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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« on: May 12, 2018, 01:17:33 AM »
Some people say that the Bible is outdated and not really useful.  I disagree and I have come here with a challenge to prove it.

As I related in another thread, Christ didn't come teaching long lists of rights and wrongs.  In other words, he didn't provide us a list of laws like Moses.  A list of right and wrongs could actually change through time, culture, and circumstances.  They could become "outdated".  This is the case with many of the law of Moses.

But that is not what Christ taught.  He taught timeless principles.  He taught things that you can apply not matter your age, race, nationality, sex, etc., etc.  He didn't provide a black and white list of rights and wrongs.  I think some people want this but that's not what Christ provided.  The Mosaic law did that.  Much of it is obsolete.  And as we can see, many things are obsolete.  That's because it only applied to a particular people at a particular time.  Many  things have become obsolete.  It can just no longer be applied.  That's the problem with laws.  They are here today and gone tomorrow.  They change with the times.  But principles are timeless.  Allow me to demonstrate.

The claim is that the Bible is outdated.  So the challenge is this.  Name any modern situation and I will supply applicable Bible principles that will direct you toward a good decision.

   
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Emergence

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2018, 05:16:18 AM »
Ok, I'll bite.

Here's a scenario that I luckily did not experience first hand (and hopefully never will) but that I know happened to colleagues due to their field of research[1]:

Biomedical research at an independent[2] institution. The topic is medical intervention of a certain health condition. Along the way, some very promising results suggest a potential cure for that condition. But soon the team realizes that the method can also be put to offensive military use[3]. The basic question is: To publish or not to publish?[4]
As people working in research will realize: Your's is never the only team working on a certain topic. Sometimes you know how close the 'competitors' are sometimes you don't. Sometimes they are very close, sometimes they are somewhat further behind. But there are always 'competitors'. Also you can never be sure that everyone else realizes the inherent dangers to a certain approach. Chances are, they don't, as you often initially won't, partially because "salami slicing" publishing techniques obscure the big picture, partially because the "publish or perish" atmosphere in science leads to a certain "hit and run" mentality in labs, where you do not keep up with a topic for long enough to really consider all aspects of an issue and quickly jump on the next big topic (I know, there are many and notable exceptions, but still there seems to be a trend...).

So there's some options that have to be weighted against each other:

1. Simply publish for the potential health benefits and don't worry about the aftereffects.
2. Inform federal agencies of the potential danger and coordinate publication with them. Thus risking to wake sleeping dogs on the military potential of your findings.
3. Publish and fully disclose the risks so that the global scientific community is aware of this, in the hope of preventing any one from getting a military advantage.
4.  Don't publish and try to cover up the findings with the risk that some other group will publish the same stuff in due time (with or without popper risk assessment).
5. Try to get a grant for the military research in order to "control" what is going on there and publish the health related parts of the study.
6. Try to initiate an international collaboration, in order to raise awareness of the dangerous issue.
7. Other

So what does the Bibel advice?

 1. there are probably many examples of similar situations in research out there
 2. non-profit, not corporately funded
 3. as in: "very dangerous as weapon"
 4. In a Hollywood movie this would be simple: Good guys want to keep it secret. People being people, information leaks out. Bad guys try to steal the "formula" for 90 min. In the end good guys destroy the "formula" along with all documentation. World saved.

But in real life things are a bit different.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2018, 07:48:26 AM »
Some people say that the Bible is outdated and not really useful.  I disagree and I have come here with a challenge to prove it.

As I related in another thread, Christ didn't come teaching long lists of rights and wrongs.  In other words, he didn't provide us a list of laws like Moses.  A list of right and wrongs could actually change through time, culture, and circumstances.  They could become "outdated".  This is the case with many of the law of Moses.

But that is not what Christ taught.  He taught timeless principles.  He taught things that you can apply not matter your age, race, nationality, sex, etc., etc.  He didn't provide a black and white list of rights and wrongs.  I think some people want this but that's not what Christ provided.  The Mosaic law did that.  Much of it is obsolete.  And as we can see, many things are obsolete.  That's because it only applied to a particular people at a particular time.  Many  things have become obsolete.  It can just no longer be applied.  That's the problem with laws.  They are here today and gone tomorrow.  They change with the times.  But principles are timeless.  Allow me to demonstrate.

The claim is that the Bible is outdated.  So the challenge is this.  Name any modern situation and I will supply applicable Bible principles that will direct you toward a good decision.

Bold, mine.

This is the fatal flaw, jst. There is little to no doubt that many Christians can open their Bible and find a passage that works for some need. In fact, I would argue that you just brilliantly and succinctly articulated the most fundamental flaw in Christianity, as seen by non-religious people. This idea of "applicable Bible principles" is the foundational flaw that is responsible for things like this list of sects. Click that link and take a good look at what "Christianity" has become around the world.

Now, that by itself must mean something to you, correct? You must have given some level of thought to how this may have happened, yes? And if you drill down into these sects of Christianity, for the most part they have components that seem to agree, Jesus, God, salvation, and perhaps a few more. Some even argue that the distinctions don't matter as long as you accept Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior (that's a really popular view among American Evangelicals.) I would like to hear your thoughts on how or why it would be possible for this to happen with a religion that is supposed to be based on one man's teachings? How did it get so splintered?

I am not an academic scholar with intimate knowledge of this phenomenon, but does it really require a lot of intelligence and deep investigation to figure out a thing that we see happen every day in our lives across social media and in person? Even people within the same sect cannot fully agree on everything - heck, look at the Catholics! They have a world leader who makes all sorts of proclamations about its doctrine that goes ignored by American Catholics to a noticeable degree. Again, it's just not rocket science. And it is easy to see that "Bible principles" are indeed at the heart of the problem.

It is extremely frustrating for atheists to be told that they are "cherry-picking" scripture, from people who cherry-pick from the Bible. It happens often, I've seen you do it. But here's the rub: what makes you an authority on scripture? Why should anyone believe an interpretation from a Jehovah Witness, a sect of Christianity that came about less than 150 years ago? Why does that sect get to tell anyone what scripture really means? Wouldn't it be much smarter to get my scripture interpretations from the oldest sect? Wouldn't they naturally hold more authority since they are the ones that put the New Testament together in the first place? I don't mean to attack JW doctrine, but it's a lot like asking a toddler to teach me how to put a car engine together, when that toddler has an older sibling who puts engines together for a living. But, let me insert a new twist...all sects are wrong.

We beat this up in another thread, but I will revisit the idea:
  • There are hundreds of sects of Christianity that do not agree with each other
  • They cannot all be correct in their scripture interpretations
  • So, none of them are correct

Now, at the risk of creating a side argument, I will grant that among these sects, there are certainly agreed upon interpretations for various books, passages, and phrases. But there is a difference between "agreed upon" and "correct". This is the practical element at odds with any particular sect claiming some truth about scripture. We could be at a point where no sect has it correct, but enough sects agree on something that is now inherited as true. If we could somehow bring the original writer into the discussion, and that writer set everyone straight, that would be progress (although, I suspect that even in that case, some would still argue in favor of their own interpretation.) If we had a major dispute over the meaning of some passage in the Harry Potter books, all we need to do is get the author to tell us the actual meaning! But in 2,000 years, when the author is long dead, the arguments over meaning within the book will live on. Human nature, I suppose.

I know this is not what you wanted from this thread, but I have no doubt that you can do what you claim to be able to do in the OP. No matter what situation is presented to you, you will have a biblical principle that you can apply. And while that satisfies you from your religious perspective, it would not likely satisfy anyone outside of your sect or outside of Christianity itself. Humans simply do not operate on a set of objective principles from any particular source. If you had been born in the Middle-East, you might be defending the principles form the Koran right now. Children in highly religious cultures rarely get to choose their religion. The closest source we have are likely from our own evolution as a species, and that continues to evolve over time. Our own evolving nature, and our inherent empathy towards each other, and our propensity for survival (like all species) are what drive us and unite us.

By the way, I do not argue that there is nothing good in the Bible. But I would never condone using it as a life guide in modern times. I'm sure that those medical journals from the 1700's had some elements that are still relevant today. But we don't hand them out to medical students.

Offline Nick

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2018, 09:19:39 AM »
Stem cell research?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2018, 09:58:52 AM »
It would be nice if you addressed the challenges to your claims that are already posted, before going off to claim that you can do so in a new thread.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2018, 10:42:55 AM »
The claim is that the Bible is outdated.  So the challenge is this.  Name any modern situation and I will supply applicable Bible principles that will direct you toward a good decision.

That's silly. Any Xian can validate a moral claim with verses from the bible. That's a big problem actually, as opposing moral claims are supported (including whether or not the Laws of Moses are defunct). My challenge to you is offer us a moral certainty that requires a god to invent and deliver it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 01:00:21 PM »
Should I continue my higher education?
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Offline Emergence

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 01:14:53 PM »
For the record: I pretty much agree with Jag, jetson and albeto. But I'm here for the entertainment value, therefore I decided to play along.

But I have to say, junebugs question is much more interesting for a couple of reasons, than the scenario that I outlined. Therefore, jst, if you decide to demonstrate the power of biblical advice, I'd appreciate if you started with this:

Should I continue my higher education?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 04:14:43 PM »
Should I continue my higher education?

Remember I said the Bible doesn't always provide black and white answers.  At the end of the day whether or not a pursue more education is a personal decision.

Here are some things to keep in mind when making your decision:

1.  "Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need." (Eph 4:28)

Sometimes higher education may be necessary to provide for yourself and/or your family. 

2.  "But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that." (1 Timothy 6:8)

Don't allow yourself to be swept away with a materialistic spirit.  Providing for yourself, and helping others are good things.  Spending your life in the pursuit of more and more money is unnecessary and often harmful.  "The love of money is the root of all sorts of injurious things".

3.  "So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons, 16 making the best use of your time,* because the days are wicked." (Eph 5:15)

Is pursuing more education the "best use of your time"?  How will it affect other areas of your life?  We should not pursue anything, including higher education, if it causes us to neglect more important matters. 

4.  "There is more happiness in giving that there is in receiving"

Are you pursuing education so that you have something to give or because you want to receive?

5.  "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30saying, 'This person began to build and wasn't able to finish."

Financial cost is another consideration.  Some people end up in debt for a very long time.  Is the cost truly worth worth it?

6.  "Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom."

Higher education can be a significant investment of time.  Is the investment in time worth it?

7.  "Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it."

If we are talking about a child especially then another consideration is the potential effects on their physical, spiritual, and emotional welfare.  Some parents send their children off to college only to have them not return.  Children may be exposed to an inordinate about of temptations and/or bad situations.  Drug and alcohol abuse can often be part of the culture.  So can sexual immorality.  Of course we hope our children are equipped to resist bad influence and make right decisions but this is certainly not something that should go without consideration.   
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jag

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 05:42:18 PM »
Should I continue my higher education?

Remember I said the Bible doesn't always provide black and white answers.

Just dig around for a passage that supports what you want to do anyway. There's bound to be several that you can personally interpret whichever way you wish to choose.  :o
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2018, 09:47:37 AM »
JST, I double checked the OP, AND YOU DID NOT SAY THE ANSWER WOULD Be mysterious.

I am not a child. I am 46 yo. I am going for the money, and to help others.

Jesus turned the water into wine, and the bible calls for sober elders. It has no commandment for youth to be sober. Even Noah was a drunk. Talk about forcing your will on others, your religion does just that in regards to higher education, sex, and drinking alcohol. There's also Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and DRINK, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is a gift of God.

I did some digging of my own and found these scriptures:

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

This scripture seems to be against conforming to the world.


Colossians 2:8 ESV
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

In my disability class I learned how belief in gods was used to oppress people with disabilities.

In my Psychology class the first chapter tells us that dualism lost the fight to nature and nuture; the biopsychosocial model. The curriculum is based on The Theory of Evolution.

The semester after next I will take philosophy.

All my classes teach critical thinking skills--> 1. What am I being asked to believe? 2. What is the evidence to support it? 3. What is the most valid conclusion given the evidence?

Ecclesiastes 12:10-The preacher sought out to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11. The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given by one shephard.
12 And further, by these, my son be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Those verses seem to steer you away from knowledge. In fact the whole book of Ecclesiastes seems to say we all die and everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit. Nothing really matters, so eat, drink, and be merry. Wait, the buybull is a book, lol. It is full of words, Jesus says words are like a double edged sword, and uses words to say that. Anyhow back to the buybull...

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

God never answered.

Isaiah 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children.

Too bad you cannot hear him. I wonder if he is familiar with TOE?

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

How much does he pay?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Okie dokie.

I think that when the buybull talks about wisdom and knowledge it is not talking about the knowledge of man but of God.

Why should I seek out knowledge from something I cannot see, hear, smell, touch, or taste? The buybull disgusts me with its tales of genocide, incest, and blood sacrifices.

I would not seek the answer to: when should I cut my toenails from that barbaric ancient mythological work of fiction.

I have to say, that my question is not answered by the bible.








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Offline Jag

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2018, 10:34:08 AM »
The results will be as clear as those of a magic 8 ball.

You could use a really big hard bound dictionary, set it on the table, close your eyes and let it fall open. Whatever definition your eyes land on first, that word is a secret message to you, personally, from Athena.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 12:33:24 PM »
Some people say that the Bible is outdated and not really useful.  I disagree and I have come here with a challenge to prove it.

As I related in another thread, Christ didn't come teaching long lists of rights and wrongs.  In other words, he didn't provide us a list of laws like Moses.  A list of right and wrongs could actually change through time, culture, and circumstances.  They could become "outdated".  This is the case with many of the law of Moses.

But that is not what Christ taught.  He taught timeless principles.  He taught things that you can apply not matter your age, race, nationality, sex, etc., etc.  He didn't provide a black and white list of rights and wrongs.  I think some people want this but that's not what Christ provided.  The Mosaic law did that.  Much of it is obsolete.  And as we can see, many things are obsolete.  That's because it only applied to a particular people at a particular time.  Many  things have become obsolete.  It can just no longer be applied.  That's the problem with laws.  They are here today and gone tomorrow.  They change with the times.  But principles are timeless.  Allow me to demonstrate.

The claim is that the Bible is outdated.  So the challenge is this.  Name any modern situation and I will supply applicable Bible principles that will direct you toward a good decision.

and jst will ignore all of the rest of the bible that will have you make a very bad decision.  It's great to see someone like jst make such claims, as if we don't know what the bible says.  He wants to claim that the bits he doesn't like are "outdated" and the parts he likes are "timeless". 

funny how JC and his dad did give a list of black and white list of rights and wrongs.   JC said he did, and 1 John 2 also agrees. 

I get answers from tarot cards.  Funny how that works just like the bible. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:35:31 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 04:20:44 PM »
I have to say, that my question is not answered by the bible.

The Bible will not make your decision for you.  But it can help you make the wise choice that fits you.  Individual cases vary.

Quote
Talk about forcing your will on others, your religion does just that in regards to higher education, sex, and drinking alcohol.

Nice unsupported accusations.  And I'm they are about to end a number of my conversations.  What I just provided you was taken from Witnesses beliefs.  Where did I force my will?

You are the one that believes in forcing your will on others.  Not us.

Quote
There's also Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and DRINK, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is a gift of God.

The Bible does not fobid drinking alcohol.  It forbids drunkeness.  What Noah did doesn't change the fact that it's forbidden.  All of God's servants can be seen doing sinful things, except one.  And he's the one we're told to imitate.  Not Noah.

Quote
This scripture seems to be against conforming to the world.

Yes.  For example, pursuing higher education just so you can be wealthy and powerful is being conformed to the world.

Quote
In my disability class I learned how belief in gods was used to oppress people with disabilities.

So what does that have to do with me?

Quote
Those verses seem to steer you away from knowledge. In fact the whole book of Ecclesiastes seems to say we all die and everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Would it help if you knew that Ecclesiastes was written at a time when Solomon had fell out of Jehovah's favor and was lamenting the only things left, worldly pursuits.  Contrast that with his teachings in Proverbs.  Knowledge and wisdom are to be prized very highly.  Even Ecc acknowledges the benefits of wisdom.  "For wisdom is protection as money is protection, and the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the life of its owner."  (Ecc 7:12)

Quote
God never answered.

Then keep on asking.

Quote
Too bad you cannot hear him. I wonder if he is familiar with TOE?

I don't need to hear him. 

I doubt he spends his time examining simple human theories.

Quote
How much does he pay?

The payment is everlasting life filled with "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control." 

Quote
I think that when the buybull talks about wisdom and knowledge it is not talking about the knowledge of man but of God.

Sometimes. The knowledge of God is opposed to the philosophies of men.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 04:38:21 PM »
I hope you can help me JST. I live close to the city gates and have a rebellious and stubborn son. He just won't listen to me or his mother. Not only that, he's also a glutton and a drunkard. Is there some Biblical passage that can tell me what to do with him?
Thanks in advance.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 09:01:08 PM »
The Bible will not make your decision for you.  But it can help you make the wise choice that fits you.  Individual cases vary.

This is particularly interesting in light of velkyn's previous comment:

I get answers from tarot cards.  Funny how that works just like the bible.

I've had a tarot reading just once and I have to admit that while I was feeling very stubborn about the whole thing, it was hard not to find things that resonated. Whatever resonated got me to think about certain things that were on my mind at the time and I have to say, I can see how it would be helpful to direct one's thoughts for processing whatever they are working out. Granted, the information was so general that it was impossible for *something* to not apply, but I'm curious how Jst or MM or BS would argue the bible is more appropriate every time for every person.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 02:07:31 AM »

The claim is that the Bible is outdated.  So the challenge is this.  Name any modern situation and I will supply applicable Bible principles that will direct you toward a good decision.
   

The fallacy in what you are attempting to do here, is that you can always apply any principles from any document, no matter how bad, and then claim that your solution is correct and relevant. The only way to prove that the Bible is relevant is when it comes to the same conclusions that secular people do. Those secular people have also been heavily brainwashed by extant tight arsed religions.


- I get a genetic analysis of my growing fetus, and it says they have a hideous dwarfism with cancer by the age of 10. Do I terminate?

- Should I attempt to create a race of superhumans through an extended breeding program?
- Should I leave my child out in the cold, when there are clear signs that getting rid of weak children reduces suffering?

- Do I give my money away to do the good in the world that Jesus demands, or do I become a billionaire and wait until the end of my life to help third world people with fistulas.

- Do I deny my child medication, or wait for God to heal her, when there are clear signs that she is demonically possessed with irregular menstruation? Should I consult God first, because he knows what is really wrong with her, and the doctors are all corrupt.

- Should I tell my congregation to all go away and pray in secret? Never come back again, because Christ despises the church.

- Should we leave homosexuals and bisexuals alone, when there are clear signs that they will get out of control and ruin everything?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 02:11:26 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 08:13:47 AM »
Quote from: JST

The Bible will not make your decision for you.  But it can help you make the wise choice that fits you.  Individual cases vary. 


Like for the person that wishes to do harm to a homosexual need look no farther than the buybull to condone murdering him/her.

For the nation that wishes to take land from another people need look no farther than the buybull.

For the parents that beat their children need look no further than the buybull.

I do not know why theists cannot just admit that there is some awful despicable acts in the bible.

As far as keep asking...if 20 years is not enough...

The Bible promises comfort from God. 
If you wanna make the world a better place,
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change...
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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 09:45:44 AM »

Quote
How much does he pay?

The payment is everlasting life filled with "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control." 

Your statement reminders me of the old adage; If something sounds too good to be true, then.....


Mankind is not likely to salvage civilization unless he can evolve a system of good and evil which is independent of heaven and hell.

George Orwell




When you believe in things you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way

Offline Jag

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 10:19:23 AM »

Quote
How much does he pay?

The payment is everlasting life filled with "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control." 

Your statement reminders me of the old adage; If something sounds too good to be true, then.....

I totally get your point, but does this REALLY sound like a great way to spend eternity? Everlasting life where nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, ever happens?

You just sit around loving at each other for ETERNITY.

YEE-UCK!
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline velkyn

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 10:38:24 AM »

Then keep on asking.


Sometimes. The knowledge of God is opposed to the philosophies of men.

the same stupid excuses that Christians give.   It's always the fault of the asker when this god doesn't ever bother to answer.  oh golly, we didn't ask "correctly".  Sorry, jst, your false claims fail again. 

and the whole god is mysterious BS. 

we know from your actions that believing in nonsense doesn't lead to honestly, goodness, kindness, etc.  It leads to repeated attempts to deceive others.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Jag

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 10:47:06 AM »
Then keep on asking.

Absolutely. Spot on. If you do it enough, your subconscious will step in and provide what your are seeking.

And just like that, a True Believer is born. Their own brain gave them a god as a means of satisfying the endless quest it kept being sent on.

 8)
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 11:16:34 AM »

Quote
How much does he pay?

The payment is everlasting life filled with "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control." 

Your statement reminders me of the old adage; If something sounds too good to be true, then.....

I totally get your point, but does this REALLY sound like a great way to spend eternity? Everlasting life where nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, ever happens?

You just sit around loving at each other for ETERNITY.

YEE-UCK!

Yup, how gullible do you have to be?
Mankind is not likely to salvage civilization unless he can evolve a system of good and evil which is independent of heaven and hell.

George Orwell




When you believe in things you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 11:19:39 AM »
Then keep on asking.

Absolutely. Spot on. If you do it enough, your subconscious will step in and provide what your are seeking.

And just like that, a True Believer is born. Their own brain gave them a god as a means of satisfying the endless quest it kept being sent on.

 8)

Tell yourself something enough times and it becomes the truth.


We just covered gullibleness and brainwashing, the main ingredients for religion to succeed.
Mankind is not likely to salvage civilization unless he can evolve a system of good and evil which is independent of heaven and hell.

George Orwell




When you believe in things you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 01:08:18 PM »
The only way to prove that the Bible is relevant is when it comes to the same conclusions that secular people do.

That's not actually what has occured.  2000 years later secular people are coming to the same conclusions as the Bible.  Although I've yet to see secularists address lust and greed.

Quote
- I get a genetic analysis of my growing fetus, and it says they have a hideous dwarfism with cancer by the age of 10. Do I terminate?

Why ask me?  You don't believe it unless a secularist says it.  So what do secularists say?  What does research reveal?  Should you?

Quote
- Should I attempt to create a race of superhumans through an extended breeding program?

What do secularists say?  What does the research reveal?  Should a superhuman race be created?  Why or why not?   

Quote
- Should I leave my child out in the cold, when there are clear signs that getting rid of weak children reduces suffering?

What do secularists say?  What does the research reveal?  Should you?

Quote
- Do I give my money away to do the good in the world that Jesus demands, or do I become a billionaire and wait until the end of my life to help third world people with fistulas.

What do secularists say?  What does the research reveal?  What should you do?

Quote
- Do I deny my child medication, or wait for God to heal her, when there are clear signs that she is demonically possessed with irregular menstruation? Should I consult God first, because he knows what is really wrong with her, and the doctors are all corrupt.

- Should I tell my congregation to all go away and pray in secret? Never come back again, because Christ despises the church.

- Should we leave homosexuals and bisexuals alone, when there are clear signs that they will get out of control and ruin everything?

What do secularists say?  What does the research reveal?  What should you do?

I don't see how secularism offers any guidance in these areas at all.  I guess you'll be waiting on the research before you can provide answers.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline junebug72

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 02:43:18 PM »
JST, ^^^^^ that up there is a cop out my friend. You said you can answer any question with the bible.

That comes across as angry and spiteful.
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Take a look at yourself, and then make a change...
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 02:51:32 PM »
that is such a pathetically false claim when jst claims that non-religious people are coming to the same conclusions that the bible has.  Nope, we haven't.  The bible is full of ignorance and bigotry, insisting that some people are "chosen", that some people should be killed, that knowledge is anathema to belief and obedience.  We don't think that some character invented by bronze/iron age people should be worshipped, obeyed or that it has some great morality. 

What has happened is that the bible has been largely ignored or "reinterpreted" by modern Christians.  they cherry pick just like jst, inventing their god and their religion in their own image.  This god has grown tinier and tinier, vanishing into cracks that theists desperately try to keep open by their willful ignorance and their attempts to spread false information. 

now, secularism is keeping religion out of gov't.   It has little to do with moral judgement.  Humanism does that, empathy does that, and both are certainly more humane and more moral than your book that insists that it's just dandy to murder people for not obeying a god that you can't even show exists. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 03:03:42 PM »
Like for the person that wishes to do harm to a homosexual need look no farther than the buybull to condone murdering him/her.

No.  There is a lot of room within the lines but that is crossing a line. 

Quote
For the nation that wishes to take land from another people need look no farther than the buybull.

God, whose land it was, had already given the land to someone.  But he allowed others to live there until he coudln't tolerate them any more.

Quote
For the parents that beat their children need look no further than the buybull.

And to see soaring youth crime you need look no further than modern day.

Quote
I do not know why theists cannot just admit that there is some awful despicable acts in the bible.

Personally, it's because I don't see things in black and white.

Quote
As far as keep asking...if 20 years is not enough..

Then keep asking.

Quote
The Bible promises comfort from God. 

The Bible also shows that God always works through his servants on earth.  You are speaking to one now that wants nothing more than to comfort you, but you are unwilling because you don't like certain parts of the Bible.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Challenging Timeless Bible Principles
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 03:15:59 PM »
JST, ^^^^^ that up there is a cop out my friend. You said you can answer any question with the bible.

That comes across as angry and spiteful.

I am a bit angry.  I don't expect people to respect my beliefs but I've about had my fill of them being railroaded over with unnecessary and derogatory comments.  Some remind of school yard bullies.  I bet they weren't spanked as children.

But you're right.  I'll answer the questions.  I just wanted to point out that secularism doesn't address the questions at all.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10