Author Topic: If jesus appeared to you.  (Read 1600 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2018, 09:36:29 AM »
To be perfectly honest and since this is a subject which requires absolutely no scientific proof or evidence I feel perfectly qualified to comment on the question.

I don't think it's the right question to be asking in the first place.

What would you do if Satan appeared to you?

Now there's a serious question.

How would you convince others that Satan is real?

"Come meet Satan."

Assuming that, upon meeting him, I am convinced that Satan is who he says he is (i.e. a cast out member of a group known as 'angels', The Fallen One, etc.), then I see no reason why just introducing him to others wouldn't have the same effect.  At a minimum I would consider an introduction between Satan himself and the person(s) I'm trying to convince to be a best attempt at convincing others of Satan's existence.

If Satan were unwilling to meet others as he met me, then the conversation would mostly be between Satan and myself, with me really wanting to know why Satan would be unwilling to meet with others.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2018, 09:57:15 AM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him. I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?

You are missing that your original presumption that the NT is true, carries equal weight to the new Jesus that shows up in the "wrong" way. The basis of the NT is that original Jesus could do tricks, therefore he was LORD.  If the new Jesus can do tricks, he must be equally LORD, by the same criterion.

The new Jesus could easily convince you that your presumption that the NT was accurate, is highly flawed. He would show you how Matthew was written by numerous people and many random personal opinions were added to it. Your faith in the accuracy of the NT would suddenly erode.

I presume you get the idea that the NT is correct, from peer group pressure, telling you that the church assembled the books correctly. A new Jesus would act like a new peer, pressuring you.

I see no reason why the church should be believed to have assembled the books correctly. If I presume that the words of Jesus are actually reported in Matthew (which is a long shot), his testimony alone, undermine Paul, John and Revelation. It's only bloody-minded assertion that keeps you ignoring what Jesus says.
Peer pressure? Wow are you way off base! I don't just believe or follow things because of peer pressure. Actually I think a lot of atheists do because they think it's "cool" to claim God doesn't exist. It's cool to not have any higher power to answer to, it's cool to say we evolved from animals and the universe has no meaning. It's like the pressure from TV and movies to follow trends only because celebrities follow them. That explains a lot of atheism.

No, I am a Christian and follow the new Testament because once I gave Jesus a chance, I really experienced his presence. It literally turned my life around. Nothing to do with peer pressure!

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2018, 10:11:03 AM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him. I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?

You are missing that your original presumption that the NT is true, carries equal weight to the new Jesus that shows up in the "wrong" way. The basis of the NT is that original Jesus could do tricks, therefore he was LORD.  If the new Jesus can do tricks, he must be equally LORD, by the same criterion.

The new Jesus could easily convince you that your presumption that the NT was accurate, is highly flawed. He would show you how Matthew was written by numerous people and many random personal opinions were added to it. Your faith in the accuracy of the NT would suddenly erode.

I presume you get the idea that the NT is correct, from peer group pressure, telling you that the church assembled the books correctly. A new Jesus would act like a new peer, pressuring you.

I see no reason why the church should be believed to have assembled the books correctly. If I presume that the words of Jesus are actually reported in Matthew (which is a long shot), his testimony alone, undermine Paul, John and Revelation. It's only bloody-minded assertion that keeps you ignoring what Jesus says.

I'd like to argue this point: Quad has no faith that the NT is true. He has faith that his interpretation of the NT is true. He's so arrogant that not even his own god could convince him he's wrong; in fact, he's stated repeatedly that his god must conform to what he believes, or else he wouldn't even acknowledge it as his god. Quad has already dismissed any and all possibility that he's wrong, to the point that the supreme being he believes in, if it existed, couldn't even convince him he's wrong, and this supreme being is, by his own beliefs, all-knowing. He has literally placed his own knowledge above that of an all-knowing entity.
Arguing with him is pointless, because he's the Dunning-Kruger effect personified. Just look at how he is demonstrably ignorant of the Big Bang theory, yet still claims to "know enough" to dismiss it.
You keep using the word arrogant. Like in the movie Princess Bride, I do not think it means what you think it means lol. I said Jesus would be able to convince me it's really him simply by doing what the Bible prophesied he would do. And that would be very easy for him to do. Go back to the father telling the child not to open the door unless he hears the password. God in his wisdom has made a similar agreement with us, though some of us just refuse to accept the agreement.

And as far as the big bang goes, I already told you I know it's supposed to have happened billions of years ago. You know that right? So I do know something about it that allows me to dismiss it.

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2018, 10:15:26 AM »
Nick you can call God names if you want. It doesn't hurt me or him (I'm sure he's been called much worse)

The bible says god will not be mocked. Specifically, it says that god will not be mocked; whatever a man sows, so shall he reap (Gal 6:7). Well, that's kind of useless. I mean, how is this functionally indistinguishable from the laws of cause and effect? Natural consequences? My mocking your god hasn't brought me any more hardships than when I was a believer. There does not exist any observable difference in the quality of life of believers vs. non believers, no matter how you define it. In fact, I would say my life is measurably better now that I've left that behind, and even since I've actively started to mock god. Some of it is coincidental to be sure, but much is directly related to leaving behind my faith.

The soldiers who whipped Jesus mocked him too. If instead you turn to him with an open heart and ask him sincerely to reveal himself and answer your questions, you won't be disappointed!

I would again challenge you to find some answers that don't rely on a No True Scotsman fallacy.
There doesn't exist a difference in the quality of life of believers? Really? Most Christian countries are much better off (higher standard of living) than most Muslim countries or Hindu countries or pagan countries (not sure if there are any still, maybe some parts of Africa). I'd say there is a big difference in quality of life for Christians!

Offline albeto

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2018, 11:16:14 AM »
There doesn't exist a difference in the quality of life of believers? Really?

Really really. ;)

Most Christian countries are much better off (higher standard of living) than most Muslim countries or Hindu countries or pagan countries (not sure if there are any still, maybe some parts of Africa).

Noted, and agreed, but consider also that countries that pay little heed to religion of any kind show a greater standard of living than even Xian countries, and the difference between non-religious and religious is greater than the difference between Muslim and Xian. Essentially, there is no situation in which a really highly religious nation is highly successful socially. The correlation between religion and quality of life is strong and clear, and it is a negative correlation.

Consider for example the fact that non-religious countries tend to be more peaceful. The Global Peace Index is a calculation based on political, economic, academic, and social factors, where number 1 reflects the most peaceful and 144 the east.

Of all nations ranked (144), the top ten Muslim countries rank as follows:

Somalia: 99% reported Muslim; ranked 142/144 on the GPI
Afghanistan: 99%; 143
Yemen: 99%; 119
Saudi Arabia: 99%; 104
Iran: 98%; 99
Iraq: 97%; 144
Pakistan: 97%; 137
Palestine: 94%; 139
Nigeria: 78%; 129
Sudan: 76%; 140

Top ten xian nations as follows:

Honduras: 99% reported xian; ranked 112/144 on the GPI
Guatemala: 99%; 111
Ecuador: 99%; 109
Venezuela: 98%; 120
Columbia: 97%; 130
Ukraine: 96%; 82
Argentina: 94%; 66
Cuba: 89%; 68
Brazil: 87%; 85
USA: 72%; 83

Now consider ten least religious nations:

Sweden: 85% reported atheist; ranked 6/144 on the GPI
Vietnam: 81%; 39
Denmark: 80%; 2
Norway: 72%; 2
Japan: 76%; 7
Czech Republic: 61%; 11
Finland: 60%; 9
France: 54%; 30
Germany: 49%; 16
Hungary: 48%; 27
 
(source)

I'd say there is a big difference in quality of life for Christians!

While it may seem that way to you, and while you may know lots of anecdotal stories to support that idea, the evidence contradicts it. In addition, you would find that here we can offer anecdotal stories to support the opposite, like I did. What do you think of that? What do you think about this idea when you hear someone who says their quality of life improved upon leaving the faith?

Offline shnozzola

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2018, 12:05:01 PM »
I'd say there is a big difference in quality of life for Christians!

The thing about the term "Christianity" is, it can be turned off and on, like a switch.  Well that person wasn't a true Christian.   Let's say, as you said above, "there is a big difference in the quality of life for Christians."

   So let's say a (Christian) Catholic priest is regularly abusing a (Christian) 10 year old boy, until the child jumps out a window and commits suicide.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say a couple refuses to take their child to the doctor because, well, because God, until the child dies from secondary infections.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Lets say, during a hurricane, a wealthy church refuses to allow people inside for shelter, while a furniture store opens up to help anyone.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Lets say a Christian nation seeks revenge on a Muslim nation, (or another Christian nation) for attacks, wiping out people in towns and villages.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say a fundamentalist Christian group burns a cross in the yard of a Muslim couple.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Lets say a Christian man hides and shoots doctors at a Planned Parenthood because of the abortion debate.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Lets say a lesbian woman gets letters from a Christian neighbor offering sex therapy to cure her "problem".  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Lets say Christians gather on the US -Mexico border with guns, helping to keep the "illegals" out. Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say some Christians burn other Christians at the stake because of the type of baptism.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say a Christian arrives at a Jewish church, and begins shooting people in the congregation during worship.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say an atheist works every Saturday at a soup kitchen in the city.  Big difference in the quality of life.
   Let's say a Christian says, "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword."  Big difference in the quality of life.

   We are all the same, Quad - little judges and hypocrites, with as many beliefs as there are people.  My opinion is that Christianity (or the lack thereof) has nothing to do with the quality of life.
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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2018, 12:31:14 PM »
There doesn't exist a difference in the quality of life of believers? Really?

Really really. ;)

Most Christian countries are much better off (higher standard of living) than most Muslim countries or Hindu countries or pagan countries (not sure if there are any still, maybe some parts of Africa).

Noted, and agreed, but consider also that countries that pay little heed to religion of any kind show a greater standard of living than even Xian countries, and the difference between non-religious and religious is greater than the difference between Muslim and Xian. Essentially, there is no situation in which a really highly religious nation is highly successful socially. The correlation between religion and quality of life is strong and clear, and it is a negative correlation.

Consider for example the fact that non-religious countries tend to be more peaceful. The Global Peace Index is a calculation based on political, economic, academic, and social factors, where number 1 reflects the most peaceful and 144 the east.

Of all nations ranked (144), the top ten Muslim countries rank as follows:

Somalia: 99% reported Muslim; ranked 142/144 on the GPI
Afghanistan: 99%; 143
Yemen: 99%; 119
Saudi Arabia: 99%; 104
Iran: 98%; 99
Iraq: 97%; 144
Pakistan: 97%; 137
Palestine: 94%; 139
Nigeria: 78%; 129
Sudan: 76%; 140

Top ten xian nations as follows:

Honduras: 99% reported xian; ranked 112/144 on the GPI
Guatemala: 99%; 111
Ecuador: 99%; 109
Venezuela: 98%; 120
Columbia: 97%; 130
Ukraine: 96%; 82
Argentina: 94%; 66
Cuba: 89%; 68
Brazil: 87%; 85
USA: 72%; 83

Now consider ten least religious nations:

Sweden: 85% reported atheist; ranked 6/144 on the GPI
Vietnam: 81%; 39
Denmark: 80%; 2
Norway: 72%; 2
Japan: 76%; 7
Czech Republic: 61%; 11
Finland: 60%; 9
France: 54%; 30
Germany: 49%; 16
Hungary: 48%; 27
 
(source)

I'd say there is a big difference in quality of life for Christians!

While it may seem that way to you, and while you may know lots of anecdotal stories to support that idea, the evidence contradicts it. In addition, you would find that here we can offer anecdotal stories to support the opposite, like I did. What do you think of that? What do you think about this idea when you hear someone who says their quality of life improved upon leaving the faith?
Yes I'm sure many atheists would claim that their lives are better after leaving the faith. I mean if they didn't think they were better off they would return to the faith, right? See my above post about the "coolness" factor motivating atheists. If you feel you can do whatever you want and don't have to answer to anyone then of course life would seem like fun. It's like teenagers having a party and going nuts when their parents are away, they enjoy the short time when it feels like they don't have to be accountable to anyone. I get it

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2018, 01:07:09 PM »
I am accountable to myself and society.  I do not feel like I can do whatever I want.  I do not need the fear of a god or a hell to do right.  I do right because I want to and I feel good doing so.  I volunteer and help in disasters.  I do so because it makes for a better society.  Your concept of being "cool" to be an atheist in insulting.  You act like we know their is a god but just want to disobey to be cool.  There have been 3800 different gods in man's history on this rock.  I bet you don't believe in 3799 of them.  We just carry it one god further.  They all have one thing in common.  They like to play hide and seek.  There is NO evidence for any of these gods being real.  Mankind needed them to explain what they did not understand and in many cases to control populations.  No different than today...sadly.   OK, time to go rape and pillage because I can.

(and you did not answer my question..."why is it so important for you that the God thing is real?)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Emma286

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2018, 01:55:13 PM »
Trouble is it’s full of contradictions and even a number of religious people can’t make full sense of it - if they could then there wouldn’t be the need for the different Christianity types.

And if God was communicating to us through the book why make it so difficult for us to fully understand? Logically, he’d have known beforehand how confusing we’d find it so this doesn’t really make the best sense.

We need a better system of communication. Better methods now exist, yet (so far as anybody can tell) he doesn’t use them with us!
That's why it's necessary to not just read but study the bible and pray for guidance.

Why exactly?

He can just communicate with us now. Why do we need to pray to him when he’ll already know what we want to say? He’s supposed to be an all knowing being!

No need for him to rely on humans studying the bible. He can just directly communicate with us!


Offline Emma286

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2018, 02:02:27 PM »
Yes I'm sure many atheists would claim that their lives are better after leaving the faith. I mean if they didn't think they were better off they would return to the faith, right? See my above post about the "coolness" factor motivating atheists. If you feel you can do whatever you want and don't have to answer to anyone then of course life would seem like fun. It's like teenagers having a party and going nuts when their parents are away, they enjoy the short time when it feels like they don't have to be accountable to anyone. I get it


What evidence e do you go by to support this view?

Admittedly I never belonged to a religious faith though used to be an agnostic. I did not change my stance because of those sorts of reasons though. I changed my stance because it makes more sense for me not to invest any belief into any religious god idea that lacks strong objective evidence than to do otherwise!

Offline Jag

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2018, 02:46:56 PM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him.
"Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Quote
I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?
A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
The original question was if Jesus appeared to you and a group of your friends at the same time and performed magic. Read Revelations, there's nothing in there about Jesus appearing to a small group of friends and performing magic. Not sure how much clearer I can be lol

I asked you two questions, and you didn't answer either of them.

So far, your posts have said a lot about what wouldn't convince you, and what isn't important or what isn't going to happen. That's not what I asked you about. That's not what I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about. You can spend days listing things that aren't going to happen, or aren't important, or whatever, and we can get bogged down in nonsense about how you 'know' the things you claim to know - but that's not at all what I'm trying to determine in this dialogue. You can have that discussion with someone else.

So here it is again. I'm asking two questions.

First: "Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Then: A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're I'm after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Jag

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2018, 02:52:33 PM »
"... the "coolness" factor motivating atheists.

 8)

Fuck yeah, I'm finally cool!

This is too silly to even make it to insulting. Now I have to go read the post where some random internet dude explains to me why I'm an atheist, and why it is NOT, in fact, as cool as I think. Thank Thor I have a fresh cup of coffee!
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2018, 03:07:56 PM »
I am accountable to myself and society.  I do not feel like I can do whatever I want.  I do not need the fear of a god or a hell to do right.  I do right because I want to and I feel good doing so.  I volunteer and help in disasters.  I do so because it makes for a better society.  Your concept of being "cool" to be an atheist in insulting.  You act like we know their is a god but just want to disobey to be cool.  There have been 3800 different gods in man's history on this rock.  I bet you don't believe in 3799 of them.  We just carry it one god further.  They all have one thing in common.  They like to play hide and seek.  There is NO evidence for any of these gods being real.  Mankind needed them to explain what they did not understand and in many cases to control populations.  No different than today...sadly.   OK, time to go rape and pillage because I can.

(and you did not answer my question..."why is it so important for you that the God thing is real?)
I'm glad you do good things because you want a better society, I'm sure you are a good person (or as good as people can get considering we are all human and therefore fallible). But keep in mind that you cannot be saved by good deeds but only by faith, ie you have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. And that answers your question about why its important that God is real, because I want to be saved and spend an eternity in light not darkness

As for God playing hide and seek, most people on here have already said they would not believe in Jesus even if they had evidence. And there IS evidence all around, and we see it every day of our lives. That's why it is written "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2018, 03:13:55 PM »
Trouble is it’s full of contradictions and even a number of religious people can’t make full sense of it - if they could then there wouldn’t be the need for the different Christianity types.

And if God was communicating to us through the book why make it so difficult for us to fully understand? Logically, he’d have known beforehand how confusing we’d find it so this doesn’t really make the best sense.

We need a better system of communication. Better methods now exist, yet (so far as anybody can tell) he doesn’t use them with us!
That's why it's necessary to not just read but study the bible and pray for guidance.

Why exactly?

He can just communicate with us now. Why do we need to pray to him when he’ll already know what we want to say? He’s supposed to be an all knowing being!

No need for him to rely on humans studying the bible. He can just directly communicate with us!
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him. It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2018, 03:16:55 PM »
As I said, if someone told me he was Jesus but didn't fulfill what was said in Revelation then I wouldn't believe him.
"Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Quote
I don't care if he shows me a card trick or pretends to catch a bullet in his teeth like Penn and teller. What am I missing here?
A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
The original question was if Jesus appeared to you and a group of your friends at the same time and performed magic. Read Revelations, there's nothing in there about Jesus appearing to a small group of friends and performing magic. Not sure how much clearer I can be lol

I asked you two questions, and you didn't answer either of them.

So far, your posts have said a lot about what wouldn't convince you, and what isn't important or what isn't going to happen. That's not what I asked you about. That's not what I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about. You can spend days listing things that aren't going to happen, or aren't important, or whatever, and we can get bogged down in nonsense about how you 'know' the things you claim to know - but that's not at all what I'm trying to determine in this dialogue. You can have that discussion with someone else.

So here it is again. I'm asking two questions.

First: "Fulfill what was said in Revelations"..... Can you be more specific please? For instance which thing or things would convince you that this was actually Jesus, and not an elaborate hoax?

Then: A clear and unambiguous answer. You referenced an entire book, we're I'm after an answer that's a bit more specific than that.
Not ignoring you man, just getting a lot of questions from everyone on here. I didn't know I'd be so popular on an atheist site lol. Plus I'm at work right now. Your question is asking for a long answer, I'll get to it.

Offline albeto

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2018, 03:17:18 PM »
Yes I'm sure many atheists would claim that their lives are better after leaving the faith. I mean if they didn't think they were better off they would return to the faith, right?

I don't think you're quite tracking here. I showed you this isn't a subjective opinion but an objective set of facts. I used the same measurement you did - quality of life - and I supplied objective data to show your conclusion is wrong. Religious beliefs are declining, and yet the world is improving by practically all measures we value (example). As these trends are clearly not correlated with the Xian faith, can you think of any other variables that might contribute to them?

See my above post about the "coolness" factor motivating atheists.

The problem with your comment is that you assume intent based on assumptions and faith rather than evidence. Furthermore, the evidence available conflicts with your hypothesis.

If you feel you can do whatever you want and don't have to answer to anyone then of course life would seem like fun. It's like teenagers having a party and going nuts when their parents are away, they enjoy the short time when it feels like they don't have to be accountable to anyone. I get it

Not really. You're still assuming intent, which again falls back on your reliance of the No True Scotsman fallacy to assume credibility. You're ignoring the stated intent of people who are non-believers and yet don't live life like a teenager having a party when the parents are away.

Secondly, you're assuming only Xians are cognizant of the laws of cause and effect. This is silly.

If you'd like to understand what values atheists hold and what motivates us, you can always ask. ;)

Offline albeto

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2018, 03:28:50 PM »
I'm glad you do good things because you want a better society, I'm sure you are a good person (or as good as people can get considering we are all human and therefore fallible).

It appears you don't really believe what you think you believe. This is not compatible with your statement that atheists feel and live like teenagers having a party and going nuts when their parents are away, enjoying the short time when it feels like they don't have to be accountable to anyone.

As for God playing hide and seek, most people on here have already said they would not believe in Jesus even if they had evidence.

You're new here so naturally you're not familiar with our histories, but you should be aware many (most?) of us were believers before we left the faith. We accepted the story without evidence. We even believed we had evidence![1]

And still, that's what gets my funny bone the most. If Xianity works on faith, why bother with evidence at all?
 1. please Jesus, if you're listening, don't let him appeal to NTS again, lol!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 03:46:50 PM by albeto »

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2018, 03:34:40 PM »
Quad, I don't need to be "saved".  There is nothing to be saved from or for.  You see, there has to be a god thing in order to be "saved".  And I do not see evidence all around.  I see nothing god related at all.  I understand your need for the god crutch.  Great.  People use a lot of different crutches...alcohol, drug, cults/religion.  Does not make it real.  Actually, if your God was real I still would not want saved.  The idea of spending an eternity kissing a god's ass does not appeal to me.  Especially, if I had to do it with Christians around me.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 03:47:36 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Religions are the dingle berries on the butt hairs of civilization.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2018, 04:28:29 PM »
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him.
I mean...I want to talk to him openly and ask him questions.  His lack of participation is part of the reason I'm an atheist.

Quote
It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18
Yeah but if the child doesn't ask politely they still receive a response of some manner, unambiguously indicating that their father both a) exists and b) heard the child (it should be noted that the father's response isn't intended to assert existence but rather it's just a necessary side effect of engagement).  At a minimum, the father tells the child about this whole 'ask politely' business.  The father doesn't just assume that the child's friends at the playground told them to ask politely.  The father would interact with the child.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #106 on: November 09, 2018, 04:46:28 PM »
I'm glad you do good things because you want a better society, I'm sure you are a good person (or as good as people can get considering we are all human and therefore fallible).

It appears you don't really believe what you think you believe. This is not compatible with your statement that atheists feel and live like teenagers having a party and going nuts when their parents are away, enjoying the short time when it feels like they don't have to be accountable to anyone.

As for God playing hide and seek, most people on here have already said they would not believe in Jesus even if they had evidence.

You're new here so naturally you're not familiar with our histories, but you should be aware many (most?) of us were believers before we left the faith. We accepted the story without evidence. We even believed we had evidence![1]

And still, that's what gets my funny bone the most. If Xianity works on faith, why bother with evidence at all?
 1. please Jesus, if you're listening, don't let him appeal to NTS again, lol!
I meant atheists want to live like teenagers without parents because they don't want to be accountable in their FAITH, not so much in their DEEDS (though there are plenty of atheists who think accepting God means they can't have any fun). That's why I said it is your faith that counts when it comes to being saved.

Lets be honest, saying you accepted Jesus as your savior does not sound like a fun weekend activity for a lot of people

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2018, 06:39:54 PM »
Quad, I don't need to be "saved".  There is nothing to be saved from or for.  You see, there has to be a god thing in order to be "saved".  And I do not see evidence all around.  I see nothing god related at all.  I understand your need for the god crutch.  Great.  People use a lot of different crutches...alcohol, drug, cults/religion.  Does not make it real.  Actually, if your God was real I still would not want saved.  The idea of spending an eternity kissing a god's ass does not appeal to me.  Especially, if I had to do it with Christians around me.
Ha ha, that made me laugh (even tho its disrespectful to God, hope he will forgive the laugh). Not sure why you call God a crutch Nick. Yeah people lean on him when they need help but he is SO much more than someone to turn to when youre down.

If you don't think you need to be saved let me ask you this, where do you want to spend the rest of eternity after you die? You really want to be in hell? I'm thinking theres a part of you that wants to be in heaven, even if you say you would hate to be around God and Christians for eternity. Would you really rather be with Satan and his demons instead?


Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2018, 06:42:57 PM »
God wants us to pray because that deepens our relationship with him. Even though he knows what we want he still wants us to talk to him openly and ask him.
I mean...I want to talk to him openly and ask him questions.  His lack of participation is part of the reason I'm an atheist.

Quote
It's like a father knowing that a child wants a toy but still would prefer the child ask politely and say please. "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." –Ephesians 6:18
Yeah but if the child doesn't ask politely they still receive a response of some manner, unambiguously indicating that their father both a) exists and b) heard the child (it should be noted that the father's response isn't intended to assert existence but rather it's just a necessary side effect of engagement).  At a minimum, the father tells the child about this whole 'ask politely' business.  The father doesn't just assume that the child's friends at the playground told them to ask politely.  The father would interact with the child.
There's no lack of participation on God's part. If you sincerely talk to him he will answer, he will interact with you as you say. You may not want to listen to his reply or be too stubborn to accept him. But he will never force you to accept him, that's one of the beautiful and terrifying things about God...he gives you the power to choose.

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2018, 07:23:26 PM »
Quad, I don't need to be "saved".  There is nothing to be saved from or for.  You see, there has to be a god thing in order to be "saved".  And I do not see evidence all around.  I see nothing god related at all.  I understand your need for the god crutch.  Great.  People use a lot of different crutches...alcohol, drug, cults/religion.  Does not make it real.  Actually, if your God was real I still would not want saved.  The idea of spending an eternity kissing a god's ass does not appeal to me.  Especially, if I had to do it with Christians around me.
Ha ha, that made me laugh (even tho its disrespectful to God, hope he will forgive the laugh). Not sure why you call God a crutch Nick. Yeah people lean on him when they need help but he is SO much more than someone to turn to when youre down.

If you don't think you need to be saved let me ask you this, where do you want to spend the rest of eternity after you die? You really want to be in hell? I'm thinking theres a part of you that wants to be in heaven, even if you say you would hate to be around God and Christians for eternity. Would you really rather be with Satan and his demons instead?
There are no demons, there are no gods/heaven.  So I will not spend eternity anywhere.  It will be just like it was before I was born.  That is it.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Religions are the dingle berries on the butt hairs of civilization.

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2018, 07:26:53 PM »
Quad, I don't need to be "saved".  There is nothing to be saved from or for.  You see, there has to be a god thing in order to be "saved".  And I do not see evidence all around.  I see nothing god related at all.  I understand your need for the god crutch.  Great.  People use a lot of different crutches...alcohol, drug, cults/religion.  Does not make it real.  Actually, if your God was real I still would not want saved.  The idea of spending an eternity kissing a god's ass does not appeal to me.  Especially, if I had to do it with Christians around me.
Ha ha, that made me laugh (even tho its disrespectful to God, hope he will forgive the laugh). Not sure why you call God a crutch Nick. Yeah people lean on him when they need help but he is SO much more than someone to turn to when youre down.

If you don't think you need to be saved let me ask you this, where do you want to spend the rest of eternity after you die? You really want to be in hell? I'm thinking theres a part of you that wants to be in heaven, even if you say you would hate to be around God and Christians for eternity. Would you really rather be with Satan and his demons instead?
There are no demons, there are no gods/heaven.  So I will not spend eternity anywhere.  It will be just like it was before I was born.  That is it.
Does He really, Quad?  Does He give you the right to choose?  Let's look at that.  I think you call it Free Will.  If it was really a choice then I could choose to accept the God thing or not.  That would be free will.  But NO.  That is not the choice.  The choice is choose God or burn in hell forever.  Now what kind of choice is that?  It is more like domestic abuse.  Love Me or else?  Is that the loving God you feel so close to?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Religions are the dingle berries on the butt hairs of civilization.

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2018, 07:39:23 PM »
Nick, here's what free will means. You can choose to be with God for eternity, or you can choose to be separated from him for eternity. It seems like a no brainer to me but surprisingly many people want to choose separation. And God doesn't want that but he won't force you to be with him if you don't want. It's not like domestic abuse at all.

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2018, 07:43:08 PM »
Still love Me or else.   Why does there need to be punishment for choosing not to go with the God thing?  Why can't you just not exist?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Religions are the dingle berries on the butt hairs of civilization.

Offline Quad

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
It's not that God says love me or else. He says "choose my son so he can save you from your sin and eternal death" If you don't choose him then you are committing the worst kind of crime, much worse than a crime against a human. So of course the punishment will be worse than a regular crime. A regular crime like theft or even murder gets you many years in prison. But a crime against the Almighty will be much more severe. That's just simple logic.

It sounds scary yes, but the good news is you have a simple way out. Just choose Jesus and salvation!

Offline Nick

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2018, 07:55:35 PM »
That is a cop out.  It is choose Me or else.  No way around that.  But let's move on.  You mentioned choosing the Son.  Why the Jesus character?  Why does He exist?  I am guessing that since you pin the Earth at 6000 years you must buy into the Adam and Eve story.  So let's go there.  Original sin is what we need forgiveness for.  The biting of the apple.  Terrible thing. 
What if Eve had not taken the apple and said no thank you.  Was that a choice for her?  Would there be a need for the Jesus character if she had said NO?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Religions are the dingle berries on the butt hairs of civilization.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: If jesus appeared to you.
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2018, 09:33:17 PM »
It sounds scary yes, but the good news is you have a simple way out. Just choose Jesus and salvation!

I can choose that now, but the NT says I have to give all my money away to anyone who asks, avoid looking at women, pray in a closet, be perfect like God, follow all Jewish law, except when it would result in the death of a man. Why should I take your word above Jesus?

One big reason priests deconvert often is that they see how their congregation behaves, and it's nothing like what Jesus seems to suggest. Imagine you are preaching to 100 people, and only two of them seem to be acting as the Sermon on The Mount suggests people should behave. The idea that you are saved by Grace (which is not even mentioned in Matthew) seems to corrode people's determination to do as Jesus says. Imagine you are a Catholic priest, listening to people's venal petty confessions every day. Where is Jesus?
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.