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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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The Band Wagon
« on: October 02, 2018, 03:52:41 PM »
We were having a birthday party at a public park for one of my daughters sometime between 2009 and 2012 and out of nowhere Bret Kavanaugh walked up to me and punched me in the face and hit me over the head with a beer bottle then raped my wife. True story. I'm an combat veteran. Why would he do that?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2018, 04:01:01 PM »
If this is meant to be a joke, it's not a very funny one.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 04:05:08 PM »
If this is meant to be a joke, it's not a very funny one.

Neither is being assumed guilty just because someone made an accusation. So, have you stopped beating your wife?

I have stated elsewhere that I do not think he has what it takes to be a supreme court justice but that doesn't have anything to do with the allegations against him.

What is happening right now is not funny at all.

It's scary as hell.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2018, 04:14:03 PM »
And why is it scary for you?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2018, 04:23:22 PM »
And why is it scary for you?

The standards are being redrawn. At this point anyone could claim that I have assaulted or harassed or groped or drank too much in their opinion or raped them and it would now fall upon me to prove a negative.

I never thought I would see the day that Democrats supported gossip and hearsay over facts and evidence.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 04:27:50 PM »
OK, can you document cases where this has been the case?  The Me Too Movement seems to have outed those who were/are guilty.  Kavanova is not on trail.  He is in a job interview and his fitness for the job is in question.  The FBI will find evidence (not that that will matter to the GOP).  If you had to bet 10,000 on who was telling the truth last week...would you put it on Ford or this guy?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2018, 04:43:32 PM »
neither.

Like I said. I believe he is not fit to serve on the supreme court but I haven't seen any proof that he is a serial rapist.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 04:50:03 PM »
Neither was not an option.  If you HAD  to bet 10,000 right know knowing what we know right now...would you put it on Ford or him?
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 05:24:36 PM »
Do you also question the thousands of men who have come forward and said they were molested by priests 30 years ago?  They also lack physical evidence.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
   The first thing that scares me is the band wagon.  What is the band wagon?  Do 51% of Americans think Donald Trump and his values, his Supreme Court nominees, his international views, his views of data and science and laws and women, are indeed the greatest thing ever and he must be elected again to propel the world into a fairer, safe, and just society?

   Or do some 80% of Americans think he is a showman blowhard, not a very thoughtful public speaker, that isn't really even that much of a businessman? (Just look at his yelling and screaming about NAFTA, and what his administration actually came out with this week - not much, changed the name!)  Here is  former Bush Treasury Secretary and Obama advisor Larry Summers:

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/10/02/usmca-trade-deal-china-larry-summers

I wonder who will vote?

   Anyway, I listened to Cavanaugh on the radio at work, and found his opening statement convincing and passionate.  That is all I heard.  Got home, and called my 81 year old mother, who was glued to the total hearings all day.  She said - no way, you must watch the entire questioning and answers from Christine Ford, and watch Brett throughout his  statements and questioning.  After I did that, I found Ms. Ford convincing, really, telling the truth, and Cavanaugh unhinged angry at democrats.  My sister said, after her time working with county social services, liars tend to act this way.  Now he could be telling the truth, meaning he was too drunk to remember, so he lied anyway when he said he has NEVERRRR    BBBLLLAAACCCKKKEEEDDDD   OOOUUUTTT!!!!!!!

   I like boy scouts and girl scouts on the supreme court - they may have differing views, but I like to think we get people with integrity, that care about the truth, in all facets of their lives.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 06:28:17 PM »
If this is meant to be a joke, it's not a very funny one.

Neither is being assumed guilty just because someone made an accusation. So, have you stopped beating your wife?

I have stated elsewhere that I do not think he has what it takes to be a supreme court justice but that doesn't have anything to do with the allegations against him.

What is happening right now is not funny at all.

It's scary as hell.

The assumption comes from the fact that he's unwilling to even have an investigation, despite the allegations and standard protocol, and the fact that he has already committed perjury. Excuse me if I don't trust someone who commits perjury.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 06:57:59 PM by One Above All »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 06:45:20 PM »
Neither was not an option.  If you HAD  to bet 10,000 right know knowing what we know right now...would you put it on Ford or him?

False dichotomy.

1. I don't even have a dollar to bet on something like that.

2. Accusations like this shouldn't be left up to public opinion.

What the Democratic party has done is effectively set up a kangaroo court.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 07:17:55 PM »
   The first thing that scares me is the band wagon.  What is the band wagon?  Do 51% of Americans think Donald Trump and his values, his Supreme Court nominees, his international views, his views of data and science and laws and women, are indeed the greatest thing ever and he must be elected again to propel the world into a fairer, safe, and just society?

I don't know.

Quote
   Or do some 80% of Americans think he is a showman blowhard, not a very thoughtful public speaker, that isn't really even that much of a businessman?

I don't know.

Quote
   Anyway, I listened to Cavanaugh on the radio at work, and found his opening statement convincing and passionate.  That is all I heard.  Got home, and called my 81 year old mother, who was glued to the total hearings all day.  She said - no way, you must watch the entire questioning and answers from Christine Ford, and watch Brett throughout his  statements and questioning.  After I did that, I found Ms. Ford convincing, really, telling the truth, and Cavanaugh unhinged angry at democrats.  My sister said, after her time working with county social services, liars tend to act this way.  Now he could be telling the truth, meaning he was too drunk to remember, so he lied anyway when he said he has NEVERRRR    BBBLLLAAACCCKKKEEEDDDD   OOOUUUTTT!!!!!!!

I found his righteous indignation distasteful and unprofessional but blacking out is hard to do. I am a heavy drinker. Have been for many many years. I have only blacked out once. Passed out plenty of times but there is a difference. When you pass out, you stay down. When you black out, you stay up and continue to do things but your brain is not functioning normally. The amount of alcohol it takes to black out is staggering. For me, it was almost a full liter of Vodka in less than 20 minutes. I don't remember the things I was accused of doing like, howling at the top of my lungs while my friend and I took turns sticking our penises in each others anus while my parents slept through the whole ordeal but that is a different story which was also never fully corroborated but I do remember the next day and even though my friend swears I gave him bleeding hemorrhoids, I never saw or felt any evidence of the activities he described. Just for the record, my penis is average. Not huge.

The important thing is, my girlfriend believed him because she saw me passed out naked after he freaked out and thought I was going to die by chocking on my own vomit. He called her to come over and help hide the body or clean me up. I woke up the next morning wearing a tiny pair of shorts and body paint all over me. Polka dots on my scrotum. That's how I know "something" happened. My girlfriend admitted to cleaning up all my vomit and helping to get me into my bed. She also admitted to painting me while I was passed out.

Again, this took place at my parents house. I was 15 years old. What happened in the time between I blacked out and passed out is a mystery to everyone except the friend who was spending the night and brought the Vodka but that didn't stop him from telling a few people at school his story of me fucking the shit out of him while howling at the top of my lungs while my parents were upstairs and never came to investigate what all the noise was about. You can believe him if you want to but it's his word against mine and I have no memory of the events he described. All I know is that I drank a bunch of Vodka and my asshole felt normal the next day. But, this was 28 years ago and my memory isn't great to begin with.

Quote
   I like boy scouts and girl scouts on the supreme court - they may have differing views, but I like to think we get people with integrity, that care about the truth, in all facets of their lives.

It's fair to say the Kavanough is not much of a boy scout but I don't think Dr. Ford is much of a girl scout either. From all accounts, they both liked to party.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 09:35:34 PM »
Do you also question the thousands of men who have come forward and said they were molested by priests 30 years ago?  They also lack physical evidence.

Sorry, didn't see this comment earlier. Short answer?

Yes.

I question everything. Generally speaking, I have no doubt that some priests molested several boys. I also have no doubt that the higher ups covered it up and tried to pretend none of it ever happened but I do not automatically believe that every single person who has stepped forward with their story of being molested or raped by a Catholic priest is telling the truth.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 09:37:08 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 10:46:21 PM »
I don't care for the way Kavanaugh fell apart under questioning.  And the way he basically threatened revenge on the Democrats.  That is what I find the most scary.  That he is going to be confirmed and his decisions are going to be biased against what a Democrat would want because he is pissed off.  I understand that being falsely accused could make a person very emotional.  But a Supreme Court Justice for Life should be held to a higher standard.  They should be able to keep it together and absolutely not be partisan.  So whether he is guilty or not I don't think he is fit.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Timo

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 04:00:40 AM »
I found his righteous indignation distasteful and unprofessional but blacking out is hard to do. I am a heavy drinker. Have been for many many years. I have only blacked out once. Passed out plenty of times but there is a difference. When you pass out, you stay down. When you black out, you stay up and continue to do things but your brain is not functioning normally. The amount of alcohol it takes to black out is staggering.

That's... not how blackouts work. We're generally talking about blood alcohol level changes and not just alcohol levels when we talk about all of that.

I actually don't know how to articulate this properly. Kavanaugh is a predator. I really don't know what else to say on the matter. What else am I supposed to say on the matter?
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Offline Timo

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 04:25:25 AM »
Also, anyone defending the supposed honor of Judge Kavanaugh needs to explain to me why he fucking lies so much. He lies about things big and small. About obvious things. He's a lot like the president in that way.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 09:10:16 AM »
Do you also question the thousands of men who have come forward and said they were molested by priests 30 years ago?  They also lack physical evidence.

Sorry, didn't see this comment earlier. Short answer?

Yes.

I question everything. Generally speaking, I have no doubt that some priests molested several boys.
The second sentence sounds like the opposite of the first sentence.  How did you arrive to having no doubts that some priests molested several boys?  What caused your questioning of some priests molesting several boys to cease and for you to form a solid conclusion that some priests have molested several boys?

Quote
I also have no doubt that the higher ups covered it up and tried to pretend none of it ever happened but I do not automatically believe that every single person who has stepped forward with their story of being molested or raped by a Catholic priest is telling the truth.
How do you make the determination of whose accusations you believe and whose accusations you do not believe?  You clearly seem to be able to make such distinctions, and I'm assuming that you don't do any independent investigation of physical evidence in each of these cases prior to you forming some manner of opinion on whether or not to believe a person who steps forward with their story of being molested or raped by a Catholic priest.  Is this more of a percentage thing, as in, like, you're assuming that x percent[1] of accusers must be giving false testimony, or that x percent of those accused must be innocent?

I guess...did you feel the same need to make a mockery of accusations against the priests and church in the same way you made a mockery of accusations against Kavanaugh?  You seem to be treating these two circumstances differently, and I'm wondering if it's because one specifically involves politics.  Or you're not treating them differently and my perception is off.  It just seems like you give Kavanaugh a higher degree of the benefit of the doubt over priests of the Catholic church.
 1. Where x is greater than 0.
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Offline jetson

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2018, 07:12:25 AM »
We were having a birthday party at a public park for one of my daughters sometime between 2009 and 2012 and out of nowhere Bret Kavanaugh walked up to me and punched me in the face and hit me over the head with a beer bottle then raped my wife. True story. I'm an combat veteran. Why would he do that?

That's who he is, so no surprise. Now, why would you openly lie about such an event when you know it never happened? And by proxy, what makes you think that your lie somehow means that Dr. Ford should not come forward and share her truth?

You claim a Kangaroo court from the Democrats, when the reality is the opposite. I can't believe you get sucked into such BS so easily.

Offline One Above All

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2018, 07:14:00 AM »
We were having a birthday party at a public park for one of my daughters sometime between 2009 and 2012 and out of nowhere Bret Kavanaugh walked up to me and punched me in the face and hit me over the head with a beer bottle then raped my wife. True story. I'm an combat veteran. Why would he do that?

That's who he is, so no surprise. Now, why would you openly lie about such an event when you know it never happened? And by proxy, what makes you think that your lie somehow means that Dr. Ford should not come forward and share her truth?

You claim a Kangaroo court from the Democrats, when the reality is the opposite. I can't believe you get sucked into such BS so easily.

That's how the right gets votes - by appealing to emotion and logical fallacies. I've yet to hear of a right-wing government that didn't get elected through demagoguery.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 03:16:27 AM »
Funny how this thread got dropped.  What about the fact that Kavanaugh lies so much?  What motivates those lies?
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Offline jetson

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 06:10:18 AM »
Funny how this thread got dropped.  What about the fact that Kavanaugh lies so much?  What motivates those lies?

We can't jump to obvious conclusions, ya know! After all, this is a middle-aged white male in the United States, one of the most discriminated against groups in the history of humans said no one. Ever.

Kavanaugh has a past that is probably not all that uncommon. Yet we are supposed to forget all about that past because he is a nominee. Apparently the fact that one is a nominee means they must be given all benefit of doubt regardless of any accusation.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 08:38:52 AM »
I'll be honest, I am skeptical about what happened here. Using my experience of high school/college I can piece together something that I don't necessarily consider rape or even attempted rape. One thing that does worry me about some of the allegations that have come out recently are that it seems that trying to sleep with someone is being equated with attempted rape at the worst case or inappropriate in the best case.

If Kavanaugh and Ford were both at a party drinking, and maybe they get physical and perhaps are kissing and making their way to a bedroom, they get there and Brett wants to take it further and she doesn't. He goes for articles of clothing, she says no or resists and he gives up and goes back to the party. Is that attempted rape? Now obviously putting a hand over her mouth would change the dynamics.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I do see that different from approaching a women in a dark parking lot and forcing yourself on her. If these are the same please show me where I error.

I have known of situations where a girl or young woman has slept with several people at a setting. Hell, I've been victim to what some would consider rape in that I've drunk too much and ended up doing something I wouldn't have done sober, and she was sober. I made a poor decision while drunk. If I go out drinking and then decide to drive and something happens I have to take responsibility for my drunk decisions, correct?

I do believe this is different from the Catholic Church rapes in that in those situations we're talking about a power dynamic. So those situations are more like the Harvey Weinstein thing or even Bill Clinton.

Far be it for me to defend this clown Kavanaugh, but I think we need to have a real conversation about sexual assault and rape because it is extremely one sided right now and the results of a false accusation can be catastrophic.

Offline stuffin

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 10:09:16 AM »
I'll be honest, I am skeptical about what happened here. Using my experience of high school/college I can piece together something that I don't necessarily consider rape or even attempted rape. One thing that does worry me about some of the allegations that have come out recently are that it seems that trying to sleep with someone is being equated with attempted rape at the worst case or inappropriate in the best case.

If Kavanaugh and Ford were both at a party drinking, and maybe they get physical and perhaps are kissing and making their way to a bedroom, they get there and Brett wants to take it further and she doesn't. He goes for articles of clothing, she says no or resists and he gives up and goes back to the party. Is that attempted rape? Now obviously putting a hand over her mouth would change the dynamics.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I do see that different from approaching a women in a dark parking lot and forcing yourself on her. If these are the same please show me where I error.

I have known of situations where a girl or young woman has slept with several people at a setting. Hell, I've been victim to what some would consider rape in that I've drunk too much and ended up doing something I wouldn't have done sober, and she was sober. I made a poor decision while drunk. If I go out drinking and then decide to drive and something happens I have to take responsibility for my drunk decisions, correct?

I do believe this is different from the Catholic Church rapes in that in those situations we're talking about a power dynamic. So those situations are more like the Harvey Weinstein thing or even Bill Clinton.

Far be it for me to defend this clown Kavanaugh, but I think we need to have a real conversation about sexual assault and rape because it is extremely one sided right now and the results of a false accusation can be catastrophic.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2018, 10:10:33 AM »
I'll be honest, I am skeptical about what happened here. Using my experience of high school/college I can piece together something that I don't necessarily consider rape or even attempted rape. One thing that does worry me about some of the allegations that have come out recently are that it seems that trying to sleep with someone is being equated with attempted rape at the worst case or inappropriate in the best case.

If Kavanaugh and Ford were both at a party drinking, and maybe they get physical and perhaps are kissing and making their way to a bedroom, they get there and Brett wants to take it further and she doesn't. He goes for articles of clothing, she says no or resists and he gives up and goes back to the party. Is that attempted rape? Now obviously putting a hand over her mouth would change the dynamics.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I do see that different from approaching a women in a dark parking lot and forcing yourself on her. If these are the same please show me where I error.

I have known of situations where a girl or young woman has slept with several people at a setting. Hell, I've been victim to what some would consider rape in that I've drunk too much and ended up doing something I wouldn't have done sober, and she was sober. I made a poor decision while drunk. If I go out drinking and then decide to drive and something happens I have to take responsibility for my drunk decisions, correct?

I do believe this is different from the Catholic Church rapes in that in those situations we're talking about a power dynamic. So those situations are more like the Harvey Weinstein thing or even Bill Clinton.

Far be it for me to defend this clown Kavanaugh, but I think we need to have a real conversation about sexual assault and rape because it is extremely one sided right now and the results of a false accusation can be catastrophic.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 10:45:28 AM »
Feel free to type it out again. If I am wrong I definitely need to be corrected.

Offline albeto

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2018, 01:31:37 PM »
I'll be honest, I am skeptical about what happened here. Using my experience of high school/college I can piece together something that I don't necessarily consider rape or even attempted rape.

Using my experience with high school/college/family full of privileged, wealthy, white young men, I'm familiar with too many stories just like this and worse to count this one out. But these are my experiences and those are your experiences and neither of us should conflate ours with Ford's.

Quote
One thing that does worry me about some of the allegations that have come out recently are that it seems that trying to sleep with someone is being equated with attempted rape at the worst case or inappropriate in the best case.

This age-old, time-honored image of the dangerous woman has evolved over the years. Women have been accused of being a Jezebel to being a witch to taking jobs from men, gleefully killing our babies, and now we are wantonly accusing men of violent crimes for self-gain or to appease regret. This trope only functions to reinforce the fear that the proud or independent woman will upset society. If only we kept our place in the kitchen, the conspiracy goes, the world would be a safer place. I would encourage you to refer to Wright's post here that starts the conversation off about the reality of false accusations.

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If Kavanaugh and Ford were both at a party drinking, and maybe they get physical and perhaps are kissing and making their way to a bedroom, they get there and Brett wants to take it further and she doesn't. He goes for articles of clothing, she says no or resists and he gives up and goes back to the party. Is that attempted rape? Now obviously putting a hand over her mouth would change the dynamics.

Indeed. But even if he didn't, her testimony illustrated sexual assault.

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Perhaps I am wrong, but I do see that different from approaching a women in a dark parking lot and forcing yourself on her. If these are the same please show me where I error.

Rape is sexual activity without consent. One does not deserve consent, one should never feel that consent is owed them. Consent can be and often is revoked at any time a woman or man feels uncomfortable or in danger or for any reason at all. By Ford's testimony, she did not regret an encounter with Kavanaugh because she never consented to it in the first place.

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I have known of situations where a girl or young woman has slept with several people at a setting. Hell, I've been victim to what some would consider rape in that I've drunk too much and ended up doing something I wouldn't have done sober, and she was sober. I made a poor decision while drunk. If I go out drinking and then decide to drive and something happens I have to take responsibility for my drunk decisions, correct?

It sounds like you're assuming most people conflate rape with regret. It sounds horrific when priests say this about the teenagers and children they groom and assault, but is somehow fair game when used against women.

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I do believe this is different from the Catholic Church rapes in that in those situations we're talking about a power dynamic. So those situations are more like the Harvey Weinstein thing or even Bill Clinton.

Because coerced consent is not consent, whether by physical force or power dynamics.

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Far be it for me to defend this clown Kavanaugh, but I think we need to have a real conversation about sexual assault and rape because it is extremely one sided right now and the results of a false accusation can be catastrophic.

I disagree profoundly that it is one sided now. It sounds as if you are concerned women suddenly have, or will soon have power en masse because a few high-profile events have unloaded a barrage of copy-cat accusers to start targeting men who won't be believed because fuck men. The most recent studies available suggest 15-20% of women in the US will be the victims of rape at least once in her lifetime, and that statistic is likely much higher as we know the crime of rape is grossly under reported (wiki). One study showed police departments may eliminate or undercount rapes from official records to foster the appearance of successfully fighting violent crimes. Reports suggest between 2% and 10% of accusations of rape are concluded by law officials to be false (wiki).

I think rather men are starting to feel vulnerable for the first time. Men have always enjoyed the privilege of believability and advantage of the silence of the women and men they assault. Now this privilege is being called into question; it is starting to be denied. Meanwhile, women are still very unlikely to report, and statistically overwhelmingly unlikely to see any recourse for having reported sexual assault. Melania Trump even said women should have lots of hard evidence if they claim assault. Good god, that's as bad as the muslims who demand four eye-witnesses to even consider such a claim. What a fantastically effective way to shame the victim and keep her or him silent.



[edit: ugh, typos]
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 02:40:19 PM by albeto »

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2018, 02:38:24 PM »
I'm on my phone right now and cannot point by point respond. Which is probably for the better because now you have an opportunity to go back and respond to what I actually said and not what you want to argue against.

Offline albeto

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Re: The Band Wagon
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2018, 03:08:41 PM »
I'm on my phone right now and cannot point by point respond. Which is probably for the better because now you have an opportunity to go back and respond to what I actually said and not what you want to argue against.

I wish you could see how condescending and passive aggressive this comment appears to me. I don't know if that's your intent or not but now all I can think about is the Honeymooners and "One of these days, Alice!"

You and I have never had problems before, and I have always considered you to be a knowledgeable and fair-minded member here. I should hope if we continue this conversation we can do so systematically and reasonably. If I've misinterpreted or misrepresented what you've said, or if I've run down an unrelated bunny trail, I would have expected you to simply point that out where applicable. But this "probably for the better" business is really throwing me off.