Author Topic: So is there evidence that homosexuality/transgenderism isn't a mental illness?  (Read 372 times)

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Offline CrystalDragon

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I'm personally conflicted on the matter at this time, and I was talking to someone who is of the view that it is. There was a study done by a researcher at John Hopkins hospital who apparently had studied homosexuality and transgender people for 30 years, and it seems by the study that there's not any indication that homosexuality and transgenderism is anything more than a mental illness. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/long-shadow-cast-by-psychiatrist-on-transgender-issues-finally-recedes-at-johns-hopkins/2017/04/05/e851e56e-0d85-11e7-ab07-07d9f521f6b5_story.html?utm_term=.760c916c9c6c Since he's studied them for 30 years it does give strong credibility that being gay could be more of a case of nurture than of nature, at least on some level (more so for transvestites).

I can understand my friend's point on transgenderism, nut I'm on the fence about homosexuality. My friend calls both of those things brainwashing and is convinced the media has a sinister agenda by making homosexuality and transgenderism normalized.. I didn't go into how there are many animal species that also have some homosexuality present in them though.

I'm just trying to figure out which is the most accurate and if my friend is right on this.

(TL;DR, trying to figure out if there's any rebuttal for my friend's claims or not. A review from a doctor with 30 years of experience with homosexuality and transvestites seems like he'd know what he's talking about.)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:21:13 PM by CrystalDragon »
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Offline One Above All

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.

I almost brought that up with my friend, but they were on a rant with it so I didn't bother. I honestly wish I had mentioned it though.

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

I feel like they'd argue though that animals can have things wrong with their brains, so technically they can have mental illnesses.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:23:53 PM by CrystalDragon »
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Offline One Above All

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.

I almost brought that up with my friend, but they were on a rant with it so I didn't bother. I honestly wish I had mentioned it though.

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

They've clearly given in to right-wing conspiratorial thinking. They're essentially mindless zombies at this point. Short of actually brainwashing them, there's nothing you can do or say that will break them from their delusional shell.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.

I almost brought that up with my friend, but they were on a rant with it so I didn't bother. I honestly wish I had mentioned it though.

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

They've clearly given in to right-wing conspiratorial thinking. They're essentially mindless zombies at this point. Short of actually brainwashing them, there's nothing you can do or say that will break them from their delusional shell.

What about that article I linked to of the doctor with 30 years of experience regarding studying homosexuals and transvestites? 30 years of experience seems like the guy would be pretty well-versed in the subject.

Also considering animals can have thigns wrong with their brains isn't it likely that some have mental illnesses?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:31:24 PM by CrystalDragon »
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Offline One Above All

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.

I almost brought that up with my friend, but they were on a rant with it so I didn't bother. I honestly wish I had mentioned it though.

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

They've clearly given in to right-wing conspiratorial thinking. They're essentially mindless zombies at this point. Short of actually brainwashing them, there's nothing you can do or say that will break them from their delusional shell.

What about that article I linked to of the doctor with 30 years of experience regarding studying homosexuals and transvestites? 30 years of experience seems like the guy would be pretty well-versed in the subject.

Couldn't read it because of my ad blocker and the fact that I live in the EU (data protection and all that, and I'm not giving it up just so I can read this article, no offense).

30 years means he started back when non-heterosexuality was widely considered to be a mental illness, and probably held that view throughout those 30 years. Scientists are not free of bias, and experiments concerning human nature can hardly be called scientific when the results depend almost entirely on interpretation and points of view.
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Offline velkyn

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Unless we're gonna start diagnosing animals with mental illnesses, despite their lack of, well, a mind sufficiently developed to have mental illness, non-heterosexuality (bisexuality exists too, you know!) is perfectly natural.

I almost brought that up with my friend, but they were on a rant with it so I didn't bother. I honestly wish I had mentioned it though.

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

I feel like they'd argue though that animals can have things wrong with their brains, so technically they can have mental illnesses.
if your friend is on about "water" or "vaccines" they are idiots and classic conspiracy theorists.   Just because someone is a psychiatrist doesn't mean that they know everything, or aren't deluded themselves.  and as soon as I saw this thoroughly nasty man say that he's only concerned that the transgender folks "get the help they need" I don't need to see much else to know he's damaged. 


we also can see that these studies are from "New Atlantis, a science and technology magazine published by the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a conservative Christian think tank"  aka a bunch of vermin who lie, just like creationists. 
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Offline The Gawd

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I guess the 1st thing I would personally ask is "does it matter?"

Let's say for discussion sake, I grant you that it is a mental illness. What next? It's not one that affects anyone else or interferes with a person's interaction with society other than society's reaction to it. I just don't get the point. Even if it was a flat out choice I don't know what we do with that information. Seems like building a road to nowhere.

Has this friend looked into what other common traits of humanity and the animal kingdom, really, that could also be considered mental illness?

Offline CrystalDragon

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I guess the 1st thing I would personally ask is "does it matter?"

Let's say for discussion sake, I grant you that it is a mental illness. What next? It's not one that affects anyone else or interferes with a person's interaction with society other than society's reaction to it. I just don't get the point. Even if it was a flat out choice I don't know what we do with that information. Seems like building a road to nowhere.

Has this friend looked into what other common traits of humanity and the animal kingdom, really, that could also be considered mental illness?

As far as I can gather from earlier discussion with my friend, it matters because it confuses kids thinking they can change their gender and brainwashing them to accept it as common, when things like that weren't near as common before the media tried to promote it.

And as far as I know they haven't studied common traits in humans and animals that could be considered mental illness.
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Offline Nick

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The "right" wants it to be a mental illness so they can justify their bigotry and their God condemning it.  People are born gay/bi/straight.  That is just the way it is.  Ask your friend is being left handed is a mental illness.  Let people be who they are.

( I am going to do a study and figure out if people who voted for Trump are mentally ill)  (Sure seems like it)
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Offline CrystalDragon

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The "right" wants it to be a mental illness so they can justify their bigotry and their God condemning it.  People are born gay/bi/straight.  That is just the way it is.  Ask your friend is being left handed is a mental illness.  Let people be who they are.

( I am going to do a study and figure out if people who voted for Trump are mentally ill)  (Sure seems like it)

I'm sure that they'll say no on that because I myself happen to be left-handed, and handedness isn't considered really to be a moral issue.

I think a main issue they have is that the media really seems to have been promoting it in the last couple decades and making it seem like it's more common than it actually is and confusing kids/people regarding their gender and orientation.

Also the you're born straight/gay/bi thing even if they accept that they'll probably point out them it would be the same way to transvestites and honestly I feel like that part might be correct (though with intersex people there's a blurry line there).
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Offline junebug72

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CD as it was explained to me in psych class, you get your Y chromosome from your mother. The father determines the sex of a child. Sometimes an extra X or Y chromosome is used. Sometime no chromosome comes from daddy. This evidence is why neither homosexuality or transgender are no longer in the DSM-5, The diagnostic and statical manual for diagnosing mental illness.

Transgender dysphoria is the depression a transgender feels over being teased, mocked, shamed, etc.

Furthermore, you have to present maladaptive behavior to be diagnosed with mental illness. Being gay is not maladaptive. There are plenty of well-functioning gays.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 08:06:21 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline junebug72

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Here is a link to the APA (Amercan Psychology Association) conclusions regarding homosexuality and transgender.

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
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Offline velkyn

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The "right" wants it to be a mental illness so they can justify their bigotry and their God condemning it.  People are born gay/bi/straight.  That is just the way it is.  Ask your friend is being left handed is a mental illness.  Let people be who they are.

( I am going to do a study and figure out if people who voted for Trump are mentally ill)  (Sure seems like it)

I'm sure that they'll say no on that because I myself happen to be left-handed, and handedness isn't considered really to be a moral issue.

I think a main issue they have is that the media really seems to have been promoting it in the last couple decades and making it seem like it's more common than it actually is and confusing kids/people regarding their gender and orientation.

Also the you're born straight/gay/bi thing even if they accept that they'll probably point out them it would be the same way to transvestites and honestly I feel like that part might be correct (though with intersex people there's a blurry line there).

okay, what does "promoting" really mean in this context?   Showing that normal people have been homosexual and always will be?    I've been reading some old noir stories, e.g. Raymond Chandler, Mickey Spillane and Dashiell Hammett.   There were mentions of homosexual people all through them, so it's nothing new.  It was just hidden in the expurgated literature of the time, hoping that if you didn't mention it, it didn't exist.   

This is the same bullshit that people who think that the 50's were such a "perfect" time constantly spew.  they forget that homosexuals existed then, spouse abuse existed them, mental illness existed then.   

Gawd has a great point, even if it is a mental illness, however yu might want to define it,  so what?   What does it hurt and why should anyone consider it any different than the people who think that there is some magical being that is there best friend, other than they may be a person who got the wrong gender?  If you want to claim that questioning one's gender is somehow "wrong", then adults pretending some magical being exists and does what they want, and agrees with what they want is just as wrong. 
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Offline shnozzola

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As far as I can gather from earlier discussion with my friend, it matters because it confuses kids thinking they can change their gender and brainwashing them to accept it as common, when things like that weren't near as common before the media tried to promote it......

   I have a friend at work that thinks the same way, worried that having kids study and consider all the types of sexuality is the beginning of the downfall of society.  I just listen, not wanting to argue.  I disagree with this Hopkins psychiatrist and my friend.   First, I think that the people attracted to the opposite sex, and wanting a monogamous marriage, are in sufficient numbers to keep producing human beings.  If that is the worry.  Second, the idea that there is something "wrong" with other thinking, or physical characteristics, is ridiculous.  Looking at the spectrum of sexuality, from one physical characteristic to another, to genetic differences that produce all amounts of testosterone or estrogen combinations, leading to all levels of masculinity or femininity,  in the uterus during formation, or all through life - why should we be surprised that we have every sexuality under the sun.

   We have every size of human being under the sun, why should sexuality be any different - but we have this religious mumbo jumbo, along with our general societal inhibitions regarding sex, that leads to all types of "cures".  Well, I guess short  people want to be taller, so.....

   Or think of masturbation.  It is such a natural thing for animals, but we have all types of inhibitions regarding it, so it becomes a societal taboo.  I have a link I found below that has doctors answering questions concerning quirks of the human body, that, well, are a lot less controversial.  Quirks in sexuality are no different, but society has this hush, hush thing about sex, so we force inhibitions on people who we view as different.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/07/strange_things_your_body_does_doctors_answer_reddit_questions.html
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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I firmly believe that people are born with certain predispositions. Those dispositions can be altered through nurture and environment. I would not argue that having a predisposition to identify as homosexual or transgender is a mental illness any more  than I would I argue that enjoying spicy food or preferring chocolate ice cream over vanilla ice cream is a mental disorder that should be corrected. It's all just a matter of personal taste or preference that has no bearing on whether or not the person is good or bad.

I have never been done wrong by a black person. Does that mean all black people are good? no.

The only people who have ever taken advantage of me or done me wrong are white people. Does that mean no white people can be trusted? no.

There were a few gay guys who tried to woo me. Does that mean all gay men want my body? no.

This whole notion that gender fluidity or homosexuality is a mental disorder is merely an attempt at a logical fallacy. Most people identify as either male or female. Most of those people's bodies are in line with how they identify. Most people are heterosexual. So, if you don't fit into the norm you must be mentally disturbed? Argumentum ad populum.

Everybody loves chocolate. Why don't you? There must be something wrong with your brain. Chocolate lovers of America need to fix you because that's just wrong. Normalizing people who prefer salted caramel and vanilla is not only dangerous to society but it could seriously eat into the profits of the chocolate lovers association who want to protect their own interest which doesn't leave much room for dissent.



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Offline Truth OT

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Humans are a social and sexual species. The boundaries of our sexuality are generally governed by reproductive control and the societal setting that sets the norms and mores. Though hetero behavior is most common, the is a clear fluidity to human sexuality that has been in existance throughout human history. Homo, bi, hetero, etc., are not mental illnesses, but just individual human conditions that are more innate than chosen.

All that said, I have always had questions about transgenderism as in my examation gender, and the roles associated with gender, are social contructs. Transgenderism SEEMS to be more about the social than the biological in many instances.

Offline The Gawd

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I guess the 1st thing I would personally ask is "does it matter?"

Let's say for discussion sake, I grant you that it is a mental illness. What next? It's not one that affects anyone else or interferes with a person's interaction with society other than society's reaction to it. I just don't get the point. Even if it was a flat out choice I don't know what we do with that information. Seems like building a road to nowhere.

Has this friend looked into what other common traits of humanity and the animal kingdom, really, that could also be considered mental illness?

As far as I can gather from earlier discussion with my friend, it matters because it confuses kids thinking they can change their gender and brainwashing them to accept it as common, when things like that weren't near as common before the media tried to promote it.

And as far as I know they haven't studied common traits in humans and animals that could be considered mental illness.

Here is my unscientific but, I believe, reasonable way of looking at it (and the way I explained it to some clowns I know).

We know for a fact people can be born with both male and female sex parts, correct? Are those people male or female? Should they be attracted to men or women? If they can not fit into the two category in the outward obvious ways, and it happens naturally but rarely... why would we be surprised when people are all over the spectrum in sexuality and gender?

As far as the mental illness aspect of it, it seems like a way to otherize people. We have got to start only being concerned with our own peaches and eggplants and the peaches and eggplants we engage lol and ignore all the other peaches and eggplants that have nothing to do with us.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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There is studies that show people who prefer the same sex have brains similar to their opposite sex....eg. a gay male has a brain similar to that of a female ....and gay female has a brain similar to that of a male.


Where gener fluid and transsexuals fit....I'm unsure .....as in I don't have any info
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Offline albeto

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I'm personally conflicted on the matter at this time, and I was talking to someone who is of the view that it is. There was a study done by a researcher at John Hopkins hospital who apparently had studied homosexuality and transgender people for 30 years, and it seems by the study that there's not any indication that homosexuality and transgenderism is anything more than a mental illness. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/long-shadow-cast-by-psychiatrist-on-transgender-issues-finally-recedes-at-johns-hopkins/2017/04/05/e851e56e-0d85-11e7-ab07-07d9f521f6b5_story.html?utm_term=.760c916c9c6c Since he's studied them for 30 years it does give strong credibility that being gay could be more of a case of nurture than of nature, at least on some level (more so for transvestites).

I disagree there is strong credibility given to the conclusions of this study merely based on the length of time. For one thing, one study does not a consensus make. There are literally thousands of studies on the subject, most support the opposite conclusion. For another, this is an old hypothesis that has never been supported by evidence, concrete or anecdotal. Finally, the publication site should be a glaring red flag:

Quote
But as the plans for the transgender health service were coming together last fall, a 143-page report, titled “Sexuality and Gender,” appeared in the New Atlantis, a science and technology magazine published by the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a conservative Christian think tank. It was authored by McHugh and Lawrence S. Mayer, a professor of statistics and biostatistics at Arizona State University and, at the time of the publication, a scholar in residence at Hopkins.

Conservative Christian think tanks operate with the agreement that evidence contrary to acceptable interpretations of scripture will be automatically disqualified. This goes against every scientific goal ever. Presupposition to beliefs, biases, superstitions, and supposed divine revelations is precisely why the scientific method was developed and has been strengthened over time. Simply said, this is not a scientific opinion but a religious one dressed up in scientific colors.

I can understand my friend's point on transgenderism, nut I'm on the fence about homosexuality. My friend calls both of those things brainwashing and is convinced the media has a sinister agenda by making homosexuality and transgenderism normalized.. I didn't go into how there are many animal species that also have some homosexuality present in them though.

It's only sinister if the idea of pushing back against a culture of oppression based on archaic superstitions is considered evil. How can freedom and equality be considered evil? What's so bad about promoting a just legal system and social environment? It's only bad if it goes against a religious belief that is held above any accountability. How convenient for people who don't find themselves in marginalized groups to promote and defend the status quo of the religious belief that benefits from the suppression of said marginalized groups.

Ultimately, this researcher finds homosexuality "icky" and has been convinced it's not just his opinion. In such a loud echo-chamber as we have today, it's not a difficult stand to take.

Offline One Above All

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There is studies that show people who prefer the same sex have brains similar to their opposite sex....eg. a gay male has a brain similar to that of a female ....and gay female has a brain similar to that of a male.


Where gener fluid and transsexuals fit....I'm unsure .....as in I don't have any info

Any research on bisexual brains?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Bi/transsexual....I have no info on studies
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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And how would you study gender fluid and those who decide daily ?
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Offline stuffin

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I have no knowlegde of how  homosexual, bi-sexual, or trans minds work. What I do know is they should not be shunned. Human kind is as diverse as the anthing in the earth's biosphere. When we all contribute, we all benfit. The problem I see is getting people with narrow minds accepting other  people they see as abnormal, and unacceptable. They need to see these behaviors as a normal divergence of sexual behavior. Good luck with that, unless the bible and quran are re-written.

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Offline Timo

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I guess the 1st thing I would personally ask is "does it matter?"

Yeah, see this is where I come from, too. Like what's the difference between a quirk and an illness? I found out at university that I apparently "suffer" from a mental condition known as synesthesia. I experience sound as both sound and color, especially if I close my eyes. It was something I thought was super normal, but apparently it's not. If I have to guess, I'd say it's been only good. I've been told that it's probably why nobody had to teach me how to put two or more samples in key when I was making beats. So is that an illness?

So if you're gay or you're bi, what exactly is the problem supposed to be? One of my really good friends from school is a dude that's now happily married and is now I think in the second longest running relationship of all of my friends--something like 15 years. They're happy. People like me, who are pals with them are happy for them. Their more traditional families (my friend's Mexican, his husband is black) have long since gotten over their hangups and want them to start thinking about adoption because grand babies are grand babies. What's the problem supposed to be?

As far as I can gather from earlier discussion with my friend, it matters because it confuses kids thinking they can change their gender and brainwashing them to accept it as common, when things like that weren't near as common before the media tried to promote it.

If this is going to be a regular topic of conversation, you and your friend might want to look into what it takes to get the ball rolling on all that gender reassignment stuff. You don't just get to walk into the office like, "Doc, I think I'm actually a woman" and set an appointment for surgery. There's a whole process because I think pretty much every professional involved understands that if you just don't feel comfortable in your own skin, you might glom onto a transgender identity as a quick explanation for why that might be.

I'm sure that they'll say no on that because I myself happen to be left-handed, and handedness isn't considered really to be a moral issue.

This is true now and when you and I were raised. Talk to some folks in maybe their 60s or so. They used to force kids to write with their right hands.

Finally,

Also they said it might be "something in the water or vaccines". I wanted to say something on that but I didn't want to get into an argument.

There are and have been gay and transgender people all over the world and it has no relationship to what we do with our water and it predates vaccines.

In conclusion, queer people and trans people are sometimes cool. Sometimes they're dicks. Because queer people and trans people are normal people at the end of the day.
Nah son...

Offline jdawg70

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I feel like this needs to be here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1619629

Abstract
It is proposed that happiness be classified as a psychiatric disorder and be included in future editions of the major diagnostic manuals under the new name: major affective disorder, pleasant type. In a review of the relevant literature it is shown that happiness is statistically abnormal, consists of a discrete cluster of symptoms, is associated with a range of cognitive abnormalities, and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. One possible objection to this proposal remains--that happiness is not negatively valued. However, this objection is dismissed as scientifically irrelevant.

This little bit of satire was intended to express difficulties in defining what a psychiatric disease is, and I think it captures that nicely.

My friend calls both of those things brainwashing and is convinced the media has a sinister agenda by making homosexuality and transgenderism normalized.
CrystalDragon, do you think your friend can make the distinction between 'brainwashing' and 'being given information that is at odds with what I (your friend) currently believe as true'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/