Author Topic: So is there evidence that homosexuality/transgenderism isn't a mental illness?  (Read 705 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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One thing they have gotten right is the push by media to include what turns out to be an over representation of the non-normative genders.

Could you provide a specific example (like a show or a movie or something) of where you see what you would consider overrepresentation of those in the LGBTQ community?
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Offline Kayback

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One thing they have gotten right is the push by media to include what turns out to be an over representation of the non-normative genders.

Could you provide a specific example (like a show or a movie or something) of where you see what you would consider overrepresentation of those in the LGBTQ community?

Riverdale.

While we are only just starting Season 2 the gay and bisexual population is in excess of the reported 5%ish of the population of the USA. With limited casts almost any person showing up as non-hetro normative is out of proportion. Of the 25 lead characters  less than 2 should be gay, bi or other, according to demographics. We have Moose, Kevin, Cheryl and possibly Toni. Is it vastly out of proportion? No. But it is above average.

Of course to be entertaining TV there is also an over abundance of murderers, rapists, gang members, embezzlers and other interrsting people. (Clarification I am NOT equating LGBTQ to these negative roles I am simply using them to illustrate a point. There is also an over abundance of TWINS in this program.)

I should, maybe, have moderated my statement with "apparent over representation". I was trying to say though 1) it isn't a problem  2) it isn't specifically the LBGTQ community which in pushing for it. 

Offline Kayback

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Hi Kayback. Welcome! I'm curious what it's like where you live for teens to be openly gay. You talk about people being secure in their sexuality, but in the US that's still very difficult for a great many people.

Hi.

Here in SA it is still very hard for people to be gay or bi in some parts of society. There are still "corrective rapes" of lesbian females but they are treated as hate-crimes (as they should be) and offenders do actually get prosecuted and do receive harsher sentences than normal rapists.

However in other aspects it is still very open and easier than it has been in the past. Legally we are allowed same sex marriages, but this is a fairly recent thing. (2006)

The reported numbers of gay/bi in South Africa are 2.5-5million out of a population of 56 million people. That's not a whole heck of a lot of people in pure numbers but percentage wise it is almost 10%. In some ways where I live (Cape Town) has always been relatively queer friendly, often referred to as the Pink City and we had openly gay and lesbian bars in town. Of the people I work with 8 of them are gay, 2 that I know of are bisexual and one is asexual. Those are only the ones I know who are open about it. While we only have about 75 people in our workplace so it is above country averages. I admit i am not up to speed on the legalities of gays in SA but I do know you can not discriminate against them because of sexual orientation or gender. Fire someone because they are gay and the CCMA will cut them a severance cheque from your ass. This does not prevent people being creative in hiring and firing unfortunately.

I'm also all for including LGBTQ in tv, movies and books. So long as they aren't token. I dislike any tokenism. But you can't keep everyone happy. Someone will always be "offended" by something. IMHO the ones wanting to oppress others should be ignored.

I will gladly take your numbers of TV characters which are portrayed  as gay. I watch very little TV so probably should not have chimed in on it but like I said in my post above one of the recent shows I have watched does *appear* to over represent. I will adjust my views based on what you have said, thank you.

As for the "does it matter" I phrased that badly. I agree with you that it very much can matter, I was trying to repeat what GAWD said, it doesn't impact on society in a negative manner so why not live and let live. "Does it matter, in the grand scheme of things, to the OP or their friend?"
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:01:44 AM by Kayback »

Offline albeto

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Thank you for explaining, Kayback. I appreciate your taking the time to do that and I find I completely agree with you. I always loved romance in movies and tv shows and books. Hopeless romantic am I. The anticipation, the tension, the longing.... Anyway, I didn't understand why my daughter didn't share this. Know I know, if she had had a Cheryl/Toni romance to watch on tv it would have made all the difference. That's why, and it sounds like you'd agree, I don't think "over representation" is a problem, especially as we're talking about one show, not all shows in general. You had said if you don't include at least some form of LGBTQ you will face a campaign from the SJW's and you will lose revenue. I haven't experienced or witnessed any kind of SJW backlash but I do recognize others have and it exists. Is that happening in SA as well?

Offline Kayback

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Thank you for explaining...

I also don't see it as a problem. Good story and developed characters for the win.

It may not even be an orchestrated SJW campaign, it may simply be  capitalistic marketing operating as it should be.

Online One Above All

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It may not even be an orchestrated SJW campaign, it may simply be  capitalistic marketing operating as it should be.

What is the practical difference? Are both not just the market speaking for itself?
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Offline Azdgari

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Going back to the OP, one might ask what the symptoms of the mental illness are.  If your friend simply responds by defining the condition[1], then the label is meaningless.  Any trait whatsoever could be identified as an illness by that method.
 1. ie. "a symptom of homesexuality is the attraction to someone of the same sex" or something to that effect
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline jdawg70

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I should, maybe, have moderated my statement with "apparent over representation". I was trying to say though 1) it isn't a problem  2) it isn't specifically the LBGTQ community which in pushing for it.

Perhaps it's worthwhile to better understand what we mean by 'representation'?  To you, is representation primarily a function of quantity?  That is, is it even useful to think of representation in terms of 'percentage of humans in purview of the camera with respect to the total population of the world presented through that lens'?

I'm just wondering if 'representation' (over or apparent over or whatever other modifiers can be added) is the word you still want to go with here.  Maybe it is.  But what strikes me is that you're talking about population make-up and near as I can tell that isn't what representation is all about.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Kayback

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It may not even be an orchestrated SJW campaign, it may simply be  capitalistic marketing operating as it should be.

What is the practical difference? Are both not just the market speaking for itself?

Well it varies in scope. A normal market adjustment isn't  (IMNSHO) a bad thing. It is when  unrelated people mobilize to make life difficult for people people outside of your usual sphere of influence that it becomes a problem. No matter your basis for refusal is it really a national issue if a small bakery somewhere won't bake a cake for a gay couple?

Offline Kayback

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I should, maybe, have moderated my statement with "apparent over representation". I was trying to say though 1) it isn't a problem  2) it isn't specifically the LBGTQ community which in pushing for it.

Perhaps it's worthwhile to better understand what we mean by 'representation'?  To you, is representation primarily a function of quantity?  That is, is it even useful to think of representation in terms of 'percentage of humans in purview of the camera with respect to the total population of the world presented through that lens'?

I'm just wondering if 'representation' (over or apparent over or whatever other modifiers can be added) is the word you still want to go with here.  Maybe it is.  But what strikes me is that you're talking about population make-up and near as I can tell that isn't what representation is all about.

That is a very good point and I had not really thought about it in those terms. The term I may be looking for is basic demographics? What would you define "representation" as? Personally I'd say it is a correct reflection of the society and times depicted. Same way I don't want a 16th century Dragoon armed with an M16A2.

Although I'm quite happy with suspension of disbelief and I personally don't have an issue with it I can understand why others do consider an onscreen presence of LGBTQ  at higher than real world rates as "over representation". My personal bias from Affirmative Action and Employment "equity" may have given me an overly sensitive reaction to this but I reiterate my original post, what does it matter if they are "over" represented? If you're letting television dictate the sexuality of your kids you may need to rethink your parenting style.

Online One Above All

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No matter your basis for refusal is it really a national issue if a small bakery somewhere won't bake a cake for a gay couple?

Yes, because they are breaking the law.
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Online Nick

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Is it such a bad thing that a diner in the South would not serve black people in the 1950s?
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Offline jdawg70

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That is a very good point and I had not really thought about it in those terms. The term I may be looking for is basic demographics? What would you define "representation" as? Personally I'd say it is a correct reflection of the society and times depicted. Same way I don't want a 16th century Dragoon armed with an M16A2.
For me, representation is a function of portrayal.  Are your LGBTQ+ characters mere stereotypes?  Are all of your male, gay characters flamboyant and obsessed with Cher?  Do your asexual characters all just avoid human contact?  Can a teacher be bi?  Is your cishet white dude a fedora-wearing pedant?

Reflecting society and the times is a tricky beast, because it sorta depends on what you're trying to portray and what you want your audience focused on.  Even in a serial like Riverdale you're audience is going to get very bored if you keep cutting to shots showing and accounting for the proportion of cishet normatives vs. total population.  It does nothing for the art form; I would call that problematic, where the necessity of reflective portrayal of society and the times deviate from what you want to convey.

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Although I'm quite happy with suspension of disbelief and I personally don't have an issue with it I can understand why others do consider an onscreen presence of LGBTQ  at higher than real world rates as "over representation".
Do you have an example of a person who would consider the onscreen presence of LGBTQ+ at higher than real world rates as 'over representation'?

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My personal bias from Affirmative Action and Employment "equity" may have given me an overly sensitive reaction to this but I reiterate my original post, what does it matter if they are "over" represented? If you're letting television dictate the sexuality of your kids you may need to rethink your parenting style.
What's your personal bias from Affirmative Action and Employment 'equity' (do you mean 'equality'?)?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Kayback

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No matter your basis for refusal is it really a national issue if a small bakery somewhere won't bake a cake for a gay couple?
and

Yes, because they are breaking the law.

Are they? I admit that I'm not up to speed on the laws in the US but post #28 says they aren't a Federally protected class.

Online Nick

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If you are running a business that is open to the public then you serve the public.  It is that simple.  If not, close up or go private.
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Offline Kayback

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Is it such a bad thing that a diner in the South would not serve black people in the 1950s?

There is a vast difference between someone deciding who or what they will serve in their private capacity and being legally prevented from doing so. The market will be self correcting, especially in this day and age with digital interconnectivity. An orchestrated campaign aside word will spread if you don't cater to a portion of the market and you will lose market share and eventually go out of business. And if there is a portion of the market not being catered for it won't take long for someone to capitalize on that.  Besides, do you honestly want a cake from someone forced to make you one or from someone who wants to make you one?

I said "private capacity" above but I'm not sure that is the correct phrase. If you work for a company and the company policy isn't to discriminate you don't get to say "against my personal belief" and discriminate. Same as for a government employee (here is looking at you Kim Davis). 

Offline Kayback

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Do you have an example of a person who would consider the onscreen presence of LGBTQ+ at higher than real world rates as 'over representation'?
Well... me? The OP's friend?  Anyone who understands that 16% is larger than almost any real world rate and around 3x the reported US average.

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What's your personal bias from Affirmative Action and Employment 'equity' (do you mean 'equality'?)?

No if I meant equality I'd have said equality. EE here is meant to be the prevention of unfair hiring practices and to prevent discrimination but along with Affirmative  Action all it has done in the last 20 years is boost token employees to meet mandated percentages and introduce racist hiring practices. Not "if multiple people are suitably qualified for the job the  previously disadvantaged gets it" but "fill the position with a previously disadvantaged person regardless of qualification".

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Are your LGBTQ+ characters mere stereotypes?
Which yes they generally are. Riverdale actually does it very well, their characters are characters who happen to be a certain sexual orientation. Kurt Hummel from Glee was stereotypical.  Will and Grace were stereotypical. Which is a disservice as well written roles are possible.

Offline Kayback

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If you are running a business that is open to the public then you serve the public.  It is that simple.  If not, close up or go private.

Except bars arent required to serve the visibly inebriated and in some cases are prevented from doing so. Places are allowed to dictate dress codes and refuse service.


Offline Jag

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If you are running a business that is open to the public then you serve the public.  It is that simple.  If not, close up or go private.

Except bars arent required to serve the visibly inebriated and in some cases are prevented from doing so. Places are allowed to dictate dress codes and refuse service.

Both of these situations are about safety though. That's not the case with a baker of cakes who doesn't like gay people.
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