Author Topic: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?  (Read 225 times)

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Offline stuffin

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »
Greed and altruism, to my mind, go hand in hand as they both come out of our selfish gene.

Our selfish gene defaults to cooperation as that is the best survival technique. Competition might kill us while cooperation does not.

If we are cooperating with the environment and hoarding food for the winter, that can be seen as greed but I would just say it is common sense.

It would become greed if the owner does not share with his fellow cave dwellers and lets them starve to death but that would mean that they are ignoring their tribal instincts and the rest of the tribe would likely reject them from the tribe.

You have quite the list of human instincts that pop up. If fear is the first as you say, I can likely agree with that since insecurity for the weakest animal on the planet would certainly be fearful, but that fear is expressed by cooperation as the primary or best method to survival.

That seems to be what research is showing. I admit to being a bit loose and flexible with terms and try to get away from semantics but have a look at this clip to see if what I said was correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

Regards
DL

Although tempting, I'm not convinced by that 60 minute piece. For one thing, researchers can and frequently have their own greedy goals. For another, those babies were 5 and 6 months old, already with some learned behaviors, very questionable how much they have already seen and/or learned affected their choices (an instinct is something which cannot be overridden). Plus, there was not a 100% same choice by the babies every time. Granted the rates were high, >75%, but they didn't explain why the other babies didn't make the Altruistic choice. Make us see what they want us to see?

I did find the older kids choices intriguing.

It is rather intriguing.

I cannot explain why 1/4 of the babies did not follow the general trend.

I applied logic and reason to what the results were and from a survival POV. I can see where cooperation would be seen or used by our instincts as the better survival tactic which would surround us with friends instead of competition tactic that would create enemies or losers to those competitions and have us have enemies around us.

Regards
DL

Could it be we learned both behaviors (Altruistic and Greed) and use them discriminately based on situations? For instance, if there is more benefit to the human by sharing (Altruistic) we would chose that, or, if our outcome would be better based not sharing (Greed), we would chose that.



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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2018, 04:05:37 PM »
I think we should talk about how the world poverty rate has been on a steady, steep decline over the past few decades thanks to socialism.


I know of no true socialist country, I see us all living in oligarchies, but that aside, we have indeed made great strides against poverty, in spite of the great inequality in the most affluent nations.

Pulling someone out of poverty and making working poor is not the best we can do if the rich would share.

You cannot deny the stats I put in the O.P.

Regards
DL

What is the goal then? What is the solution?
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2018, 04:16:12 PM »
I think we should talk about how the world poverty rate has been on a steady, steep decline over the past few decades thanks to socialism.


I know of no true socialist country, I see us all living in oligarchies, but that aside, we have indeed made great strides against poverty, in spite of the great inequality in the most affluent nations.

Pulling someone out of poverty and making working poor is not the best we can do if the rich would share.

You cannot deny the stats I put in the O.P.

Regards
DL

What is the goal then? What is the solution?

Generating the political will somehow. talking about it is the first step to that I guess, hence this thread.

I just picked these up which indicates some real solutions, if we can find politicians with balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmKZNPdWzq4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kqdx3ft77Y

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »


Could it be we learned both behaviors (Altruistic and Greed) and use them discriminately based on situations? For instance, if there is more benefit to the human by sharing (Altruistic) we would chose that, or, if our outcome would be better based not sharing (Greed), we would chose that.

As I said above, I do not see much of a difference between our selfish gene/greedy gene. The selfish gene seeks to make friends as it is the better way to survive than competition which would create a loser and potential enemy. The greed part is accumulating cash and goods that we would then use the same way by buying friends.

I recall some time ago going to a fine restaurant with a guy a lot better off than I. When we were leaving, he said that he would not support that restaurant any longer because the head waiter had forgotten his name. IOW the friend he thought he had bought dis not act the way a bought friend should.

To the main issue. I just put 2 links just above. Please view them if you have the time.

Regards
DL 

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2018, 04:39:48 PM »
Okay. So basically, we the people need to take more taxes from large corporations. Problem is, large corporations spend millions on political campaigns to ensure their profit.

Solution? 
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Online One Above All

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2018, 04:41:38 PM »
Okay. So basically, we the people need to take more taxes from large corporations. Problem is, large corporations spend millions on political campaigns to ensure their profit.

Solution?

Get laws that protect against corruption and hold politicians accountable for being puppets.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2018, 04:48:24 PM »
Really!!

To the point where even scientists are having a hard time explaining it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

You know, generally speaking, the more difficult it becomes to explain a claim, the less confidence you ought to put into accepting that claim.

It just sounds like you're saying "This claim is so true that people are having a hard time explaining it," which sounds pretty ridiculous.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2018, 04:51:06 PM »
Okay. So basically, we the people need to take more taxes from large corporations. Problem is, large corporations spend millions on political campaigns to ensure their profit.

Solution?

Get laws that protect against corruption and hold politicians accountable for being puppets.

There are already laws. Problem is that some people have enough money and influence to side step the laws. Do a little dance, throw some money around...you know the deal.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 04:52:37 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2018, 05:53:37 PM »
Okay. So basically, we the people need to take more taxes from large corporations. Problem is, large corporations spend millions on political campaigns to ensure their profit.

Solution?

It has to be political and just look at who just gave corporations a huge tax windfall.

You cannot clean a swamp by adding water and floating garbage.

You get what you elect.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2018, 05:55:15 PM »
Really!!

To the point where even scientists are having a hard time explaining it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

You know, generally speaking, the more difficult it becomes to explain a claim, the less confidence you ought to put into accepting that claim.

It just sounds like you're saying "This claim is so true that people are having a hard time explaining it," which sounds pretty ridiculous.

If you do not see the evidence, you are blind.

Regards
DL

Offline albeto

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2018, 06:33:37 PM »
Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?

How are you defining and measuring "altruistic instinct" in this context? What determines who is "rich and powerful"? Is it only in comparison to global wealth, or are you including community dynamics that could not compete globally but nevertheless effect smaller communities?

Humans are the most altruistic and good of all the animal species,

Thus far in the discussion there is still nothing more than conjecture on your part. The "most good"? How on earth are you defining and measuring "good"?

yet at present, our rich and powerful allow the poorest of us to starve to death by hoarding their wealth.

The historical record shows this tendency is not new by any means.

This is unheard of in the animal world.

So? What's the connection you're trying to make here?

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2

Can you summarize your own arguments here?

Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

How did you come to this conclusion? How did you determine what "the best of their ability" looked like? Does this include all ancient cultures? How ancient are you going? Keeping in mind there is generally no single trend or behavior that is universal to all cultures across the globe, do you really mean to suggest 100% of ancient cultures somehow all shared the value of taking care of the poor "to the best of their ability"? What evidence can you share that shows this? Wouldn't taking care of the poor "to the best of one's ability" include acting on the idea of helping a group of people increase their own quality of life? Wouldn't that be more in line with an altruistic character?

In the past, the rank and file demanded that the rich and powerful live up to that good altruistic trait by revolting against them.

What possible evidence might you have for this claim? Not what is your logical thought-process, but what objective evidence can you show? This is on par with the offensive notion that African Americans appreciated the quality of life and opportunities given them under legalized slavery. The reason supposedly was because they didn't have to bother with paying rent or finding a good doctor, the master of the land would take care of their physical needs and they were happy to do their fair share of work to balance it out. The Noble Savage rewriting of history is rather disgusting, imo.

The French Revolution is a good example of this.

lolwut?

Have the rank and file lost their altruistic and good characters by allowing the rich and powerful to let people starve to death while doing nothing?

Again, how do you measure this loss of altruism? By what metric? What was the comparison from before to now? What era are you considering "before" to be? Which culture, or all cultures across the globe?

Are the notions of liberty, equality, and fraternity dead in the world?

This is silly. Did you imagine the United States just switched out midterm elections for cage fighting matches? Did you really miss all notions of liberty or peace during this entire episode? Do you believe lawsuits against states and state representatives for voter fraud have no notions of equality? Do you think no one wants voter rights to be protected? Are you claiming no one cares anymore? I mean, come on man. Even for hyperbole, this is goofy.

Is mankind at the point of losing the altruistic instincts that has made us the greatest animal that the world has ever produced?

"Greatest" in which regard, precisely? Are you aware that humans are not unique with regard to altruistic, reciprocal, compassionate behavior, namely all the things we use to judge morality?

Regards
DL

This sounds like weird fear-mongering to me. What's your end-game here? What was the point of bringing these ideas up?