Author Topic: If jesus appeared to you.  (Read 1599 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2018, 09:41:23 PM »
where do you want to spend the rest of eternity after you die? You really want to be in hell? I'm thinking theres a part of you that wants to be in heaven, even if you say you would hate to be around God and Christians for eternity. Would you really rather be with Satan and his demons instead?

Hell is a controversial subject within Christianity, due to things like Paul, John, Revelation not mentioning it. Revelation says the ones in the book of life are saved, and nearly everything else goes into the lake of fire, as the "second death". There is reason to believe that those who refuse to submit, go into a longer fire, with the smoke that goes up forever and ever.

Hell is not believed by Jehovah's witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, and they have strong biblical reasons to believe that way.

But my point is always that if Christians cannot resolve this issue without lying, then they are worshipping two different Gods. One God has a hatred of people so strong that he wants to spring this surprise burning eternal pit on everyone, including the chosen people. The other is moderately compassionate and gives people a chance.

Don't even try to argue that there is really a hell, until you have engaged a JW or SDA member, and read Tentmaker.org.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2018, 09:50:05 PM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him. I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?

You are missing that your original presumption that the NT is true, carries equal weight to the new Jesus that shows up in the "wrong" way. The basis of the NT is that original Jesus could do tricks, therefore he was LORD.  If the new Jesus can do tricks, he must be equally LORD, by the same criterion.

The new Jesus could easily convince you that your presumption that the NT was accurate, is highly flawed. He would show you how Matthew was written by numerous people and many random personal opinions were added to it. Your faith in the accuracy of the NT would suddenly erode.

I presume you get the idea that the NT is correct, from peer group pressure, telling you that the church assembled the books correctly. A new Jesus would act like a new peer, pressuring you.

I see no reason why the church should be believed to have assembled the books correctly. If I presume that the words of Jesus are actually reported in Matthew (which is a long shot), his testimony alone, undermine Paul, John and Revelation. It's only bloody-minded assertion that keeps you ignoring what Jesus says.
Peer pressure? Wow are you way off base! I don't just believe or follow things because of peer pressure. Actually I think a lot of atheists do because they think it's "cool" to claim God doesn't exist. It's cool to not have any higher power to answer to, it's cool to say we evolved from animals and the universe has no meaning. It's like the pressure from TV and movies to follow trends only because celebrities follow them. That explains a lot of atheism.

No, I am a Christian and follow the new Testament because once I gave Jesus a chance, I really experienced his presence. It literally turned my life around. Nothing to do with peer pressure!

Why did you answer that, and not the more challenging assertions that I made?

If you want to convert us, you have to engage with the challenges. Christians mostly behave as if they are on the back foot, (apologetics) rather than able to convert.

When you duck everything challenging, you don't start thinking, which means you will be here forever, not learning anything. Some people around here have patience for that, but it shits me.

Remember, you are here to convert, not put up a lame duck defence of Christianity.

Oh, and good to know that we have found the only person on the planet not affected by peer group pressure. I assume when you tried Islam and the many forms of Hinduism/Buddhism, you became all the more stronger in your faith.

BTW, I don't say there is no god, and it's probably only 30% of the forum that would say that.

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It's cool to not have any higher power to answer to,

No, we could easily have a power to answer to, but I find the religions presented to me give me no real evidence of what it wants from me.

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it's cool to say we evolved from animals and the universe has no meaning

No, it's sucks. Get your head out of your posterior.

Avoid setting up ridiculous dichotomies like every other noob Christian.

The following are not dichotomies:

atheism vs. Christianity
heaven vs. hell
big bang vs Hebrew stories
evolution vs Hebrew stories
amorality vs random religious belief

« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:59:27 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline albeto

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2018, 09:50:36 PM »
I meant atheists want to live like teenagers without parents

Except for Nick, right?

because they don't want to be accountable in their FAITH, not so much in their DEEDS

I don't know what this means. What faith do atheists not want to be accountable to?

That's why I said it is your faith that counts when it comes to being saved.

Which has nothing to do with being good or living like a teenager without parents home.

Lets be honest, saying you accepted Jesus as your savior does not sound like a fun weekend activity for a lot of people

Accepting Jesus as a savior when one does not need saving is silly, regardless of how the weekend is spent.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2018, 12:05:17 AM »
Welcome to the forum, Quad.

I'd like to recommend you discard what you've heard and read about atheists up until now and try to start with as blank a slate as possible.  Most Christians reverse their own beliefs when envisioning an atheist, and thus end up with a really distorted idea of what it means to be an atheist.  For example, when you say that atheists want to live like teenagers without parents, you probably have this idea of them basically partying all the time and otherwise ignoring the realities of life.  But I've never met an atheist who wanted to live like a teenager for their entire lives.  I've never really even heard of any, except for the occasional apocryphal story.

Instead, I would say that atheists want to get on with the business of making a life for themselves, just like most people do.  The main thing is that they don't expect a god or other supernatural beings to swoop in and help them out when things get hard, which is a commonality among most religions that have ever existed.  Being honest, that includes Christianity, as most Christians talk as if their god is essentially a father and thus will come in and help them out when things get rough.  Even though this doesn't happen much of the time.

In other words, atheists want to live like adults and rely on other people to help them out if needed, not to be reliant on a father-figure who seems to roll a dice when deciding whether or not to help.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2018, 06:47:34 AM »
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him.
I mean...I want to talk to him openly and ask him questions.  His lack of participation is part of the reason I'm an atheist.

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It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18
Yeah but if the child doesn't ask politely they still receive a response of some manner, unambiguously indicating that their father both a) exists and b) heard the child (it should be noted that the father's response isn't intended to assert existence but rather it's just a necessary side effect of engagement).  At a minimum, the father tells the child about this whole 'ask politely' business.  The father doesn't just assume that the child's friends at the playground told them to ask politely.  The father would interact with the child.
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

I've prayed earnestly to God every Sunday in the past year (over a year, actually, I started in September of 2017). I prayed for him to interact with me and others like any human would, because there are a lot of people here on Earth who doubt that he hears, loves us, wants a relationship with us, etc. I pray for God to show that he's out there and loves us and cares for us, like any person who loves us would easily be able and willing to do.

You know what I've got in response? Nothing. Silence. No indication I was speaking to anyone but air.

As I've said many times before, God claims he wants a relationship with us, but the relationship seems to be equivalent to someone giving you a phone number to call them at any time and they'll answer, then when you call them there's an answering machine that says they'll get back to you as soon as possible, and then they never call you back.
"It is always darker right before the light.  Or for some people, it just stays dark, but they don't seem to notice."

Offline Jag

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2018, 12:24:07 PM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him.
"Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Quote
I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?
A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
The original question was if Jesus appeared to you and a group of your friends at the same time and performed magic. Read Revelations, there's nothing in there about Jesus appearing to a small group of friends and performing magic. Not sure how much clearer I can be lol

I asked you two questions, and you didn't answer either of them.

So far, your posts have said a lot about what wouldn't convince you, and what isn't important or what isn't going to happen. That's not what I asked you about. That's not what I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about. You can spend days listing things that aren't going to happen, or aren't important, or whatever, and we can get bogged down in nonsense about how you 'know' the things you claim to know - but that's not at all what I'm trying to determine in this dialogue. You can have that discussion with someone else.

So here it is again. I'm asking two questions.

First: "Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Then: A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're I'm after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
Not ignoring you man, just getting a lot of questions from everyone on here. I didn't know I'd be so popular on an atheist site lol. Plus I'm at work right now. Your question is asking for a long answer, I'll get to it.

Whenever you are ready Quad, I'll be waiting for your reply.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #122 on: November 10, 2018, 07:44:45 PM »
I'd like to recommend you discard what you've heard and read about atheists up until now and try to start with as blank a slate as possible.  Most Christians reverse their own beliefs when envisioning an atheist, and thus end up with a really distorted idea of what it means to be an atheist.  For example, when you say that atheists want to live like teenagers without parents, you probably have this idea of them basically partying all the time and otherwise ignoring the realities of life.

I hate that. The gay Christians I know, bought every DVD in existence and piled them up so high, they couldn't even play all their computer games, or make dinner, so they had to eat out every night.

I have a suspicion that some guys even go for Christian girls, because they are more likely to be out-of-control perverts
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201208/do-religious-people-have-hotter-sex-life
https://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-couples-engaging-in-kinky-sex-including-anal-play-say-its-ok-if-its-in-heterosexual-marriage-researcher-finds-168581/

We're supposed to believe that Catholic priests buggering small boys, is some kind of aberration ... but it's NOT.

Religious people more likely to lie for financial gain
https://www.salon.com/2013/10/22/study_religious_more_likely_to_lie_for_financial_gain_partner/

It's pretty much compulsory to be dishonest when you pretend to be a Christian. So, you better make sure you're a real Christian. How would you know, though? Maybe lie to yourself?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 07:46:49 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2018, 02:58:29 AM »
Trouble is it’s full of contradictions and even a number of religious people can’t make full sense of it - if they could then there wouldn’t be the need for the different Christianity types.

And if God was communicating to us through the book why make it so difficult for us to fully understand? Logically, he’d have known beforehand how confusing we’d find it so this doesn’t really make the best sense.

We need a better system of communication. Better methods now exist, yet (so far as anybody can tell) he doesn’t use them with us!
That's why it's necessary to not just read but study the bible and pray for guidance.

Why exactly?

He can just communicate with us now. Why do we need to pray to him when he’ll already know what we want to say? He’s supposed to be an all knowing being!

No need for him to rely on humans studying the bible. He can just directly communicate with us!
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him. It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18

If this is what you’ve been told, I can understand why you believe it. I can see why there is some logic to it.

However, this idea is still flawed. For one thing, if he wants us to ask him for things (to deepen our relationship with him) why not allow us to do that via proper direct communication through actual
talking? He’d still get the same benefit. There is no need for us to mess around with silently talking to him in our heads and mess around with guess work afterwards as to whether or not he’s heard us.

Another reason, there is no objective evidence to prove that prayer truly works. I understand why it can seem like it does at least sometimes. But it’s kind of obvious (if one takes the time to pay some extra attention) that it doesn’t work on any consistent basis.

Also if god has good reason not to answer a prayer (which goes against what’s promised in the bible here), why would he think that just leaving us hanging in the dark (as opposed to verbally confirming no and giving us an explanation) is going to deepen our relationship with him?

To come back to your analogy of the whole parent child thing (although I think it’s worth bearing in mind that we are adults and not small children here), if a child asked his parent for a toy only for that parent to turn his back on the child and wander off without saying anything more (while the child is left confused not knowing what to make of things) how is this going to achieve anything positive? If anything I’d say that this is pretty cruel and only going to lead the child to feel less inclined to ask them for anything in the future.

2 ways that human relationships are deepened is through open honest communication and the building of mutual trust. I highlight the word mutual because I think that’s extra relevant here. Not really seeing how that’s the case here when it comes to the apparent expectations of this god?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:00:34 AM by Emma286 »

Offline stuffin

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2018, 07:10:05 PM »
It's not that God says love me or else. He says "choose my son so he can save you from your sin and eternal death" If you don't choose him then you are committing the worst kind of crime, much worse than a crime against a human. So of course the punishment will be worse than a regular crime. A regular crime like theft or even murder gets you many years in prison. But a crime against the Almighty will be much more severe. That's just simple logic.

It sounds scary yes, but the good news is you have a simple way out. Just choose Jesus and salvation!

Now I understand, I don't have to love god, instead I have to love Jesus or end up in a lake of eternal fire. Nice to know I have a choice, and you are right, "That's just simple logic."
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Offline stuffin

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2018, 07:34:45 PM »
That's why it's necessary to not just read but study the bible and pray for guidance.

So what you are saying is; When I study the bible I would also need to pray for guidance?

I would think and hope the words and ideas in the bible are clear, concise and easily understood? What is the reason one must[1] pray for guidance when studying the bible?
 1. That's why it's necessary
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2018, 10:08:21 PM »
Now I understand, I don't have to love god, instead I have to love Jesus or end up in a lake of eternal fire. Nice to know I have a choice, and you are right, "That's just simple logic."

No peer group pressure. Just relaxin around the pool.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2018, 12:06:00 AM »
But keep in mind that you cannot be saved by good deeds but only by faith, ie you have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. And that answers your question about why its important that God is real, because I want to be saved and spend an eternity in light not darkness.

Quad, I reject Christianity unconditionally.  I do not consent to "Jesus Christ," or in fact anyone else, dying in my place.  I am also not the least bit interested in eternal life and see that as pure wishful thinking.

I see Christianity as an irredeemable mythology, a glorification of scapegoating and torture pretending to be the epitome of goodness.  It is filth.  Humanity would be much better off without it.

In all of my 61 years I have never been able to silence the skeptical and critical part of my brain to permit me to cultivate religious faith.  It is neurologically impossible for me, and because I was never indoctrinated as a child I successfully circumvented the brainwashing that keeps Christianity alive from generation to generation.  My daughter is also a nonbeliever.

And I have never said the Sinner's Prayer, not even once.  I refuse to even consider it, because it is outright libel against humanity.  No one -- absolutely no one -- is born evil.  No one deserves eternal punishment of any kind, and a god that would permit such an outcome to befall even one sentient being is either incompetent or willfully evil.

I have, however, gleefully committed the Unforgivable Sin multiple times to piss off people like you, who pretend to hold the moral high ground and The Truth™.

(Oh, and I've read the Bible.  I read it back in 1963-64.  It did not inspire awe or faith in me.  It was just a book and nothing more.)

If your god actually exists (although I doubt that very, very much) and wants a relationship with me, it can bloody well come here to my office and speak to me properly, instead of playing Broken Telephone with silly scriptures and using humans as middlemen.  Your services are not required here, mortal.   ;D
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2018, 09:42:32 AM »
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

Do you understand the difference between a response in the negative and no response?
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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2018, 02:30:58 PM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him.
"Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Quote
I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?
A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
The original question was if Jesus appeared to you and a group of your friends at the same time and performed magic. Read Revelations, there's nothing in there about Jesus appearing to a small group of friends and performing magic. Not sure how much clearer I can be lol

I asked you two questions, and you didn't answer either of them.

So far, your posts have said a lot about what wouldn't convince you, and what isn't important or what isn't going to happen. That's not what I asked you about. That's not what I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about. You can spend days listing things that aren't going to happen, or aren't important, or whatever, and we can get bogged down in nonsense about how you 'know' the things you claim to know - but that's not at all what I'm trying to determine in this dialogue. You can have that discussion with someone else.

So here it is again. I'm asking two questions.

First: "Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Then: A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're I'm after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
Not ignoring you man, just getting a lot of questions from everyone on here. I didn't know I'd be so popular on an atheist site lol. Plus I'm at work right now. Your question is asking for a long answer, I'll get to it.

Whenever you are ready Quad, I'll be waiting for your reply.
I was away since Friday and already I have lots of questions piling up. But I'll answer this because I said I would.

In Revelation Jesus rides from heaven on a white horse and his robe is red from the blood of his enemies. He leads an army of angels also on white horses. That's a good start for me believing that it's really Jesus. Now before you say "well what if someone used technology or satanic magic or whatever to stage a fake Jesus doing those things" I'm saying that those things would be necessary for me to believe it's Jesus because it fulfills what is said in the bible. But they might not be sufficient, I would think if it really is the end of days then every Christian and maybe every person in the world would have a definite "feeling" that this really is Jesus. Maybe the same feeling the shepherds and wise men had when they saw him in the manger. It's not something I can explain now because I haven't felt it yet. But I believe me and you and everyone who's alive will KNOW it's the real thing.

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2018, 03:04:43 PM »
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him.
I mean...I want to talk to him openly and ask him questions.  His lack of participation is part of the reason I'm an atheist.

Quote
It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18
Yeah but if the child doesn't ask politely they still receive a response of some manner, unambiguously indicating that their father both a) exists and b) heard the child (it should be noted that the father's response isn't intended to assert existence but rather it's just a necessary side effect of engagement).  At a minimum, the father tells the child about this whole 'ask politely' business.  The father doesn't just assume that the child's friends at the playground told them to ask politely.  The father would interact with the child.
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

I've prayed earnestly to God every Sunday in the past year (over a year, actually, I started in September of 2017). I prayed for him to interact with me and others like any human would, because there are a lot of people here on Earth who doubt that he hears, loves us, wants a relationship with us, etc. I pray for God to show that he's out there and loves us and cares for us, like any person who loves us would easily be able and willing to do.

You know what I've got in response? Nothing. Silence. No indication I was speaking to anyone but air.

As I've said many times before, God claims he wants a relationship with us, but the relationship seems to be equivalent to someone giving you a phone number to call them at any time and they'll answer, then when you call them there's an answering machine that says they'll get back to you as soon as possible, and then they never call you back.
I'm sorry you feel that God is ignoring you. Many people including myself feel that at times. There are lots of websites that answer questions of people like you. I could link you to them but basically the idea is that God hears every prayer. He loves us and wants what's best for us. And of course he doesn't want us to give up praying even when we feel discouraged. He will answer you in his own time, and I hope it will be the answer you are seeking.

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2018, 03:24:42 PM »
So bloody clothing and horses.  He does know it is 2018 … right?  (He had better stay off my carpet looking like that).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 03:34:00 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2018, 04:04:43 PM »
I'm sorry you feel that God is ignoring you. Many people including myself feel that at times. There are lots of websites that answer questions of people like you. I could link you to them but basically the idea is that God hears every prayer. He loves us and wants what's best for us. And of course he doesn't want us to give up praying even when we feel discouraged. He will answer you in his own time, and I hope it will be the answer you are seeking.

Quad, in your opinion, has god been interacting with CrystalDragon throughout this, as is heavily implied with your words here:
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

Or is he not interacting with CrystalDragon but will in the future?  Is CrystalDragon not wanting to listen to his reply, is she being too stubborn to accept his reply, or has he not replied yet but will at a future time?

You seem to be using two mutually-exclusive explanations for a singular phenomenon.  Is this you 'hedging your bets' or do you sincerely believe one of these explanations to be the case?

Do you understand the difference between a response in the negative and no response?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
Something else you should think about, Quad.  Many of the people here were Christians at some point in their past.  And the one thing that's common to what they say about how they stopped being Christians amounts to "I earnestly prayed to God in order to help my unbelief, but I never received an answer".  I think it's a safe bet that if they _had_ received an answer, even an ambiguous one, they would have remained Christians.

To tell them that "God hears every prayer but chooses whether or not to answer" is tantamount to telling them that God was perfectly okay with them becoming atheists.  So at the very minimum, it means that your god is not concerned with a given person being or remaining a Christian.  That kind of undercuts one of the most basic ideas of Christianity.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2018, 05:52:03 PM »
Something else you should think about, Quad.  Many of the people here were Christians at some point in their past.  And the one thing that's common to what they say about how they stopped being Christians amounts to "I earnestly prayed to God in order to help my unbelief, but I never received an answer".  I think it's a safe bet that if they _had_ received an answer, even an ambiguous one, they would have remained Christians.

To tell them that "God hears every prayer but chooses whether or not to answer" is tantamount to telling them that God was perfectly okay with them becoming atheists.  So at the very minimum, it means that your god is not concerned with a given person being or remaining a Christian.  That kind of undercuts one of the most basic ideas of Christianity.
Yeah, and I never got my damn pony.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2018, 06:00:23 PM »
I'm sorry you feel that God is ignoring you. Many people including myself feel that at times. There are lots of websites that answer questions of people like you. I could link you to them but basically the idea is that God hears every prayer. He loves us and wants what's best for us. And of course he doesn't want us to give up praying even when we feel discouraged. He will answer you in his own time, and I hope it will be the answer you are seeking.

Quad, in your opinion, has god been interacting with CrystalDragon throughout this, as is heavily implied with your words here:
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

Or is he not interacting with CrystalDragon but will in the future?  Is CrystalDragon not wanting to listen to his reply, is she being too stubborn to accept his reply, or has he not replied yet but will at a future time?

You seem to be using two mutually-exclusive explanations for a singular phenomenon.  Is this you 'hedging your bets' or do you sincerely believe one of these explanations to be the case?

Do you understand the difference between a response in the negative and no response?
The bible says that God wants us to pray regularly and that he hears every single prayer. Whether he interacts with a person the way you are asking is hard to say, I can't answer for God. And yes I know that no response is not the same as saying no (though in some cases it is, like if you email a rich relative asking for a million dollars, no answer is the same as him saying no way).

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2018, 06:08:04 PM »
Something else you should think about, Quad.  Many of the people here were Christians at some point in their past.  And the one thing that's common to what they say about how they stopped being Christians amounts to "I earnestly prayed to God in order to help my unbelief, but I never received an answer".  I think it's a safe bet that if they _had_ received an answer, even an ambiguous one, they would have remained Christians.

To tell them that "God hears every prayer but chooses whether or not to answer" is tantamount to telling them that God was perfectly okay with them becoming atheists.  So at the very minimum, it means that your god is not concerned with a given person being or remaining a Christian.  That kind of undercuts one of the most basic ideas of Christianity.
Well no one said being a true Christian was easy. "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt 7:14)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2018, 06:10:34 PM »
The bible says that God wants us to pray regularly and that he hears every single prayer. Whether he interacts with a person the way you are asking
...in what way am I asking, Quad?  I thought I had left that ambiguous; I had intended it to be so.  I simply mean any interaction.

Quote
is hard to say, I can't answer for God. And yes I know that no response is not the same as saying no (though in some cases it is, like if you email a rich relative asking for a million dollars, no answer is the same as him saying no way).
Can you distinguish between cases where getting no response means the recipient means no, cases where getting no response means the recipient did not receive the communication, and cases where getting no response means the recipient is making the volitional choice to not respond?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2018, 06:25:08 PM »
The bible says that God wants us to pray regularly and that he hears every single prayer. Whether he interacts with a person the way you are asking
...in what way am I asking, Quad?  I thought I had left that ambiguous; I had intended it to be so.  I simply mean any interaction.

Quote
is hard to say, I can't answer for God. And yes I know that no response is not the same as saying no (though in some cases it is, like if you email a rich relative asking for a million dollars, no answer is the same as him saying no way).
Can you distinguish between cases where getting no response means the recipient means no, cases where getting no response means the recipient did not receive the communication, and cases where getting no response means the recipient is making the volitional choice to not respond?
As I said, I can't answer for God as far as how he is interacting with someone who prays. Most Christians say they feel him reply.

When it comes to prayer there is no case where the recipient (meaning God) did not receive the prayer. He may wait before replying or may give you a yes or no right away, it would depend on what you're asking for

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2018, 06:54:40 PM »
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt 7:14)

So, you admit that very few people in your congregation have found the gate, and you might not have, either.

Quote
7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Did you beware? Did you spot Paul and John?

Quote
7:24 - Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Did you do all his sayings? Or, did people tell you not to?



What if the new Jesus comes to you and says that Paul killed the true believers, then pretended to have a vision of Me. Then he preached a false salvation doctrine, made his own religion, and further suppressed the original message. Wasn't it totally obvious that Paul is a false prophet?

Then the new Jesus says, John came and re-wrote the gospel, with no sayings of Mine - not even to love your neighbour as yourself. Then he pretended to have a dream about me, which was all wrong.

I warned you not to believe in false prophets, but you ignored the warning. I told you that the way was narrow.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 07:05:16 PM by Add Homonym »
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2018, 07:13:36 PM »
Well no one said being a true Christian was easy. "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt 7:14)

Ah, there it is.  "True Christian."

   Mormons are true Christians, ask them.  Jehovah's Witnesses are true Christians, just ask them.  Of course Catholics are the real true Christians, just ask.  Ask the Westboro Baptists - they are absolutely convinced of their One True Christianity.   Amish, River Brethren, Methodists, Mennonites, not sure about Messianic Jews, but certainly Quakers, Presbyterians - you would think, as important as it seems to this deity idea you have - this "one true Christian" belief system would be obvious.  Seems too important to be ambiguous. Of course, maybe its simply believe, or not - anything else goes.  But then the Pope recently sent, better to be an atheist then a bad Christian.

Here is the tree of religions.  You have probably seen it.  Not sure which denomination you are, Quad, but you are most likely represented.




edit:  readable version - Nick(below) it looks the the yellow added enlightenment may be Japanese belief systems, offshoots of Shinto

https://000024.org/religions_tree/religions_tree_8.html

2nd edit:  Sorry to add edits:  you know, with Japan after WWII, Shinotism having to deal with modern Japanese prosperity, it makes sense that newer religions would be springing up as explanations, much like Hollywood wealth embracing the Church of Scientology, actors thinking, it couldn't possibly be a mix of skill and luck.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 07:40:34 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2018, 07:18:42 PM »
Damn, what is that hitting the religious tree?  Enlightenment?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2018, 10:55:06 PM »
As I said, I can't answer for God as far as how he is interacting with someone who prays.
Firstly, you seem quite comfortable answering for god with this:
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

Secondly,
Quote
Most Christians say they feel him reply.
I'm sorry you feel that God is ignoring you. Many people including myself feel that at times.
They, including you, also say they don't feel him reply.  Why do you ever end up feeling that way?

Quote
When it comes to prayer there is no case where the recipient (meaning God) did not receive the prayer. He may wait before replying or may give you a yes or no right away, it would depend on what you're asking for
Okay can you distinguish between him waiting before replying and him saying no?

Look - we're eventually going to get to the point where you tell me you don't literally hear a voice say the word 'no' to you, then I ask you to be more specific when you mean 'reply', then you're going to go back to saying "you can't answer for god on why he communicates the way he communicates".  Am I right here, Quad?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #143 on: November 13, 2018, 03:18:03 AM »
If God/Jesus actually replied to people, we would get the doctrine of all religions straight. Allah would reply to Muslims, and they would have only one variant of their religion. Yahweh or Elohim would reply to Christians, and we would know whether hell existed, or whether you were supposed to give all your money away. And the various gods of India would reply to all their followers, and we could get everything perfectly straight. After getting everything straight, there would probably only be 20 or so real Gods, and basically all the same things going on in each religion.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 04:07:52 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #144 on: November 13, 2018, 06:21:58 AM »
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him.
I mean...I want to talk to him openly and ask him questions.  His lack of participation is part of the reason I'm an atheist.

Quote
It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18
Yeah but if the child doesn't ask politely they still receive a response of some manner, unambiguously indicating that their father both a) exists and b) heard the child (it should be noted that the father's response isn't intended to assert existence but rather it's just a necessary side effect of engagement).  At a minimum, the father tells the child about this whole 'ask politely' business.  The father doesn't just assume that the child's friends at the playground told them to ask politely.  The father would interact with the child.
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

I've prayed earnestly to God every Sunday in the past year (over a year, actually, I started in September of 2017). I prayed for him to interact with me and others like any human would, because there are a lot of people here on Earth who doubt that he hears, loves us, wants a relationship with us, etc. I pray for God to show that he's out there and loves us and cares for us, like any person who loves us would easily be able and willing to do.

You know what I've got in response? Nothing. Silence. No indication I was speaking to anyone but air.

As I've said many times before, God claims he wants a relationship with us, but the relationship seems to be equivalent to someone giving you a phone number to call them at any time and they'll answer, then when you call them there's an answering machine that says they'll get back to you as soon as possible, and then they never call you back.
I'm sorry you feel that God is ignoring you. Many people including myself feel that at times. There are lots of websites that answer questions of people like you. I could link you to them but basically the idea is that God hears every prayer. He loves us and wants what's best for us. And of course he doesn't want us to give up praying even when we feel discouraged. He will answer you in his own time, and I hope it will be the answer you are seeking.

Sorry Quad, but basically all you’re doing here (so far as I can tell) is repeatedly quoting personal opinion as fact. That’s not going to get you very far here I’m afraid. It’s no different to being on the receiving end of somebody trying to promote a tooth fairy story - claiming repeatedly that this fairy loves and cares for us all (especially as there is a book in print confirming it) but with nothing objective/solid to back it up.

We’re all, of course, perfectly happy to have a reasonable discussion with you on this subject. But what we really appreciate here are provable facts theists can share to back up their claims. Subjective impressions/opinions on this are not decent arguments for what you claim.