishness to him and he can not detect it, for it must be spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2.14. Luther: "Namely because we by nature are not subject to the laws of God, and also do not want and can, and have as an unwilling heart against God and an evil conscience, we are enemies of God's nature and  hate him. In the same way, as a physically dead body cannot ressurrect by own forces, in the same way, we cannot get out by ourself of our depraved nature, until a stronger force comes, and takes us out of spiritual death. That is the holy spirit. He can wake us up to a new faith in Jesus Christ. So, even if it seems contraditory : If someone rejects God's grace, it is the fault of that person. But if someone accepts Jesus Christ, its entirely the merit of the holy spirit.

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I think the Bible is much too stupid and vicious-minded a book to be the work of a real god (assuming any such thing as a 'real god' exists).

Have you read the bible ?

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If you believe in an eternal hell, in which sentient beings are made to experience horrific torment for eternity, then fairness is impossible.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/95-the-doctrine-of-eternal-punishment

Quote
No one will be in hell who does not deserve to be there. God is loving (1 John 4:8), good (Psalm 145:9), and merciful (Ephesians 2:4). He will only do that which is right (Genesis 18:25). The Lord does not desire that a single soul should perish (2 Peter 3:9), but when men choose to live alienated from him, and cast their eternal welfare toward hell, he will honor their decision. Paul wrote concerning those who are “vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction” (Romans 9:22). Arndt and Gingrich, viewing the verb as a middle voice form, suggest that these “prepared themselves for destruction” (1967, 419; see also Vine 1991). When folks thrust from them the Word of God, they judge themselves unworthy of eternal life (Acts 13:46). Atheists somehow feel that the Lord is obligated to force rebels into his eternal, holy presence, even when they have despised him their entire lives!
Because Jehovah is holy, he cannot simply overlook sin as if it does not exist (Habakkuk 1:13); and so, because the Lord is just (Psalm 89:14), evil must be punished (cf. Revelation 16:5). That is why the Father gave his Son as a sacrifice for sin—that he might remain just, and yet be a justifier of those who obey Christ (cf. Romans 3:24-26; Hebrews 5:8-9). No man can complain about the injustice of hell in the face of the cross!
Even in hell the judgment will be fair. The Scriptures teach that punishment will be proportionate to the degree of one’s guilt (cf. Matthew 10:15; 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:12-13). One will be judged according to his knowledge, ability, and opportunity. God will be equitable!


Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #274 on: October 21, 2011, 02:45:12 PM »
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/95-the-doctrine-of-eternal-punishment
First off, thank you for separating quotes that you take from other sites out from the rest of your post.  You have no idea how difficult it can be to tell where the quote ends without it.

Second, someone gets the blame for not accepting God's grace, but God gets the credit if they do accept it?  That's not the way things work.  That's like saying that a student in a classroom is solely at fault if they don't learn anything out of the class, but if they do, the teacher gets all the credit.  What, pray tell, is 'fair' about that?  If the student fails to learn what they need to learn out of the class, both the student and the teacher bear fault for it[1].  And if the student succeeds in learning, both the student and the teacher were responsible and thus both should get credit.  So, too, you cannot exonerate God for all the blame, but simultaneously give him all the credit.  Either he gets no blame but no credit, or he gets all the blame and all the credit, or he gets some of the blame and some of the credit.  It is really that simple.

As for your quote about the 'fairness' of eternal punishment...  First off, eternal, unending punishment is not fair for any crime to begin with.  There is no possible way to justify a limitless, unending punishment for any crime, because crimes by their very nature are limited.  Even if someone were the pure essence of evil and did nothing but vileness every single second of their life on Earth, it would still be limited by the fact of their eventual death.  And yet, we are supposed to accept that they deserve a limitless punishment for it?  One that is declared to be fair?  Yet that is exactly what the Christian doctrine of hell is; a limitless punishment that someone is aware of.  Once you're in hell, you don't come back out again.

Second, everything you've said on the subject has underscored the statement that Christians emphasize belief over every other consideration.  If you believe, you get eternal life in heaven.  If you don't believe, you get eternal suffering in hell.  Of course, this is 'justified' by the belief that everyone is inexorably tainted by "original sin", and the only way to get out of that is to believe, but that in effect means that God decided that every human, including all the billions who didn't come into existence until afterward, wasn't worth trying to salvage till he got the idea of holding his "passion play".  You can point to statements about how the exact punishments will fit the deeds of the person who did them, except that they're still facing nothing but punishment because of being in hell.  None of the good they did in life means anything if a person faces nothing but punishment after the fact.  The same goes for a lesser reward in heaven if someone wasn't quite as good, except that it completely ignores whatever wrongs they might have committed. And that is not fair.  Not in any way, shape, or form.

I've described heaven and hell as an extremely crude reward/punishment system before, and nothing you've said has done anything to change my mind about it.  And I think if you actually stop and look at your beliefs, instead of simply parroting them over and over again, you might gain some understanding of why.
 1. How much is up for debate, but you cannot automatically exonerate the teacher in a case like that.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline pingnak

Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #275 on: October 21, 2011, 03:13:51 PM »
Yeah, that TV show is such BS.  Nerds like those portrayed on the show are practically emitting an anti-female force field.

*knock knock knock* Pingnak!  ;D

Damn, too bad the force field doesn't have a door.

BTW, I'm not a nerd like that... I'm worse.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #276 on: October 21, 2011, 03:55:31 PM »
Just for asserting that everyone deserves hell, even sweet little grannies, mentally handicapped people and incredibly patient atheists....

I hereby cast my vote for the swift kick to the junk. :police:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #277 on: October 21, 2011, 05:01:23 PM »
Second, someone gets the blame for not accepting God's grace, but God gets the credit if they do accept it?  That's not the way things work.  That's like saying that a student in a classroom is solely at fault if they don't learn anything out of the class, but if they do, the teacher gets all the credit.  What, pray tell, is 'fair' about that?  If the student fails to learn what they need to learn out of the class, both the student and the teacher bear fault for it[1].  And if the student succeeds in learning, both the student and the teacher were responsible and thus both should get credit.  So, too, you cannot exonerate God for all the blame, but simultaneously give him all the credit.  Either he gets no blame but no credit, or he gets all the blame and all the credit, or he gets some of the blame and some of the credit.  It is really that simple.
 1. How much is up for debate, but you cannot automatically exonerate the teacher in a case like that.

Spiritual things must be understood spiritually........

Quote
As for your quote about the 'fairness' of eternal punishment...  First off, eternal, unending punishment is not fair for any crime to begin with.  There is no possible way to justify a limitless, unending punishment for any crime, because crimes by their very nature are limited.

Rejecting God, and God's offered grace, is a  limitless, unquantifiable sin and offence. Its not about quantity, but about quality.....


 
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Once you're in hell, you don't come back out again.

That's why we should think before we die, where we do want to spend our eternity. The bible does not tell about a second chance, after death.

Quote
Second, everything you've said on the subject has underscored the statement that Christians emphasize belief over every other consideration.  If you believe, you get eternal life in heaven.  If you don't believe, you get eternal suffering in hell.  Of course, this is 'justified' by the belief that everyone is inexorably tainted by "original sin", and the only way to get out of that is to believe, but that in effect means that God decided that every human, including all the billions who didn't come into existence until afterward, wasn't worth trying to salvage till he got the idea of holding his "passion play".

That's what you think, but God is  compassionate, and he is just enough to give every human being a fair chance to find salvation.


 
Quote
You can point to statements about how the exact punishments will fit the deeds of the person who did them, except that they're still facing nothing but punishment because of being in hell.  None of the good they did in life means anything if a person faces nothing but punishment after the fact.

You don't understand the holyness of God, and that if someone wants to be saved by good deeds, he must live a perfect life. Something, nobody is capable of doing.


 
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The same goes for a lesser reward in heaven if someone wasn't quite as good, except that it completely ignores whatever wrongs they might have committed. And that is not fair.  Not in any way, shape, or form.

The bible says our sins are forgiven, ones we repent, and receive Jesus Christ as our lord and savior. But there will be differences of glory , for the ones that lived a life more acording to Gods will, than others.

Quote
I've described heaven and hell as an extremely crude reward/punishment system before, and nothing you've said has done anything to change my mind about it.

The alternative is just to let people sin the way they want ,and to let them go  with it, without reward whatsoever. THAT is crude and unjust in my eyes.


 
Quote
And I think if you actually stop and look at your beliefs, instead of simply parroting them over and over again, you might gain some understanding of why.

I think your worldview is unspeakably worse. No God, no reason of life, everything ends when we die, everyone can do whatever he wants, and will never be charged......and who does good things, like give its life for others, will not be rewarded either. Such people would be amongst the most stupid on earth. No God, no moral standard, whatever we do, is ok. If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.  All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 05:03:20 PM by Godexists »

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #278 on: October 21, 2011, 05:07:51 PM »
Just for asserting that everyone deserves hell, even sweet little grannies, mentally handicapped people and incredibly patient atheists....

I hereby cast my vote for the swift kick to the junk. :police:

you are right,  people which cannot be held aknowledgeable for what they do, cannot either be charged for wrong doings. And certainly God will not do so. Nowhere the bible says God will send children and mentally ill people to hell.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #279 on: October 21, 2011, 05:24:15 PM »
Quote
Once you're in hell, you don't come back out again.

That's why we should think before we die, where we do want to spend our eternity. The bible does not tell about a second chance, after death.

You don't understand the holyness of God, and that if someone wants to be saved by good deeds, he must live a perfect life. Something, nobody is capable of doing.

Quote
I've described heaven and hell as an extremely crude reward/punishment system before, and nothing you've said has done anything to change my mind about it.

The alternative is just to let people sin the way they want ,and to let them go  with it, without reward whatsoever. THAT is crude and unjust in my eyes.

I think your worldview is unspeakably worse. No God, no reason of life, everything ends when we die, everyone can do whatever he wants, and will never be charged......and who does good things, like give its life for others, will not be rewarded either. Such people would be amongst the most stupid on earth. No God, no moral standard, whatever we do, is ok. If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.  All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.

The idea that we, mortal human beings have an eternity to "spend" anywhere is senseless. We are mortals who die and cease living. While we are alive, it is possible to "live a perfect sinless life" if Jesus did it right? THink about it for a minute, if living a perfect life was not possible, then being punished for sin would not be justifiable and God would be totally unfair for demanding holiness ("Be holy as I am holy") and wanting us to NOT fall short of His glory.

The part of us that thinks, feels, and perceives emerges in us because we are alive, so guess what naturally happens when we die. No more thinking, feeling, or experiencing anything because we are dead. Believe it or not, the Bible in various places including Psalms and Ecclesiastes supports this conclusion. What that implies whether one takes the Bible's word for it or observes reality is that there is no existance during death. Sorry, but going to Heaven or to Hell after death is too far fetched an idea to accept AND it isn't even strongly supported by the Bible.

Just because there is no all-encompassing objective and unchanging moral standard issued by a supreme being doesn't mean that man, who happens to be a social creature, will not develop and implement moral standards of behavior for itself and punish those that violate those standards. In life, we are accountable to ourselves as well as those with whom we interact, so there definitely is/are standards of behavior for us.
There are plenty of reasons for living life even IF life sprang up accidentally. The biggest and most obvious is because we exist and are alive in the moment. Make the most of it and enjoy it! While we're at it, seeing as to how we know that death awaits us all, why not focus a percentage of our collective abilities on finding a way to beat death and survive both a a species and as individuals.

Offline Alzael

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #280 on: October 21, 2011, 05:33:18 PM »
you are right,  people which cannot be held aknowledgeable for what they do, cannot either be charged for wrong doings. And certainly God will not do so. Nowhere the bible says God will send children and mentally ill people to hell.

This is counter to what you have previously said about everyone deserving hell.

It also goes against your notion of justice as you've stated it. If we all deserve hell and god is not giving it to some people who deserve it, then there can be no justice of the sort that you believe in.

But not a bad job of mental contortionism.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #281 on: October 21, 2011, 07:46:12 PM »
Spiritual things must be understood spiritually........
I might buy that, if I thought the Bible was an accurate representation of God's thoughts.  The problem is, if it, especially the Old Testament, represents how God acts and thinks, it means God's basically a spoiled child who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way, and who plays games with his creations for his own enjoyment.  Since I don't accept that God is like that, that leads me to the firm conclusion that the Bible is a human book, written by humans, who tried to understand the nature of God, but who did not understand their own tendency to self-project their attributes onto God and so made him look like what they expected, a Bronze Age absolutist tyrant-king.  The New Testament is the same thing, just based on Judeo-Roman beliefs, which is why God is shown as being nicer but still an Iron Age absolutist emperor.

Rejecting God, and God's offered grace, is a  limitless, unquantifiable sin and offence. Its not about quantity, but about quality.....
That is nothing but a cop-out, and it's a rather despicable one at that.  It's only an excuse to justify the existence of hell when you have a supposedly-benevolent supreme being in charge of everything, and it's not even necessary, because it so badly undermines the idea of that benevolent being.

That's why we should think before we die, where we do want to spend our eternity. The bible does not tell about a second chance, after death.
Yeah, we wouldn't want that, would we?  Second chances are such untidy things.  Seriously, think about it.  Even assuming some sort of afterlife, the idea that people get tossed in an eternal prison to face eternal punishment is not compatible with any conception of benevolence.  I'd rather have eternal oblivion after death than spend one second in the company of a being that could callously condemn anyone to such a horrible fate, while blaming them for it and taking the credit for those who got sent to an eternal reward.  But what I'd really prefer is to do whatever I could for that being's victims to free them from their torment.

That's what you think, but God is  compassionate, and he is just enough to give every human being a fair chance to find salvation.
Except that is neither compassion nor justice.  The so-called 'compassion' of the God that you worship is to offer a quid pro quo, with a very hefty stick if they don't accept it.  And as for justice, a "fair chance to find salvation" basically means taking a guess and hoping you got it right.  People would have better odds playing the lottery than that.

You don't understand the holyness of God, and that if someone wants to be saved by good deeds, he must live a perfect life. Something, nobody is capable of doing.
I think I have a pretty good idea of how holiness works, actually.  And I also think that true holiness would seek to uplift people, no matter what it cost or how long it took, rather than condemning a single soul to an eternity of torment.  Sure, nobody's capable of living a perfect life, but I would think a truly just and compassionate being would take that into account, rather than giving people one chance and then tossing them into hell forevermore.  And to be honest, as much as I abhor the caste system it was used to justify, the Hindu belief in reincarnation based on the deeds one did in life is much closer to justice than the system that you espouse.

The bible says our sins are forgiven, ones we repent, and receive Jesus Christ as our lord and savior. But there will be differences of glory , for the ones that lived a life more acording to Gods will, than others.
Yeah, differences in glory.  But it's all still glory.  What you're actually saying is that the vilest human being who ever lived, who repents at the end of their life, will end up with a better fate than the most saintly human being who ever lived, who never accepted Jesus (or never heard of him, which is worse).

The alternative is just to let people sin the way they want ,and to let them go  with it, without reward whatsoever. THAT is crude and unjust in my eyes.
Your 'alternative' is just a fancy way to say, "Ah, screw it, I don't care."  No, the alternative is to come up with legitimate ways to encourage good behavior.  Ones that can be verified to work, and allow people to learn from mistakes and profit from good decisions.  And what you're espousing doesn't do either.  Honestly, the ancient Jewish rules in Leviticus do a better job of that (though still not anything resembling a good job) than the Christian one you espouse.

I think your worldview is unspeakably worse. No God, no reason of life, everything ends when we die, everyone can do whatever he wants, and will never be charged......and who does good things, like give its life for others, will not be rewarded either. Such people would be amongst the most stupid on earth. No God, no moral standard, whatever we do, is ok. If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.  All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.
And just what makes you think it is 'my' worldview?  I never said I thought that way, you just assumed that since I was arguing against you, I had to hold to that sort of nihilistic worldview.  And that's not even contemptible, because it's beneath contempt.  In fact, it's really rather piteous.  You haven't even made the most basic of efforts to try to understand what I and others here have been trying to tell you, let alone to try to understand us as people.  No, you make the fundamental mistake of assuming a false dilemma, that anything that does not match what you believe is actually a nihilistic belief that you must gird yourself to resist, without even considering any other possibilities.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 07:50:05 PM by jaimehlers »
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #282 on: October 21, 2011, 09:31:23 PM »
Luther  explained it in that way : "I am not able  to believe   in Jesus Christ through my own strength , or come to Him."

Now whatever made you think I actually care what Luther said?

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If someone rejects God's grace, it is the fault of that person. But if someone accepts Jesus Christ, its entirely the merit of the holy spirit.

You can't have it both ways.  If the Holy Spook decides to knock a nonbeliever off his horse on the road to Damascus, the wee little imaginary ghostie also has to be responsible for failing to knock other nonbelievers off *their* horses.

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Have you read the bible ?

Yes.  Multiple times.  The more I read it, the more evil I find in it.

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No one will be in hell who does not deserve to be there. God is loving (1 John 4:8), good (Psalm 145:9), and merciful (Ephesians 2:4).

Bullshit.  No one, and I do mean no living, thinking being in the entire universe, past present or future deserves hell.  No exceptions.

If your god created a place of eternal punishment, it is evil.  Saying "God is good" over and over again just makes you look like a heartless idiot.  You should be fucking ashamed of yourself for blaming the victims of your imaginary friend, instead of having the balls to stand up and challenge the unconscionable things you have been taught as "truth."

May you have nightmares of your own loved ones suffering in your imaginary friend's "just" torture chamber, over and over again, until such time as you wake up with your faith completely gone.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #283 on: October 21, 2011, 09:34:08 PM »
Just for asserting that everyone deserves hell, even sweet little grannies, mentally handicapped people and incredibly patient atheists....

I hereby cast my vote for the swift kick to the junk. :police:

Hang on a sec; let Me get My steel-toed work shoes.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #284 on: October 21, 2011, 10:24:55 PM »
Quote
No God, no moral standard, whatever we do, is ok. If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.  All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.

Jeepers, if I had a quarter every time a christian talked about rapng babies being ok without their magic sky friend. What is it with you people and baby rape?

Do you just sit at home and think to yourself, "Man! I would love to rape some babies right now, but jesus wouldn't like that, so I'm just going to go on the internet and tell people they will suffer an eternity of torture for not thinking the same things are true as I do."

Whatever keeps you away from kids, I guess.

 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #285 on: October 22, 2011, 12:05:25 AM »
Quote
No God, no moral standard, whatever we do, is ok. If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.  All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.

Jeepers, if I had a quarter every time a christian talked about rapng babies being ok without their magic sky friend. What is it with you people and baby rape?

Do you just sit at home and think to yourself, "Man! I would love to rape some babies right now, but jesus wouldn't like that, so I'm just going to go on the internet and tell people they will suffer an eternity of torture for not thinking the same things are true as I do."

Whatever keeps you away from kids, I guess.
they raped and murdered non christians at the order of God himself,why would raping babies bother God?
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Offline plethora

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #286 on: October 22, 2011, 03:55:53 AM »
you are right,  people which cannot be held aknowledgeable for what they do, cannot either be charged for wrong doings. And certainly God will not do so. Nowhere the bible says God will send children and mentally ill people to hell.

Nobody deserves hell. To be tortured forever is a grossly disproportionate punishment for any crime. Not even Hitler deserves eternal torture. His crimes were henious, but they were finite. Finite crimes don't deserve infinite punishment.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #287 on: October 22, 2011, 05:01:57 AM »
you are right,  people which cannot be held aknowledgeable for what they do, cannot either be charged for wrong doings. And certainly God will not do so.


Plethora, Astreja, I'm with you 100%.  Punishment may indeed be deserved for Earthly crimes (though I categorically refuse to accept that "non believing in something" can in any way shape or form be considered a crime).  But eternal punishment?  No way.  That's the preserve of the utterly amoral, heartless, monster that is god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #288 on: October 22, 2011, 07:14:56 AM »
Spiritual things must be understood spiritually........

What is a "spiritual thing"?  "Things" are made of matter, so when you say "spiritual thing", what I hear is something like "meat-eating vegetarian" or "violent pacifist".  It doesn't make any sense.

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Rejecting God, and God's offered grace, is a  limitless, unquantifiable sin and offence.

Atheists, most of them, will be more than happy to accept "God and God's offered grace" once given sufficient evidence that he actually exists.  So far, we haven't seen it.

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That's why we should think before we die, where we do want to spend our eternity.

Another evidence issue, and this one more problematic.  Not only do we have no evidence that an afterlife exists, we also have overwhelming evidence that it does not.  All the scientific evidence in this area leads to one conclusion: consciousness is brain activity.  That being the case, consciousness ceases with death.

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The bible does not tell about a second chance, after death.

Which is yet another way it is unjust.  It expects us to make such a huge decision without giving us nearly enough evidence as to what we should decide.  We only get the proof after it's too late for us to change our minds.  Or to share the proof with anyone else, for that matter, which I for one would certainly want to do.

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God is  compassionate, and he is just enough to give every human being a fair chance to find salvation.

Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but by him.  Doesn't that mean that the baby who dies in childbirth is condemned to hell?  How is that compassionate or just?

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You don't understand the holyness of God

Probably because it doesn't exist.

Most of the atheists here are former believers.  One of the problems that many of them had was that, in reading the bible, they came to the very uneasy realization that their ethics were of a much higher standard than those of  this supposedly all-loving being.  Seeing that that was contradictory was one of the things that led them to lose their faith.

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and that if someone wants to be saved by good deeds, he must live a perfect life.

Says who?  Why isn't "good enough" good enough?


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But there will be differences of glory , for the ones that lived a life more acording to Gods will, than others.

This is a new one on me.  Where does the Bible say this?

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The alternative is just to let people sin the way they want ,and to let them go  with it, without reward whatsoever.

No, the alternative is to have a system of rewards and punishments appropriate to a person's behavior.  This is arguably the biggest problem I have with Christian doctrine: your ultimate fate is decided solely based on what you believe, not on anything you've done.  You can commit as many rapes, murders, and robberies as you like, and as long as you believe Jesus died for your sins, you're all set.  The atheist, however, is damned regardless of what he does, even if it's something like curing cancer.

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I think your worldview is unspeakably worse.

OK, let's go down your list, here...

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No God

If Yahweh actually exists, we're all in big trouble.  Rapists won't be sent to prison anymore, for example... they'll get to marry their victims after paying a fine to the woman's father.  Doing work on the Sabbath will be punishable by death -- with the additional difficulty that we're not sure which day that is, either.  Shall I go on?

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no reason of life

We create our own "reason of life".  Everyone does.  The only difference that atheists know that they're doing it.  Christians delude themselves into thinking that it's a supernatural being.

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everything ends when we die

I don't know how old you are, so this question might not impact you the way it should if you're very young, but I'll ask it anyway.  Take a good look back on your life, everything you've experienced, good, bad, all of it, then ask yourself, very honestly: Would you want to live forever?

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everyone can do whatever he wants, and will never be charged

Again, it's Christians who believe this, not atheists.  You will find very, very few atheists, if indeed any at all, who believe that crime should go unpunished.  Christians, conversely, believe that behavior is completely irrelevant.

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......and who does good things, like give its life for others, will not be rewarded either.

Oh, right.  Like the Nobel Prize, the Medal of Honor, the Pulitzer Prize, or the Presidential Medal of Freedom.  Hmm, now that I think about it, does the Catholic Church, or any other similar body, offer analogous rewards?  (That's not a snarky question, I'm honestly curious.)

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Such people would be amongst the most stupid on earth.

Research shows that atheists' IQs are actually slightly higher than religious people's.

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No God, no moral standard

You can have a moral standard without theistic belief.  In fact, most philosophers who have created ethical systems do not base them on religion.  And in any event, if you were honest about it, you'd admit that Yahweh's moral standard is not one you would want to have to follow.  He prescribes the death penalty for pretty much everything except jaywalking.

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whatever we do, is ok.

Again: it's Christians who believe this, not atheists.  I think you may be projecting.

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If i think to rape a small baby, kill  it, and think that is perfectly fine, then there is no higher moral entity to tell me that is wrong, and charge me.

I don't know about the rape part, but as far as killing children goes -- Yahweh does not tell you that it is wrong.  Far from it.

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock."  --Psalm 137:9

So what are you waiting for?  Head over to your local elementary school and start cracking skulls!

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All depends entirely on what we think is right, and what is wrong.

Yes, as a matter of fact, it does.  And a good thing, too.  Yahweh's moral standards are appalling.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline ungod

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #289 on: October 22, 2011, 07:33:18 AM »

Luther  explained it in that way : "I am not able  to believe   in Jesus Christ through my own strength , or come to Him." And the Scripture, the Word of God says, and assured us that we all are without distinction, by nature spiritually blind, deaf, dead, why, are hostile to God.

Aaah, Luther - the nice, tolerant Christian who wrote a book - "The Jews and their Lies"!

The apostle Paul writes:

Aaah, the "Apostle" Paul - the nice, Christian "family values" guy who recommends leaving your wife....

 ;D
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler