Author Topic: The big bang theory is bs!  (Read 19000 times)

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Offline Rustybeatz

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #232 on: October 20, 2011, 05:31:22 PM »
What do you believe : would it be right, Gaddhafi, which died today, not to be brought to justice, to pay for all the crimes he commited to innocent people ? If God does not exist, he will not have been brought to trial,  everything ends today. He died. End of story. That is simply NOT right. If God however exists, he will become exactly what he deserves. Unfortunately not here on earth, but on the other side of reality..... I know, this is not a argument for Gods existence. But if you WISH God not to exist, then you are for injustice to prevail. Sad , sad....

But according to Christianity, he could accept Jesus just before he dies and he's saved from an eternal hell anyway so what does it matter.  Actually, God kind of screws up your argument since no "justice" will have been served if he gets saved just before death.  So in that regard, it's the same if there's a god or no god because he doesn't get "what he deserves".  Nice SPAG by the way, I like the way you already decided what god would do with him when he dies.  That's interesting.  Ok, that was my two cents, carry on please, this thread rocks.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #233 on: October 20, 2011, 05:53:02 PM »
what do you think i am here for ? Just to give you the chance to avoid that destiny........ If God does not exist, injustice definitively will prevail and win. What do you believe : would it be right, Gaddhafi, which died today, not to be brought to justice, to pay for all the crimes he commited to innocent people ? If God does not exist, he will not have been brought to trial,  everything ends today. He died. End of story. That is simply NOT right. If God however exists, he will become exactly what he deserves. Unfortunately not here on earth, but on the other side of reality..... I know, this is not a argument for Gods existence. But if you WISH God not to exist, then you are for injustice to prevail. Sad , sad....
This doesn't have any business in this thread, but since you said it, I think that it is appropriate to respond to it.

So.

Just what makes you think that self-righteous prattle like this is going to be convincing in the slightest?  Preaching about injustice as if the only way justice can be served is for God to exist so that people can be punished after they die.  And claiming that someone who doesn't believe in God wants there to be nothing but injustice.  Do you realize just how asinine you sound by saying things like that?

Justice isn't about giving people what they deserve.  If I pick up a gun and shoot someone because they deserve it, that is not justice.  Punishing people is itself not justice.  There are times that something like that is necessary, but justice is not about doing what's necessary, it's about doing what's right.  It is fundamentally about fairness.  And the fact is that fairness is not served by envisioning Ghadafi roasting in some kind of hell, especially now that he's dead.

Justice is about making it impossible for someone like Ghadafi to do - and to keep doing - what he did, not about punishing them after the fact.  The fact that Libyans rebelled against Ghadafi and ultimately made it impossible for him to hold onto power was justice.  But punishing him for it would have been vengeance.

The most important thing to remember about justice is that it is fundamentally about making it so that vengeance is not necessary.  And that aim can not be accomplished by punishment and vengeance, no matter that they might make people feel better.  Nor is it really accomplished by holding some horrible after-death fate over people's heads if they misbehave.  The best that can do is to terrify people into obedience, but that isn't justice either.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #234 on: October 20, 2011, 06:02:06 PM »
If its perfectly fine to you, and your ignorance satisfies you, keep it , and go on with it. One day you will know the truth. If you are wrong however, it might be too late to change opinion.....

This statement implies that you will be taking pleasure in knowing that we will be unforgivable and punished for all eternity while you enjoy eternal heavenly bliss.

For that ... get fucked, asshole.

what do you think i am here for ? Just to give you the chance to avoid that destiny........ If God does not exist, injustice definitively will prevail and win. What do you believe : would it be right, Gaddhafi, which died today, not to be brought to justice, to pay for all the crimes he commited to innocent people ? If God does not exist, he will not have been brought to trial,  everything ends today. He died. End of story. That is simply NOT right. If God however exists, he will become exactly what he deserves. Unfortunately not here on earth, but on the other side of reality..... I know, this is not a argument for Gods existence. But if you WISH God not to exist, then you are for injustice to prevail. Sad , sad....

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. God exists because, well, he just has to, or life is so effin' unfair! There has to be some Clint Eastwood character from Hang 'Em High at the end of everything or else the bad guys get away and, and, that is not right! Well, kids have to come to terms with there not being any Santa, and there is is no angel who will put their divorced parents back together and when Rover got hit by a car he is not coming back.

Adults have to come to terms with the fact that amputees don't grow back their legs and the person you love may become an alcoholic and the boss is a racist who won't promote you and the bank may foreclose on your house and you may live in the richest country in the world without universal health insurance.

The world is not perfect-- there are earthquakes and floods and wildfires and fatal diseases and accidents. Humans are not perfect--some people hurt others and steal and lie and rape and kill. We can try to make things just and fair but there is going to be a lot of crap that nobody can fix. That is reality, babycakes.

You can either lie down and cry about it. Or you can try to do something to help make the world better-- join Amnesty International or become a doctor who treats amputees or donate money to disaster relief or work with at-risk youth so they don't all become thugs.

Or you can pretend that Santa or Clint Eastwood or Wonder Woman will take care of it. Or you can decide that there is a supernatural invisible being who will make everything aw bedda.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #235 on: October 20, 2011, 06:02:26 PM »
But according to Christianity, he could accept Jesus just before he dies and he's saved from an eternal hell anyway so what does it matter.

It matters in the sense that there was punishment, and Jesus paid for it. Otherwise, evil simply won.


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  Actually, God kind of screws up your argument since no "justice" will have been served if he gets saved just before death.  So in that regard, it's the same if there's a god or no god because he doesn't get "what he deserves".

We ALL deserve hell......


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #236 on: October 20, 2011, 06:09:32 PM »
present a better explanation.

Whether the big bang was caused or uncaused is currently unknown.

When something is unknown, it means we don't have an explanation for it.

... and "we" includes you.

You don't get to pull 'explanations' out of your ass and expect everyone to just accept them without evidence.

If the universe had a beginning, and all scientific evidence points toward that direction, then it must have had a cause. From absolutely nothing, nothing derives.
The universe might have had a cause-- I don't think anyone here has a problem with that concept. Scientists are fascinated with finding things like that out and I for one love to hear about what they know. So far, the BBT seems to have the most concrete evidence.

The problem comes when you claim to know way more than any scientist about this possible cause: what that cause was, what its name is, what it thinks about shellfish and what it likes for human beings to do with their genitalia. When the only evidence you have for this knowledge is the same kind of ancient mythical story every other religion offers, why should we take you seriously?

i make my argument out of scientific evidence. i don't need the bible or any other religious book to do so. If science points toward a beginning of the universe, and time, space, and matter were created at the Big Bang, than it is logical and obvious, that the cause must be above these elements. So it must 

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Kalam-Cosmological-Argument-for-the-Existence-of-God-is-Sound/1/

 transcend space both matter and time to create both matter and time. It must also be changeless, since there was no time prior to the creation of the universe. Interestingly enough, this also lends credibility to the notion that the cause was personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect? It seems that the only way this could be possible is if the cause was a free agent who has the ability to effect a change; for if the cause of the universe was impersonal, then it would not have created. Finally, in order to create the universe ex nihilo, this cause must be enormously powerful, if not omnipotent.

Where is the scientific evidence that tells everyone that the cause of the universe is a living being with a name that sounds like someone yawning,  a self-centered and immature personality, a desire to impregnate virgin girls, a preference for causing water damage, an opinion on shellfish and an obsession with genitalia? How do you jump from the vaguely "mysterious free agent with incredible powers" to this specific "Slartibartfast guy floating on that cloud over there"?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #237 on: October 20, 2011, 06:11:52 PM »
Just what makes you think that self-righteous prattle

I am not better than anyone else. The difference between you and me is only, that i received grace and forgiveness upon my repentence and faith in Jesus Christ.



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like this is going to be convincing in the slightest?  Preaching about injustice as if the only way justice can be served is for God to exist so that people can be punished after they die.  And claiming that someone who doesn't believe in God wants there to be nothing but injustice.  Do you realize just how asinine you sound by saying things like that?

No , i don't. Please explain, how justice can be done, if God, and a judge of everything we have done here on earth, does not exist. Go ahead, please.

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Justice isn't about giving people what they deserve.

Morals are prescriptive, and its very well exactly about that.

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If I pick up a gun and shoot someone because they deserve it, that is not justice
.

Exactly. Because you are not authorized to do so. But God has the authority to judge our lives, because he is our creator.

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Punishing people is itself not justice.  There are times that something like that is necessary, but justice is not about doing what's necessary, it's about doing what's right.

Correct. And if God does not exist. Gaddhafi killed thousands of people, plundered his country, and got away with it. Thats NOT right.

 
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It is fundamentally about fairness.  And the fact is that fairness is not served by envisioning Ghadafi roasting in some kind of hell, especially now that he's dead.

Fair is that he is brought to trial, and becomes exactly what he deserves, for what  he did on earth. Its not right, that thousands suffered because of his evylness, and that he never has to suffer for what he did.

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Justice is about making it impossible for someone like Ghadafi to do - and to keep doing - what he did, not about punishing them after the fact.

Then freedom of choice is gone. Welcome to the robots.

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The fact that Libyans rebelled against Ghadafi and ultimately made it impossible for him to hold onto power was justice.  But punishing him for it would have been vengeance.

But that is what would be fair. If someone would rape and kill your doughter, and dies right afterwards doing it a silent, peaceful dead, what would you think ? was it fair ? was it right ? If God does not exist, exactly this happens, all the time.


Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #238 on: October 20, 2011, 06:13:57 PM »
Where is the scientific evidence that tells everyone that the cause of the universe is a living being with a name that sounds like someone yawning,  a self-centered and immature personality, a desire to impregnate virgin girls, a preference for causing water damage, an opinion on shellfish and an obsession with genitalia? How do you jump from the vaguely "mysterious free agent with incredible powers" to this specific "Slartibartfast guy floating on that cloud over there"?

Instead throw out your immature rants, how about think about how concience and information, which is a essentially other thing, than dead matter, can arise naturally, without God, from matter ?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #239 on: October 20, 2011, 06:18:34 PM »
But according to Christianity, he could accept Jesus just before he dies and he's saved from an eternal hell anyway so what does it matter.

It matters in the sense that there was punishment, and Jesus paid for it. Otherwise, evil simply won.


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  Actually, God kind of screws up your argument since no "justice" will have been served if he gets saved just before death.  So in that regard, it's the same if there's a god or no god because he doesn't get "what he deserves".

We ALL deserve hell......

Yeah, we hear that.  :)

We all deserve hell just because we were born. &)

Even little newborn girl babies and their cute older brothers and their doting grannies are the secret spawn of Satan and deserve nothing more than the fiery pit of all-consuming unending hellish torture. :o

Just because.  :?

But a few people will be able to escape this if they follow a few simple steps outlined in the world's most confusing and contradictory ancient text ever put together by a political committee and rewritten innumerable times by countless people with different translation skills.  :-\

Nice. 8)

And what is so attractive about this worldview again? :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #240 on: October 20, 2011, 06:22:23 PM »
Where is the scientific evidence that tells everyone that the cause of the universe is a living being with a name that sounds like someone yawning,  a self-centered and immature personality, a desire to impregnate virgin girls, a preference for causing water damage, an opinion on shellfish and an obsession with genitalia? How do you jump from the vaguely "mysterious free agent with incredible powers" to this specific "Slartibartfast guy floating on that cloud over there"?

Instead throw out your immature rants, how about think about how concience and information, which is a essentially other thing, than dead matter, can arise naturally, without God, from matter ?

I am not claiming to know the answer to this. You are. But you jump from describing some powerful natural force like electricity, to a supernatural living being with very specific characteristics, desires, requirements, statements, etc. It is like saying lightning is really a person named Zeus...... ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #241 on: October 20, 2011, 06:44:42 PM »
 1)Does Grace and forgivness give you the green light to still sin? 2)What does God have to do with justice if he is forgiving  to you for sins but not others? (Grace and forgivness remember)3) morals are exact,no grey area for theists 4) God authorized the killing of many people by believers for reasons you may care to explain to me.5) God both commanded  and killed many followers thant NOT right 6) Lots of children starve and suffer because of God's evilness 7)to be sinless your freedom of choice is gone 8) if you rape his daughter according to the bible you can marry her


 Godexists you are a MORON
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Offline jetson

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #242 on: October 20, 2011, 07:00:15 PM »


http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Kalam-Cosmological-Argument-for-the-Existence-of-God-is-Sound/1/

 transcend space both matter and time to create both matter and time. It must also be changeless, since there was no time prior to the creation of the universe. Interestingly enough, this also lends credibility to the notion that the cause was personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect? It seems that the only way this could be possible is if the cause was a free agent who has the ability to effect a change; for if the cause of the universe was impersonal, then it would not have created. Finally, in order to create the universe ex nihilo, this cause must be enormously powerful, if not omnipotent.

Godexists,

It appears that you are attempting to quote from the linked article, is that correct?  If so, please use the quoting feature, or set the quoted text in a different color so that members can distinguish between your words, and someone else's.

Thanks.

Offline Cyberia

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #243 on: October 20, 2011, 07:12:22 PM »
i make my argument out of scientific evidence. i don't need the bible or any other religious book to do so. If science points toward a beginning of the universe, and time, space, and matter were created at the Big Bang, than it is logical and obvious, that the cause must be above these elements. So it must 

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Kalam-Cosmological-Argument-for-the-Existence-of-God-is-Sound/1/

NO the Kalam argument is NOT sound.  Cause MUST come before effect.  You yourself acknowledge that time began at the BB, and then you insist that the universe MUST have a cause.

You are contradicting yourself while trying to dress yourself in the robes of logic and science. 

THERE CANNOT BE A "BEFORE" TIME!

Since a cause must precede effect, that logically and directly dictates the universe MUST be causeless.  MUST.  Since time BEGAN at the BB, no cause is necessary OR POSSIBLE.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is the flaw with the Kalam (aka: Cosmological Argument, aka: First Cause Argument)
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #244 on: October 20, 2011, 08:14:05 PM »
I am not better than anyone else. The difference between you and me is only, that i received grace and forgiveness upon my repentence and faith in Jesus Christ.
The fact that your self-righteousness comes from your humility doesn't make it any less self-righteous.

No , i don't. Please explain, how justice can be done, if God, and a judge of everything we have done here on earth, does not exist. Go ahead, please.
I already explained it in the post that you just got done responding to.  You have a very bad habit of going over people's posts, not to see if they're saying something you might not know or if they might actually have a point to what they're saying, but to argue with them and show that you have the right of things.  In fairness, this is hardly unique to you, and I think everyone does that sometimes.  The key is to know when you're doing it and when it's not appropriate.

As for explaining it again...let me turn your statement on its head to show you why that's such a flawed way to look at justice.  You are basically saying that justice cannot be done unless some all-powerful being who watches everything we do in life is standing by to punish people after they die for what they did in life.  Except, nobody can actually know that this is what's happening, which defeats the purpose of such a thing to begin with.  If people don't believe in it, what reason do they have to expect it to happen?  Or worse, if they stop believing in it, what reason do they have not to do it?

The most basic concept of justice is fairness.  Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...what one does to others will be done to them.  All of that is fundamentally about fairness, about trying to promote the fair treatment of other people.  Except that with Christianity, it's not about fairness.  It's about getting people to believe in Jesus as savior.  The idea, I suppose, is that if they believe their sins are forgiven, they'll have no reason not to treat other people well.  Except it doesn't work that way in the real world.  People who believe their sins are automatically forgiven, who believe they have a spot reserved for them in a heavenly paradise, have no incentive to promote real fairness in this life.  Indeed, they actually have an incentive to be unfair, because after all, they can just go back and ask for more forgiveness from Jesus.  So what if some other people get trampled under their unfairness?  Either those people believe, in which case they're destined for the same place, or they don't believe, in which case they're destined for some other place.  It stops being about promoting fairness, instead being about promoting belief.

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Justice isn't about giving people what they deserve.
Morals are prescriptive, and its very well exactly about that.
What makes you think that I didn't know that morals were prescriptive?  The fact that morals are prescriptive doesn't have anything to do with justice being about what someone deserves.  As I said, justice is fundamentally about fairness - everyone having access to the same opportunities for personal and societal growth, and keeping people from getting into some truly awful situations that they might not be able to help.

Exactly. Because you are not authorized to do so. But God has the authority to judge our lives, because he is our creator.
Oh?  So what if the person who shot some other person believed they had a mandate from God to do so?  How could you possibly gainsay them?  According to them, God delegated the authority to do so to them.

And in any case, I don't accept your contention.  The fact that someone has authority in something does not make what they do justice.  Indeed, the ways someone can abuse that authority are myriad, especially if they have nothing to keep them in check.  To put it another way, we can trust the authority that, say, judges in this country have, because those judges are accountable to something - Congress, the Constitution, and ultimately, the people.  So, who is God accountable to?

Correct. And if God does not exist. Gaddhafi killed thousands of people, plundered his country, and got away with it. Thats NOT right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ghaddafi die?  I fail to see how someone dying counts as "getting away with it".  I mean, if he'd escaped to some island country without an extradition treaty and got to enjoy a cushy retirement out of his ill-gotten gains, then yeah, I'd agree he "got away with it".  But he died after being overthrown from his power.  That's plenty of punishment, and we don't have to add imagined punishments[1] by some all-powerful being after the fact for there to be 'justice'.

Fair is that he is brought to trial, and becomes exactly what he deserves, for what  he did on earth. Its not right, that thousands suffered because of his evylness, and that he never has to suffer for what he did.
Understand this if you understand nothing else that I say; vengeance is not justice!  And when you start talking about someone 'deserving' to suffer because of suffering they inflicted on others, that's nothing but pure vengeance talking.  Certainly it would have been better if he'd been brought to trial, because if someone can flagrantly do evil, it's not justice.  But if you're putting someone on trial because you want to hurt them like they hurt other people, you aren't seeking justice.

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Justice is about making it impossible for someone like Ghadafi to do - and to keep doing - what he did, not about punishing them after the fact.
Then freedom of choice is gone. Welcome to the robots.
 1. And yes, they are imagined, because we've never had anyone observing these 'punishments' who could report back and let us know what they were like.
Not hardly.  Even freedom of choice can't justify allowing someone to do evil and continue doing evil.  And after-the-fact punishment is a really shoddy way to try to stop them and others from doing it.  No, the way to make that sort of thing impossible[2] is to remove any possible benefit from it.  And you don't do that by claiming that people go to some eternal punishment after death, because they still get the benefit from whatever they did in the meantime.

But that is what would be fair. If someone would rape and kill your doughter, and dies right afterwards doing it a silent, peaceful dead, what would you think ? was it fair ? was it right ? If God does not exist, exactly this happens, all the time.
Really?  Think about that for a moment.  If your God, the one who judges everyone does not exist, and thus death is oblivion, I think a "silent, peaceful" death would be no better than a violent one.  The rapist is dead regardless of the cause, and will stay dead, and didn't get away with anything.  So what would imagining him roasting in a fiery furnace, or otherwise being judged, accomplish?  It might make someone still alive feel better about it, but that's about it, and to be honest, I imagine keeping it in mind like that might actually make things worse for them in the long run.  I mean, every time they think about it, they're almost certainly going to remember the stuff that went with it.  No, I can't imagine that way of thinking being worth the cost of remembering why.
 2. Or perhaps undesirable.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #245 on: October 20, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »
Instead throw out your immature rants...
Hey, my irony meter exploded!
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #246 on: October 20, 2011, 10:38:53 PM »
there was never more evidence than before, that our universe had a beginning. therefore it must have had a cause.

I already said this isn't in debate.  What IS in debate is the cause.  Given that everything that exists in our universe can be traced back through an extremely long chain of natural events leading all the way back to the Big Bang, what makes you think that the circumstances surrounding the creation of our universe were NOT natural events? 

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, is the supernatural theory the most plausible one? No.  Not even close.  Why? Because the only evidence we can currently gather in any way, shape or form comes from THIS universe.

Non sequitur. Our very own universe shows us, that it had most probably a beginning. Therefore a cause.

How is this a non-sequitur?  The evidence from our universe is NATURAL.  Not supernatural.  If all the evidence we have is natural, then we have no evidence of the supernatural.  Therefore, the supernatural is the least plausible explanation, is it not?  Any alternate theory that uses a natural explanation has a major advantage over one that uses a supernatural one. 



ok. Fine tuned universe. Information in DNA. Morals. Religious experience. All point toward God.  :)

You put a smiley face at the end of this sentence as if these things bolster your argument.  They do not point to God.  There are natural explanations available which make the God theory completely obsolete for all of these.  1. The universe is not fine tuned for life.  Certain areas of this planet are friendly to certain forms of life. That is why you find those types of life there.  Not the other way around.  If you were to suddenly appear anywhere else in this universe besides the outer crust of a small rocky planet, third from the sun, you will die in an instant.  That's piss poor fine tuning.  2. Information in DNA is natural information.  3. Morality comes from evolution, culture and experiences, and 4. if you think religious experiences are evidence of god, then I point you to well over a billion muslims who would agree with you and say that their experiences are evidence of their god.  Try again.

everything outside this universe is by definition supernatural.

If that is what you are claiming, then we clearly differ in how we use that term. Perhaps we need to share our definitions. 

Where these universes exisiting eternally, or did they have a beginning ? And , what evidence is there to back up this possibility ?

I have precisely as much evidence as you do that God did it.  None.  I'm just writing it down.  Does that satisfy you?  I have no evidence to back up these possibilities.  I'm not trying to take a stance on it.  I am merely suggesting a few completely natural alternate possibilities among a trillion trillion possibilities that we might not even be able to think of right now.  If I wanted to go about taking a positive stance on the multiple universes thing, I would point to the massive egotistical logic of a lone man on a deserted island thinking he is the only man in the world.  Furthermore, I would say that yes, they had beginnings, just like ours did.  This is NOT a stance I am taking however... do you know why?  Because there is no evidence for it. It is the same problem you have with your Goddidit theory. 

any evidence ? and when did it start ? and what started it ?

See above. 

Instead throw out your immature rants, how about think about how concience and information, which is a essentially other thing, than dead matter, can arise naturally, without God, from matter ?

Classic Christian foolishness.  Here is the stance you are taking... "I don't understand how something happened, therefore the only possibility is God."  Do you not see the problems with this?  Just because we do not yet know every single detail about something, does not mean the only other possibility is the Christian God.  Jeesh.  Honestly, do you folks ever think before you write things out? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #247 on: October 20, 2011, 10:43:50 PM »

We all deserve hell just because we were born. &)

No, because we are sinners.

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Even little newborn girl babies and their cute older brothers and their doting grannies are the secret spawn of Satan and deserve nothing more than the fiery pit of all-consuming unending hellish torture. :o

little children do not sin............

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But a few people will be able to escape this if they follow a few simple steps outlined in the world's most confusing and contradictory ancient text ever put together by a political committee and rewritten innumerable times by countless people with different translation skills.  :-\

The message of the new testament is ONE, and very clear. Repent from your sins, and believe in Jesus Christ as lord and savior, and you'll be saved.

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And what is so attractive about this worldview again? :P

It brings justice to the world. In contrary, no God, evil wins. If God indeed does not exist, whatever you can expect from life, you can do it only now, and here. Then, the way of life which makes most sense, is to live a selfish egocentric life, and do whatever you want. Since , tomorrow, you'll be dead anyway.

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #248 on: October 20, 2011, 10:46:15 PM »
I am not claiming to know the answer to this.

Why not ? Isnt it more than clear, that from apples, strawberrys cannot arise ?



Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #249 on: October 20, 2011, 10:54:02 PM »
1)Does Grace and forgivness give you the green light to still sin?

The bible clearly says NO! But that does not mean, that christians still sin. But there is a change in attitude towards sin. We do not WANT to sin anymore, and are on a way of sanctification, where we leave behind us more and more, what is not good, and orient us towards the will of God.

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2)What does God have to do with justice if he is forgiving  to you for sins but not others?


I believe God gave his son Jesus Christ for forgiveness of all human kind. It depends now not more on God to forgive, but to us, to accept his offer of forgiving. He does not force his forgiveness upon us. We are free to decide, if we want to believe in him, and receive forgiveness, and eternal life, or not.

 
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God authorized the killing of many people by believers for reasons you may care to explain to me.

The killing of canaanites was a special event. Before God gave green light to the hebrews to kill the canaanites, God gave them over 400 years , to stop their practices of killing babies for their gods, and burning them alive. God did not want, these practices to contamine the hebrews, so he choose this solution. It might sound cruel and many do not comprehend it, but the hebrews left many canaanites alive, and the result was terrible. So sometimes, God alouds bad things to happen, to prevent us from worse things.


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Lots of children starve and suffer because of God's evilness

I would say, rather OUR evilness.

 
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Godexists you are a MORON

And you seem not to have enough brain to make your point, without adhom attack the other part......sad.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #250 on: October 20, 2011, 10:57:21 PM »


THERE CANNOT BE A "BEFORE" TIME!

correct. But there can be a BEYOND time. A timeless eternity.

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Since a cause must precede effect, that logically and directly dictates the universe MUST be causeless.

Can you explain how absolute nothing can cause something into existence ? the flaw of your argument is evident.



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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #251 on: October 20, 2011, 11:27:54 PM »
I am not better than anyone else. The difference between you and me is only, that i received grace and forgiveness upon my repentence and faith in Jesus Christ.
The fact that your self-righteousness comes from your humility doesn't make it any less self-righteous.

My salvation is a result entirely on what Jesus Christ did on the cross. My repentance and aknowledge of what Jesus did on the Cross, is a passive, not a active act.

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As for explaining it again...let me turn your statement on its head to show you why that's such a flawed way to look at justice.  You are basically saying that justice cannot be done unless some all-powerful being who watches everything we do in life is standing by to punish people after they die for what they did in life.  Except, nobody can actually know that this is what's happening, which defeats the purpose of such a thing to begin with.

Of course we can know it. Since God manifested himself to us through his word , the bible, and testified that there will be a final judgement, where each of our words will be judged.

 
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If people don't believe in it, what reason do they have to expect it to happen?

And who is to blame , if they do not believe it, and afterwards, it happens anyway ?



 
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Or worse, if they stop believing in it, what reason do they have not to do it?

Non, that for sure. Thats logical. But what is your point ?

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  Except that with Christianity, it's not about fairness.  It's about getting people to believe in Jesus as savior.

Justice and fairness is not directed only on a human level. Who sets the rules of the game, is the creator of the game. I believe God made human kind, so that we could interact with him, live to glorify him, to live upon his will, not a selfcentered life, but a God centered life, and as a consequence, love each other.  I believe, God in essence is love. The more we center our live to him, and live according to his will, the more WE are blessed , and happy. Its a constant sharing of one to the other. But we can have a relationship with God only, if we are pure and holy, as he is. But nobody of us is capable to live a perfect, holy, sinless life. The only way out was, God to send his son to die for us, and carry all our sins on the cross. As long as someone pays for sins, its fair.
The day, someone can do whatever, and is not charged, fairness ends.



 
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The idea, I suppose, is that if they believe their sins are forgiven, they'll have no reason not to treat other people well.  Except it doesn't work that way in the real world.  People who believe their sins are automatically forgiven, who believe they have a spot reserved for them in a heavenly paradise, have no incentive to promote real fairness in this life.

It seems you do not know the bible. There is a also a judgement of the ones, that accepted forgiveness. And we will be judged also according to what we did in this life. Who served well, will receive a higher prize, than the ones that did little here on earth.

 
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Indeed, they actually have an incentive to be unfair, because after all, they can just go back and ask for more forgiveness from Jesus.

the bible is clear, we were saved , not through good deeds, but to do good deeds. If someone does not show any change of life, its a sign that his conversion was not true.

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Oh?  So what if the person who shot some other person believed they had a mandate from God to do so?  How could you possibly gainsay them?  According to them, God delegated the authority to do so to them.

The quest is if God really asked them to do so......

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So, who is God accountable to?

to himself, since there is nobody above him.

 
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But he died after being overthrown from his power.  That's plenty of punishment

He did not suffer anything , and if there is nothing beside life here on earth, he is not suffering anything on the other side either. That is not just, compared to the thousands, which were imprisoned, tortured, and killed upon his command.

Understand this if you understand nothing else that I say; vengeance is not justice!  And when you start talking about someone 'deserving' to suffer because of suffering they inflicted on others, that's nothing but pure vengeance talking.

Eye for eye is not just ?

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Not hardly.  Even freedom of choice can't justify allowing someone to do evil and continue doing evil.  And after-the-fact punishment is a really shoddy way to try to stop them and others from doing it.

Its not siimply and only about making someone stop doing evil. If Hitler repent, and changed his mind in 1945, after 50 million deads, and said : holy shit. I made some tremendous bad things. Ill stop continuing promoting war. And no consequence at all would apply. Would that be right ?

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Really?  Think about that for a moment.  If your God, the one who judges everyone does not exist, and thus death is oblivion, I think a "silent, peaceful" death would be no better than a violent one.  The rapist is dead regardless of the cause, and will stay dead, and didn't get away with anything.  So what would imagining him roasting in a fiery furnace, or otherwise being judged, accomplish?

justice. He would pay for the evil done. Sins are primarly directed against God, and then against other people.


Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #252 on: October 21, 2011, 12:01:09 AM »
My salvation is a result entirely on what Jesus Christ did on the cross. My repentance and aknowledge of what Jesus did on the Cross, is a passive, not a active act.

If you acknowledge such a thing, mythical or not, it automatically becomes active by the act of your acknowledging it.  It is no longer passive, and it cannot be made so.

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Since God manifested himself to us through his word , the bible, and testified that there will be a final judgement, where each of our words will be judged.

I think the Bible is much too stupid and vicious-minded a book to be the work of a real god (assuming any such thing as a 'real god' exists).

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I believe, God in essence is love. The more we center our live to him, and live according to his will, the more WE are blessed , and happy. Its a constant sharing of one to the other. But we can have a relationship with God only, if we are pure and holy, as he is.

Then your alleged god's love is conditional.

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The day, someone can do whatever, and is not charged, fairness ends.

If you believe in an eternal hell, in which sentient beings are made to experience horrific torment for eternity, then fairness is impossible.  Absolutely fucking impossible.  Never-ending pain for even one being, no matter how terrible the crimes he or she committed in a finite lifetime, negates for all time the fairness and goodness of whatever being created and maintains the torture chamber.

It is unspeakably shameful to worship such a god.  I would choose hell a million times over before I would praise the creator of the place.

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Sins are primarly directed against God, and then against other people.

Nonsense.  Hypothetically, a truly powerful god cannot be injured, and a truly omniscient god would not be in the least bit surprised by -- Or offended by -- anything that happens in the timeline that it, itself created and maintains.

The myth of "sin" is just a convenient way to crap all over the good deeds that people do perform, and to bully them into the immoral act of letting "Jesus" take the fall for them.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #253 on: October 21, 2011, 12:02:40 AM »
Godexists
 
 You can choose NOT to sin,but you don't,why? Does believing in Jesus absolve you of sin? or can God still judge you and send you to hell?Does a priest who believes in Jesus still go to heaven if he fucks little boys? see he can choose not to sin or he can sin,yet still believe in Jesus,can God still send the priest to hell?

2) Can you still do what you want,and go to heaven with just belief? you said if you accept the terms ,what will God decide or you?

God did not just have his followers kill one group of people ....or did his "people" just decide to kill the rest,without the permission of God?

 What do people with "freewill" not to share food have to do with God hating minorities? not many white people starve
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #254 on: October 21, 2011, 12:05:24 AM »
 GE is Hitler in heaven? He was a christian,he believed he was doing God's work......and for all we know he accepted Jesus as Lord.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline pingnak

Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #255 on: October 21, 2011, 12:20:52 AM »
Yeah, that TV show is such BS.  Nerds like those portrayed on the show are practically emitting an anti-female force field. 


Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #256 on: October 21, 2011, 12:25:33 AM »
Yeah, that TV show is such BS.  Nerds like those portrayed on the show are practically emitting an anti-female force field.

*knock knock knock* Pingnak!  ;D
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #257 on: October 21, 2011, 12:26:36 AM »
GE is Hitler in heaven? He was a christian,he believed he was doing God's work......and for all we know he accepted Jesus as Lord.

He'd be in great company. Just look at all the death row inmates who turn to Jesus. Serial rapists, pedophiles, murderers, cannibals... The worst scum of the earth. They can't get forgiveness from anyone living, they can't forgive themselves... And they've got nothing but time to study their bible.

Christianity is practically tailor-made for hopeless f**k ups to feel good about themselves. That's like half the draw to the people outside the cult. It's also the reason why so many Born-Agains are such jaw-droppingly scummy, creepy douchebags.

Gotta say though, I'd be pretty upset if I was a "good Christian", died, went to heaven, and ran into the guy who raped, murdered, and ate my 10 year old daughter.

I think I might even take issue with the guy who set up such dumbass rules, since I'm sitting in between Son of Sam and Jeffrey Dahmer while Ghandi and Norman Borlaugh are roasting in hellfire for all eternity.

I'm just weird like that though.  :-\ 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:33:22 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #258 on: October 21, 2011, 12:30:34 AM »
Can you explain how absolute nothing can cause something into existence?

I've got a better question.  How can a god do anything without energy already existing?

Creation ex nihilo is, at its root, a contradiction in terms because creation requires energy and energy is closely allied with matter.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #259 on: October 21, 2011, 12:42:48 AM »
Can you explain how absolute nothing can cause something into existence?

Why SURE I can. Magic! Magic did it! See, there was a big giant space wizard who used his magical super powers to create all the cosmos... All the hundreds of billions of galaxies and hundreds of billions of star systems in those galaxies...

All done with magic. Sim sim sala-bim! Pretty cool, huh? Then he wrote a book about some goats n' shit. So are we done here? We can totally stop looking for answers now, right?

'Cos the space wizard didn't come from nothing 'cos he didn't have to 'cos he's magic and he's exempt from the rules just 'cos, so it all works out.
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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #260 on: October 21, 2011, 06:03:16 AM »
We ALL deserve hell......

This is the most despicable part of your beliefs. It's a hateful concept. A self-loathing attitude towards one's self and all of humanity.

You are beyond help. You have my pity.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.