Author Topic: Christians suing US for church murders  (Read 396 times)

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Online velkyn

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Christians suing US for church murders
« on: June 08, 2018, 05:42:15 PM »
Quote
A couple whose nine relatives were among the 26 people fatally shot in a Texas church massacre in November has sued the U.S. government for $50 million, saying its "institutional failures" played a part in the murders, court filings on Friday showed.

And, if Christians are correct, it was this god's will that this happened.  It seems that a god who allows murders in a church (and sexual abuse, and embezzlement, etc) is the failure here, if one believes in that nonsense

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-family-sues-us-for-dollar50-million-over-church-massacre/ar-AAypjU6?ocid=ientp

now, I don't know that this couple voted for Trump and supports the NRA, but the probability is high, very high.  There were institutional failures; it's pure hypocrisy for people like this to whine about it now.

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Offline clip11

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 05:43:51 PM »
Quote
A couple whose nine relatives were among the 26 people fatally shot in a Texas church massacre in November has sued the U.S. government for $50 million, saying its "institutional failures" played a part in the murders, court filings on Friday showed.

And, if Christians are correct, it was this god's will that this happened.  It seems that a god who allows murders in a church (and sexual abuse, and embezzlement, etc) is the failure here, if one believes in that nonsense

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-family-sues-us-for-dollar50-million-over-church-massacre/ar-AAypjU6?ocid=ientp

now, I don't know that this couple voted for Trump and supports the NRA, but the probability is high, very high.

And if it was gods will then the shooter and the U.S. government were just agent's used to fulfill his will.

Offline Jag

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 06:58:10 PM »
Hey! Watch it, you blasphemers! You're edging right up to accountability, and we'll be having none of that!

Credit for the good, blame the Devil/sin/Eve for the bad - get with the program!

 &)
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Offline Nick

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2018, 11:29:16 AM »
OK, I can see why this might be God's fault but how is it the US Gov fault? 
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Jag

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 11:39:25 AM »
OK, I can see why this might be God's fault but how is it the US Gov fault?

Someone needs to bring a counter-suit against God.

The Satanic Temple seems the most likely candidate.  ;D
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Online velkyn

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2018, 07:17:37 PM »
^ heh.  ;D

It's always curious that the Christians who participate here never response to this type of post.  I suppose it is their allergy to reality.
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2018, 07:24:56 PM »
I really don't know what point you're trying to make. If the allegations are correct, it rather seems to me the Air Force have something to answer to. Although I don't know how any amount of money is supposed to help these grieving parents. In Australia, damages are only awarded for things such as loss of earnings etc.

Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2018, 07:31:31 PM »


now, I don't know that this couple voted for Trump and supports the NRA, but the probability is high, very high. 

What, because they live in Texas? Hey Jetson, you're probably a gun-toting, trump supporting red-neck!!

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2018, 08:49:32 PM »
This kinda shit gives me a headache.

If they win this case, does that mean god doesn't have power over the government?

If they win it then god wanted them to have the money.

If they lose it then god's plan worked.

OK, gotta stop thinking about this.


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Offline Jag

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2018, 08:57:07 PM »
now, I don't know that this couple voted for Trump and supports the NRA, but the probability is high, very high. 

What, because they live in Texas? Hey Jetson, you're probably a gun-toting, trump supporting red-neck!!

Truth? It's what leads up to it:

"A couple whose nine relatives** were among the 26 people fatally shot in a Texas church massacre..."

Is the assumption that they are NRA supporting Trump voters inaccurate? Maybe. But given the few additional details provided, and living in the US, it absolutely isn't an outrageous guess to make.

For what it's worth, I would be equally open to the idea that they are genuinely trying to FORCE the government to take some sort of action.

Dunno, but the church is Baptist, and doesn't appear to be very large, so stereotype or not, the odds are not small that velkyn has it right.


To the rest of the forum -
Can someone refresh my memory? Is this the shooter with the vendetta? He had a grudge or disagreement of some sort with one person, and he retaliated by shooting up the church they and their family attended? Or am I mixing up church shootings?

Completely disgusted that this is becoming so common that I'm having trouble keeping them straight.

**one was their child, the rest are simply identified as relatives.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2018, 09:19:41 PM »


now, I don't know that this couple voted for Trump and supports the NRA, but the probability is high, very high. 

What, because they live in Texas? Hey Jetson, you're probably a gun-toting, trump supporting red-neck!!

Not me, but I am surrounded by them!

After Trump was elected, I was fairly surprised at the number of women that were OK voting for him. I was not that surprised at the number of white, middle-aged male coworkers who did the same, and who spend plenty of time at work talking about their guns. Most are not what I would call gun nuts, but they certainly don't want to hear any talk of gun laws, or registries, or anything that would impede their god-given right to defend themselves against...themselves? I don't really know who they are afraid of...like, who's gonna shoot at them? It would have to be another gun owner.

Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2018, 10:27:52 PM »
Now that I think about it, Velkyn's thread title make an assumption, that the family are Christians. They might be, they might not be. Your extended family being church attenders doesn't always mean a lot, as surely many of you can attest.

Offline Jag

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »
It's plausible, but you're still not understanding the reality: simply by virtue of the ratio of theists to non-theists in the US, it may be an assumption, but odds are very high that it is not a mistaken assumption. So high in fact, that it makes little sense to attempt that line of argument.

If this is the specific shooting that I'm thinking it is, the people bringing suit are members of the same church - they just happened to not be present that morning.
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Online velkyn

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2018, 12:18:19 PM »
Now that I think about it, Velkyn's thread title make an assumption, that the family are Christians. They might be, they might not be. Your extended family being church attenders doesn't always mean a lot, as surely many of you can attest.

and MM's desperation shows up again.    &)

I really don't know what point you're trying to make. If the allegations are correct, it rather seems to me the Air Force have something to answer to. Although I don't know how any amount of money is supposed to help these grieving parents. In Australia, damages are only awarded for things such as loss of earnings etc.

so, MM, is everything per your god's will?   

As I indicated, yep, there were mistakes by the AF, etc.   However, if, as most Christians claims, everything that happens is their god's will, then these murders are your god's will.  IF this god wanted/needed this to happen, the only entity responsible is your god.

Get it now? I suspect you got it before but can't bring yourself to think through the ramifications of your religious nonsense. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 12:22:29 PM by velkyn »
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 12:57:25 AM »
Now that I think about it, Velkyn's thread title make an assumption, that the family are Christians. They might be, they might not be. Your extended family being church attenders doesn't always mean a lot, as surely many of you can attest.

and MM's desperation shows up again.    &)

What? For pointing out an assumption? OK... &)


so, MM, is everything per your god's will?   


I believe God can prevent anything from occurring, and He chooses not to prevent some terrible things from occurring. That does not mean He WANTS those things to happen.



IF this god wanted/needed this to happen, the only entity responsible is your god.


God isn't responsible in the way you like to claim; that is, he can't be 'blamed'. He is not at fault, and has done no wrong.

If you want to argue He was responsible, you also need to argue...well, this will just bring us back to the line of discussion in the "born blind' thread, which I think has run its course in terms of expressing opinions.

Online velkyn

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2018, 11:11:07 AM »
What? For pointing out an assumption? OK... &)

funny how they aren't assumptions at all, MM.  To create the story you wanted, you needed to make assumptions yourself, and you ignore any evidence to the contrary that it is silly to make the assumptions you need. 


so, MM, is everything per your god's will?   

Quote
I believe God can prevent anything from occurring, and He chooses not to prevent some terrible things from occurring. That does not mean He WANTS those things to happen.

What BS.   IF your god allows something to happen, and it is omnipotent, then it wants those things to happen.  If it didn't want them to happen, they wouldn't.   Your god wants murder, rape, starvation, genocide, etc etc to happen if they happen.  They would not occur otherwise.  But please, MM, tell us how it would work for an omnipotent being not wanting something to happen but allowing it to happen anyway. 

IF this god wanted/needed this to happen, the only entity responsible is your god.


Quote
God isn't responsible in the way you like to claim; that is, he can't be 'blamed'. He is not at fault, and has done no wrong.

If you want to argue He was responsible, you also need to argue...well, this will just bring us back to the line of discussion in the "born blind' thread, which I think has run its course in terms of expressing opinions.

Yes, this god is responsible in the way I have indicated.  If this god does nothing, and it could do something, y'know, by being omnipotent, then it has done wrong.   If I could save someone with no effort on my part, and I chose not to, am I to blame?  If I chose to create the circumstances of a harmful act, am I not to blame?   

And no surprise that you can't tell me what I need to argue.   You have nothing more than your pathetic might equals right argument, a lovely example of subjective morality that Christians have no problem with. 
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 04:21:06 PM »
Velkyn, any parent can understand the concept of teaching your kids what will and won't cause them sadness, pain and suffering. But any parent will also tell you they can't lock their kids up behind four safe walls 24/7.

You understand the concept of love incorporating freedom, but it sticks in your throat when it comes to God because of the magnitude of the suffering involved. That's understandable, it sticks in my throat sometimes also.

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 05:40:57 PM »
Velkyn, any parent can understand the concept of teaching your kids what will and won't cause them sadness, pain and suffering. But any parent will also tell you they can't lock their kids up behind four safe walls 24/7.

You understand the concept of love incorporating freedom, but it sticks in your throat when it comes to God because of the magnitude of the suffering involved. That's understandable, it sticks in my throat sometimes also.

Parents are not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings. God is not a parent.
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 05:52:21 PM »



Parents are not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings.


No, they aren't, nor did I claim them to be. But every parent knows their children will have the freedom to make bad decisions, and that their children will suffer due to those bad decisions, and due to bad decisions of others. We choose to bring children into the world knowing all this, out of a desire to love them and to be loved by them.

God is not a parent.

Yes He is.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 05:56:22 PM by magicmiles 2.0 »

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 06:39:56 PM »
Parents are not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings.
No, they aren't, nor did I claim them to be.

Yes you did, when you equated their flawed parenting with your god's supposed "hands off" policy (in stark contrast to his portrayal in your religious book, I might add). Either you were saying that human parents are on the same level as your perfect god, or that your god is on the same level as flawed human parents. One of the two must be true for this not to be a false equivalency.

But every parent knows their children will have the freedom to make bad decisions, and that their children will suffer due to those bad decisions, and due to bad decisions of others. We choose to bring children into the world knowing all this, out of a desire to love them and to be loved by them.

And if parents could stop their children from making bad decisions and suffering, they would. However, parents, being flawed humans, know that they can't, and so they just try to prepare their children to deal with the results of their bad decisions. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god, however, could. The two are not interchangeable nor equivalent.

God is not a parent.
Yes He is.

Then he is flawed, like all parents.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:41:42 PM by One Above All »
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 06:55:17 PM »
Parents are not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings.
No, they aren't, nor did I claim them to be.

Yes you did, when you equated their flawed parenting with your god's supposed "hands off" policy (in stark contrast to his portrayal in your religious book, I might add). Either you were saying that human parents are on the same level as your perfect god, or that your god is on the same level as flawed human parents. One of the two must be true for this not to be a false equivalency.

Giving an example of something in order to try and provide an alternate perspective does not necessitate providing a perfect analogy.

Parents COULD prevent their children from making bad decisions and suffering. But to so would in itself be a bad decision on the part of the parent.


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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 07:01:48 PM »
Giving an example of something in order to try and provide an alternate perspective does not necessitate providing a perfect analogy.

Parents COULD prevent their children from making bad decisions and suffering. But to so would in itself be a bad decision on the part of the parent.

No, they couldn't, because parents are human, and thus inherently flawed. Parents cannot and do not perfectly control any aspect of the universe, least of all their children. Your god has no such limitations, and could very easily stop all bad decisions and suffering without any negative repercussions, if it so chose.

Parent analogies do not work, because parenting is an impossible job performed by flawed beings. Humans don't try to stop their children from making bad decisions and suffering because they know they will fail. It has nothing to do with whether they can or can't do it; they know they would fail if they tried, so they do the next best thing. Gods have no such limitations.
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 07:13:58 PM »
Your god has no such limitations, and could very easily stop all bad decisions and suffering without any negative repercussions, if it so chose.


And you know this with your superior intellect. You sit in judgement of God and say "You could have done it better"

The problem in a nutshell, right there. People assume they know better than God out of the most mind boggling egotism imaginable.

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 07:15:59 PM »
Your god has no such limitations, and could very easily stop all bad decisions and suffering without any negative repercussions, if it so chose.


And you know this with your superior intellect. You sit in judgement of God and say "You could have done it better"

The problem in a nutshell, right there. People assume they know better than God out of the most mind boggling egotism imaginable.

So you're saying the best an omnipotent and omniscient being can do is also the best a fallible, limited, ignorant, and inherently flawed human can do?
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Online velkyn

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Re: Christians suing US for church murders
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2018, 10:52:31 AM »
Velkyn, any parent can understand the concept of teaching your kids what will and won't cause them sadness, pain and suffering. But any parent will also tell you they can't lock their kids up behind four safe walls 24/7.

You understand the concept of love incorporating freedom, but it sticks in your throat when it comes to God because of the magnitude of the suffering involved. That's understandable, it sticks in my throat sometimes also.

again, nice invented stories, MM but your bible does not support them.  You've invented your own god and own religion.  To compare this god of yours, that murders children for the actiosn of their parents, to a parent is quite a fail.  This god has nothing to do with freedom; if it did then it would not have mind controled the egyptian people and the pharaoh nor make it that people are damned because this god just feels like it, through no fault of their own. 

I don't make up excuses for why suffering is needed by my god, MM.  You do, so I don't buy the 'sticks in my throat' nonsense from you. 

Now, consider this.  If you want to claim that your god is a parent, then this parent failed hugely when it made adam and eve ignorant, and then, out of stupidity or malice, allowed the second most powerful entity in the universe into their playpen to mess with them.

and it's no surprise at all that you ignored my questions.  Good for you, MM! 

as for this:
And you know this with your superior intellect. You sit in judgement of God and say "You could have done it better"

The problem in a nutshell, right there. People assume they know better than God out of the most mind boggling egotism imaginable.

and here we go back to MM's favorite "might equals right" and "how dare you judge me my god!"   There is nothing that shows that MM's version of this god can't or shouldn't be judged.   Yep, MM, I could have done it better.  I, as an omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent god, would not have needed to murder people, I would not have needed to make many failed covenants until it dawned on me that what I really needed was a blood sacrifice of myself to myself to correct the rules that I made.  I would not have murdered a child for the actions of its parents.   
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 10:59:19 AM by velkyn »
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