Author Topic: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying  (Read 993 times)

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Offline Angel

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2018, 10:35:04 PM »
Pretty much always, yes. If it's supernatural, by definition, it would be beyond the grasp of humans to recognize or interact with. so I have no problem whatsoever being biased against the supernatural - or as most people would say, sane.

Okay, well, you are aware that at one time not so long ago giant squid and whales were thought to be supernatural?
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2018, 11:07:58 PM »
Pretty much always, yes. If it's supernatural, by definition, it would be beyond the grasp of humans to recognize or interact with. so I have no problem whatsoever being biased against the supernatural - or as most people would

Okay, well, you are aware that at one time not so long ago giant squid and whales were thought to be supernatural?

Oh shit Jag, now he's using science on your ass, and like he says, you can't rely on  science.

Angel your juxtapositioning of statements works for either side of the argument.

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I'm up on a tightrope, one side is hate and one is hope.

You make juxtaposed statements about this Jehovah guy that turns that statement into both sides are hope. Sorry buddy, you are not dealing with reality when you do that. You've conditioned yourself to out Jehovah in a win/win situation no matter what, that is not healthy.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 11:11:58 PM by stuffin »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2018, 06:36:36 AM »
Show me where I asked for proof? Or do you not know the difference? Ignorance is OK, calling someone an idiot is the Christian thing to do, I guess?
Show me where I said "I don't believe in God because..."

You don't need to do anything more than state that you have no way of demonstrating or showing evidence of your god. You can simply say there is no way to falsify your god. That's really all you need to do. Most people can and do accept reality without much debate. It's the god stuff that gets people in a huff - especially when all they have is what they were told by someone else using the same technique.

You mean like when you were a kid and you were told that Santa Clause is real and then sometime later were told that Santa Clause wasn't real and you believed each time without any thought? And then, still later, feeling all smug and confident you passed 3 Santa Clauses on the street on your way to the mall to take your kid . . . to see Santa Clause?

Now answer me this one question. Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

Dodging. Noted.

Again, you ignore what I am actually saying and try to equivocate between your belief system and science. I do understand that when one embraces mythology and superstition there is no practical way to share those things with the real world and be taken seriously. Assuming you are an adult, do you think it is appropriate to take childhood mentality and apply it as a comparison to actual science and the methods used to understand our world?

Look, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Parents are even free to tell their kids that God is real, just like Santa Claus. We are not scientists here, just people who prefer reality based explanations even when they are not perfect. Science is not always right, but it is self-correcting by design. Many of us here do take the time to investigate critical historical information about scripture, and we do it on purpose. We want to know what reality has to say about the writings. The belief system is irrelevant outside of itself.

People like you that come to the forum and try to tell others what the Bible means are nothing new. And so far, you have not presented anything outside of what you believe. You could, I suppose, but for some reason you won't. You seem content in a mild form of preaching, where apparently everyone is supposed to be in awe of your knowledge. I'm not in awe. Unless you come forward with something more robust than platitudes and opinions, you're just another theist. Someone who apparently believes that you can just interpret your way to an explanation - one that satisfies you personally, but does absolutely nothing to move a real conversation forward.

Let me also say without hesitation, if there is a god, I can be convinced. It's just going to take more than trying to tell me what your beliefs are, or what they are based on without connecting it to something outside fo your own head.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2018, 07:14:37 AM »
Who was Jesus talking to?

believers.  Who do you think he was talking to? And nice to see you wanting to take the common Christian excuse that those inconvenient things that the bible says only apply to the direct supposed listeners.  Of course, you insist that those parts that agree with your own personal hates and desires must apply to everyone, like the claim that homosexuals deserve death/should be killed, etc. 
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or god is simply imaginary and couldn't do anything at all.  Since no one is healed by magic, then there is no reason to believe it could be denied or actually done.  It's no more believable than being healed by the golden fleece.

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Is that your answer? The reason God doesn't heal amputees is that he is imaginary?

That God doesn't do *anything* because it is imaginary. Please do get it right.  Your god heals no one, angel.  Supposedly your god promised that anyone who believes in him and who was baptized can do the same magic as he could.  Supposedly just some oil and elders of the church can heal any harm to a human.  And that never happens.  It's all stories.   You want to claim that Paul supposedly had bad eyesight.  Oh darn, not that this ever happens to anyone (as I sit here with 20/400 or worse vision in each eye).  &)  and this god decided not to heal that.  Kinda is bad advertising and an excuse by Paul why his god can't do anything for him, his supposedly extra special apostle.  I can easily imagine that people around Paul wondered why if he was just so wonderful, and his god healed people, they would wonder why Paul didn't rate.  He had to come up with an excuse why.     

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If I told you about my prayer to God and how it was answered, you would simply dismiss it as coincidence, correct?

No.  But nice try again to create an excuse for yourself, angel.  Tell me what your prayer was and how it was answered.  I will consider the facts.   I will compare your claims with other claims.  And we will see what the result is.   

Okay, well, you are aware that at one time not so long ago giant squid and whales were thought to be supernatural?

wrong, they were thought to be imaginary.  Just like your god.  We have evidence now.  And how long have theists been desperately searching for evidence for their god?  At least a thousand years, if not more.  Archaeology has shown the bible to be nonsense for every supposed special event that it claims.   The few things that have panned out are no more than the Greeks also mentioning Athens when they claim that their gods contested over it to have the right to having it named after them.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:17:44 AM by velkyn »
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Offline clip11

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2018, 07:42:51 AM »
This is same stuff we keep hearing from theists, if it happens god wanted it to happen, if it doesn't happen god didn't want it to happen, therefore god exists. Certainly puts angel in a no lose situation.

Same old atheist responses. If a man robs a church, stealing money from the funds that would go to innocent children who need life support on Christmas day, and that man is killed crossing the street by an Angel Soft © Dry Cleaner's truck God didn't do it. It was a disconnected series of events. Coincidence. It wasn't Karma either. That's just dumb. Okay? Make sense to you?

God doesn't fly around the country with a magic wand waiting for poor innocent people that need his help. It doesn't work like that, and it never has. Get over it.

If you don't like my explanation provide a better one and back it up like I can mine.

The apostle Paul couldn't see very well. (Galatians 4:15; 6:11) He prayed to have this fixed and was denied. (2 Corinthians 12:7-9) Now, is my interpretation of Paul's poor eyesight correct? Possibly. Am I the only one with this interpretation? Not at all. Research it. Nevertheless, at 2 Corinthians 12:7-9 he talks about praying that his "thorn" be removed and God refusing. That. Is how it works.
We're putting the cart before the horse here, aren't we? You haven't yet demonstrated the existence of your god. You're just sitting here making things up as you go along.

Offline clip11

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2018, 07:48:23 AM »
I don't think anyone has accused one of us of having "meaty atheist hooks" before. Congrats on thinking up a new one!

That said, you're starting to sound a bit... much.

And you are starting to sound proudly biased against the supernatural.
More like a bias against unfalsifiable claims.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2018, 08:15:05 AM »
Angel,

Will you please answer my questions. I know it's hard to keep up, but I am waiting with anticipation.

Thanks, JB
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Offline clip11

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2018, 08:49:22 AM »
What light?

This is not about what someone wants. It's about what is demonstrable using reality. It's not about your interpretation or anyone else's. It's about using the common grounding and methodology that is repeatable, verifiable, and falsifiable for starters. It's about being honest when there is no answer to a specific question. It's about the ability to say "I don't know" when you reach a dead end. It's not about proclaiming a truth you cannot prove or demonstrate.

Bullshit. Atheist always lean on science in an intellectually dishonest attempt to avoid accountability. There is little in life that you can prove. You can't even prove what you had for breakfast or lunch today. The "I don't believe in God because there is no methodology that is repeatable, verifiable, and falsifiable" is a cowardly crock of shit.
I remember when I was 5 and my cousin was 7 at the time. The Disney movie Alladin had just came out at the movie theater and my dad took us to see it. Being 5 I thought that movie corresponded with reality.

So me and my cousin were at our grandparents house and in the backyard and we decided to start digging in the ground, truly believing that if we dug deep enough, we would find a lamp containing a magic genie.

Of course, no such thing was ever found and the only thing that happened was me and my cousin came in the house covered with dirt. My grandma tried telling us that we would find no such thing, but we were certain about magic genie.

Now, about 25 or so years later, I no longer believe in lamps containing magic genie and so you wouldn't find me digging for one today.

Now, between that time and this, have I conclusively disproven magic genies? Have I shown once and for all that no magic genies exist or have ever existed anywhere in the universe or maybe in any alternative universes? No. And I don't have to.

What I do know is this.....as far as the real world and universe that I inhabit is concerned, there has never been any evidence detected of a magic genie. There is nothing that we know of in this universe that requires as the best explanation a magic genie.

This alleged entity (magic genies) has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe anything or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful.

And the same can be said for anyone's god.

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2018, 09:14:51 AM »
Show me where I asked for proof? Or do you not know the difference? Ignorance is OK, calling someone an idiot is the Christian thing to do, I guess?
Show me where I said "I don't believe in God because..."

You don't need to do anything more than state that you have no way of demonstrating or showing evidence of your god. You can simply say there is no way to falsify your god. That's really all you need to do. Most people can and do accept reality without much debate. It's the god stuff that gets people in a huff - especially when all they have is what they were told by someone else using the same technique.

You mean like when you were a kid and you were told that Santa Clause is real and then sometime later were told that Santa Clause wasn't real and you believed each time without any thought? And then, still later, feeling all smug and confident you passed 3 Santa Clauses on the street on your way to the mall to take your kid . . . to see Santa Clause?

Now answer me this one question. Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

Some amputees do heal - just not human ones. Spiders, lizards, starfish are examples.

I don't think you're helping your case by calling arguments a crock of S***.  Anyone on here that's on the fence of whether or not there's a God is probably reading what you say and thinking "Does this guy really seem like someone with God working in him?  A guy calling arguments a crock of S*** and getting all flustered?" 

I'd think your debate might go better if you kept your cool and calmly made your points.  If you're certain you have the right answers, why be so upset?

Offline Jag

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2018, 10:08:55 AM »
Pretty much always, yes. If it's supernatural, by definition, it would be beyond the grasp of humans to recognize or interact with. so I have no problem whatsoever being biased against the supernatural - or as most people would say, sane.

Okay, well, you are aware that at one time not so long ago giant squid and whales were thought to be supernatural?

What does that have to do with what I said? Are you using a different definition of supernatural? If so, please share it, because obviously, giant squid and whales are not supernatural.

My bias remains firmly in place.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2018, 10:34:30 AM »
With respect again Angel, your first post in here does come off as changing the goal posts. The bible states differently.

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
If "every one who asks receives",

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus say:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.“

If there are all these extra strings attached why wasn’t this explained earlier? Why are different things said here in these passages?

Offline albeto

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2018, 11:50:27 AM »
When considering the alleged contradiction of God being able to do everything or not, in this case specifically to defend Israel against iron chariots, it is important to be aware of the stipulations that Jehovah God gave Israel for his doing so....

You extrapolated from other parts of the bible the explanation that fits your narrative. You're not the first theist to do it and won't be the last. While I recognize it makes perfect sense to you, you might want to consider that because this is based on your personal faith, it's not very compelling objectively.

But more interesting is the fact that you didn't consider the analogy of Jehovah punching a child in the face. I was listening to a podcast featuring a researcher the other day about what motivates humans, and one comment made was the idea that in medieval Europe, one had a king but everyone else had tyrants. The idea being, humans are social creatures and we have a vested interest in not being too far down on the pecking order. Research actually shows there is a correlation between that and genetic health. Go figure. Anyway, we don't like it, it's not good for us, but we cannot all realistically be on top.

Beautiful, complex, clever brains that we have, we solve this problem by justifying our position in the pecking order. Even though we don't like the pecking order and we recognize it's not inherently fair, and we have a biological drive to support fairness, we have to submit to authority in some way. The way we do that without tailspinning into a depression is to identify our own king as good and strong and loyal kings who will take care of us. But of course everyone else has tyrants. Your king proverbially punches children in the face, but what a good and strong and loyal king he is. He's on your side. How fortunate for you.

But what you seem to be missing is that because we don't share your faith, because we don't accept your interpretations of your personal experiences, we don't see this king as good or strong or loyal. Or even real. The history of this character, as you know, predates the Jews. We can follow its history, its evolution. At no place in its history is any supernatural or divine component apparent. In no instance do we need to attribute supernatural or divine intervention into reality. It's just not necessary, or reasonable when considering information we do have, despite how strong and good and loyal you believe it to be.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Response To GII Proof #1 - Try Praying
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2018, 03:02:49 PM »
This is a believer's response to God Is Imaginary Proof #1 - Try Praying.

There are logical steps one must take in order for a prayer to Jehovah God be answered. First and foremost the prayer request must be in line with the will of the God to whom you are praying.

It is the will of God for homosexuals and adulterers be put to death. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. So, if I prayed in earnest for God's will to be done on earth then I should expect that all faggots and cheaters and practitioners of magic will be killed in the name of God according to his will correct?

It's been over 2000 years and there are still faggots and adulterers and witches on this earth. Are you telling me that there have been no Christians praying for God's will to be done?
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