Author Topic: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]  (Read 1003 times)

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Offline DL



HUMILITY IS THE KEY FOR ENLIGHTENMENT TO THE TRUTH



FOR THOSE WITHOUT FAITH IN ANYTHING BUT THE PHYSICAL SENSES…

PLEASE BEGIN HERE

In your mind, put yourself in a two-dimensional universe where you become a flat disk and everything that is understood about the universe and existence, by you and other flat disks, is some degree of Forward, Back, Left and Right on what seems to be an endless plane.

The greatest scientific minds of the flat disk population have built what they believe are powerful theories and technology to try to see how big the plane of the universe is but they have not been able to determine that with much certainty. From what they can see it is so vast in size that it is impossible to travel with their level of understanding.

Deep down you may have lived with a feeling that there was more to your existence than the two-dimensional universe but you placed your trust in your physical senses and not your feelings. One day, while alone, “God” from the third dimension reached down from The Above and turned you over in ways that defied probability and random chance. Your life was turned upside down with the undeniable realization that there was more to your existence than the two-dimensional universe and what you learned about its plane from science.

When you told other flat disk family, friends and acquaintances, a few had faith enough to believe in what you said about The Above but most said that you look like the same flat disk and questioned what you meant by being turned over? They said that you imagined it, were going crazy, making it up or perhaps that it was some being from the Distant Forward on the plane of the universe that we do not know about and who are more advanced than us.

Every time you ask them to have faith in The Above, they think the plane of the two-dimensional universe in that direction and call it the Distant Forward. They encourage you to live your day-to-day life and forget about things that they have not physically sensed. They encourage you to believe in our powerful theories and technology so that we may learn more about the Distant Forward of the two-dimensional universe and by doing that we will give meaning to our existence. In fact, some family, friends and acquaintances believe that contact with other advanced beings in the Distant Forward may help us with that effort. Ultimately, they say have faith in yourself rather than in some God from The Above.

Despite some who think that you have gone crazy or give you hostile remarks, you experienced The Truth and found out that it was God. In addition to your own understanding, what gives meaning to you being someone turned-over, a flat disk no more special than other flat disks, and what drives you is a hope for others. A hope that, maybe, you might be able to help someone to have a realization that science of the Distant Forward is fine but that it is the heart that leads us to The Truth, that is God, and to have faith in him from The Above.



FOR THOSE WITH FAITH BEYOND THE PHYSICAL SENSES…

PLEASE BEGIN HERE

For those who understand that there is far more beyond the physical senses and material World, and who seek enlightenment to the Truth, it is my hope that you have an open mind and will truly ponder on my message here. If the terminology of Devil and False Prophet concern you, then perhaps you know them as Draconians, Reptiles or some other name that you have come to understand the controlling Evil of this World along with that which brings false messages of enlightenment. Don’t get distracted by a simple play on names. There are many ways to say the same thing.

My warning to you is that the Devil, through his False Prophet, will try to fool you by a false message of peace, love and selflessness and use that to paint a false sense of what enlightenment really is. How do I know? I will explain how humility, and being opposed to pride, is the key to showing us the real enlightenment to the Truth.

The Devil and all of the Fallen Angels fell from Heaven when they “beheld their fairness and desired to be above God.” It is the highest sin of pride to believe that one can become God or be above God.

The Devil and Fallen Angels have very strong envy and hatred of Mankind because we have the opportunity to join the Heavenly Host and share eternal life with God and they cannot.

Humanity was created perfect but Adam paid no heed to God nor to his power but consented to the suggestion of the Devil and sinned by saying “Let us eat of the Tree of Life, and we shall know all things good and evil.” Adam and Eve tried to be as wise as God and because of that sin fell from grace. They didn’t fall like the Devil and Fallen Angels who also had envy of God.

As this Age closes and Revelation is upon us, The Devil through the False Prophet will try to get us to embrace pride by having us believe that through achieving perfect enlightenment we can gain the knowledge of God. In addition to love of the material World, Evil is trying to get each of us to commit the original sin all over again! It’s one thing for messages or inspiration and to be with God eternally but to have God’s knowledge would create more than one God.

Refuse any philosophy, person or being that suggests that you can gain the knowledge of God through achieving perfect enlightenment or encourages you to take pride in your inner being or enlightenment. Do not be lulled by talk of peace, love and selflessness, which is only the Trojan Horse in this context. Instead focus on the humility or pride of the person and message.

Ask yourself when has pride truly ever been the cause of peace, love and selflessness! Such things have only ever come from true champions of humility. Humility allowed someone like George Washington to walk away from power. Pride would have made him crave power and to be Emperor. Consider that the teachings of Jesus Christ and his humility has inspired peacemakers such as Mohandas Ghandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela and how much more evil the World would have been, and be today, without Jesus Christ inspiring such people. Also, do not focus on the hypocrisy of people who committed evil in the name of Jesus Christ, as they were not true followers of his teachings but usurpers of the worst kind.

If you have an issue believing in the source of Humility being Jesus Christ then please consider the following:

If the highest example pride is to believe that we specs of “Star/Earth Dust” can attain the knowledge of God through perfect enlightenment then the greatest example of Humility would be the fact that the very living force of the enormous Universe and more came to be among us specs of “Star/Earth Dust,” to be one of us and to teach us. Further, that such an almighty power allowed itself to be brutalized and sacrificed for our own good and understanding. What greater humility can there be than that???

What did Jesus Christ sacrifice for? He sacrificed for humanity’s sins but also consider that he sacrificed so that today we can truly understand the difference between a message of hope that is humility and one that is pride and to save us from sin through deceit of the False Prophet. I implore you to have the humility to understand that the force of Evil that controls this planet is ancient and inherently far more powerful and knowledgeable than us. Without the humility of Jesus Christ, and his love for us in doing what he did so that we may understand, we would have all been blindly fooled into committing the original sin all over again. From my heart, I completely admit to this and give thanks and love to my Lord Jesus Christ for his wisdom, guidance and for being my highest hope and savior.

For those still skeptical please truly ponder this final important thought. The Devil would have his greatest revenge with God if we all were fooled during the End-Times (End of this Age / Revelation) into committing the original sin all over again. He would have proved to God that we never improved from the time of Adam and Eve and that, through us their decedents, would have fallen all over again.

God knows who I am and that is what is most important to me. You may know why I am the way I am now.

From my heart’s desire and with the words, “Never let it be said that I do not seek to be as close as possible to the truth of all things,” I went on a spiritual journey that I did not know was a spiritual journey. I did not know that the destination would take me to the foot of God and that God is indeed the Truth! That is how I came to break free from the love of the material world and to begin to strive for the difficult and narrow path to Heaven.

From that effort came an inspiration to write this and explain, in yet another way, why Jesus Christ is the Truth and therefore God.

Please send this message far and wide for others to ponder.

-- A Servant of God --

Offline Omen

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For someone that claims to be the sole creation and purpose of the entire universe at the hands of a supernatural being that made you in his 'own image', I don't think 'humility' even has a place.

The analogy has nothing to do with perceptions of atheism or why atheism is justified, it is essentially a 'god of the gaps' argument that relies on ignorance of something in order to presume that that thing is real.  This kind of idiotic argument has been the serious detriment of faith for thousands of years each time we as a race learn knew skills, knowledge, and observations about the universe around us.  The god of the gaps just shifts up another scale once we discover the who/what/where/why of a particular thing, often leaving some with a crisis of faith who previously built their entire world views on ignorance.  A very similar thing happens with evolution, despite evolution having nothing to do with gods existing or not existing.  Literal minded christians create and concentrate on a false dichotomy of 'evolution vs theism' then promptly begin lying through their teeth while claiming to back an absolute moral authority.  The delusion leads them to some pretty ridiculous ends, doing more damage to themselves then achieving the goal of proselytization.  Again, it as much rests upon 'god of the gaps' as much of your statement above.

As far as the mythology around christianity is concerned, the Devil has the ultimate ability to destroy 'gods plan'.  The devil could choose to not participate in this scheme of unnecessary redemption at the hand of a god taking revenge for sins he essentially created in the first place.  It would be as simple as refusing to not 'show up' on judgement day.  That eventuality of course is outside the scope of religious apologetica, because apologetica do not actually concentrate on providing logical intellectual answers.  They instead grope at straws and try to rationalize ANY claim in ANY manner possible with the presumption that any of it is true.  There is simply no information that can be provided to contradict what one presumes to be true beforehand and that is the basis of irrationality/delusion.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 08:12:23 AM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Hermes

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You talk quite a bit about your religious beliefs, including your Devil.

I have a simple question;

        Why doesn't your God banish your Devil?

If you have an answer to that, I have two more complex questions; how does that answer address the Problem of Evil and the Euthypro Dilemma?


http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/the-problem-of-evil/

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/the-euthyphro-dilemma
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline DL

OP responds via email:

--

The World is the way it is because Humanity by far has embraced pride in itself rather than embracing God in humility. The heart of Humanity by far loves and believes in the material World (physical reality) over spiritual love. We all have made our bed and God is letting us lie in it (and that is meant both ways). We are suffering from our pride, which ultimately leads to selfishness and the need to control more than we need.

Evil spurring on our pride, selfishness and need to control more than we need would be far worse than it is if God had completely left us to our own devices and not been the highest example of peace, love and selflessness. Explore the origins of peace, love and selflessness but be very careful of False Prophet messages that encourage pride. Seek the messages of humility.

Consider that most people are asking spiritual questions out of pride and from their minds and not out of humility and from their hearts. That is why they are not touched with spiritual truth. You want to know The Truth. Can you resist pride and embrace humility? Can you quiet your mind and sense with your heart? Truly take a leap of faith and try it. :)

I encourage the two people who responded to the message of humility in the forum to do that. They will see the answers to their arguments, and the questions that they asked, within the message.

To help some of you, this is another way to describe the Distant Forward in my earlier analogy in that message. It will always be the case that the strict laws of the religion of science break down once it tries to understand more of the reality of the physical World. It is an endless Pandora’s Box to use an old expression. Now the religion of science is chasing after a God particle, and has enlisted the resources of 23 nations to do it, but all it will get is even more questions. The answers do not lie in the physical World of the senses, but pride and suppression of the feelings of the heart blind hardened followers of that religion to that realization.

When we have lied in our self-created bed of pride long enough, God will come with both justice and mercy and those who have faith, love and humility will have more than their “amputation” healed. God is not only in the gaps of our knowledge. God is in everything. It is not God's fault that those with pride and hearts that only love the material World do not feel and know God.

When will God come? Only God know the exact moment but consider this:

To the most hardened people, words and wisdom are never enough to encourage them to take a leap of faith. To these people I give fair warning that the End-Times (End of the Age / Revelation) is upon us and that the Brown Dwarf Star Nemesis, with Nibiru and its other planets, is indeed real and coming back. Do the research yourself as the dam holding back that information leaks more. You will see them very soon with the physical senses that you dearly love so much. When that happens, it will shake your core being and you will experience deep emotions, as you never have before. Your pride will fail you, as you will know that all of the science in the World will not save you. Only humility and love for Jesus Christ, our savior, can do that.

-- A Servant of God --

Offline Hermes

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A humble person would answer simple questions.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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To be explicit, here are my simple questions;

You talk quite a bit about your religious beliefs, including your Devil.

I have a simple question;

        Why doesn't your God banish your Devil?

If you have an answer to that, I have two more complex questions; how does that answer address the Problem of Evil and the Euthypro Dilemma?


http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/the-problem-of-evil/

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/the-euthyphro-dilemma
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Introsis

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If "God" did reach down, I would believe it myself, but he has not done so. I've met no one that has experienced it themselves, other then ollie the bum.
"In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule… long have I served as the gaurdian spirit… I am known as the Deku Tree." ~ Deku Tree, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Offline Azdgari

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Those who are humble, have no need to proudly proclaim their humility.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline DL

OP responds via email:

---

Thank you GIIVideo, for posting my messages to your forum. I truly hope that you are exploring and researching many of the things that are linked on my account and further. There is information suppression and a lot of misinformation but don't let that stop you. Perhaps after you have connected all of the dots, you may come to see things in a new way and understand the difference between the reality we thought we knew and The Truth.


For Hermes,

God did banish the Fallen Angels including the Satan but no he did not destroy him just like he hasn’t destroyed us. God has blessed us with souls and the power of free will. God doesn’t remove temptation because it is our free will to choose between two paths, love of the material world or love for God and his will. Do you choose pride in yourself and humanity or do you choose humility to God and his will? Whose will do you wish to serve? It is that simple.

If you serve your will and have decided to be filled with pride of yourself and mankind, so be it. Most people actually feel that way, even many who think that they are Christians but really take God for granted when you get at the heart of things and see the truth. You ask questions about Evil Hermes and think to make the issue complicated but all you really need to do is look to the source of Evil. Look in the mirror and see our pride and love of the material world above all else. Our pride has never served the interests of peace, love and selflessness. Those things came from God and later those who were inspired, and in some cases touched, by him who strived to serve his will. You can ponder the history and research with your mind but ultimately strive to feel this with your heart. Strive to truly let go of pride and open up your heart more. I’m still striving and it is not always easy, even after God turned me over. :)


For Introsis,

God doesn’t care about the material World status of someone. God cares about of their heart’s desire to know The Truth as well as their desire to strive for humility, peace, love and selflessness. In your heart, have you had the desire to truly know any of these things about “ollie the bum?” In your heart, are these things that you truly desire most or do you desire the material world most. Everyone asks questions about God in this forum as if he is responsible for the consequences of our own Free Will and pride, but really the questions need to start with your own hearts. What is it that you truly desire in your heart?


For Azdgari,

It is out of compassion for my fellow man that I hold up a few messages of humility in the hope that some may see them and ponder. Out of humility to God’s Will, I respect your Free Will and the Free Will of countless others to ignore my messages and continue down the path of love of the material world. This World is in the control of evil and filled with lies to cover the truth because of pride from both the Fallen Angels and from mankind. If someone truly has it in their heart to want to try to be as close as possible to the truth of all things, they have the Free Will to do so. That journey can start with research as it did for me. I am truly nobody special. I had some initial faith in a greater power (living Universe) but that is about it. I refuse to be tempted into thinking that just because God accepted my heart’s desire and turned me over in a stunning way that I am anyone more special than the rest of you. That inspires me that there is hope. In fact, there have been many temptations and other odd things literally put before me to stop me from taking this path but I refuse to let go of The Truth! I am speaking the truth with everything that I have said out of compassion for all of you. When Nemesis and Nibiru come and truly begin the tribulations of Revelation. When the numerous connecting lies to that event and our history have been completely exposed for what they are. When all of humanity finally sees The Truth, I can look at God and in my heart tell him that I tried my best.


For Everyone

When Nemesis and Nibiru arrives, it is my hope that you all remember the messages that have been posted here and strive for peace, love and selflessness during the darkest times that we will all face. Also remember my warning about the False Prophet, the original sin repeated, and to start looking at the World from the context of pride vs. humility. Also, if you do come to love God and serve His Will then when things hit rock bottom and they insist on a new ID system to facilitate security and the new monetary system absolutely refuse to accept the mark (chip implant) on your right hand or forehead; it is the same as accepting the Devil as your master. I cannot stress that enough!


May God bless you all and help you, as he helped me, to find The Truth while there is time, if that is truly the heart's desire of your Free Will.

-- A Servant of God --

Offline bgb

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Why do christians put together sentences that make no sense whatsoever. Heart of humility what the hell is that? 
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline Idioteque

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 12:53:22 AM »
Quote
God did banish the Fallen Angels including the Satan but no he did not destroy him just like he hasn’t destroyed us. God has blessed us with souls and the power of free will. God doesn’t remove temptation because it is our free will to choose between two paths, love of the material world or love for God and his will. Do you choose pride in yourself and humanity or do you choose humility to God and his will? Whose will do you wish to serve? It is that simple.

So God blessed Satan and his fallen angels with free will and enough power to destroy the afterlife for billions of others?

Quote
The Devil and Fallen Angels have very strong envy and hatred of Mankind because we have the opportunity to join the Heavenly Host and share eternal life with God and they cannot.

Satan and the angels were in heaven and decided they didn't like it. Why are they jealous and why would they want to go back to something that they hated? I would imagine it had to be a pretty strong hatred to deny the obvious and ever-loving God in a perfect paradise.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 12:55:17 AM by Idioteque »
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 07:18:41 AM »
You've ignored my request for an answer to a simple question...

        Why doesn't your God banish your Devil?

...and have instead preached at us about your deity and your demons ... things non-Christians think are fantasies from your mythology.

Till you stop that and talk *with* us as opposed to *at* us like a crazy soapbox preacher, I see no reason to look at what you write.

Got it?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 07:23:53 AM »
Let me be explicit.  I'm for capital punishment when the crime merits it.

Why hasn't your god destroyed or locked up your demons and devils? 

Why would your god allow them to have any influence or input on anything?

Don't dodge this with BS.  Remember, it's your beliefs ... and to me they are just incoherent.  If you want me to understand what you mean, make it consistent with reality and reason.  If you can't...
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 07:25:13 AM »
Why do christians put together sentences that make no sense whatsoever. Heart of humility what the hell is that? 

Envy.  The Christians that say stuff like that have no humility.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Introsis

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 03:01:39 PM »
We do desire the truth, which is why we don't subject ourselves to one belief in the Christian god. I don't believe that you know the truth yourself, of course you may believe you know the truth, but how do you really know if you haven't explored all of the theories? Your god does care about the material world status, if they've been good or bad, what sins they've commited here, of course he cares. Why else would he put us here if he didn't?

*EDIT* *Removed rant*
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 01:36:32 PM by Introsis »
"In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule… long have I served as the gaurdian spirit… I am known as the Deku Tree." ~ Deku Tree, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Offline DL

Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 03:25:36 PM »
OP responds via email:

---

Hello GIIVideo,

I cannot join the forum directly as who I am is not important because I am no different than any of you except how I use the power of my free will. The inspired message to help people feel God is what is important, if it is their free will to do so. I have truthfully answered all of the questions asked, as I have been inspired to do so.


For bgb:

It is a matter of striving to let go of your pride (that we mankind all have) and striving for humility in your heart (that we mankind all have) Then it will begin to make more sense.


For Idioteque:

Idioteque you asked: “So God blessed Satan and his fallen angels with free will and enough power to destroy the afterlife for billions of others?”

The afterlife is another existence and can never destroyed but it is a matter of which afterlife that you want for your soul. Your free will to choose between the two paths is absolute. It is the power that God gave to each of us. God will not force you to walk the path that leads to him (he does not want forced love for such a thing is not true). The same goes for Satan and the Fallen Angels. God does not allow them to force you to walk the path that leads to them. Their power is nothing compared to the power of God, the one who created those Fallen Angels. Satan and the Fallen Angels indeed have more knowledge and power than mankind and use that power to tempt our free will to walk the path away from love of God and his will by having us embrace our pride and love of the material world instead. The power to choose which path rests with you Idioteque. Each and every person in the billions that you asked about in your question also has that same power.


Idioteque you asked: “Satan and the angels were in heaven and decided they didn't like it. Why are they jealous and why would they want to go back to something that they hated? I would imagine it had to be a pretty strong hatred to deny the obvious and ever-loving God in a perfect paradise.”

Satan does not want to go back to Heaven to be with God as the faithful want to be with God. In his absolute pride in himself, he envies God. He desires for the power to kill God, even though such a thing is not possible. All of this is because he wants to become God. Please consider that his heart is so absolute with pride and so absolute with darkness that he desires to kill the very almighty force that created him! All of the tortures of Hell and his eventual final banishment will never change that desire or lighten his heart in the slightest. Satan and the Fallen Angels have absolute envy that we have the chance to be with God and can be spared their fate. Out of spite for God’s creation, they want as much as possible to go to Hell and ultimately into the final banishment with them!

I am only mankind like you and, no matter how inspired, all of our language is limited in expressing some things. It reminds me of a wise saying that “half of communications is miscommunications because of a misunderstanding of the feeling of what is said.” It is my hope that you feel in your heart what I’m saying because I cannot write or paint a dark enough picture of what I’m feeling about it. Further, through striving for humility on his path, God makes me know that feeling is limited because as Mankind I am limited in what I can truly know and feel.


For Hermes:

I have indeed answered the questions that you have asked Hermes and truly accept your Free Will to keep your heart closed to my answers and walk the path away from God. Through you and others like you, God is helping me to further understand. Even though he directly turned me over, and I have come to have compassion for all of you, I must understand in humility that many will ignore any messages given. Nothing I say, no matter how inspired, will make a difference for many people. My hope is that perhaps a few souls will have their hearts sparked with The Truth in the messages and feel in their hearts what you and many others refuse Hermes. As I see Nemesis and Nibiru in the sky and we all have our tribulations of the Revelation and End-Times, I will remember you Hermes and I will still have compassion for you and the many others that chose to refuse to have faith in God.


For Everyone:

Only through the tribulations of the Revelation will many of you believe and at that time it will be too late for you free will to change your path because the opportunity to have faith will be over. God will completely banish, to the “Lake of Fire,” the Devil and his influence on mankind as part of his divine plan. The Fallen Angels will follow next and be followed by those who choose the Devil’s path by their own free will. I hope that a few of you see the divine justice. I do not have all of the answers to God’s divine plan, only God does. I am only mankind just like you. The only true difference between any of us is what we have done with the power of our free will, God’s gift to us. :)

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 06:06:50 PM »
Does anyone see anything worth responding to?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Idioteque

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 06:12:24 PM »

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Idioteque you asked: “Satan and the angels were in heaven and decided they didn't like it. Why are they jealous and why would they want to go back to something that they hated? I would imagine it had to be a pretty strong hatred to deny the obvious and ever-loving God in a perfect paradise.”

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Satan does not want to go back to Heaven to be with God as the faithful want to be with God. In his absolute pride in himself, he envies God. He desires for the power to kill God, even though such a thing is not possible.

So Satan is not very smart I suppose. Pretty interesting that a guy smart enough to deceive the world and send billions into hellfire can't even figure out that his entire existence depends on the God who allows him to do what he does. You still haven't stated a reason as to why God doesn't wipe the devil from existence, or at least keep him from interacting with his creation. God has the power to do so if he is truly all powerful.

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All of this is because he wants to become God. Please consider that his heart is so absolute with pride and so absolute with darkness that he desires to kill the very almighty force that created him! All of the tortures of Hell and his eventual final banishment will never change that desire or lighten his heart in the slightest. Satan and the Fallen Angels have absolute envy that we have the chance to be with God and can be spared their fate. Out of spite for God’s creation, they want as much as possible to go to Hell and ultimately into the final banishment with them!

But obviously God must enjoy or at least appreciate Satan's presence. If he didn't, Satan wouldn't be able to reach into God's wonderful creation and interrupt God's plan. You would think God would want to protect his plan, unless of course having billions of people suffering eternally IS the plan. I find that the more likely scenario.

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I am only mankind like you and, no matter how inspired, all of our language is limited in expressing some things. It reminds me of a wise saying that “half of communications is miscommunications because of a misunderstanding of the feeling of what is said.” It is my hope that you feel in your heart what I’m saying because I cannot write or paint a dark enough picture of what I’m feeling about it. Further, through striving for humility on his path, God makes me know that feeling is limited because as Mankind I am limited in what I can truly know and feel.

If you can't express your feelings with words, you shouldn't be here typing them to us. That's what people invented language for.

Hermes, I'm done after he decides to preach again and not actually answer my questions.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline GotMooo

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2008, 06:18:20 PM »
God created Lucifer.  It is an intentional design flaw to create a creature that will hate you and want to destroy you.  (A design flaw to our standards, maybe God needed some excitement in his infinite life?)  The Judeo-Christian God is all-powerful and all-knowing.  He (God is a male of course!) is able to make the rules and create morality and therefore, whatever he creates, is what he wants.

A popular argument is God doesn't want puppets or robots.  But how can a perfect being create imperfect creations?  It is illogical.  If you are perfect, you can't have it any other way.  Therefore you can't be all-powerful in the sense of being capable of creating imperfections.  The argument to this is, well he created logic so he is able to defy the laws he created for us to follow.  Of course God has been designed to conveniently fit outside of any reasonable criticism, so science can't get anywhere near him.  Otherwise superstitious belief in the supernatural such as a God or Gods would have failed long ago.  And saying that we just can't understand God is not going to fly in a world where some people like to use what supposedly your master gave them.  In my mind, it is a sin to passively accept so many logical fallacies from a God who isn't consistent with his own creations.

If God created logic and is above all the laws he created, then why did he create them and why doesn't he always follow them?  Sounds like a double standard to me.  It just doesn't make any sense not following rules you set for others.  It's a lousy precedent to set.

Then the argument goes, well he is God so whatever he says is right.  It just sounds like the perfect way to avoid any argument and get your way on EVERYTHING!  This argument can be used by anyone of any God they wish to create, therefore providing no merit for Christianity.  If the real God wants to distinguish the real religion, it'll be found.  But it never is!  Instead your God is willing to let people go to hell due to their lack of information or understanding.  All in the name of free will!  Truly your God must know that language isn't perfect and that we all can misunderstand or totally miss valid information for unintentional reasons.

These arguments are clever, and have been used for thousands of years.  However the logical fallacies and the hundreds of contradictions found certainly aren't compliant with the universe with which your creator has created for us.  Therefore I find it to be dismissed.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2008, 06:20:53 PM »
Hermes, I'm done after he decides to preach again and not actually answer my questions.

Thanks for the effort.  I'm just sick of the BS pontificating.  I'll let Pat Condell sum it up for me;



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Faith is non-negotiable, so where exactly is the debate? You obey the rules of reason; religion ignores them, and neutralises your argument before you've even opened your mouth. It's not interested in anything you've got to say.  It's just waiting for you to draw breath so it can say: "Yes, that's all very well, but you've still got to submit because it's written in this book."

Why debate dogma?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5cXWElb-GE[/youtube]

Transcript: http://stage.dotsub.com/view/3b95169f-8aa5-40d3-9120-fc214fe8f416




Bonus Pat ...

Why does faith deserve respect?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg[/youtube]

"That's so convenient, it's almost modern."

Note: I'd split "respect" into both "courtesy" (manners and public attitudes) and "respect" (true personal respect for someone you admire).  So, respect is not a given ... and courtesy is a given till that is violated by someone who shows they will not return that courtesy.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline gold_digging_ants

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2008, 03:49:19 AM »
I don't really feel like reading walls of text, but I've gathered from the responses that your argument wasn't very persuasive.

The reason I looked at this thread at all was that I wondered "why would we send a message far and wide for others to ponder if we didn't think it was worthwhile and/ or true"?
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But the Bible has so many uses! After all, that very thin paper is perfect for origami, for starting fires, for using as a replacement coffee filter...
A friend of mine, on Facebook chat.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »
I don't really feel like reading walls of text, but I've gathered from the responses that your argument wasn't very persuasive.

You didn't miss a thing.

The OP is oblivious to anything said by anyone else.  It's like asking directions to a gas station, and being told that Barny the purple dinosaur loves you.

The reason I looked at this thread at all was that I wondered "why would we send a message far and wide for others to ponder if we didn't think it was worthwhile and/ or true"?

Probably plagiarized.  I didn't check.  [checks]  No evidence yet.  That bit of insanity was home made, like an apple pie made with leaches.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline gold_digging_ants

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2008, 06:51:05 AM »
It's like asking directions to a gas station, and being told that Barny the purple dinosaur loves you.

You were that close to making me spray my drink out my nose, all over my mother's keyboard.   ;D  Thanks!
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But the Bible has so many uses! After all, that very thin paper is perfect for origami, for starting fires, for using as a replacement coffee filter...
A friend of mine, on Facebook chat.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Please read and send this message far and wide for others to ponder. [#727]
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 06:52:20 AM »
I'll try harder next time!   ;)
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer