Author Topic: What am I missing here?  (Read 371 times)

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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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What am I missing here?
« on: June 18, 2018, 08:36:51 PM »
I was doing a bit of goggling and reading, with no particular roadmap. I came across this:

https://www.livescience.com/1774-greatest-mysteries-universe.html

Now, I don't know anything about the reliability of the authors/contributors etc. I have just read the article and taken it at face value.

It seems to me that, fundamentally, the question "How did the universe begin?" is answered with "Early in its history, there was a sudden massive expansion...(etc etc )"

But surely that isn't answering the question? Exactly WHAT expanded? Where did it come from? Is there an article of some sort which addresses this?

Offline wright

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2018, 09:39:18 PM »
Legit question, magic. Here is the "no-boundary" (as in, there was no clear boundary after which the universe began existing) explanation, according the late Stephen Hawking. AFAIK, this currently has the most going for it, in that it fits what we can figure out about the very early state of the universe...

http://www.livescience.com/61914-stephen-hawking-neil-degrasse-tyson-beginning-of-time.html

From that article:
Quote
Put another way, time as we understand it literally did not exist before the universe started to expand. Rather, the arrow of time shrinks infinitely as the universe becomes smaller and smaller, never reaching a clear starting point.

According to TechTimes, Hawking says during the show that before the Big Bang, time was bent — "It was always reaching closer to nothing but didn't become nothing," according to the article. Essentially, "there was never a Big Bang that produced something from nothing. It just seemed that way from mankind's point of perspective."

In in a lecture on the no-boundary proposal, Hawking wrote: "Events before the Big Bang are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them. Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang."

In other words, as counter-intuitive (like a lot of advanced physics and cosmology) as it seems, time itself- or at least, time as we experience it- didn't exist past a certain point. Thus, to even ask "what came before time began" becomes nonsensical.

One thing to compare it to might be trying to exceed the speed of light: no matter how hard you push your spacecraft, the inherent properties of the universe- including time- simply can't permit anything with mass to go faster than light. And the faster you go, the more massive you become relative to the rest of the universe... so there you are, chasing a velocity / boundary that just can't be passed.



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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2018, 09:51:17 PM »
Are there boundaries or not?
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Offline jetson

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 09:57:33 PM »
I was doing a bit of goggling and reading, with no particular roadmap. I came across this:

https://www.livescience.com/1774-greatest-mysteries-universe.html

Now, I don't know anything about the reliability of the authors/contributors etc. I have just read the article and taken it at face value.

It seems to me that, fundamentally, the question "How did the universe begin?" is answered with "Early in its history, there was a sudden massive expansion...(etc etc )"

But surely that isn't answering the question? Exactly WHAT expanded? Where did it come from? Is there an article of some sort which addresses this?

What you might be missing is the concept that there is no objective answer from science. In this case, and in many other branches of science, the best answer is "we don't know". It is honest, and it encourages continued research. In fact, how do we even know the universe had a beginning? Humans have trouble with concepts of infinity, preferring something more logical - which is how we get explanations centered around a creator. As comforting as that might be to many people, there is simply no evidence whatsoever to support such a thing. Thus we only have the natural universe to look at for answers.

There is the Big Bang Theory along with other related hypotheses. The BBT is the current working theory for the expansion of the known universe. T=0 would be Time=0, and all we have at this point is T + (some fraction) as a possible starting point for the expansion. If there is a T=0, then perhaps time did not exist prior to the BB - as wright's reply shows above.

Offline wright

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2018, 10:03:44 PM »
As Hawking says in the article I linked to, there is no clear boundary, no absolutely defined point at which the universe can be said to have "began". This is because time as we perceive it is needed to do so, and time does not exist independently of the Big Bang.

Here's another analogy:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/10/05/what-existed-before-the-big-bang/#6d2c19367671

Quote
Imagine the sound that the beard of a sheet of whipped cream tinkers three degrees inside Christmas. You can’t? That’s because I used an expression that, though grammatically correct, has absolutely no meaning. The verbs, the nouns, the adjectives, etc., are all in the right place, but the expression still makes no sense. Well… “before the Big Bang” is just like that. A nonsensical expression.

Now you might think that this is unfair, because your intuition tells you that “before the Big Bang” should have meaning… after all, every moment of time has a “before”, and every effect has a cause. But this is the point where I must ask you to discard your intuition in favor of the rigor of mathematics.

The mathematics in this case tells us that cause-and-effect are not universal laws. It is possible to construct hypothetical universes that are perfectly logical, mathematically consistent, yet have effects precede causes or have no causes at all.

Similarly, time, far from being eternal, is just a property of our universe. It is possible to construct hypothetical universes that are logical and self-consistent, with no time at all, or with more than one time. So outside of our universe, time has no meaning.

“Before the Big Bang” would be, by definition, outside of our universe. Where there is no universe, no time, no causes or effects, not even sounds made by sheets of whipped cream five miles before Sunday. The very concept does not exist, so do not try to imagine its properties.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline jetson

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 10:15:02 PM »
Are there boundaries or not?

I know this is directed at wright, but I will say that it is just more practical to assume T=0, and that at some fraction after that, the universe expanded into whatever the void is outside of space (nothing). Let's call it a good working assumption to continue the research into the origin of the universe. Some might call that "the answer", while others continue with their hypotheses.

I read about a pulsing universe, where we see the evidence of the expansion, but not the evidence of the contraction. What if the universe is basically expanding and contracting?

Take a look at some of the writing and papers on quarks. It is possible that something (matter) can come out of nothing, and go back to nothing. Like a coin must have two sides, something and nothing cannot exist without each other. I wish I could live long enough to see where the research goes.

Offline Jag

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 11:12:23 PM »
I wish I could live long enough to see where the research goes.

This.
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2018, 05:24:35 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm struggling with the concept that something can come from nothing. I'm actually struggling even with the concept of 'nothing'.

Mind you, I struggle just as much with trying to comprehend 'eternal God'.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 05:27:23 PM »
This is what I like.  I've linked to it many times. A discussion between physicist Steven Weinberg and Richard Dawkins.  I just love the whole discussion.  Start at 16 minutes for Dr. Wright discussing theories  about the big bang.  (open mind needed, not afraid of eternal damnation, etc........... :)  )



   My theory.  I've gotten to the point, after listening to these discussions, along with Lawrence Krauss theories, that it seems to me every galaxy that we see, thanks to the Hubble, is a universe.  We are just seeing these universes very early.  Each galaxy was born from a big bang.  As they expand, they have galaxies from inside having new big bangs, that will be viewed as galaxies from inside the expansion of the original galaxy, now viewed by "minds" as the universe.  Much of this comes from Laurence Krauss saying, in the distant future, mankind's view will be limited stars, since the universe stars will have moved away.  I disagree - the new "big bangs" keep forming stars and galaxies that "minds" will see.  It all keeps happening over and over and over without a need for a beginning.  We are just part of it, and thanks to evolution, able to think about it. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 05:30:55 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline jetson

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 06:35:43 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm struggling with the concept that something can come from nothing. I'm actually struggling even with the concept of 'nothing'.

Mind you, I struggle just as much with trying to comprehend 'eternal God'.

I struggle too, but I definitely enjoy thinking about the possibilities.

I struggle much more though when people try to tell me there is a god that apparently loves all of the humans - having created them - yet is somehow bound up in:
  • stories of animal sacrifice
  • damning all future humans for the mistake of eating a piece of fruit
  • flooding the earth and killing his own creation
  • smiting characters left and right
  • asking people to kill their children to prove something to him
  • handing down commandments to one man on a mountain top
  • commanding the wholesale slaughter of entire towns of bad people
  • impregnating a young girl with his own son
  • killing people using bears for the crime of name-calling
  • having his very human son sacrificed to once again redeem humanity - his own creation
  • and still keeping us waiting in the whole apocalypse thing that's coming to wipe out all of the non-believers.


Offline velkyn

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2018, 06:43:33 PM »
I was doing a bit of goggling and reading, with no particular roadmap. I came across this:

https://www.livescience.com/1774-greatest-mysteries-universe.html

Now, I don't know anything about the reliability of the authors/contributors etc. I have just read the article and taken it at face value.

It seems to me that, fundamentally, the question "How did the universe begin?" is answered with "Early in its history, there was a sudden massive expansion...(etc etc )"

But surely that isn't answering the question? Exactly WHAT expanded? Where did it come from? Is there an article of some sort which addresses this?

hmmm, it seems we've gone though this with you before, MM, and you still play the ignorant Christian, willfully denying what you've already been told.
   
You have no problem in assuming something came from nothing with your god and its antics.  You want to pretend tha tyour god and only your version of your god always existed, but try to deny anything else could, like, oh, the laws of physics. 

you try to claim that the BB was an "explosion" and it wasn't, not in the way that ignorant Christians try to make it.   
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Offline wright

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 11:50:45 AM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm struggling with the concept that something can come from nothing. I'm actually struggling even with the concept of 'nothing'.

Mind you, I struggle just as much with trying to comprehend 'eternal God'.

Another way to think of it, if I'm grokking[1] the no-boundary theory correctly, is that there has never been "nothing" in the way we commonly use that concept. The universe has always been existence; there has always been "something", even if in a very different state than our current cosmological era.
 1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grokking
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 12:59:02 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm struggling with the concept that something can come from nothing. I'm actually struggling even with the concept of 'nothing'.

Mind you, I struggle just as much with trying to comprehend 'eternal God'.

Another way to think of it, if I'm grokking[1] the no-boundary theory correctly, is that there has never been "nothing" in the way we commonly use that concept. The universe has always been existence; there has always been "something", even if in a very different state than our current cosmological era.
 1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grokking

Side note, but your use of "grokking" just reminded me of how sad the end of Stranger in a Strange Land was.
"It is always darker right before the light.  Or for some people, it just stays dark, but they don't seem to notice."

Offline wright

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2018, 08:03:30 PM »
Side note, but your use of "grokking" just reminded me of how sad the end of Stranger in a Strange Land was.

Further side note: Thanks for the plus, but I don't find the end of "Stranger" a complete tragedy. Yes, he's stoned and murdered by that mob, but his adoptive family and followers are determined and quite able to carry on his work. It's even strongly hinted (IIRC, it's been awhile since I read the book) that he was the incarnation of the Archangel Michael, and we see him briefly in Heaven getting back down to work...
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline DGA

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 01:02:54 PM »
you try to claim that the BB was an "explosion" and it wasn't, not in the way that ignorant Christians try to make it.   

I'm sorry, I hate to defend miles here but plenty of idiotic atheists who believe in the Big Bang state it as an actual energy inducing explosion in the same manner in which miles and other religious people explain the opposition to it. To just place the load on people like miles is ignorant of you.

If you go through my posts, and like you I have a lot, you'll see I rarely talk about science. Why? While I'm into Astronomy, I'm not actually into any other of the sciences. It's not that I don't put any validity in them, it's just they don't really hold my interest. So, I don't talk about them nor pretend I know anything about them[1]. Plenty of atheists talk about things they know nothing about especially when it concerns their beliefs and non-beliefs. It's human nature. I'm sure I've done it sometime in my life, maybe when I found a platform for the first time. Bravado is in most of us. The idea that some of us are just more intelligent than others; especially those we believe have their realities steeped in fairytales.

That's why I've always debated everyone. I'm no better than anyone else so I'm not selective in that thought process. Religious people do not tend to normally question or debate each other. You can see that here. And I also have found many atheists don't like other atheists disagreeing with them, either. Which I find hypocritical of those who believe in science as their grounding force. Science is all about disagreement and finding the truth. When I first learned about the Big Bang, it was explained to me as an actual explosion in the way miles sees it. So, don't put that on miles or "ignorant" Christians. Because there are plenty of ignorant atheists, too.
 1. but if I do, it's probably because I'm steeped in a debate and it comes up so I quickly research parts of it and inject it in the debate
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Offline jetson

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2018, 10:15:42 AM »
you try to claim that the BB was an "explosion" and it wasn't, not in the way that ignorant Christians try to make it.   

I'm sorry, I hate to defend miles here but plenty of idiotic atheists who believe in the Big Bang state it as an actual energy inducing explosion in the same manner in which miles and other religious people explain the opposition to it. To just place the load on people like miles is ignorant of you.

If you go through my posts, and like you I have a lot, you'll see I rarely talk about science. Why? While I'm into Astronomy, I'm not actually into any other of the sciences. It's not that I don't put any validity in them, it's just they don't really hold my interest. So, I don't talk about them nor pretend I know anything about them[1]. Plenty of atheists talk about things they know nothing about especially when it concerns their beliefs and non-beliefs. It's human nature. I'm sure I've done it sometime in my life, maybe when I found a platform for the first time. Bravado is in most of us. The idea that some of us are just more intelligent than others; especially those we believe have their realities steeped in fairytales.

That's why I've always debated everyone. I'm no better than anyone else so I'm not selective in that thought process. Religious people do not tend to normally question or debate each other. You can see that here. And I also have found many atheists don't like other atheists disagreeing with them, either. Which I find hypocritical of those who believe in science as their grounding force. Science is all about disagreement and finding the truth. When I first learned about the Big Bang, it was explained to me as an actual explosion in the way miles sees it. So, don't put that on miles or "ignorant" Christians. Because there are plenty of ignorant atheists, too.
 1. but if I do, it's probably because I'm steeped in a debate and it comes up so I quickly research parts of it and inject it in the debate

If you could show where an "atheist" made some incorrect scientific statement with malice and no concern for accuracy, please do. I'm sure it happens, but there is no reason to defend MM in this case that I can see. At the very least, I would call it ignorance - which is rampant across humanity regardless of ideology or culture. I would never defend religious nonsense with a "both sides do it" type of argument, even when the non-religious side is wrong. There is simply no equivalence at all. One is mythology and supernatural bullshit, while the other is based on observable reality.

Did I misunderstand where you're coming from?

Offline DGA

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2018, 03:55:21 PM »
I can't, Jetson, because it's everyday conversations in varying atheist communities since I've been on the web. I'm not talking about scientists and shit, I' m talking about regular Joe's like me who believe in evolution, maybe the BB (by the way, I'm not a BB proponent and never have been; not that I'm one of those who states it's fiction, or something, just not my angle.) 

One has to take into account where people are learning this information. Whether for it or against it. I've heard atheists calling into the Atheist Experience who had no idea what they were actually talking about and had to be corrected; which most were fine with (some were arrogant.) Just because one is atheist doesn't mean they're not ignorant on some things they're in favor of. I'm ignorant in many science things. I recently thought I knew about the Whirlpool galaxy when I wrote a quiz on it: http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/SciTech/Whirlpool-Its-Not-Just-an-Appliance-381591.html -- it took me over a year to write that quiz; I also realised why no one writes quizzes on galaxies on that website, mine's the only one on a galaxy. Because while we do know a lot about an individual galaxy, in the grand scheme of things: it's minute information. Even the editor who is a professor at some college and the #2 guy who runs that website stated even he wouldn't take on such a challenge on writing a quiz on a galaxy. My ignorance on thinking I was up for such a challenge because I score high in Astronomy and thinking it'd be easy. It was not easy and I learned a lot.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 03:57:18 PM by DGA »
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Offline jetson

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 04:47:46 PM »
I can't, Jetson, because it's everyday conversations in varying atheist communities since I've been on the web. I'm not talking about scientists and s**t, I' m talking about regular Joe's like me who believe in evolution, maybe the BB (by the way, I'm not a BB proponent and never have been; not that I'm one of those who states it's fiction, or something, just not my angle.) 

One has to take into account where people are learning this information. Whether for it or against it. I've heard atheists calling into the Atheist Experience who had no idea what they were actually talking about and had to be corrected; which most were fine with (some were arrogant.) Just because one is atheist doesn't mean they're not ignorant on some things they're in favor of. I'm ignorant in many science things. I recently thought I knew about the Whirlpool galaxy when I wrote a quiz on it: http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/SciTech/Whirlpool-Its-Not-Just-an-Appliance-381591.html -- it took me over a year to write that quiz; I also realised why no one writes quizzes on galaxies on that website, mine's the only one on a galaxy. Because while we do know a lot about an individual galaxy, in the grand scheme of things: it's minute information. Even the editor who is a professor at some college and the #2 guy who runs that website stated even he wouldn't take on such a challenge on writing a quiz on a galaxy. My ignorance on thinking I was up for such a challenge because I score high in Astronomy and thinking it'd be easy. It was not easy and I learned a lot.

I certainly agree with this. And I would add that a humble person always admits when they are ignorant - either before making a claim, or after they learn of their ignorance from someone with more knowledge.

Offline DGA

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Re: What am I missing here?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2018, 05:00:23 PM »
But it also shows my success rate in debating people because I rarely (if ever) go into an argument/debate I know little to nothing about and when I do, I do acknowledge my defeat. Religious people can't ever be wrong about their religion; some atheists, too, and that's my underlining point: defeat is good. It teaches you for next time. But, no one likes to be defeated; I certainly don't which is why I try to stay away from topics I know little to nothing about.
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