Author Topic: Please Help [#954]  (Read 619 times)

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Offline DL

Please Help [#954]
« on: January 21, 2009, 07:15:26 PM »

I sent my uncle who is a preacher your exelent video on why do intelligent Christians disobay Jesus.

He sent me this response. How should I respond to him?

Thanks

[name]

In terms of the military and loving your enemies, Jesus definately gave ethical guidelines that should be followed on a 'private level' and others that function on a public level. This is inferred from his directives to those in the military when he states that they should be content with their wages; hence, serving in the military is honorable and just. On the hand, on a personal, non-state level, Jesus instructs us to turn the other check; love those who hate you. These commands are not easy. They guide us to fight for the truth that no matter how evil people become, they in fact are 'in the image and likeness of God' and they deserve respect and honor. We must struggle 'to view' them in this light. Secondly, we are to 'do good' to them; acts of kindness which reflect goodwill. So basically your video guy CONFLATES two separate spheres which are laid out in the Scriptures; hence, his grand claim is without merit. Sad thing is, since he appears intelligent, he probably knows this himself, but refuses to acknowledge such.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 07:24:16 PM »
AKA "The way I interpret the bible, because of the culture I was born and raised in, is the only correct way, and this guy is wrong because he disagrees with me"

Here's a response on his level "nuh-uh".

Also, ask him why jesus wants us to turn the other "check".
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline singlecrochet

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 07:32:42 PM »
This is "inferred"?

Exactly as Ambassador Pony is saying.  He is merely interpreting the bible based on how HE was instructed and no other interpretation could possibly be correct according to his narrow-minded view.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 07:43:40 PM »

I sent my uncle who is a preacher your exelent video on why do intelligent Christians disobay Jesus.

He sent me this response. How should I respond to him?

I'll give it a try.  No promises though!

Thanks

No problem.  Join the forums if you want.  If not, here are some other places and groups that might interest you;

* Ex-Christian - "This site is designed with the intention of encouraging ex-Christians, former Christians, de-converting Christians and other non-believers in the decision to live life based on rational thought rather than religious mythology."

  http://exchristian.net

* The WWGHA and GII web sites have other resources beyond the forums;

  Blog: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog
  Book: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm
  50 (51, 52, ...) simple proofs: http://godisimaginary.com


* YouTube Video channels;

  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2078


* Atheism blogs;

  http://planetatheism.com


* TV programs;

  http://www.atheist-experience.com -- TV program out of Austin TX with many back episodes


* Audio;

I've got a boatload of podcasts/RSS feeds if you listen to that stuff.  Let me know what you're interested in, and I'll be glad to offer recommendations.



Now, on to your uncle's comments...

Quote
In terms of the military and loving your enemies, Jesus definately gave ethical guidelines that should be followed on a 'private level' and others that function on a public level. This is inferred from his directives to those in the military when he states that they should be content with their wages; hence, serving in the military is honorable and just. On the hand, on a personal, non-state level, Jesus instructs us to turn the other check; love those who hate you.

That's a novel explanation.  

Here's my reply.  When people die in wars it's not some incorporeal 'state' that kills them, it is people; it is individuals.  If he doesn't think that is the case, ask him if the war crimes tribunals are unBiblical if not unethical.  

Should all things that happen in war be blameless and followed without moral reflection?  Does that extend to any orders given by the state?

Quote
These commands are not easy. They guide us to fight for the truth that no matter how evil people become, they in fact are 'in the image and likeness of God' and they deserve respect and honor. We must struggle 'to view' them in this light. Secondly, we are to 'do good' to them; acts of kindness which reflect goodwill. So basically your video guy CONFLATES two separate spheres which are laid out in the Scriptures; hence, his grand claim is without merit. Sad thing is, since he appears intelligent, he probably knows this himself, but refuses to acknowledge such.

Let me know if your uncle has a reply to my comments.  He seems smart.  I'd change my mind if he came up with something that was solid ethically as well as logically.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Irish

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
When you cut out the crap you see this that begins it all.

This is inferred from his directives

In other words, "My interpretation of the Bible based upon what I want to see in the world is this..."

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Offline StPatrick

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 08:22:14 PM »
Pony pretty well nailed it.

If you like, you can drop by the forum so we can discuss this further.
If we come together and do not fight over religion, class and borders then we hold the key to a peaceful world. There are two possible futures in store; either a March of power and greed or a March of a unified human race.

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 12:47:25 AM »
Thanks for the help I sent him your response, we have had some long debates about religion. I will let you know his response.

My uncle Nate became a preacher in 1972, he got busted selling pot at the High School to his friends, the judge gave him an option of six years in prison, or four years in a missionary school. Either way you come out a Christian.

I was sent to live with my uncles Nate 14, and Lance 16, when I was 12. My step mother kicked my out of the house because I borrowed her haunted house album without asking, for a haunted house my friends an I were making for Halloween.

So I was living with my Grand father and my uncles who were more like brothers. Lance was nice to me and loved me while Nate tollerated me and considered me a nuisance.

Before Nate got busted, Lance came home one night after drinking and getting caught in the back of his Bronco with his girlfriend. Lance had Asama and when he got home at 1 AM. Lances Doctor (the one who caught him small town, Hot Springs SD) called my Grandfather and told him what was up. Lance walked in and Grandpa started yelling at him, and that triggered Lance to have an Asama attack. Lance walked into the bathroom to try to clear it up with some water and an inhaler, however he had been drinking and smoking pot with his girlfriend and that made things worse. He passed out in the bathroom because he could not breath. Gram pa was yelling to Nate to wake up and help him with Lance to get him to the car and to the hospital.
Nate did not wake up, I did and I ran into the bathroom and lifted Lance with my Grandfather and we got him into the car. Gram pa told me to run inside and call the hospital and tell them he was on the way. I was hysterical, I called the hospital and started praying to god, I loved Lance with all my hart and I would do anything to bring him back. When my grandfather came home and sat next to me on the couch, I was sure that my prayers were answered and Lance was going to be OK. Gram pa told me that they kept Lance alive for thirty minutes and then he died. That was the exact second I lost my religion.

Here it is 36 years later, and there is not a day that I don't think about Lance. He had everything going for him. He was an straight A student all the way threw High School, he was good tall and extremely good looking and had the most beautiful blond in town for his girlfriend. He was only 16 years old.

On the other hand Nate was short with glasses, and buck teeth.

Well to make a long story short, from that day forward I resented being lied to about God, I screamed at the preacher at the funeral to shove his God and Jesus bullshit up his ass and that there was no god. Then I walked away home from the funeral crying.

Latter in life, Nate and I grew closer together and I love him very much, even though we do not agree about religion.

He went on to missionary school and became a preacher, while I have lived a unique life feeling a bit isolated. I find it very hard to build relationships with others who believe as I do. Even my wife is an devout Christian. I truly feel I live in an insane world.

To this day I have tried my hardest to help those I love to see life on a Humanitarian level. I was only able to reach my step daughter out of the 100 or so I have approached. I have always lived withthe feeling of indifference to society. I just do not fit in to the social majority of our society.

I feel that I am fortunate to lived my life so far as a free thinker to some degree, and yet it has been a burdon, I feel I am under siege by the religious fundamentalist, and there is little hope for those who are infected with the virus that is religion.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Please Help [#954]
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 04:10:25 PM »

I sent my uncle who is a preacher your exelent video on why do intelligent Christians disobay Jesus.
He sent me this response. How should I respond to him?
Thanks
[name]

In terms of the military and loving your enemies, Jesus definately gave ethical guidelines that should be followed on a 'private level' and others that function on a public level. This is inferred from his directives to those in the military when he states that they should be content with their wages; hence, serving in the military is honorable and just. On the hand, on a personal, non-state level, Jesus instructs us to turn the other check; love those who hate you. These commands are not easy. They guide us to fight for the truth that no matter how evil people become, they in fact are 'in the image and likeness of God' and they deserve respect and honor. We must struggle 'to view' them in this light. Secondly, we are to 'do good' to them; acts of kindness which reflect goodwill. So basically your video guy CONFLATES two separate spheres which are laid out in the Scriptures; hence, his grand claim is without merit. Sad thing is, since he appears intelligent, he probably knows this himself, but refuses to acknowledge such.

I would ask him what verses said things were private and public. 

I would also ask him which bible he got his claims of soliders from

NIV 
Quote
12Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?"

 13"Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. 14Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay."

Young's Literal Translation
Quote
12And there came also tax-gatherers to be baptised, and they said unto him, `Teacher, what shall we do?'  13and he said unto them, `Exact no more than that directed you.' 14And questioning him also were those warring, saying, `And we, what shall we do?' and he said unto them, `Do violence to no one, nor accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.'

KJV
Quote
12Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.  14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
  Seems that yet again a Christian has no idea what the Bible really says.  No suprise there.

I would also ask him why the Bible says that one should obey public officials without question since they were put in their places by God.  Should no one have questioned Stalin?  Hitler?  Pol Pot? 
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