Author Topic: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]  (Read 2442 times)

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Offline none

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2009, 09:23:12 PM »
Hermes is a forum contributor.

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2009, 09:31:03 PM »
So God decided to pay you a visit and give you insight into perfect love...yet 1000s of children get to starve to death in Africa because God was to busy helping you find yourself.  This God is one funny guy.

There is nothing godlike going on in the way we are dealing with world hunger.  The excess food Americans enjoy daily and the corporate food chains top goal of profit over alleviating suffering due to starvation is something only selfish persons are capable of.  Greed is on the other end of the spectrum from what I experienced and its a top priority to help any and every single person in this lifetime I am capable of.  I feel an agonizing pain in my heart when I see any living being suffer and I know this world is filled with excruciating misery by the poor and homeless.  It is a top goal I will never feel isn't worthy of my time and effort

Offline gold_digging_ants

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2009, 09:31:39 PM »
If she's not a Christian I'm not sure it's terribly applicable, but let me find it and I'll put it here.  (Just taken from the last time he posted it, no significance attached to the instance I'm quoting)



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

As a responsible person, someone who cares about the world and the future of humanity, I have to act.  Even if it is not my fault that these Christians are doing harm, it is my responsibility to do something positive.  You can consider it a moral obligation.  If that means that I have to hold up a mirror so that my fellow humans look at what they believe, then I'll take that modest step.  Maybe that will be enough to drain the air out of some of those bad ideas?

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
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Offline none

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2009, 09:43:43 PM »
Kaseypink123, you believe there is a god that is real beyond that which is thought and souls exist or at least one soul exists, right?
am I ignorant to this fact that god exists outside the parameters of thought and souls or at least on soul exists?
now factor in all who believe as you that there is a god and soul or souls and describe how cordial a world I live in, let alone all the doctrine that accompanies these others (which you may or may not subsrcibe to).
and finally, what makes your version accurate?


Offline Airyaman

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2009, 09:50:00 PM »
So, if you are UU, why bother with Jesus?
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2009, 09:58:08 PM »
Kaseypink123, you believe there is a god that is real beyond that which is thought and souls exist or at least one soul exists, right?
am I ignorant to this fact that god exists outside the parameters of thought and souls or at least on soul exists?
now factor in all who believe as you that there is a god and soul or souls and describe how cordial a world I live in, let alone all the doctrine that accompanies these others (which you may or may not subsrcibe to).
and finally, what makes your version accurate?

None,
Thinking doesn't have as much to do with my certainty as does feeling......I felt this and witnessed it and nothing else could have shook me from my firmly planted foundation I was conditionally certain of that God didn't exist and my life would end for good after my death here in this world.  After I witnessed what I did back in September I am unconditionally certain, no blind faith involved, that God does exist and he is 100% forgiving because (just taking a guess) I probably told God what a F*kn jerk he/she/it was and that he/she/it should f*ck off, etc 20+ times before I understood why our pain and suffering in this temporary life on Earth is part of a never ending journey to become something better.  We aren't these physical bodies, the voice/thinking in your head or solely the heart, our feeling center in our trunk, we are something greater than all of it and we are part of God.  We are like cells, pieces of light reflecting the whole, or something autonomous in a connected being that IS life.   Life is always going to go on and growth will always take place and our awareness is the piece that is me/you

I don't think I would have believed that a year ago so I can't expect anyone else to unless they experience it for themselves........I wish I could answer questions better...maybe I could if specific and smaller questions were asked, or at least my answers may be better understood

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2009, 10:11:37 PM »
So, if you are UU, why bother with Jesus?

After what happened in Sept. I decided to go back and read the bible.  I have only gotten through half of it, and it is so peculiar how the exact same words I dismissed before as fairy tales have a new meaning and put into my new perspective I believe the words of Jesus Christ.  One of the books, Timothy, I didn't like even a bit.  SO...I feel that the translators of God's word and parts of the book that weren't the words of Jesus Christ sometimes have to be viewed as murky interpretations of a divine influence.  Man is imperfect so parts of the Bible are not always as truly spoken as God would have stated.  Also, the new testament seems to be written to adolescents whereas the old testament seems to be written for a child like audience.  Kind of like how you will tell your kids not to take candy from strangers because you can't trust strangers instead of telling them that some strangers you can trust and accept candy from but others might hurt you, and the only way you can tell is if you know them well enough not to fear they might poison you or kidnap you. 
The 'older' our species gets the more God will level with us I hypothesize

Offline none

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2009, 10:12:10 PM »
ok so you felt something and attribute it to god, but expressed the feeling was love for yourself.
the whole issue of free will given by god was introduced in the next sentence.
if you subscribe to free will and tie that into a feeling then you are not thinking rationally about it you are feeling it, which I really don't care about truthfully.
now you testify you are a christian or at least believe there is a jesus that lived as to what is in the bible.
this is getting better by the moment.
so you go around basing this idea of god on feeling but jesus on reasoned thought as presented by the bible?
wouldn't the whole deck of cards come to a stand still when you realize that either a feeling is more valid than reasoned thought?
what makes your version of "I experienced a feeling" more valid than another person who believes god exists due to reasoned argument as an expression of thought?
and finally, the story of jesus is just a story.
check this out for refrence (I don't expect you to read every response) http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3048.0
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:14:14 PM by none »

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2009, 10:20:34 PM »
I feel that all of you are so unsatisfied with Christianity as we know it because you are more developed, more mature spiritually than how the bible was written 2000 years ago.  We have grown and its time to learn a larger chunk of whats really going on...thats how it was for me at least. 

Does any person reading this have some of the questions I had? 
1.  Why would native americans be damned eternally to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ and asking for forgiveness of their sins?

2.  Why do babies get to go to heaven and adults enduring years of earthly abuse have to jump through hoops to earn a ticket to heaven?

3.  Why do Christians, Muslims, any other religious sect kill in wars in order to please God?

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 10:27:20 PM »
ok so you felt something and attribute it to god, but expressed the feeling was love for yourself.
the whole issue of free will given by god was introduced in the next sentence.
if you subscribe to free will and tie that into a feeling then you are not thinking rationally about it you are feeling it, which I really don't care about truthfully.
now you testify you are a christian or at least believe there is a jesus that lived as to what is in the bible.
this is getting better by the moment.
so you go around basing this idea of god on feeling but jesus on reasoned thought as presented by the bible?
wouldn't the whole deck of cards come to a stand still when you realize that either a feeling is more valid than reasoned thought?
what makes your version of "I experienced a feeling" more valid than another person who believes god exists due to reasoned argument as an expression of thought?
and finally, the story of jesus is just a story.
check this out for refrence (I don't expect you to read every response) http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=3048.0

None,
Experiencing something firsthand and feeling it firsthand will always carry more weight than thinking something.  Experiencing/feeling is more real than what a mind is trained/reasoned to believe and feelings cannot lie

Offline gold_digging_ants

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 10:28:44 PM »
These were among my questions, and the kinds of questions I asked, during the period in which I deconverted (about 3 years).  My question now is "why do people feel they need to believe this stuff in the 21st century?"
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Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 10:30:04 PM »
I feel that blind faith in anything is very dangerous.  Experiencing something that you feel and trust with unconditional certainty is discernment

Offline none

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 10:36:13 PM »
so regardless what you learn here tonight, your feelings dictate your decisions.
are you are an emotional basket case or do you feelings stay pretty consistnent.
you were chastising something imaginary and finally succumbed to the fact that chastising the imaginary wasn't getting you anywhere and decided to love yourself (obviously not otherwise you would have remained grouchy with god).
either way, its your story, you tell it, but don't expect me to feel what you feel or reason that your feelings dictate the universe.
the whole issue sounds kinda egocentric to me.

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2009, 10:52:56 PM »
none,
my feelings are very consistent

egocentric only in the way that self contains ego but selfless in my unity with all beings in my desire to find unconditional love and trust

It takes your heart and your awareness in thought and ideas to find your true self...ego has little to do with it and in most cases may block self discovery I believe

 I am so interested in this thread and any other one like it because so many others discussing on sites like these are close to a higher understanding of our purpose as a growing species.  Humans are advancing aka growing up and learning  is at a pivotal moment in our lives.
I feel you are spiritually advanced like everyone else finding discrepencies among current Christian fallicies.

Offline none

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 10:57:17 PM »
and christian fallacies include the belief of a god existing outside the paramters of thought, let alone a jesus figure that actually lived?

Offline Hermes

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2009, 09:49:14 PM »
Kaseypink123, have you performed meditation?

Part of what you describe as an experience is what appears when wakeful meditation is practiced.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Astreja

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2009, 11:40:23 PM »
www.myspace.com/goddesskasey
Oh my goodness, how can I even begin to explain my myspace url?  I opened my myspace account 3 years ago and I was trying to be cute and funny by setting my url as goddess kasey...and you can never change those lol

Hey, don't sweat it, Kasey. My blog is springygoddess.blogspot.com, and I take my alleged divinity very seriously. ;D

I do think that "spiritual experiences" are real.  Been there, done that, became one with the souvenir T-shirt.  I'm not convinced that such experiences point to eternal continuity of the self... My most dramatic experience convinced me that "eternity" is not a particularly good place to look for The Meaning of Life, so subsequently I've been looking closer to Right Now.
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Offline FaithAlone

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2009, 12:49:51 AM »
One thing I would like to throw out there:
No one here seems to be seeing miracles, only focusing on the bad things to make a point, and try to tear beliefs down.

You say God doesn't answer prayers, that kids are starving in Africa because of Him, people get sick, people are suffering... First off: Original Sin. If you all hate the struggling so much, the only relief you will ever achieve is in knowing Him. Besides... If there aren't illnesses and deaths, what would happen to our world? Everyone big on science here, calculate that out... No one would die. Overpopulation!
Also... You all blame God for problems while you sit here and do nothing about it. Many people blame God because we aren't big enough to admit that humans have flaws, we aren't perfect, and that things happen and it is our fault. That's why we have the freedom of choice. I have no doubt that God is looking at his suffering children and weeping because of their pain. He sends the Holy Spirit to work through us and to help them, to reach out, and to fix these problems! Instead we would rather sit on our high horse, say God doesn't exist, then say it's His fault there is suffering, and finally, not do anything at all about it.

Offline gold_digging_ants

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2009, 06:57:25 AM »
First off: Original Sin.

First off, barbaric, evil concept.  No civilised society punishes people for the actions of their parents.  Secondly, why should we believe what your book says?  What's the proof it has anything to do with reality?  There's less proof for your god than there is for gold digging ants in northern India, and there are no gold digging ants in northern India.

Also... You all blame God for problems while you sit here and do nothing about it. Many people blame God because we aren't big enough to admit that humans have flaws, we aren't perfect, and that things happen and it is our fault. That's why we have the freedom of choice. I have no doubt that God is looking at his suffering children and weeping because of their pain. He sends the Holy Spirit to work through us and to help them, to reach out, and to fix these problems! Instead we would rather sit on our high horse, say God doesn't exist, then say it's His fault there is suffering, and finally, not do anything at all about it.

I do plenty about it.  I give to charity, I donate blood, I raise awareness.  I do something palpable.  I don't sit and talk to myself and ask my bedroom walls to save the world.  I don't promote laws banning condom use in AIDS ridden areas.  I don't tell people they're sinful and deserve to die.  I don't take the money that others have donated to charity (for food, medicine, clean water), and siphon it off to tell people who are dying of hunger that they deserve it because an ancient book says so.

People aren't perfect.  I know I'm certainly not.  But I'm a saint compared to the fictional characters of Gawd, Jeebus, and the Holy Shit.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2009, 09:12:49 AM »
One thing I would like to throw out there:
No one here seems to be seeing miracles, only focusing on the bad things to make a point, and try to tear beliefs down.

You say God doesn't answer prayers, that kids are starving in Africa because of Him, people get sick, people are suffering...

Nope.  What the videos say, clearly, is that your religious book says that prayers will be answered.  What we observe in reality is that no amputees are ever healed -- well, not without other humans doing the hard work.

So, the most reasonable conclusion is that your religious book doesn't describe a real deity; that that deity does not exist.

Point being: Would you blame Santa for not bringing those kids in Africa food once a year?  Of course not.  What makes you think that your deity is any more credible?  We compare what it is said to do ... with what happens in reality.  The comparison gives anyone who is clear headed and honest the answer.  It's that simple.

First off: Original Sin. If you all hate the struggling so much, the only relief you will ever achieve is in knowing Him. Besides... If there aren't illnesses and deaths, what would happen to our world? Everyone big on science here, calculate that out... No one would die. Overpopulation!
Also... You all blame God for problems while you sit here and do nothing about it. Many people blame God because we aren't big enough to admit that humans have flaws, we aren't perfect, and that things happen and it is our fault. That's why we have the freedom of choice. I have no doubt that God is looking at his suffering children and weeping because of their pain. He sends the Holy Spirit to work through us and to help them, to reach out, and to fix these problems! Instead we would rather sit on our high horse, say God doesn't exist, then say it's His fault there is suffering, and finally, not do anything at all about it.

None of the above shows why your deity exists in the first place.  Seriously.  Grow up.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline FaithAlone

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2009, 04:05:52 PM »
I may not be wise, okay? Grow up? I'm sixteen. I'm not supposed to grow up yet. But I am allowed to freely state my beliefs here, and that is exactly what I am doing.

Offline Hermes

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2009, 04:11:24 PM »
I may not be wise, okay? Grow up? I'm sixteen. I'm not supposed to grow up yet. But I am allowed to freely state my beliefs here, and that is exactly what I am doing.

Then learn to understand what people are actually saying or get called on your misrepresentations of it.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline FaithAlone

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2009, 04:13:58 PM »
I am trying to understand. But if I understand and disagree, uhhh. Difference of opinion. You disagree, I disagree, maybe sometime we may agree... We all could be wrong, quite frankly.

Offline Hermes

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2009, 04:38:20 PM »
I am trying to understand. But if I understand and disagree, uhhh. Difference of opinion. You disagree, I disagree, maybe sometime we may agree... We all could be wrong, quite frankly.

I don't think you understand enough to disagree. 

Slow down, and take one thing at a time.  Maybe you will understand enough to disagree where there is an actual disagreement.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline kaseypink123

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2009, 07:41:14 PM »
Kaseypink123, have you performed meditation?

Part of what you describe as an experience is what appears when wakeful meditation is practiced.

Hermes,

No, but I actually just borrowed a book on meditation.  I have been reading a lot about it online and somewhat similar....kinda like a zen type state????

Offline Hermes

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Re: blind certainty vs. spiritual faith [#938]
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2009, 08:50:47 PM »
Sorry for the delay;  ;D



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

As a responsible person, someone who cares about the world and the future of humanity, I have to act.  Even if it is not my fault that these Christians are doing harm, it is my responsibility to do something positive.  You can consider it a moral obligation.  If that means that I have to hold up a mirror so that my fellow humans look at what they believe, then I'll take that modest step.  Maybe that will be enough to drain the air out of some of those bad ideas?

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer