Author Topic: Why do you trust the Bible?  (Read 328 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Why do you trust the Bible?
« on: June 28, 2018, 10:58:21 AM »
Besides magicmiles, I'm sure you (christians) all know that the scrolls making up the Bible were assembled and edited (i.e.: altered/changed) by the catholic church. Many scrolls from that time period were left out, and if the unedited versions still exist, they're sealed in the Vatican's libraries, for nobody to see. One such scroll was discovered a while ago, pertaining to the nature of Asherah, wife of YHWH.

Even if the god of the Bible does exist, its true nature is not knowable by reading the Bible, which, as I mentioned before, was edited to suit the catholic church. So, why do you put so much stock in a borderline forged document?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 09:23:21 PM »
Passage mining....by their church leaders keep them trusting the Bible....like war and peace ....it's a dammed big book..... I'm sure both have some interesting point... hell if I'm gonna waste my time reading outdated texts
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2018, 03:33:19 AM »
I'm not surprised that no theist dared touch the subject that their book was edited before being given to them. After all, the book is all they have.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2018, 07:06:56 AM »
the point that the bible is all they have is pretty pertinent.  There is no evidence for the events that make the bible the bible.

I have spent time reading it, and it's a lot of repetition, incompetent repetition.   A lot of the contradictions in the bible come from people simply having more than one version of supposed events.  Which indicates that it is a human construct, by some rather ignorant humans.

In one of my more recent interactions with a Christian, one that supports Trump, this individual had no idea what his bible actually says.  He insisted that it doesn't speak against adulterers, that it only mentions one anti-Christ, etc.   When I shoed him the "chapter and verse", he tried the common claim that I "didn't understand" it.  That's funny coming from a person who never read it in the first place.

People trust things usually because someone else, whom they had reason to trust, told them it was true.  It's a lazy, and very human misapplication of trust.   

It's truly pathetic on how most Christians have no idea what they claim to believe in. 
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Offline clip11

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2018, 08:16:28 AM »
the point that the bible is all they have is pretty pertinent.  There is no evidence for the events that make the bible the bible.

I have spent time reading it, and it's a lot of repetition, incompetent repetition.   A lot of the contradictions in the bible come from people simply having more than one version of supposed events.  Which indicates that it is a human construct, by some rather ignorant humans.

In one of my more recent interactions with a Christian, one that supports Trump, this individual had no idea what his bible actually says.  He insisted that it doesn't speak against adulterers, that it only mentions one anti-Christ, etc.   When I shoed him the "chapter and verse", he tried the common claim that I "didn't understand" it.  That's funny coming from a person who never read it in the first place.

People trust things usually because someone else, whom they had reason to trust, told them it was true.  It's a lazy, and very human misapplication of trust.   

It's truly pathetic on how most Christians have no idea what they claim to believe in.
I thought about the biblical story of King Solomon and the ancient Hebrew empire. According to the Bible, it was this great and grand empire and Solomon was supposedly the wisest king and wealthiest king to ever live.

Except there's no evidence of it. I could go to a museum right now and see exhibits about the ancient Egyptian, ancient Babylonian, the ancient Chinese empires etc. But none about Solomon and this vast Hebrew empire. From what I understand, there's no record in the history books of other kingdoms and empires that Solomon would've likely co existed with of him or his empire. Three thousand years from today when historians are looking at historical documents from what would then be ancient North Korea, I'm sure they'll find many mentions of a President Donald Trump and some country called the United States of America.

Growing up hearing that all of these stories were literally true, I expected to see evidence of such things. When I was in school, history books mentioned ancient Egypt, the British empire, ancient Babylon but no Solomon.  No mention of his grand and glorious temple he supposedly built. Of course at the time I rationalized it by convincing myself that there was some conspiracy to hide "the truth" so people wouldn't know that the Bible was right.

Of course, I had no evidence of any such conspiracy.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2018, 09:00:50 AM »
the point that the bible is all they have is pretty pertinent.  There is no evidence for the events that make the bible the bible.

I have spent time reading it, and it's a lot of repetition, incompetent repetition.   A lot of the contradictions in the bible come from people simply having more than one version of supposed events.  Which indicates that it is a human construct, by some rather ignorant humans.

In one of my more recent interactions with a Christian, one that supports Trump, this individual had no idea what his bible actually says.  He insisted that it doesn't speak against adulterers, that it only mentions one anti-Christ, etc.   When I shoed him the "chapter and verse", he tried the common claim that I "didn't understand" it.  That's funny coming from a person who never read it in the first place.

People trust things usually because someone else, whom they had reason to trust, told them it was true.  It's a lazy, and very human misapplication of trust.   

It's truly pathetic on how most Christians have no idea what they claim to believe in.

That is the thing that bothers me the most. I have never read the bible, even when I believed, cause I trusted the source(s). It took me many years without reading the bible, to come to the conclusion there is no god. But these proclaimed religious folks know so little of what's in it. They know a few quotes, mostly the ones that portray the bible as something extraordinary. The Atheists here can out quote just about any Christian regarding the bible.

One of the big differences between Atheists and Christians with the bible; Christians study from the bible, they do not study the bible itself. That is to say the do not critically take into account how it was conceived, the documented history of the geographical area or the time is was written in. All things that provide evidence for not trusting the bible. Many Christians do this intentionally, hard to believe they are that shit scared of what's coming after they die.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2018, 09:23:21 AM »
I thought about the biblical story of King Solomon and the ancient Hebrew empire. According to the Bible, it was this great and grand empire and Solomon was supposedly the wisest king and wealthiest king to ever live.

Except there's no evidence of it. I could go to a museum right now and see exhibits about the ancient Egyptian, ancient Babylonian, the ancient Chinese empires etc. But none about Solomon and this vast Hebrew empire. From what I understand, there's no record in the history books of other kingdoms and empires that Solomon would've likely co existed with of him or his empire. Three thousand years from today when historians are looking at historical documents from what would then be ancient North Korea, I'm sure they'll find many mentions of a President Donald Trump and some country called the United States of America.

Growing up hearing that all of these stories were literally true, I expected to see evidence of such things. When I was in school, history books mentioned ancient Egypt, the British empire, ancient Babylon but no Solomon.  No mention of his grand and glorious temple he supposedly built. Of course at the time I rationalized it by convincing myself that there was some conspiracy to hide "the truth" so people wouldn't know that the Bible was right.

Of course, I had no evidence of any such conspiracy.

indeed.  for having the "wisest man in the world",  the ancient Hebrew culture is quite deficient in producing anything of value. 
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2018, 10:09:56 AM »
When I first started questioning religion and god, I was astonishingly naive. I was young, and lived in a small town - to my knowledge, people went to church and God was real. It really was that simple.

I grew up Catholic, and while I'm not about to say my experience was universal, I can say that I had little reason to read the bible. It wasn't necessary - the priest knew what his job was, and I knew that mine was to listen to him. I think not being very invested in the Bible independent from the clergy is not all that uncommon among Catholics in the US. It may be more generational than I realize though - I haven't had any real association with the church in decades, and have encountered some weird changes among young Catholics in recent years.

I was well into adulthood before I ever encountered a bible literalist, and TBH, I was nearly speechless the first time it happened. The idea of anyone taking the Bible as literal truth was actually laughable, and I responded by G'ingTFO at the first opportunity to avoid laughing in their face. I seriously thought I had encountered an oddity, not a representative of an entire movement. It took several more years for me to realize that this was inarguable a 'thing'.

Starting to speak out as an atheist was what finally led me to read the Bible. I've STILL not managed to get through the entire mess at one go, but I'm all but certain I've at least skimmed the vast majority of it (allowing for skipping such essential information as the endless string of 'begats' and such). It might be the case that since I was never deeply invested in the Bible as a historical document (it was more like a story with important point about how to be a good person and how to interact with others than anything, in my admittedly faulty memory),it's no difficulty to find it so utterly unimpressive now. I gave up on the Bible LONG before I gave up on God. I just figured humans had done their usual thing and fucked up the actual point. I still do think that, just not the way I meant it then.

Do I find it interesting? Oh my Thor yes - as a cultural artifact.

Do I find it credible? Absolutely not, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand how ANYONE can.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2018, 10:18:00 AM »
I'm not surprised that no theist dared touch the subject that their book was edited before being given to them. After all, the book is all they have.

To be fair, I think the only Bible-believing theists here anymore are Jst, John, magicmiles, and OCG.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2018, 10:20:57 AM »
^^^and three of those four disagree with each other.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2018, 04:28:36 PM »
^^^and three of those four disagree with each other.

I assume you mean John, Jst, and MM? OCG seems pretty chill.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2018, 08:03:56 PM »
It's sad isn't it, that they can't tell you why they trust it? Most of my interaction with fundies is with my mother whom I mention often. We recently had the slavery discussion and she was legit unaware of the slavery portions and chose to rely on the argument that had been fed her about endentured servants. She said I wouldn't understand because I don't have the holy spook. Then I got her to read the passages.

Didn't change a thing though. I guess that's the frustrating part, you can prove to them that they're wrong and it means nothing. And they'll go on trusting whatever it is that they thought it said as if the who event never happened.

Offline Jag

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2018, 08:23:04 PM »
^^^and three of those four disagree with each other.

I assume you mean John, Jst, and MM? OCG seems pretty chill.

Yes. OCG is quite likely the chillest theist to grace these pages.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2018, 08:39:34 PM »
^^^and three of those four disagree with each other.

I assume you mean John, Jst, and MM? OCG seems pretty chill.

Yes. OCG is quite likely the chillest theist to grace these pages.

Honestly I'm really glad he's part of these forums—not only because he's chill in general, but his spiritual perspective is closest to how mine used to be.
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Offline clip11

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2018, 08:57:05 PM »
It's sad isn't it, that they can't tell you why they trust it? Most of my interaction with fundies is with my mother whom I mention often. We recently had the slavery discussion and she was legit unaware of the slavery portions and chose to rely on the argument that had been fed her about endentured servants. She said I wouldn't understand because I don't have the holy spook. Then I got her to read the passages.

Didn't change a thing though. I guess that's the frustrating part, you can prove to them that they're wrong and it means nothing. And they'll go on trusting whatever it is that they thought it said as if the who event never happened.
That's because their beliefs are based in emotions, not logic.

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2018, 09:55:43 PM »
For the sake of discussion I could answer based on my religious beliefs when I first got here.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2018, 07:42:39 AM »
When I first started questioning religion and god, I was astonishingly naive. I was young, and lived in a small town - to my knowledge, people went to church and God was real. It really was that simple.

I grew up Catholic, and while I'm not about to say my experience was universal, I can say that I had little reason to read the bible. It wasn't necessary - the priest knew what his job was, and I knew that mine was to listen to him. I think not being very invested in the Bible independent from the clergy is not all that uncommon among Catholics in the US. It may be more generational than I realize though - I haven't had any real association with the church in decades, and have encountered some weird changes among young Catholics in recent years.

I was well into adulthood before I ever encountered a bible literalist, and TBH, I was nearly speechless the first time it happened. The idea of anyone taking the Bible as literal truth was actually laughable, and I responded by G'ingTFO at the first opportunity to avoid laughing in their face. I seriously thought I had encountered an oddity, not a representative of an entire movement. It took several more years for me to realize that this was inarguable a 'thing'.

Starting to speak out as an atheist was what finally led me to read the Bible. I've STILL not managed to get through the entire mess at one go, but I'm all but certain I've at least skimmed the vast majority of it (allowing for skipping such essential information as the endless string of 'begats' and such). It might be the case that since I was never deeply invested in the Bible as a historical document (it was more like a story with important point about how to be a good person and how to interact with others than anything, in my admittedly faulty memory),it's no difficulty to find it so utterly unimpressive now. I gave up on the Bible LONG before I gave up on God. I just figured humans had done their usual thing and fucked up the actual point. I still do think that, just not the way I meant it then.

Do I find it interesting? Oh my Thor yes - as a cultural artifact.

Do I find it credible? Absolutely not, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand how ANYONE can.

My journey to atheism is much like yours. I concluded the buybull was not an accurate description of an all-loving God. That happened after 3 chapters of Genesis.

It does matter that there are more variations of the NT than there are words in the NT. All the human footprints throughout the buybull makes it obviously clear it is not written by a super duper god.

That did not stop me from believing in gods. The thing that got me was the animal condition. You know how animals other than humans had to struggle to survive. That got me right there. I will never forget those 5 baby fox that were eaten by that male fox. Never, ever, ever forget.

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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2018, 03:52:21 PM »
I wish I could go back in time to May 2011.  This is when I drove myself and 5 other Christians to the NEXT Conference in Orlando, Florida.  I drove 14 hours each way, and did it happily...

One of the breakout sessions to this event was titled "How Can We Trust What's In Our Bibles?"  It would be fascinating to go back and listen to this presentation (I don't think it's on YouTube or anywhere on the net).  I remember being very interested in the topic, and how it would be addressed.  I remember the pastor teaching the class saying "Many atheists say that when we reference the Bible to prove the Bible we are using circular logic."  He then said this is the one exception because it's the word of God and then spent the rest of the class quoting from the Bible.  I had never heard of circular logic until he brought it up, but I remember thinking "But he's using it to make his point!"  I didn't realize it at the time, but this was going to have a big effect on me moving forward.

I attended another class entitled "The New Atheists", about Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris.  They talked about their arrogance and how could these people deny the Word of God, and think they knew all the answers?  Again I was thinking to myself "But aren't we acting like we know the answers?" 

I have never been an intellect nor did I have any grasp on Philosophy, but at this event, I could start to see through the thin veneer of the Bible.  But I was only in the faith for 3 years, and wanted to believe.  I also wanted to believe there was something better than what was currently out there - including better people. 

I think some people read the Bible and think "it fits exactly how I'm feeling.  And hey, just like it says, there are people that deny and won't accept the Word, and call us crazy.  Just as predicted."  They may feel this gives the book credibility in their own minds, so that may be partly why they trust it.

This was the promotional video for NEXT 2011.  It was shown at our church - now I look at it, and gosh, it's so cultish.  It looks like a Scientology video...

https://vimeo.com/16966214

« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:09:27 PM by YouCantHandleTheTruth »

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2018, 11:45:05 PM »
*Recalls my early 2016 mindset*

Honestly, I trusted the Bible because at least the major things seemed to align with history, like Jesus at least being mentioned to exist outside of the Bible. Also many cultures all around the world have had stories regarding a widespread flood, so I figured there could be some truth to it.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2018, 07:32:25 AM »
[snip] ...so I figured there could be some truth to it.

Think about that phrase for a moment. Why would one even question it in the first place? When our parents teach us things like oceans, the sky, giraffes, and colors, those are facts, not stories. There are no alternatives to those things. There is no "narrative" that comes along with telling a child what the moon is. Then there are other things that are categorically not facts, like ghosts, fairies, and Santa Claus.

It is telling that we share these things with our children in very different ways. Santa Claus comes with conditions - you better behave, or he won't leave you gifts. The tooth fairy only comes when you're sound asleep, etc. There are no conditions to oceans, mountains, the sky, the moon, the animals - they are mundane, unadulterated facts. Then there are gods.

The very root of the major religions is based on individual men having a relationship with a god, and then sharing that with the rest of us as truth - you better believe it or else...

Look how we teach religions/gods. The challenge is that a child has a hard time accepting something that cannot be demonstrated in nature. So the parent resorts to all sorts of creative approaches to explaining that which is completely invisible and has all of the attributes of a loving, caring, father figure. A child knows what a father figure is, so the connection is easy to make. But hard to maintain as a child gets older - just like with Santa Claus.

We question, and we are skeptical about many things. This is probably a survival mechanism from our evolutionary past. Each generation learns a little more than the last, and slowly we peel away the layers of ignorance that we have carried forward as a species. I have no doubt that YHWH and Jesus will be mostly mythology one day.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2018, 08:11:10 AM »
great observation, Jetson  :)
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Why do you trust the Bible?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2018, 06:42:01 AM »
Very well said, Jetson. How people are raised definitely plays the central part in how people believe. I'm pretty that most religious believers believe the way they do because of the faith they were raised in, since you hear that much more often than "I wasn't raised religious but came to it later in life".

If people weren't raised on religion from a young age, and only decided on their own later like at 16, I think we'd have a lot less religious people in the world.
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