Author Topic: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.  (Read 474 times)

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« on: November 20, 2018, 12:27:15 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/19/politics/ivanka-trump-personal-email-account/index.html

Quote
Ivanka Trump used personal account for emails about government business
By Kate Sullivan, CNN

Updated 5:33 AM ET, Tue November 20, 2018

Washington (CNN)Ivanka Trump last year used a personal email account to discuss or relay official White House business, according to emails released by a nonpartisan watchdog group.

The Washington Post reported Monday the White House conducted an investigation into Trump's email usage and that she used her personal email address for much of 2017.

According to emails released by the watchdog group, American Oversight, Trump used her personal account to email Cabinet officials, White House aides and assistants. The Presidential Records Act requires all official White House communications and records be preserved.

Austin Evers, the executive director of American Oversight, said in a statement, "The president's family is not above the law, and there are serious questions that Congress should immediately investigate. Did Ivanka Trump turn over all of her emails for preservation as required by law? Was she sending classified information over a private system?"
The White House had no comment on Ivanka Trump's email practices.

Trump's usage of a private email account will bring comparisons to former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, whose usage of a private email server instead of a government email account during her time in office was a central part of President Donald Trump's campaign against her in 2016. Trump's supporters often chanted -- and still do, on occasion -- "Lock her up!" at the mention of Clinton, and President Donald Trump has frequently accused Clinton of receiving special treatment because she was not charged for skirting the Presidential Records Act with her email practices.

The Post reported Ivanka Trump's attorney, Abbe Lowell, forwarded all the emails he believed were related to official government business to her government email account. Lowell believed that would rectify any violations of records law.
Peter Mirijanian, the spokesperson for Lowell and ethics counsel for Ivanka Trump, said in a statement, "Like most people, before entering into government service, Ms. Trump used a private email. When she entered the government, she was given a government email account for official use. While transitioning into government, until the White House  provided her the same guidance they had to others who started before she did, Ms. Trump sometimes used her private account, almost always for logistics and scheduling concerning her family."

Some advisers to President Trump were alarmed when they heard this news, the Post reports, because of the similarities to Clinton's email use. Trump has called Clinton "Crooked Hillary" for using a personal email account when she was secretary of state.

Mirijanian sought to draw a specific contrast between Ivanka Trump's personal email usage and Clinton's, by noting that she did not have the server set up in her home or office.

"To address misinformation being peddled about Ms. Trump's personal email, she did not create a private server in her house or office, there was never classified information transmitted,  the account was never transferred or housed at Trump Organization, no emails were ever deleted, and the emails have been retained in the official account in conformity with records preservation laws and rules," Mirijanian's statement continues.
White House officials were first made aware of Ivanka Trump's email usage through American Oversight's lawsuit, according to the Post.

Evers added, "For more than two years, President Trump and senior leaders in Congress have made it very clear that they view the use of personal email servers for government business to be a serious offense that demands investigation and even prosecution, and we expect the same standard will be applied in this case."

This is story has been updated.
CNN's Kara Scannell contributed to this report.

Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?
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Offline Jag

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 01:01:03 PM »
I think hypocrisy and double speak are features of this administration, not bugs.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline jdawg70

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 01:52:24 PM »
Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?

If a very long, thorough investigation concludes that Ivanka did nothing wrong, then I'd probably accept that conclusion, though certainly it would depend on the specifics.

On what basis do you think Hillary Clinton should have been charged (and, specifically, what charge are we talking about here)?  What aspects from that investigation led you to conclude that she should have been charged with a crime?

And do you honestly think that the legality of the circumstances is the most interesting aspect of this story?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 02:50:18 PM »
Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?

And do you honestly think that the legality of the circumstances is the most interesting aspect of this story?

Yes. It's the only aspect that matters to me. I'll have to get back to you on your other question when I get home but I will say that I was shocked when Comey claimed that no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges against Hillary. I still don't understand his reasoning but it seems to me that based upon his logic...no reasonable person would bring charges against Ivanka either.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 03:05:45 PM »
Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?

And do you honestly think that the legality of the circumstances is the most interesting aspect of this story?

Yes. It's the only aspect that matters to me.
I suspected that was the case.  Mr. Blackwell, I'm generally not one to throw Youtube videos at someone for purposes of discussion or argumentation, but I have been thinking that the following video is something that you ought to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAbab8aP4_A

While I recommend watching his entire Alt-right playbook series, this particular one, I think, may help you understand why I find your focus on 'only caring about the legality' to be somewhat problematic.  I also think the video may help you understand some of the frustration some of us have expressed to you in the past regarding 'bothsiderism'.

It is a long-ish video (nearly 20 minutes) but I think it's worthwhile for you.  Perhaps not.  I grant you it is a bit tangential to this whole conversation so don't feel like you need to watch the video prior to continuing this discussion.  And of course if you don't wanna watch it you don't have to.  But I do urge you to.

Quote
I'll have to get back to you on your other question when I get home but I will say that I was shocked when Comey claimed that no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges against Hillary. I still don't understand his reasoning but it seems to me that based upon his logic...no reasonable person would bring charges against Ivanka either.
Even in light of the whole butteremails schtick going on the for the past few years that one would reasonably assume ought to make expectations of caution regarding e-mail use in government higher?  I find it weird that you would expect basically the same expectation of responsibility between Hillary Clinton in 2015/2016 as you would of Ivanka Trump 2017/2018.  As if Ivanka Trump was somehow unaware of the entire butteremails thing and should also be assessed on the same level of 'carelessness but not criminally so'.  I mean, there was a big hubbub in Clinton's case that made national news, like, all the time.  Surely Ivanka was privy to some of the goings on there.  I could see making the case (and it seems to be the case with both Comey (in 83 pages) and the entire DOJ (in 500+ pages)) that the carelessness did not meet the standards of criminality.  But in light of the multi-year, multi-department investigation of Hillary Clinton's e-mails, you think that Ivanka could make the same case?  It is extremely difficult to accept an excuse from Ivanka that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong.  There are thousands of pages of notes over the past few years indicating that 'yes, we think this is probably wrong'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Nick

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 03:27:05 PM »
Clinton's emails were not hacked.  No gov information leaked from there.  Don't know about Ivanka but it does not matter.  Jared has most likely already shared all our secret info with Russia and the Saudies.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2018, 03:37:35 PM »
Clinton's emails were not hacked.  No gov information leaked from there.  Don't know about Ivanka but it does not matter.  Jared has most likely already shared all our secret info with Russia and the Saudies.

I don't believe Jared and Ivanka could do that, Trump himself has already dished out everything the Russians and Saudis need to know, so it doesn't make any sense for them to share critical information.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2018, 03:39:42 PM »
Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?

If a very long, thorough investigation concludes that Ivanka did nothing wrong, then I'd probably accept that conclusion, though certainly it would depend on the specifics.

On what basis do you think Hillary Clinton should have been charged (and, specifically, what charge are we talking about here)?  What aspects from that investigation led you to conclude that she should have been charged with a crime?

And do you honestly think that the legality of the circumstances is the most interesting aspect of this story?

How long of an investigation do you think will be needed? One year? Two years? Maybe when the Congress flips again?  ;)
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Offline jetson

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 09:04:43 AM »

Where do we go from here? Personally I think Ivanka should be charged. I also thought Hillary should have been charged. But, since Hillary was not charged then I think fair is fair. If Hillary did nothing wrong then Ivanka did nothing wrong.

What do you think?

When it was discovered that HRC was using a private email server, I was concerned and questioned why ANYONE in a government position would be allowed to use a personal email account for their work. In my current job, I would be fired if I used my private email address for actual work email correspondence. My conclusion at the beginning of the HRC discovery was that all government employees should be using a dot gov email address. I was content to see where the legal challenges would go, and I was content when it was discovered that there were no grounds for a serious legal case based on an FBI investigation.

Don't you find it far more compelling to consider that Ivanka had a ringside seat to the EMAILS EMAILS EMAILS, LOCK HER UP LOCK HER UP LOCK HER UP campaign from her own father, while also being literal friends with Chelsea Clinton, and STILL NOT SMART ENOUGH to avoid doing the exact same thing? I mean, how monumentally stupid does one have to be to let that slip by and not expect to be called out?

Here's the thing, I stand by my conclusion that ESPECIALLY after the HRC email battle, there would be a MASSIVE GOP push to lock it all down for good. I mean, since they were the ones all up in arms over HRC in the first place! WTF dude? The GOP has ALL OF THE POWER to stop the use of private emails, yet here we are, the FIRST DAUGHTER to the PRESIDENT doing EXACTLY what they were so pissed off about with Hillary?Why hasn't the GOP leadership come out with FURY and ANGER over this - right now? What are they doing now - asking themselves if it's OK to go after Trump's daughter is my best guess. Fucking cowards and useless old men, the whole pack. They should be losing their collective minds over this, given the way they treated Hillary. But let's be honest, they really never cared about the private server, did they. And you don't either, do you?

That being said, what happened to Hillary was the usual GOP effort to smear her into oblivion on ANYTHING that would stick, even if only in the minds of Americans. They turned the email issue into something that literally caused otherwise sane people to think that Hillary was indeed Satan incarnate. They are still doing it. They have been monumentally successful in taking one of the most qualified people in US history and making her into a boogieman so much that even with millions more votes, she was not able to be our first female president. The GOP has given up every single shred of high ground on EVERY SINGLE issue that is important to anyone with elementary education.


Offline jetson

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2018, 10:19:44 AM »
Update:

Apparently, and I have not researched this, when HRC used a private server, it was not illegal. That law was put into place AFTER she left her position as SOS. The law was changed in 2014 pushed through by the GOP. Thus, it is entirely likely that Ivanka is literally breaking the law - as she is a senior advisor to the POTUS doing official business in the White House.

I'll dig more later...

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2018, 12:09:36 PM »
Update:

Apparently, and I have not researched this, when HRC used a private server, it was not illegal. That law was put into place AFTER she left her position as SOS. The law was changed in 2014 pushed through by the GOP.

<snip>

I'll dig more later...

Got a link or the name of the law?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2018, 12:10:45 PM »
Update:

Apparently, and I have not researched this, when HRC used a private server, it was not illegal. That law was put into place AFTER she left her position as SOS. The law was changed in 2014 pushed through by the GOP.

<snip>

I'll dig more later...

Got a link or the name of the law?

I heard differently, though it may be related. I heard that the information was not top-secret at the time, and only became top-secret afterward.
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Offline Timo

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2018, 12:20:07 PM »
Update:

Apparently, and I have not researched this, when HRC used a private server, it was not illegal. That law was put into place AFTER she left her position as SOS. The law was changed in 2014 pushed through by the GOP. Thus, it is entirely likely that Ivanka is literally breaking the law - as she is a senior advisor to the POTUS doing official business in the White House.

I'll dig more later...

Oh, I need to look into that.

Yeah, my initial impression was basically that Ivanka, her father's administration, and the Republican party writ large are just guilty of wild hypocrisy. Hillary definitely broke federal rules but not necessarily federal laws. Director Comey, who ultimately killed Hillary's presidential bid anyway, said that no reasonable prosecutor would have indicted her. I think all of my lawyer friends agreed with that at the time. So the same is probably true about Ivanka...but I wasn't keeping up on legal changes after the fact, so I don't even know.

In any case, without condoning it, I think Hillary's use of a private email makes a lot more sense than Ivanka's. Ultimately, Hillary's use of it came down to pettiness, I think. She didn't want to use the proprietary federal hardware. She wanted her own special Blackberry like what Obama had made for him. And when she spoke with Colin Powell about it, he let her know that he just used his gmail account. So it makes sense to me that she might not have thought it was that big of a deal, even if there were people telling her she shouldn't do it.

Ivanka doing this after being a part of the 2016 campaign just doesn't make any sense. Illegal or not, this was all hashed out in the press and was a component of multiple investigations. Her father and folks like Michael Flynn said that Clinton ought to have been locked up for doing it. It's crazy to think that anyone will believe them when they say shit like, oh, Ivanka just didn't know. But it just goes to the larger point that the criticism of Clinton was mostly bullshit. The president himself regularly uses unsecured phones. Jared apparently uses WhatsApp to talk to MBS of Saudi Arabia, which doesn't look suspicious at all given that Trump is going out of his way to excuse the murder and torture of a US resident by the Saudi government.

But I digress.

In conclusion, fuck these people.

Nah son...

Offline Timo

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2018, 12:23:25 PM »
I heard differently, though it may be related. I heard that the information was not top-secret at the time, and only became top-secret afterward.

I think that's a different question. There was classified information in the emails on her server that were retroactively classified. Some of them were classified at the time but improperly marked. This was part of the reason that Comey didn't think there was much of a case to be made. He's talking about new laws coming after the investigations had began taking place. Remember, Hillary left State in 2013 when Kerry took over.
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Offline jetson

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2018, 12:44:40 PM »
Additional information,

From: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/mar/12/hillary-clintons-email-did-she-follow-all-rules/
Quote
Additionally, in 2014, President Barack Obama signed changes to the Federal Records Act that explicitly said federal officials can only use personal email addresses if they also copy or send the emails to their official account.

But this is not a complete picture, nor can I find legislation specific to use of dot gov email for government employees. There appear to be exceptions.

As the article states, there are multiple areas involved in how records are kept, and how they can be supplied upon request via FOIA, where the use of personal email that includes a dot gov email address is not satisfactory.

Offline Nick

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2018, 01:36:21 PM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2018, 03:29:14 PM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.

Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2018, 03:59:04 PM »
It only matters what Democrats do; Republicans are immune to error.

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Offline Timo

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2018, 06:20:32 PM »
Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?

I remember the thread where we hashed this out and I never really thought you made a good case for gross negligence, which was the standard that would have to have be met in order to pursue a criminal indictment. Neither of us are lawyers though. But still, every lawyer I've spoken with and most of the lawyers I've seen speaking on this agreed with Comey's decision, even if they didn't like that he gave a press conference, which was a breech of protocol.

In any case, even if we agree for the sake of argument that Clinton was dead to rights and it's legitimately scandalous that she wasn't prosecuted, it would still be the case that Trump has committed and is still committing more serious crimes in office--everything from multiple emoluments violations to obstruction of justice. And that's before you get to the crimes he committed as a private citizen. Namely fraud, tax fraud, campaign finance violations, etc.
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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2018, 11:05:11 PM »
Ivanka hasn't been quite as bad as Clinton, yet, because she hasn't disappeared 30,000 emails that could have been classified, and we know all Ivanka's emails will be about total shit and makeup.

Scaramucci's total calmness about the issue was interesting.




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Offline screwtape

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2018, 08:17:44 AM »
Ivanka hasn't been quite as bad as Clinton, yet, because she hasn't disappeared 30,000 emails that could have been classified,

For what it’s worth, before Hillary, Colin Powell as SoS exclusively used a private account - yahoo I believe - and then deleted every single email when we left the position.  Let’s not get hysterical about “disappearing” emails.  That had been routine.
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Offline Nick

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2018, 10:21:26 AM »
Ivanka hasn't been quite as bad as Clinton, yet, because she hasn't disappeared 30,000 emails that could have been classified,

For what it’s worth, before Hillary, Colin Powell as SoS exclusively used a private account - yahoo I believe - and then deleted every single email when we left the position.  Let’s not get hysterical about “disappearing” emails.  That had been routine.
Dick Cheney did the same.
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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2018, 08:46:38 PM »
Refine this a bit:


Morality is just a way of shaming your opponent. Hypocrisy is when they say you got caught. The only people who worry about getting caught are those not proficient in coming up with another tactic. The means justifies the end. The end is a fiction invented by some bronze age idiot.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2018, 09:13:32 PM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.

Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?

Do laws not have intent?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2018, 06:13:14 PM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.

Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?

Do laws not have intent?

Everything we do hinges on intent. That's how we measure guilt or ignorance. Friction occurs when we attempt to divine intent.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 06:16:33 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2018, 05:04:47 AM »
To me, this highlights that the "BUT HER E-MAILS!" stuff regarding Clinton was not genuine in the first place.

Wouldn't you agree, Mr. B.?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2018, 10:04:17 AM »
To me, this highlights that the "BUT HER E-MAILS!" stuff regarding Clinton was not genuine in the first place.

Wouldn't you agree, Mr. B.?

No. I wouldn't agree. Why do you think this highlights how the investigation into the Clinton emails was not genuine?

Are you suggesting that this is just a political tit for tat?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.

Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?

Do laws not have intent?

Everything we do hinges on intent. That's how we measure guilt or ignorance. Friction occurs when we attempt to divine intent.

Could you expand on what you mean by 'friction' in this context?

And I'm curious how you'd answer your own question: is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?  The question seems incoherent based on your comments regarding intent as the measure of guilt or ignorance.  It just sounds like you're saying the application of law depends on intent.  Asking about relative importance of one vs. the other seems meaningless in that context.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: BUT HER EMAILS! Ivanka Trump addition.
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2018, 11:34:14 AM »
Look at everything Trump has done and will do and we are still all upset with emails.

Is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?

Do laws not have intent?

Everything we do hinges on intent. That's how we measure guilt or ignorance. Friction occurs when we attempt to divine intent.

Could you expand on what you mean by 'friction' in this context?

And I'm curious how you'd answer your own question: is it your personal belief that laws matter less than intent?  The question seems incoherent based on your comments regarding intent as the measure of guilt or ignorance.  It just sounds like you're saying the application of law depends on intent.  Asking about relative importance of one vs. the other seems meaningless in that context.

Friction in this context is, in my mind, relative to Comey's recommendation that Hillary did not intend to break the law. Therefore, no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges against her. Well, I didn't intend to break the law all those times I got speeding tickets. It's not like I knew the speed limit was 55 and thought to myself "fuck it, I'm going to go as fast as I want to."

No.  For us normal folks, intent does not matter. It doesn't matter if you did not file your taxes correctly on purpose or not. It doesn't matter if you knew you were speeding or not. But apparently, it makes a huge difference if you intended to hide your emails from the government or not. So, when Comey stepped out his arena and declared that Hillary didn't intend to circumvent the laws and thus, no one should even bring charges against her because she didn't know what she was doing was not legal, well....that caused friction. It caused so much friction that Hillary boldly declared that she knew exactly what she was doing and that what she did is not illegal. Period.

Jetson mention something about the law being changed. So, if it wasn't illegal for Hillary to use a private server then but it is illegal for Ivanka to use a private server now...I think that is important. The devil is in the details and I haven't seen the devil yet.

What changed? What law? When?

If everything is still the same, legally, then what Ivanka did is no different then what Hillary did. Hillary didn't even have charges brought against her. So, yeah...go ahead and call out the hypocrisy of the right for claiming that Hillary should have been arrested and charged for doing the same thing but dismissing what Ivanka and her husband did.

Yeah, Ivanka should have known that using private email for government business was taboo but other than the lunatic right screaming foul against Hillary, nothing happened. So maybe she thought it was perfectly legal to use private email for government business?


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