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Author Topic: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam  (Read 11376 times)

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Offline lost_ti_bon_ange

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2009, 11:06:32 AM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
   - Karen Owens -

subhemia

  • Guest
Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2009, 12:37:34 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 

Offline lost_ti_bon_ange

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2009, 12:41:44 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 


My understanding is that this is a form of discipline, not a method to prevent someone from doing great harm to another.  She strays, she is brought back into line.  First attempt to talk to her but if that fails, hit so she submits.
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
   - Karen Owens -

subhemia

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2009, 12:51:14 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 


My understanding is that this is a form of discipline, not a method to prevent someone from doing great harm to another.  She strays, she is brought back into line.  First attempt to talk to her but if that fails, hit so she submits.

is your "understanding" (quote marks not meant as sarcasm, fyi) based on what the koran actually says, or some other official determinant of islamic doctrine? 

let's ask somegirl - she obviously has firsthand experience of the religion that counts a lot more than ours...somegirl?  you getting this?

Offline lost_ti_bon_ange

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2009, 01:02:55 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 


My understanding is that this is a form of discipline, not a method to prevent someone from doing great harm to another.  She strays, she is brought back into line.  First attempt to talk to her but if that fails, hit so she submits.

is your "understanding" (quote marks not meant as sarcasm, fyi) based on what the koran actually says, or some other official determinant of islamic doctrine? 

let's ask somegirl - she obviously has firsthand experience of the religion that counts a lot more than ours...somegirl?  you getting this?


I'm getting my "understanding" from her response is post #62 (I do not know how to isert so can only quote):

Quote


 About Surah 4:34
 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to exel the other, and because they spend(to support0 from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah, and then thier husbands) and guard in the husbands’ absence what Allah has ordered them to guard(their chastity, property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them(first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them. Surely, Allah is ever so most high, most great."
Now to translate, just the end part
Beat them. Some words today(beat, for example) didn't necessarily mean the same in the 6th century. The word beat here does not mean make sure you give them a bloody nose and break thier bones etc but tap them lightly. But if it left a scar or something, the wife has full right to divorce you. I find that to be O.K, and not condoning women, if it did, I would not be a muslim now would I.

 Another thing i've noticed about this forum is everybody thinks like a robot,
I'M BEING SERIOUS, in reality, a man would not hit his wife, but rather talk it out on. That is used as a absolute last resort if all else were to fall.




Sounds like discipline to me.
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
   - Karen Owens -

subhemia

  • Guest
Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2009, 01:09:12 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 


My understanding is that this is a form of discipline, not a method to prevent someone from doing great harm to another.  She strays, she is brought back into line.  First attempt to talk to her but if that fails, hit so she submits.

is your "understanding" (quote marks not meant as sarcasm, fyi) based on what the koran actually says, or some other official determinant of islamic doctrine? 

let's ask somegirl - she obviously has firsthand experience of the religion that counts a lot more than ours...somegirl?  you getting this?


I'm getting my "understanding" from her response is post #62 (I do not know how to isert so can only quote):

Quote


 About Surah 4:34
 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to exel the other, and because they spend(to support0 from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah, and then thier husbands) and guard in the husbands’ absence what Allah has ordered them to guard(their chastity, property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them(first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them. Surely, Allah is ever so most high, most great."
Now to translate, just the end part
Beat them. Some words today(beat, for example) didn't necessarily mean the same in the 6th century. The word beat here does not mean make sure you give them a bloody nose and break thier bones etc but tap them lightly. But if it left a scar or something, the wife has full right to divorce you. I find that to be O.K, and not condoning women, if it did, I would not be a muslim now would I.

 Another thing i've noticed about this forum is everybody thinks like a robot,
I'M BEING SERIOUS, in reality, a man would not hit his wife, but rather talk it out on. That is used as a absolute last resort if all else were to fall.




Sounds like discipline to me.

fair enough. lacking a rebuttal or revisement of some sort from somegirl, that, for the time being, is what we have to go on. 

in all fairness, though, virtually all fairly old religious texts have some sorta crap about how the woman has to do as the man says and so on.  obviously that doesn't hold up today, and it also doesn't mean that every catholic or muslim or what-have-you has to continue to behave that way. 

blind dogma, in my opinion, is the thing that makes organized religion its own worst enemy. 

Offline lost_ti_bon_ange

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2009, 01:41:58 PM »
You obviously don't even know the rules. Why do you think I always do this when i wright "beat"
ALL ANSWER ALL YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS, BUT FIRST, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THE RULES OF WIFE "BEATING" IN ISLAM?!

No.  I do not.  But wife beating is wrong, and any culture that says otherwise is barbaric.

I don't care if it's wife beating, wife slapping, hitting wife with a feather, tickling wife without permission in a way she finds invasive and is meant to punish, or even raising a hand to threaten wife, it is wrong, and to subscribe to a culture that allows a husband to hit a wife, under any circumstances, is misogynistic (misogynistic means anti woman or woman hating) and barbaric

And I haven't even got onto head scarves or genital mutilation.


I'm weighing in just to show that this is not a minority opinion.  Fine, give up the word "beat" and change it to "hit" or "strike" or "firmly touch"  Not acceptable - EVER.  To say otherwise is to allow for INEQUALITY and leads to abuse.

has anybody asked the obvious question of somegirl about wife beating - i.e., is it only acceptable to hit one's wife under the same circumstances one might be forced to hit (or otherwise physically deter) anyone?  like, say, if they're about to kill someone or themselves and some kind of physical deterrent is the only way available to stop them?  because, let's face it;  there are certain circumstances under which even the most non-violent person might be forced to hit someone (no matter who they are) whether they bloody well want to or not.

if what i suspect here is the case, then the only problem i'd have with it is if a woman is explicitly not allowed to do the same under the necessary circumstances. 

don't get me wrong - i don't "advocate" violence in and of itself as a solution to anything.  but it's just silly to think it's never necessary. 


My understanding is that this is a form of discipline, not a method to prevent someone from doing great harm to another.  She strays, she is brought back into line.  First attempt to talk to her but if that fails, hit so she submits.

is your "understanding" (quote marks not meant as sarcasm, fyi) based on what the koran actually says, or some other official determinant of islamic doctrine? 

let's ask somegirl - she obviously has firsthand experience of the religion that counts a lot more than ours...somegirl?  you getting this?


I'm getting my "understanding" from her response is post #62 (I do not know how to isert so can only quote):

Quote


 About Surah 4:34
 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to exel the other, and because they spend(to support0 from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah, and then thier husbands) and guard in the husbands’ absence what Allah has ordered them to guard(their chastity, property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them(first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them. Surely, Allah is ever so most high, most great."
Now to translate, just the end part
Beat them. Some words today(beat, for example) didn't necessarily mean the same in the 6th century. The word beat here does not mean make sure you give them a bloody nose and break thier bones etc but tap them lightly. But if it left a scar or something, the wife has full right to divorce you. I find that to be O.K, and not condoning women, if it did, I would not be a muslim now would I.

 Another thing i've noticed about this forum is everybody thinks like a robot,
I'M BEING SERIOUS, in reality, a man would not hit his wife, but rather talk it out on. That is used as a absolute last resort if all else were to fall.




Sounds like discipline to me.

fair enough. lacking a rebuttal or revisement of some sort from somegirl, that, for the time being, is what we have to go on. 

in all fairness, though, virtually all fairly old religious texts have some sorta crap about how the woman has to do as the man says and so on.  obviously that doesn't hold up today, and it also doesn't mean that every catholic or muslim or what-have-you has to continue to behave that way. 

blind dogma, in my opinion, is the thing that makes organized religion its own worst enemy. 


True, but if you don't call someone on their blind dogma then it remains that.  Maybe that would be okay if the person(s) who wants to live within their blind dogma doesn't try, in any way, to get others to accept the same.  But trying to get me to accept his or her 'justification' for it is the same as trying to get me to accept/endorse/allow/believe/tolerate.  You want to have a relationship with someone or something that abuses you because you think it's right or justified -fine, have your fetish.  But do not demand (expect) that I accept that it's RIGHT.  And somegirl is here to get us to accept/endorse/allow/believe/tolerate that Islam is RIGHT.  Otherwise, why explain it to us?
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
   - Karen Owens -

Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2009, 04:17:38 PM »
...Every non-muslim is an infidel, it simply means non-muslim.

Likewise I've tried explaining to my bumpkin fellow US atheists that a fatwa is nothing more than a nonbinding religious opinion, but most of them to this day have been conditioned upon hearing the word to salivate, bark, and tremble with rage at the thought that this is a binding, universal death warrant!

"in-" meaning not, and "fidel" meaning faith.  Unbeliever.  Islam is the only faith.  The Arabic word is kafir, and non-belief is kufr.

To Sunnis, a fatwa can be non-binding.  To Shiites a fatwa can be binding depending on the cleric issuing the fatwa.

Most of us "bumpkins" never heard of a fatwa before the one inciting the murder of Salman Rushdie.  Thus the confusion.


Hey, somebody knows Arabic.  :)
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Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2009, 04:37:42 PM »

so is marriage children obey their mother; woman obeys her husband, man obeys God and the prophet


I agree partly. But I do not agree with the order.

It's kids who obey their parants, then husband and wife(the parants) and of course above all, the Lord.

That sounds a little contradicting doesn't it.
What Afadly said is right, but it's not like whatever the husbands says, the wife must do. Not that kind of obey.
AHHHH! >:( now i'm getting angry, i cant figure out how to say it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 05:25:03 PM by SomeGirl »
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Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2009, 04:53:52 PM »
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I will be out during the last week of January, I have to study for my finals, and all. But the biggest thing is wife beating, so i've prepared this. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Lets start with the root,
 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) do not share their beds, (and last) beat (tap) them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means : for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all)." (Quran 4:34)

In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not overlook her positive aspects (see Qur'an 4:19). If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, her husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem continues, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in deliberate mistreatment and expresses contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure then a punitive one.
 It must be seen as a rare exception to the repeated exhortation of mutual respect, kindness and good treatment, discussed earlier. Based on the Qur'an and hadith this measure may be used in the cases of lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and rejection of the husband's reasonable requests on a consistent basis (nushuz). Even then, other measures, such as exhortation, should be tried first.
 As defined by hadith, it is not permissible to strike anyone's face, cause any bodily harm or even be harsh . What the hadith qualified as dharban ghayra mubarrih, or light striking, was interpreted by early jurists as a (symbolic) use of miswak (a small natural toothbrush)! They further qualified permissible "striking" as that which leaves no mark on the body. It is interesting that this latter fourteen-centuries-old qualifier is the criterion used in contemporary American law to separate a light and harmless tap or strike from "abuse" in the legal sense. This makes it clear that even this extreme, last resort, and "lesser of the two evils" measure that may save a marriage does not meet the definitions of "physical abuse," "family violence, " or "wife battering" in the 20th century law in liberal democracies, where such extremes are so commonplace that they are seen as national concerns.
 
The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction does not imply its desirability In several ahadith, Prophet Muhammad (P) discouraged this measure.
  Among his sayings are the following: "Do not beat the female servants of Allah;" "Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands (beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you;" and"[It is not a shame that] one of you beats his wife like [an unscrupulous person] beats a slave and maybe he sleeps with her at the end of the day." (See Riyadh Al-Saliheen, op.cit,p.p. 137-140).
  In another hadith the Prophet(P) said, ...How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?... (Sahih Al-Bukhari,op.cit., vol.8.hadith 68,pp.42-43).
  True following of the sunnah is to follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (P), who never resorted to that measure , regardless of the circumstances. (credit to Jannah.org for the information)

So, even the prophet has never done such a thing.

Examples, me and my imaginary husband.
I'm neglecting our kids, he finds out and tells me to stop. Sure, i say. But couple days later, he finds out i still am neglecting them. Then the next step would be he stops sharing bed with me, sex etc. And i still dont listen. Finally he "hits" me. And like the saying goes, he knocked some sense into me. So not only did i stop neglecting our kids, but my marriage was all so saved. He could've divorced me long time ago if he wanted to. Same thing for: trying to jump off a cliff, abuse and/or neglect child, adultry, and all that horrible stuff.

Now picture this: I'm baking bread, and he wants sex, but I refuse, so he beats me. Whether he gives me a bloody nose, black eye, or paralyesed for life, it's wrong and a sin. I have full right to divorce him, and i'd call the police too. Why'd i even marry such a man in the first place?

So please stop picturing a wife beaten to half death. In some cases, no matter how peaceful someone is, this type of measure has to be take.

 But I hope that helps. Again, i wont reply back for a while.( Febuary 2)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 08:16:49 PM by SomeGirl »
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Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2009, 04:59:38 PM »
P.S

Afadly, are you a Sunni or Shiite muslim?
Just a friendly question.
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Offline Iamnotarobot

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2009, 06:07:06 PM »
I don't know, SomeGirl... here's what I don't necessarily agree with:

"And i still dont listen. Finally he hits me. And like the saying goes, he knocked some sense into me. So not only did i stop doing drugs, but my marriage was all so saved."

If someone has a drug addiction, being smacked around may not make them stop. In fact, it might depress them and make them take more drugs. There is no excuse for hitting someone, ever. If the husband (or wife) loves the person, hitting is not how we show it. Tough love doesn't involve hitting, ever.

Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2009, 08:19:44 PM »
I don't know, SomeGirl... here's what I don't necessarily agree with:

"And i still dont listen. Finally he hits me. And like the saying goes, he knocked some sense into me. So not only did i stop doing drugs, but my marriage was all so saved."

If someone has a drug addiction, being smacked around may not make them stop. In fact, it might depress them and make them take more drugs. There is no excuse for hitting someone, ever. If the husband (or wife) loves the person, hitting is not how we show it. Tough love doesn't involve hitting, ever.

First off, after reading your message, I changed it becuace the drug part wasn't really the point. No offense, but I think you kinda missed it. And I guess it didn't help becuase you said:

"there is no excuse for hitting someone, ever. If the husband (or wife) loves the person, hitting is not how we show it. Tough love doesn't involve hitting, ever."


(sigh) A man can not hit his wife. How many times must I repeat myself!!
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2009, 08:22:14 PM »
(sigh) A man can not hit his wife. How many times must I repeat myself!!


At least as many times a Muslim husband says he can.
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Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2009, 09:10:50 PM »
(sigh) A man can not hit his wife. How many times must I repeat myself!!


At least as many times a Muslim husband says he can.

Well he must be an idiot then. No matter how much he denies it, It will always be like that.
Where'd you even get that from?
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Offline Whitney

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2009, 11:29:01 PM »
That is why man is responsible on spending on the family
God created women different than men (not only strength) men think more practical and women use emotions more
See any statistics to compare number of women as inventors, business or political leaders, etc.

So says the troll.

Offline Whitney

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2009, 11:31:41 PM »

so is marriage children obey their mother; woman obeys her husband, man obeys God and the prophet


I agree partly. But I do not agree with the order.

It's kids who obey their parants, then husband and wife(the parants) and of course above all, the Lord.

That sounds a little contradicting doesn't it.
What Afadly said is right, but it's not like whatever the husbands says, the wife must do. Not that kind of obey.
AHHHH! >:( now i'm getting angry, i cant figure out how to say it.


SomeGirl, probably because there is no way to say it that doesn't sound bad.

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2009, 03:10:05 AM »
I agree partly. But I do not agree with the order.

It's kids who obey their parants, then husband and wife(the parants) and of course above all, the Lord.

That sounds a little contradicting doesn't it.
What Afadly said is right, but it's not like whatever the husbands says, the wife must do. Not that kind of obey.
AHHHH! >:( now i'm getting angry, i cant figure out how to say it.


SomeGirl, probably because there is no way to say it that doesn't sound bad.

you can assume that if you like, but if i'm not mistaken it is also a vocabulary problem.  for one thing, the word "obey" in some cultures and contexts has a broader meaning than simply to do precisely what someone orders you to.  and of course the koran was not written in english - what was the word in the original language, and what are it's other connotations?

for instance, one etymology of the english word obey that i found online goes like this;

c.1290, from O.Fr. obeir, from L. oboedire "obey, pay attention to, give ear," lit. "listen to," from ob "to" + audire "listen, hear" (see audience). Same sense development is in cognate O.E. hiersumnian.

this would seem to indicate that the words carries a heavy connotation of respect, rather than simple subservience. 

i may be off here, but there are a lot of words used in religious contexts that are not as simple as the colloquial use.  in the bible, for example, they use the expression to "fear" the lord.  fear in this context has more to do with being in awe or treating with reverence than actually being afraid, and most places where people are simply afraid of the lord it can easily and without stretching be attributed simply to the trepidation one is certain to feel when confronted with something beyond one's everyday comprehension. 

i for one believe true religious or spiritual experience always has a dimension of terror to it...not necessarily because we "fear" retribution (although that could be also) but because we naturally fear the unknown and unpredictable. 

as they say in the chronicles of narnia, aslan the lion (who represents God, of course) is not a "safe" or "tame" lion. 

rambling a bit...i guess my main point would be that religious myth documents are one place where words are used somewhat differently than other places.  more poetic, perhaps.  at any rate, it's something to be careful of.   

Offline AFadly

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2009, 03:53:01 AM »
P.S

Afadly, are you a Sunni or Shiite muslim?
Just a friendly question.
I'm Sunni and consider most Shiite as non-Muslim  (not a very friendly answer heh  >:( )

Offline AFadly

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2009, 03:57:55 AM »
A man can not hit his wife. How many times must I repeat myself!!
You just said that your (imaginary) husband hit you and you accepted it

It is not like that
A Muslim man can beat his wife (It is stated very clear in Quran)
Beating is a finally punishment a man can use against his wife
but it can not be on face or too strong to make an injury

I have a small stick (About 10 inches) sometimes I use it to punish my children; I used it once to beat my wife and it was very beneficial  ;D

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #165 on: January 26, 2009, 04:28:17 AM »
So SomeGirl, is Afadly correct, or are you?
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Offline alihaymeg

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #166 on: January 26, 2009, 04:49:03 AM »
Quote
You just said that your (imaginary) husband hit you and you accepted it

It is not like that
A Muslim man can beat his wife (It is stated very clear in Quran)
Beating is a finally punishment a man can use against his wife
but it can not be on face or too strong to make an injury

I have a small stick (About 10 inches) sometimes I use it to punish my children; I used it once to beat my wife and it was very beneficial 

It's O.K. if she likes it. I like it rough myself.

There is a difference between fear and respect. I haven’t spanked my kids in over 8 years. They respect me and follow my rules because they don't want to disappoint me, not because they fear me. As for beating my wife (now ex-wife) that sounds like fun (since she's my ex-wife) but it would not be right. Besides, she would then own more of my future earnings than she already does.

We are separated by a large gap in world view. It is hard for us to understand your position just as I'm sure you would not understand ours.

One question: How was it beneficial to beat your wife? (Other than the obvious pleasure involved)

Offline AFadly

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2009, 06:27:57 AM »
There is a difference between fear and respect. I haven’t spanked my kids in over 8 years. They respect me and follow my rules because they don't want to disappoint me, not because they fear me. As for beating my wife (now ex-wife) that sounds like fun (since she's my ex-wife) but it would not be right. Besides, she would then own more of my future earnings than she already does.
A good thing in Islam, wealth are not shared after divorce (each one keeps his money)
Usually it is the man who will pay for his ex-wife some moeny

Quote
One question: How was it beneficial to beat your wife? (Other than the obvious pleasure involved)
Her behavior improved a lot after that (she knew that I'm serious about some issues)
Since then we almost did not fight for about 7 years

* Good bosses discuss things, negotiate (even argue) but at the end it is their words!

Offline trustno1

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2009, 09:14:33 AM »
It's really just stunning that a thread like this, or say a thread discussing homosexuality or discussing the 1.5% of priests accused of boinking altar boys, can go on and on and on...

...while our comfy, indoctrinated, ever so politically correct US atheists won't hardly touch with a forty foot pole the phony, invented religion and extended family crime syndicate known as "Judaism."  Are we seriously so worried worried worried about domestic violence in Muslim culture (while domestic violence of this sort is almost certainly more prevalent in our own comfy US 'burbs), while at the same moment we're able to essentially turn a blind eye to the mass imprisonment of Muslims, turn a blind eye to the purposeful, planned mass deprivation of vital goods and services from Muslims, and turn a blind eye to the purposeful mass incineration -- mass murder -- of Muslim civilian women and children by the Israeli Occupation Forces and sanctioned and paid for by your own tax money?  Where's the sense of proportion here?  Do you comfy little middle American atheists get all your worldviews and all your raw "info," such as it is, from John Stewart and Bill Maher comedy shows, and from Jerry Bruckheimer and Steven Spielberg movies?

Yes, I'm derailing.  For their sheer tangential relevance to core issues these kinds of threads deserve a reality bump even if it is derailing.   
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Offline Louder

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #169 on: January 26, 2009, 09:43:47 AM »
As a start I just wanna clarify and state how were the people of Arabia (Gorayesh and villages around them) how they were treating their women,

They buried their daughters a life.
They believed men and women that girls are a shame.
They were treating their wife’s like slaves, or maybe worst.

Imagine guys that these people were killing their daughters just like he did nothing, and when he gets the news of a newborn child – girl- his face goes dark and he feels shame and can’t wait to kill and destroy that part of his life.
When prophet Mohammad has been sent to these people this is what the way they were thinking in their own culture/religion, He fought to correct these concepts He told them not to treat woman like that he told them to love them to teach them to respect them to give them their position that they deserve.

Prophet Mohammad, said “I hate one of you who hit their wife’s like they hit a slave and after that they sleep with them”
Hitting the wife in Islam is only valid for some situations, disobeys her husband’s will or bringing some one the husband’s hate to his house, but first before that you should advice her then if not work then leave her on the bed for a while if all that didn’t workout then you have permitted to hit her lightly avoiding the face and any other affects.

Sure there is a lot of differences between men and women there is a physical differences witch we all see and know, and also there is physical interior differences that we also know like Harmon’s and more different secretions happens all around the woman and man body differently.

In the witnesses thing-it’s totally related to this issue because under some circumstances woman can easily get affected emotionally and that can affect her testimony either positively or not. And that’s why we need them to be two, to assure this emotional extra feeling the woman have will not affect such an innocent person or let a bad guy go without punishment.

I think the following verse would explain a lot about the women in Islam.

The Holy Quran
04.19

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 09:52:11 AM by Louder »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #170 on: January 26, 2009, 11:02:00 AM »
you can assume that if you like, but if i'm not mistaken it is also a vocabulary problem. 
<snip>

this would seem to indicate that the words carries a heavy connotation of respect, rather than simple subservience. 

Then why is it not applied both ways?  Why does it not say the man must also obey his wife?  No.  It means subservience.  And even if it did not, that is how it is almost universally applied in muslim homes.

And for the coward, amro fadly: beating your wife only makes her stop arguing with you.  It does not make you right and it does not change her mind.  This is part of the infantile response of muslims world wide when they have a disagreement.  Rather than have a discussion, their first impulse is to violence.  It is cultural and part of their religion.  In the end, it has to go.

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Offline Thanatos2

Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #171 on: January 26, 2009, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote
About Surah 4:34
 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to exel the other, and because they spend(to support0 from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah, and then thier husbands) and guard in the husbands’ absence what Allah has ordered them to guard(their chastity, property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them(first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them. Surely, Allah is ever so most high, most great."
Now to translate, just the end part
Beat them. Some words today(beat, for example) didn't necessarily mean the same in the 6th century. The word beat here does not mean make sure you give them a bloody nose and break thier bones etc but tap them lightly. But if it left a scar or something, the wife has full right to divorce you. I find that to be O.K, and not condoning women, if it did, I would not be a muslim now would I.

 Another thing i've noticed about this forum is everybody thinks like a robot,
I'M BEING SERIOUS, in reality, a man would not hit his wife, but rather talk it out on. That is used as a absolute last resort if all else were to fall.

Surah 2:228, You've missed more than half of it. Which made me think, where are you getting these from?
" And divorced women shall wait(as regards their marriage) for three menstral periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in ther wombs, if they believe in Allah and last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they(women) have rights(or husbands) similar (to those of their husbands) over them(as regards to obidienceand respect) towhat is reasonable, but men have a degree(of responsiblity) over them. And Allah is all-mighty, all-wise."

Now to translate, just the end part
Both man and women have a responsiblity, and one exel in some stuff than the other(in majority)
Man and women are EQUAL, you can refer to my other comment explaining that.

2: 282
Again, you've missed more than have of it. This verse is VERRRRRYYYY LONG, in fact, IT IS THE LONGEST VERSE IN THE QUR'AAN. But...
 It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases.There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.
For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions

"and continues to say The Prophet said, 'Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.'"
I've necer heard, would you mind explaining it to me, please.

Somegirl, you cannot be serious to actually think this is a rebuttal.....(sigh)

Surah 4:34

to beat does not mean to lightly hit, and for you to make that insinuation is ridiculous. Here is the definition of beat
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beat

Educate yourself please. Also, where in the Koran is that addendum that means to beat is to only lightly hit? Please quote from the Koran, not vague words about beating meaning something different in 6th century.


2:228

I noticed you added alot of Brackets to connotate what you THINK they mean, but this does not match the Koran, translated to English that I picked up at the Mosque by Bloor and Dufferein in Toronto Ontario. So, you're connotations, as they do not max the religious text picked up from where I got this, are, in a word, bullshit. The Quran SPECIFICALLY States that Men are in higher Status then women, and just because some people came in after and decided to say that it means something else through connotations, as you put in, doesn't change the original meaning, as written in the Quran. ONCE AGAIN, my quote is taken DIRECTLY from the Quran, no connotations. Once again, as it does not match what the Quran says, you're attempt at revisionism is Epic Fail.

2: 282

OK so, the Quran says, explicitly, that women's Testimony is only half that of a mans, yet, because it was from a time when men we're the breadwinners, and it's only mentioned once in the Quran, it's invalid? Ridiculous. This is supposed to be the Word of God, unfallible. Islamic apologetics are just as Bad as Christian ones it seems.

As for the quote from the Prophet, since you're gonna all of a sudden feign ignorance on your own Holybook as you never heard it(interesting someone coming onto this forum and saying that cultures do not follow the True Islam, but does not know her own Holy book....) The Quote is taken from the Hadith, specifically Bukhari (6:301)

But then again, you know this, and are simply feigning ignorance, in your increasingly shaky position. Once again, If you think that the Quran promotes equality between men and women YOU ARE DELUSIONAL, no matter how much you dislike it.

I know, the Truth Hurts. You, my friend, are a second class citizen in both your own culture, and your own religion.



Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #172 on: January 26, 2009, 07:44:11 PM »
That is why man is responsible on spending on the family
God created women different than men (not only strength) men think more practical and women use emotions more
See any statistics to compare number of women as inventors, business or political leaders, etc.

So says the troll.

troll?
I dislike Haters.

Offline SomeGirl

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Re: Islam from a Girl:1:Woman in Islam
« Reply #173 on: January 26, 2009, 07:46:32 PM »
P.S

Afadly, are you a Sunni or Shiite muslim?
Just a friendly question.
I'm Sunni and consider most Shiite as non-Muslim  (not a very friendly answer heh  >:( )

Same here.
I dislike Haters.