Author Topic: Pesce and Destro 's book about Why Christians NEVER agreed about Jesus  (Read 53 times)

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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This is a book in Italian.

Now that it is becoming clear that the early Christians never agreed what Jesus said or meant, Pesce and Destro attempt an explanation.

Their answer is geographical, that Jesus was remembered differently in different areas.

That is probably true for the sects since there were so few Christians meeting in different houses in different towns, but would it apply to sayings of the historical Jesus?

It would involve the assumptions
that people cared what Jesus said
that people preserved accurately what Jesus said for two generations
that Mark visited the areas and asked the general population what they remembered
that Mark was trying to write history and report accurately the sayings he heard

Since no one claimed Jesus was the messiah while he was alive and Mark was writing his own personal ideology, the assumptions fail to account for the fact the earliest Christians did not agree what Jesus said.

The authors or someone else should check more closely whether the geography in Mark is a fictional background for Mark's ideology, since the framework is very simple: start in Galilee and go to Jerusalem, set the scene in Galilee and undermine the disciples on the journey and in Jerusalem.

A better explanation is that Jesus never had any coherent teaching whatsoever and that he was just a rambling troublemaker. Each sect would have recreated Jesus in their own image based on the OT as an ideal of what he should have said and did. The sects which became dominant started with the image which Saint Saul gave them, and Jesus was assimilated to Saint Saul as a wandering teacher and miracle worker like Saint Saul himself.

We don't have a first hand account of how the disciples' sect self promoted their own image and used the historical Jesus, only the writings of people who ignored and undermined the disciples. Saint Saul claimed to be taught by no man and not dependent on the disciples. As the sects built their images of Jesus and diverged, Mark wrote to undermine the authority and self promotion of the disciples, making Jesus peaceful and pro Roman like Saint Saul. Jesus Barabbas, (Jesus son of the father) became the enemy.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Pesce and Destro 's book about Why Christians NEVER agreed about Jesus
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 12:09:42 PM »
A better explanation is that Jesus never had any coherent teaching whatsoever and that he was just a rambling troublemaker. Each sect would have recreated Jesus in their own image based on the OT as an ideal of what he should have said and did. The sects which became dominant started with the image which Saint Saul gave them, and Jesus was assimilated to Saint Saul as a wandering teacher and miracle worker like Saint Saul himself.

It doesn't make sense to me that one specific preacher would have been singled out as *the* one who had the right message to pass along. There were arguably far more popular self-identified messiahs and leaders during this era, what would it have been about this guy that preserved him in lore? And why, when so many of his messages were simply repeats of earlier, familiar messages?

It makes more sense to me that it started with Paul. The visions, the evangelizing, the new rituals, the new interpretation of old scripture, new understanding of the high priest, etc. A very charismatic person can start all kinds of beliefs if they come along at the right time and play it right. Consider Joseph Smith of Mormon fame. No one expects he actually found seer stones (except those who believe it in faith), and yet the religion thrives because of his salesmanship and ability to interest a lot of people at once.

I think the point of geography and each sect passing along their own version of the gospel makes the most sense. It explains why the books eventually canonized into the bible have such a hodgepodge feel to them, why so many different dogmas are identified and supported. In this region infant baptism was practiced, in that region women were included in the clergy, in the region over there they never heard of "free will" and advocated predestination. A few centuries later and a counsel of bishops decide which stories are divinely inspired and ever since, the xian community has been trying to figure out how to reconcile opposing dogma, opposing doctrine, and opposing ideas of the history and character of this Jesus fella who supposedly raised these issues for the first time.