Author Topic: How to Control Your Anger  (Read 2274 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2018, 11:17:07 AM »
But forgiveness is the healthy choice.

In my case it's not a choice, any more than my lack of religious faith is a choice.  It is not under my conscious control, and the best I could do would be to play make-believe.  It may be unhealthy to not forgive, but the alternative -- lying to myself, telling myself that I have forgiven when the reality is the exact opposite -- is many orders of magnitude worse.

Well I hate that anyone has been through abuse.  Many victims have been able to forgive, including myself. With no more than I know there's not much I could offer you.  Plus since I am religous it appears that by default everything I post is rejected.  One thing that helped me was meditating on the fact that my hard feelings didn't really affect anyone but me and those I loved.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline albeto

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2018, 11:36:30 AM »
It's a short article.  Can you not tell the difference between a short article and a comprehensive on.

Irrelevant. Your point is that the bible has good, practical advice to offer people today and this article was an example of that good, practical advice.

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I know.  It's only wrong when the source is religious.  You just want to spite it in some way don't you? 

That's not it at all. Good advice is good regardless of from where it comes. Same with bad. I'm not suggesting or even implying that just because something comes from the bible it's immoral and just because it doesn't it's moral, which is what you seem to be taking away from this. I'm suggesting this article offers superficial, inaccurate advice, and as an example of the relevancy and practicality of the bible today, it fails.

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I guess it's just hard for you to imagine that pschologists are now teaching things that have been taught in the Bible for a couple thousands years.  Eventually you might get there.

I'm hearing some hostility in your reply. If you mean to imply the bible has good advice, I won't argue. Some of it is good. My point has been, which I notice you absolutely refuse to acknowledge, that good advice didn't come from the bible, even if it was included in there.

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I'm sorry you feel people shouldn't uphold their agreements.  How is that moral?

This is the third example in a row of your using reductio ad absurdum.

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This puts women at greater risk than the general population because she's not only got to gather the courage to stop the cycle

I disagree. 

I'm not surprised. You've shown a concerted effort to protect your beliefs in spite of any evidence to the contrary. It's only consistent that you would not agree to new evidence that does not protect your beliefs.

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So was the article I posted that contained identical advice of psychologists.  I posted a short article for brevity.  But I can post a wall of text next time, if you prefer.

It wasn't identical at all. But again, this is consistent behavior from you.

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It's a short and accurate article.

You acknowledged in your post it was bad advice.

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It didn't take the Bible writer study after study to learn that forgiveness is good. 

Obviously it didn't take the bible, either.

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You guys better get back to studying.  You have a lot to learn.

Have you figured out yet that worrying is also bad for you?  Or do you need more studies?

Like Solomon said.  There is nothing new under the sun.

So you seem pretty frustrated here. More sarcasm, more hostility, more reducing arguments to silly, simple, inaccurate false choices. You've been banking on a few logical fallacies to hold this whole thing together and when they get identified and called out again and again you seem to lose patience. In my experience, this happens when there's a conflict between what I genuinely want and believe to be right and good, and what I can't have. You've been hearing arguments against this idea that the article, and in general the bible, provides relevant guidance, despite your really wanting that to be true. In another thread you said you wanted to believe in things that are real. This might be an opportunity for you to put that to the test.

Offline albeto

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2018, 11:40:04 AM »
Which is yet another example of the moral bankruptcy of your bible. It values control through loyalty over compassion.

Forgivness is compassion.  You'd rather people punish each other in courts of law.   That's called vengeance.

I don't know if you realize this, but that's not loyalty, compassion, or morality.

A court of law functions to allow two parties to resolve conflict in a calm, rational, logical way. The bible functions to encourage people to value loyalty to Jehovah over anyone else.

I should think it goes without saying that both venues, court and bible study, can produce good or bad results. My contention is the practice of discouraging JWs to determine for themselves which is the more appropriate pursuit for resolving their conflict.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2018, 11:49:25 AM »
I am interested to know why a person with anger issues (an abuser) would seek help in the first place?

I think it's because some people realize that it's self-destructive and that it drives people away.  Why do alcoholics seek help?

In my thoughts and observations spouse abuse can be rooted in insecurity.  They love their spouse but they're unable to trust their spouse or they're unwilling to let go of their spouse.  They fear being abandoned.  They fear being cheated.  They don't want to be hurt by their spouse so they try to control them.  I think it's rooted in fear and insecurity.  I think basically the thought of losing their spouse triggers their fight or flight response.

This doesn't account for all abusers, but I think it accounts for some instances. 

 

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2018, 12:02:33 PM »
A court of law functions to allow two parties to resolve conflict in a calm, rational, logical way. The bible functions to encourage people to value loyalty to Jehovah over anyone else.

A court of law functions to allow two parties to resolve issues that they are unable or unwilling to resolve on their own.

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My contention is the practice of discouraging JWs to determine for themselves which is the more appropriate pursuit for resolving their conflict.

"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already." (1 Cor 6:7)

It's also like Jesus said, "For example, who of you wanting to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it?"

If someone isn't willing to do Jehovah's will then why are they a Christian in the first place?  The title?  Should they not consider the cost beforehand?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2018, 12:04:16 PM »
I am interested to know why a person with anger issues (an abuser) would seek help in the first place?

I think it's because some people realize that it's self-destructive and that it drives people away.  Why do alcoholics seek help?

In my thoughts and observations spouse abuse can be rooted in insecurity.  They love their spouse but they're unable to trust their spouse or they're unwilling to let go of their spouse.  They fear being abandoned.  They fear being cheated.  They don't want to be hurt by their spouse so they try to control them.  I think it's rooted in fear and insecurity.  I think basically the thought of losing their spouse triggers their fight or flight response.

This doesn't account for all abusers, but I think it accounts for some instances. 

 

That is insightful.  Why do you think a person would have those characteristics you mentioned in your reply above?

Asking about an alcoholic is moving the goalposts. Your point was made without adding that in there. ;)
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2018, 12:34:50 PM »
That's not it at all. Good advice is good regardless of from where it comes. Same with bad. I'm not suggesting or even implying that just because something comes from the bible it's immoral and just because it doesn't it's moral, which is what you seem to be taking away from this. I'm suggesting this article offers superficial, inaccurate advice, and as an example of the relevancy and practicality of the bible today, it fails.

So then you're saying that psychologists, who offer identical advice, aren't offering good advice on their sites?

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I'm hearing some hostility in your reply. If you mean to imply the bible has good advice, I won't argue. Some of it is good. My point has been, which I notice you absolutely refuse to acknowledge, that good advice didn't come from the bible, even if it was included in there.

No that's what you keep saying.  You've still failed to post an earlier version of the golden rule.

But really, what does it matter?  I've never claimed that only Jesus could recognize truth.  I mean psychologists now understand that anger should be managed.  They didn't use Jesus.  It just took them a couple thousand years to learn it. 

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This is the third example in a row of your using reductio ad absurdum.

Well suggesting that discouraging divorce is a bad thing is absurd. 

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I'm not surprised. You've shown a concerted effort to protect your beliefs in spite of any evidence to the contrary. It's only consistent that you would not agree to new evidence that does not protect your beliefs.

You haven't shown a thread of evidence that people applying Witnesses teaching causes abuse.  Abuse occurs when those teachings are not applied.

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It wasn't identical at all. But again, this is consistent behavior from you.

Yes it was.  Do I need to show it again.  Here is one:

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Don't hold a grudge

Forgiveness is a powerful tool. If you allow anger and other negative feelings to crowd out positive feelings, you might find yourself swallowed up by your own bitterness or sense of injustice. But if you can forgive someone who angered you, you might both learn from the situation and strengthen your relationship.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/anger-management/art-20045434

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Cultivate a forgiving attitude. First, try to see things from your spouse’s viewpoint. This will help you to develop empathy?—what the Bible calls “fellow feeling.” (1 Peter 3: Next, ask yourself, ‘Is the reason for my anger so serious that I cannot be forgiving?’
Bible principle: “It is beauty . . . to overlook an offense.”?—Proverbs 19:11.

See.  Same advice.

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Obviously it didn't take the bible, either.

Right.  A couple thousand years later pyschologists drew the same conclusions.

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So you seem pretty frustrated here. More sarcasm, more hostility, more reducing arguments to silly, simple, inaccurate false choices. You've been banking on a few logical fallacies to hold this whole thing together and when they get identified and called out again and again you seem to lose patience. In my experience, this happens when there's a conflict between what I genuinely want and believe to be right and good, and what I can't have. You've been hearing arguments against this idea that the article, and in general the bible, provides relevant guidance, despite your really wanting that to be true. In another thread you said you wanted to believe in things that are real. This might be an opportunity for you to put that to the test.

Yes, it frustrates me when people call good things bad, like tying to keep a marriage together.  But it does help me understand the high divorce rate.

 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2018, 01:16:44 PM »
That is insightful.  Why do you think a person would have those characteristics you mentioned in your reply above?

Well I think most people have some fear of abandonment or being cheated.  I think some  abusers don't realize that love is a stronger bond than force.  Love can be scary because it requires faith (trust) in another person.  I heard a while back that love is giving someone the power to break your heart but trusting that they won't.  I think that is kind of what it's like.

But this too can be taken too far.  Abused wives I think are evidence for that.  They want to be loved by the one they love so they're willing to suffer abuse in the hopes that their love will win over their mate.  They're trying to be the best wife they can in spite of the abuse.

But I think in that case, bending over backwards may not help.  Instead I think the spouse should take a stand against the wrongdoing.  Realize the abuser is likely doing it because they can't bare the thought of being without you.  Maybe a seperation can save the marriage.  That sort of uses the abusers own love against them.  Much like a child, show them that their actions are going to get the exact opposite of what they want.  This will hopefully force them to look for better ways of securing your love, and it may take mutiple seperations.  Even if one is willing, it can be a struggle to change.  So assuming the wife still wants it to work, she will have to play it by ear, but she needs to set boundaries and enforce them.

Probably some of this may result from being raised abusively.  They grow up and simply don't know there are better alternative.  But I think it can also occur from growing up without enough parental education and supervision because many parents have to spend so much time earning a living that they have little time for educating their children.  Schools do not teach these things.  So the children are left to their own devices.  The use of force is the easiest thing to learn and if it works, why try something else?

I understand that these thing set a precedent.  But I don't understand why more people are not able to pull themselves out of it as adults.  It's like they never engage the thinking part of their brain.  Surely they can see the bad effect of their abuse and they must ultimately know it's not going to get the what they want.  Unless it does.  That's why women need to take a stand, to make sure it doesn't because they may just encourage the behavior.  The abuser may reason if it's not broke then don't fix it.





 

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline albeto

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2018, 01:21:56 PM »
If someone isn't willing to do Jehovah's will then why are they a Christian in the first place?  The title?  Should they not consider the cost beforehand?

People identify, interpret, and express their faith subjectively. For the same reason you appreciate people allowing JWs to self-identify as Xians, you should reciprocate the same liberty.

Offline albeto

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2018, 01:42:57 PM »
So then you're saying that psychologists, who offer identical advice, aren't offering good advice on their sites?

No.

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I've never claimed that only Jesus could recognize truth.  I mean psychologists now understand that anger should be managed.  They didn't use Jesus.  It just took them a couple thousand years to learn it.

As jaimehlers explained, these same ideas predate the Xian era.

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Well suggesting that discouraging divorce is a bad thing is absurd. 

I didn't make that suggestion.

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You haven't shown a thread of evidence that people applying Witnesses teaching causes abuse.  Abuse occurs when those teachings are not applied.

I have, you dismissed it as lies.

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Forgiveness is a powerful tool. If you allow anger and other negative feelings to crowd out positive feelings, you might find yourself swallowed up by your own bitterness or sense of injustice. But if you can forgive someone who angered you, you might both learn from the situation and strengthen your relationship.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/anger-management/art-20045434

.
.
.

Cultivate a forgiving attitude. First, try to see things from your spouse’s viewpoint. This will help you to develop empathy?—what the Bible calls “fellow feeling.” (1 Peter 3: Next, ask yourself, ‘Is the reason for my anger so serious that I cannot be forgiving?’
Bible principle: “It is beauty . . . to overlook an offense.”?—Proverbs 19:11.

See.  Same advice.

Earlier you said the article you posted was bad advice. Have you changed your mind? While these two little snippets are similar, they're both very brief. They don't represent the differences in philosophies. Do you think this little similarity supports your claim that the bible includes some good, general advice, and that the bible is not outdated or backwards?

I think no one is suggesting the bible is devoid of anything good, including good advice. What we don't agree on is that the good things included were original to the bible, or that this article you offered contradicts the claim the bible is outdated and backwards.

But now we're going in circles, as you're dismissing, ignoring, and at times misunderstanding information and ideas offered to you. It might be helpful to offer a different example to support that claim.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 01:46:48 PM by albeto »

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2018, 05:09:04 PM »
That is insightful.  Why do you think a person would have those characteristics you mentioned in your reply above?

Well I think most people have some fear of abandonment or being cheated.  I think some  abusers don't realize that love is a stronger bond than force.  Love can be scary because it requires faith (trust) in another person.  I heard a while back that love is giving someone the power to break your heart but trusting that they won't.  I think that is kind of what it's like.

But this too can be taken too far.  Abused wives I think are evidence for that.  They want to be loved by the one they love so they're willing to suffer abuse in the hopes that their love will win over their mate.  They're trying to be the best wife they can in spite of the abuse.

But I think in that case, bending over backwards may not help.  Instead I think the spouse should take a stand against the wrongdoing.  Realize the abuser is likely doing it because they can't bare the thought of being without you.  Maybe a seperation can save the marriage.  That sort of uses the abusers own love against them.  Much like a child, show them that their actions are going to get the exact opposite of what they want.  This will hopefully force them to look for better ways of securing your love, and it may take mutiple seperations.  Even if one is willing, it can be a struggle to change.  So assuming the wife still wants it to work, she will have to play it by ear, but she needs to set boundaries and enforce them.

Probably some of this may result from being raised abusively.  They grow up and simply don't know there are better alternative.  But I think it can also occur from growing up without enough parental education and supervision because many parents have to spend so much time earning a living that they have little time for educating their children.  Schools do not teach these things.  So the children are left to their own devices.  The use of force is the easiest thing to learn and if it works, why try something else?

I understand that these thing set a precedent.  But I don't understand why more people are not able to pull themselves out of it as adults.  It's like they never engage the thinking part of their brain.  Surely they can see the bad effect of their abuse and they must ultimately know it's not going to get the what they want.  Unless it does.  That's why women need to take a stand, to make sure it doesn't because they may just encourage the behavior.  The abuser may reason if it's not broke then don't fix it.

If a man hits his wife, are you okay with putting him in jail?
If you wanna make the world a better place,
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change...
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Offline Astreja

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2018, 05:42:07 PM »
One thing that helped me was meditating on the fact that my hard feelings didn't really affect anyone but me and those I loved.

My "hard feelings" have affected me positively rather than negatively.  Not only did they guarantee that I would never, ever return to even a casual relationship with the abuser; they motivated me to return to interests that had fallen by the wayside during the relationship.  My successes -- including writing novels, becoming a performing musician, getting my personal finances in order and finally getting my driver's license at the tender age of 44 (I'm 60 now) -- are that implacable anger sublimated into pure power.

Living well really is the best revenge.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2018, 08:33:38 PM »
One thing that helped me was meditating on the fact that my hard feelings didn't really affect anyone but me and those I loved.

My "hard feelings" have affected me positively rather than negatively.  Not only did they guarantee that I would never, ever return to even a casual relationship with the abuser; they motivated me to return to interests that had fallen by the wayside during the relationship.  My successes -- including writing novels, becoming a performing musician, getting my personal finances in order and finally getting my driver's license at the tender age of 44 (I'm 60 now) -- are that implacable anger sublimated into pure power.

Living well really is the best revenge.

So then would you say psychologists should not teach forgivness?

How would extending forgiveness prevent you from doing any of those things?

Do you often find that you lack motivation unless you have "implacable anger"?

You said you "returned" to your interests.  What motivated you in the first place?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2018, 09:54:15 PM »
This isn't the golden rule.  The focus is what you get in return.  That is not what Jesus taught.
Jst, this reasoning is just plain bad.  That book from ancient Egypt said "do to the doer to make him do".  Jesus wrote "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  Given that the former preceded the latter by over 1500 years, it's not the slightest bit surprising that it would have changed somewhat, even leaving out the different cultures.  Ideas (and principles) tend to do that.  Not to mention that Jesus's statement is also focused on what you expect to get in return[1].  So unless you can come up with something better than that, you're not going to be able to convince anyone else of what you're saying.

Really, I don't know why you think it has to be a Jesus original.  It's not like it becomes any less useful of a principle if the original source is not Jesus.  If anything, it makes Jesus look better since he's making sure to spread this important principle around, even though someone else came up with it first.  I'm not saying that Jesus said nothing original.  But human civilizations had been around for thousands of years by the time Jesus came onto the scene.  Do you really think that they would have failed to come up with the odd principle or three in the meantime?  Especially given the sheer amount of knowledge that we've come up with in the last century or two.

There's also another point I think you should consider.  You seem to be trying to get people here to acknowledge that your religion gave things to the world.  But you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that the world would have given things to your religion as well.  It's as if you're concerned that acknowledging things like this would make your religion look worse in the eyes of others.  Even though it wouldn't; acknowledging a truth, inconvenient or not, is far less damaging than trying to deny it.
 1. since the point is to do things to others so that they'll do similar things back to you in the future
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Astreja

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2018, 10:01:28 PM »
So then would you say psychologists should not teach forgiveness?

For some people, forgiveness may be appropriate.  I think it's okay to offer it as an option.

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How would extending forgiveness prevent you from doing any of those things?

That's like asking "How would learning Klingon prevent you from going grocery shopping?"  It's possible to do both, but that isn't the issue here.

The issue is that I do not feel forgiveness, do not feel a need to forgive, but most importantly, do not want to lie to myself and say that I am offering forgiveness when I clearly am nowhere near that point. 

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Do you often find that you lack motivation unless you have "implacable anger"?

No.  I'm years past that point.  The anger did get me started, though.

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You said you "returned" to your interests.  What motivated you in the first place?

The interests themselves.  However, while I was married the ex put so many demands on my time, money and energy that most of the time I was too tired and too broke to seriously pursue things of my own choosing.  I had to put nearly two years' distance between him and me before I was mentally and emotionally ready to go back to music, and didn't work on any major writing projects for three years after that.

Abuse sucks the life right out of you.   :(
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2018, 11:23:03 PM »
That's like asking "How would learning Klingon prevent you from going grocery shopping?"  It's possible to do both, but that isn't the issue here.

So then a lack of forgiveness is unnecessary just like Klingon is unnecessary.  Not only that but it would be a burden.  So if it is unnecessary then what does it actually bring to the game?  According to research it brings bad health.

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The issue is that I do not feel forgiveness, do not feel a need to forgive, but most importantly, do not want to lie to myself and say that I am offering forgiveness when I clearly am nowhere near that point.

I may be wrong, but it occurs to me that you ex never stopped being abusive toward you.  You cannot forgive what is ongoing.  That's why such ones are disfellowshipped from the congregation.  This is scriptural.  Even from God, repentence precedes forgivness.  It is not unconditional forgiveness.

When a person doesn't repent then complete forgiveness is not possible.  So you let me ask you this.  Do you actively seek vengeance toward your ex?  Do you actively wish that person harm?

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No.  I'm years past that point.  The anger did get me started, though.

Okay.  Then that is a good use of anger.  But just because you forgive a person doesn't mean you can't be angry about what they've done.  If your spouse is doing wrong then you should be angry just don't let it lead you into wrongdoing.

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The interests themselves.  However, while I was married the ex put so many demands on my time, money and energy that most of the time I was too tired and too broke to seriously pursue things of my own choosing.  I had to put nearly two years' distance between him and me before I was mentally and emotionally ready to go back to music, and didn't work on any major writing projects for three years after that.

Yes, but these things actually show, I think, that you have forgiven him, at least to some extent.  Your thoughts don't appear dominated by revenge.

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Abuse sucks the life right out of you.

I know that it does.  But so does a longing for vengeance, which indicates a lack of forgiveness.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Astreja

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2018, 11:50:40 PM »
So you let me ask you this.  Do you actively seek vengeance toward your ex?  Do you actively wish that person harm?

I'm not stupid enough to do anything illegal, if that's what you mean.  It would also be more satisfying to know that the ex had been the direct cause of his own undoing, so I keep a strictly hands-off policy.  Based on past experience, it's only a matter of time.

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I think, that you have forgiven him, at least to some extent.  Your thoughts don't appear dominated by revenge.

The flames have cooled considerably over the past 18 years, but I wouldn't call it forgiveness.  Closer to indifference with just a hint of a sneer.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2018, 12:06:46 AM »
This isn't the golden rule.  The focus is what you get in return.  That is not what Jesus taught.
Jst, this reasoning is just plain bad.  That book from ancient Egypt said "do to the doer to make him do".  Jesus wrote "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  Given that the former preceded the latter by over 1500 years, it's not the slightest bit surprising that it would have changed somewhat, even leaving out the different cultures.  Ideas (and principles) tend to do that.  Not to mention that Jesus's statement is also focused on what you expect to get in return[1].  So unless you can come up with something better than that, you're not going to be able to convince anyone else of what you're saying.

Really, I don't know why you think it has to be a Jesus original.  It's not like it becomes any less useful of a principle if the original source is not Jesus.  If anything, it makes Jesus look better since he's making sure to spread this important principle around, even though someone else came up with it first.  I'm not saying that Jesus said nothing original.  But human civilizations had been around for thousands of years by the time Jesus came onto the scene.  Do you really think that they would have failed to come up with the odd principle or three in the meantime?  Especially given the sheer amount of knowledge that we've come up with in the last century or two.

There's also another point I think you should consider.  You seem to be trying to get people here to acknowledge that your religion gave things to the world.  But you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that the world would have given things to your religion as well.  It's as if you're concerned that acknowledging things like this would make your religion look worse in the eyes of others.  Even though it wouldn't; acknowledging a truth, inconvenient or not, is far less damaging than trying to deny it.
 1. since the point is to do things to others so that they'll do similar things back to you in the future

The Golden Rule exists implicitly in the Buddhist (and preceding) Indian faiths, where karma is the payback for doing something good or bad to someone else. The trouble is that it is difficult to date the start of the idea of karma, due to Indian scholarship being as bad as Christian. Siddharta Gautama seems to pre-date when Leviticus was cobbled up, or had "love thy neighbour" casually inserted into it. The gospel of John forgets to mention it.

Christianity gets marks for saying you should love your enemy or neighbour, but gives no clear reason why you should bother, since it's not clear at all how you can be saved by grace and good works at the same time. Christianity allows you to persecute those who you are trying to convert, but Buddhism makes it clear that there will be a penalty to yourself if you attempt to force your beliefs on others. Christianity fails to lead by example, despite Jesus' imagined words making it clear that you are supposed to lead by example, even if it means giving your life to demonstrate something small. Christianity implies that you should fight a war by letting the enemy win, and then converting them afterwards, by your awesome character.


When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2018, 12:21:46 AM »
I'm not stupid enough to do anything illegal, if that's what you mean.  It would also be more satisfying to know that the ex had been the direct cause of his own undoing, so I keep a strictly hands-off policy.  Based on past experience, it's only a matter of time.

I know someone like that. There is a state in between forgiveness and revenge, which is a worn down state, where you convince yourself that inactivity is the best course of action. Such people typically control you with bursts of anger, lies, threats, busily working behind your back, telling people god knows what. Even educating them how they didn't get away with it, is likely to cause another problem for you, so the inactive option is not to tip them off, so the next person can work it out easier.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2018, 07:55:55 AM »
JST,

Will you please answer my question?

If a man hits his wife, are you okay with putting him in jail?

Quote from: JST

So then would you say psychologists should not teach forgivness?


What makes you think psychologists teach forgiveness? Do you think it depends upon the trauma? Are you familiar with psychodrama?

IMO, from what I have learned so far from college and my own therapy,  psychologists encourage self care. They do not teach. They suggest different ways of being like mindfulness.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2018, 10:08:43 AM »
The Golden Rule exists implicitly in the Buddhist (and preceding) Indian faiths, where karma is the payback for doing something good or bad to someone else. The trouble is that it is difficult to date the start of the idea of karma, due to Indian scholarship being as bad as Christian. Siddharta Gautama seems to pre-date when Leviticus was cobbled up, or had "love thy neighbour" casually inserted into it. The gospel of John forgets to mention it.

Karma has nothing to do with the Golden Rule.

Quote
Christianity fails to lead by example, despite Jesus' imagined words making it clear that you are supposed to lead by example, even if it means giving your life to demonstrate something small.

I lead by example.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2018, 10:13:44 AM »
I'm not stupid enough to do anything illegal, if that's what you mean.  It would also be more satisfying to know that the ex had been the direct cause of his own undoing, so I keep a strictly hands-off policy.  Based on past experience, it's only a matter of time.

I know someone like that. There is a state in between forgiveness and revenge, which is a worn down state, where you convince yourself that inactivity is the best course of action. Such people typically control you with bursts of anger, lies, threats, busily working behind your back, telling people god knows what. Even educating them how they didn't get away with it, is likely to cause another problem for you, so the inactive option is not to tip them off, so the next person can work it out easier.

It takes energy to continue to rent space in your head to someone you have removed from your life. As long as that person remains a presence in your mind, to a certain extent you're still attached to them. The less engagement of any sort, the better, up to and including imaginary ones.

The only way to get completely free of that kind of toxic person is to cut off every single means they have of reaching you, even the ones you make for them.

Forgive and forget is useless. Forgiveness is for the injured party, not the one who caused the injury. The one who needs healing is the one who can forgive, if they choose, and the benefits of forgiving go to the one who forgives. The forgiven don't even need to know about it, their participation isn't necessary.

For some, forgiveness necessary for them to heal, and it can be a long process. Some never get there and do just fine anyway. It's too personal to follow a formula.

My feelings about my father have gone from a boulder to a fist sized rock. It happened over time, and with some conscious effort in recent years. I may never manage to put the damn thing down and walk away, but at least it's a lot easier to see around and carry now.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2018, 10:15:09 AM »
I lead by example.

You just told junebug that you're anti-social. 
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2018, 10:35:00 AM »
The Golden Rule exists implicitly in the Buddhist (and preceding) Indian faiths, where karma is the payback for doing something good or bad to someone else. The trouble is that it is difficult to date the start of the idea of karma, due to Indian scholarship being as bad as Christian. Siddharta Gautama seems to pre-date when Leviticus was cobbled up, or had "love thy neighbour" casually inserted into it. The gospel of John forgets to mention it.

Karma has nothing to do with the Golden Rule.

Quote
Christianity fails to lead by example, despite Jesus' imagined words making it clear that you are supposed to lead by example, even if it means giving your life to demonstrate something small.

I lead by example.

Fear of karma leads to actions which resemble the golden rule, the same way that Christians pretend to be compassionate under threats from God.

Although, karma has larger scope, because it deals with apparently non personal acts. The golden rule doesn't care that you obliviously eat cattle, or dump mercury in streams, or cheat in tests.


http://atheistinsurgency.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/karma-and-golden-rule.html
https://thisibelieve.org/essay/75393/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGdGgBMCNFw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Jainism
See also: Jainism and Ahimsa in Jainism

The Golden Rule is paramount in the Jainist philosophy and can be seen in the doctrines of Ahimsa and Karma. As part of the prohibition of causing any living beings to suffer, Jainism forbids inflicting upon others what is harmful to oneself.

http://www.spiritual-encyclopedia.com/karma.html
In their pocket guide, Karma and Reincarnation: Transcending Your Past, Transforming Your Future, Elizabeth Clare Prophet and Patricia Spadaro have this take on it: "Karma picks up where the golden rule leaves off. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - because someday it will be done unto you."
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:59:09 AM by Add Homonym »
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2018, 11:05:58 AM »
If a man hits his wife, are you okay with putting him in jail?

Yes

If a man hits his wife, are you okay with him being disfellowshipped?

Quote
What makes you think psychologists teach forgiveness? Do you think it depends upon the trauma? Are you familiar with psychodrama?

Well I just posted where they are teaching it.  Plus I've heard psychologists encourage it.  Research shows it's the healthy choice so why wouldn't they?

I am a little familiar with psychodrama. 

Quote
IMO, from what I have learned so far from college and my own therapy,  psychologists encourage self care. They do not teach. They suggest different ways of being like mindfulness.

To me, if they are giving me information that I don't already posses then they are teaching.  If I am learning something from someone then they are teaching me.

Quote
Do you think it depends upon the trauma?

No, but the trauma can make it harder to forgive.  And just because I think forgiveness is the proper approach that doesn't mean that I find it easy or that I can do it at the drop of a hat or even that I could do it under all circumstances.  I have seen people forgive the murderer of their children.  I am not confident that I could do the same.  But at the same time, seething over it isn't going to accomplish anything good but it will negatively affect my mental and physical health.  So who am I really hurting?  Pluse by not forgiving I am still allowing the abuser to have control in my life.

However, forgiving and forgetting are two different things.  You can forgive and still take steps to protect yourself.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2018, 11:20:49 AM »
I lead by example.

You just told junebug that you're anti-social.

Yes, but at the same time I am socializing with her.  I also did say I don't think that's a positive trait so I have taken steps to overcome it.   So I have admitted there is a problem and I am doing what I can to address it.  That is leading by example.

But sometimes I still fall short.  I lashed out at JB earlier when I should not have.  Since, I have taken steps to correct it.  I like JB.  I have seen her abused on this forum.  I hate that I added to it.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2018, 11:30:24 AM »
Forgive and forget is useless. Forgiveness is for the injured party, not the one who caused the injury. The one who needs healing is the one who can forgive, if they choose, and the benefits of forgiving go to the one who forgives. The forgiven don't even need to know about it, their participation isn't necessary.

I never said "forgive and forget".  They are different.

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for·give
[f?r??iv]

VERB
stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake

^ That is healthy.

Quote
for·get
[f?r??et]

VERB
fail to remember.

^ This may be unhealthy.

People forgive animal attacks.  But I'm sure they never forget them.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2018, 11:43:19 AM »
Fear of karma leads to actions which resemble the golden rule, the same way that Christians pretend to be compassionate under threats from God.

Which Christians pretend to be compassionate under threats from God?

Quote
The golden rule doesn't care that you obliviously eat cattle, or dump mercury in streams, or cheat in tests.

Why not?

Quote
http://atheistinsurgency.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/karma-and-golden-rule.html
https://thisibelieve.org/essay/75393/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGdGgBMCNFw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Jainism
See also: Jainism and Ahimsa in Jainism

^ Is there a point to this?

I cannot be bothered to pick out all the errors.  I'll just leave you with an example.

Quote
"If you treat others poorly, your actions will eventually come back to bite you. So, one must in turn follow the Golden Rule.

The Golden rule doesn't teach that.  Neither did Christ.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to Control Your Anger
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2018, 03:51:58 PM »
If a man hits his wife, are you okay with putting him in jail?

Quote from: JST

Yes

If a man hits his wife, are you okay with him being disfellowshipped?


Yes, I am okay with disfellowshipping a wife beater. I just do not see how you square that with TSOTM (Sermon on mount). I know you manage with it, but I cannot.

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What makes you think psychologists teach forgiveness? Do you think it depends upon the trauma? Are you familiar with psychodrama?

Quote

Well I just posted where they are teaching it.  Plus I've heard psychologists encourage it.  Research shows it's the healthy choice so why wouldn't they?


I read one article by The Mayo Clinic staff. You can get advice like that from anywhere.

It absolutely depends upon what you are being treated for. I am being treated for child abuse, all different kinds. My therapists has never suggested forgiveness. In fact when I tell her I will never forgive certain people, she tells me I do not have to.

Quote

I am a little familiar with psychodrama. 


Your therapist will role play with you. For example, one of the more traumatizing events of my childhood she had me imagine my adult self or my favorite superhero, for you it would be Jesus, and have myself or my hero, WW Wonder Woman, tell my mother what I needed to say.

It is very effective.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodrama

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IMO, from what I have learned so far from college and my own therapy,  psychologists encourage self care. They do not teach. They suggest different ways of being like mindfulness.

Quote

To me, if they are giving me information that I don't already posses then they are teaching.  If I am learning something from someone then they are teaching me.


Use whatever word to describe the process that resonates with you.

The more important point I am trying to make is that psychological treatment varies according to diagnoses. Mostly the focus is on self-care. Mindfulness is a wonderful tool to control all kinds of unwanted emotions, including anger. You learn to listen to your body's responses. Mine always starts with an accelerated heart rate.

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Do you think it depends upon the trauma?

Quote

No


You would be wrong. There are different techniques.
http://www.apa.org/topics/therapy/psychotherapy-approaches.aspx
Many therapists don't tie themselves to any one approach. Instead, they blend elements from different approaches and tailor their treatment according to each client's needs.

Quote

However, forgiving and forgetting are two different things.  You can forgive and still take steps to protect yourself.

I tried to forgive my brother for messing with my son when he was 3yo. It did not stick. It was a charade. I tried forgiveness because of bad advice. I tried giving it to God. At The end of the day I was no better.

Now I use evidence based therapy, and my life is much better.

Online you will get generalized advice like you posted. In real life it is much different.
If you wanna make the world a better place,
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change...
Michael Jackson and Batman