Author Topic: Sexism in media  (Read 493 times)

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Offline Jag

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Sexism in media
« on: May 11, 2018, 11:54:38 AM »
I'm opening this thread with little to actual say, other than it was semi-suggested in a different post.

The topic could be worth exploring. I'm not the ideal person to start this topic - I don't pay much attention to pop culture, but the ways sexism shows up in entertainment and in news can be very complex and easily overlooked.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 03:07:40 PM »
It's not a bunch of bots or alt-right people... it's men and women of every ethnic background and lifestyle explaining logically why this movie is a giant turd. I frankly thought the movie was just as unintentionally insulting to women as it tried to be intentionally insulting to men. None of the characters, on either side, male or female, had any good ideas. The only plan that sorta-kinda worked was Poe destroying the Dreadnaught... and he was slapped down for it. Everything else that anyone did for the entire rest of the movie was a net loss.

It's almost like the writers want you to feel a sense of dread, like the Resistance may actually lose. And tell me, which "good ideas" would have saved them in the situation they were in? They were being chased by a fleet that was more powerful, had more resources, and could track them anywhere in the universe, even while they were in hyperspace.

I'm a pro-equality, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-equal rights, person who prefers Democrats in power to Republicans. That's not liberal enough for some, and that's on them.

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. I don't need you to prove how liberal you are because I don't give a shit.

The hero in Rogue One is a woman. Jyn Erso. Why didn't the Alt-Right go after Rogue One? Why didn't the Alt-Right go after Kill Bill pts 1 and 2?

Dunno. You'd have to ask them.

Black Panther was an awesome movie, and if the Alt-Right couldn't affect negative fan reviews on that, how'd they succeed on The Last Jedi? Why is that the ONLY MAJOR MOVIE where the fan score and critic score are so split?

Because after they succeeded on TLJ, alt-right reviews were being banned/deleted, most famously from Rotten Tomatoes.

Disney blaming the fans for this is like Christians blaming people for God not answering prayers... instead of just owning up and saying, "We wrote a steaming pile of divisive shit of a movie." They blame the millions and millions of people who hated it and can clearly spell out logical reasons for why they objectively hated this movie.

It's only divisive because you want it to be. You can't enjoy a movie without inserting imaginary political messages into it. Also, there is proof that the alt-right trolls did organize to try to tank Black Panther as they did TLJ, and there is proof they organized to tank TLJ. You just have to google it.

The alt-right or bot stuff is just excuses made by a company that made a movie which insulted millions and millions of fans intentionally.

Nope, it's an actual thing, and like I said before, "Star Wars fans" aren't a thing.

It's not JUST this movie... there are other movies, not as big of blockbusters, which are written this way... lazy, crappy writing where nothing is accomplished, nothing is strung together... people have inexplicable powers whenever the writers need them to. Just bad.

I have ADD, and even I managed to see that things were accomplished and strung together. What's your excuse?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 03:33:14 PM »
Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?

What does the media tell me about how a man should be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo4MDlKa05E

What does it take to be a man according to the media?

Sexism goes in all kinds of different directions but I don't follow them.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 03:37:15 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 04:20:35 PM »
I haven't seen the  Star Wars movie, so I'll work with this instead.

Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?
Well, I don't think so, but that's not really up to me. As it seems that you do not get trapped in these stereotypes, do you think you experience any sort of ..... I don't know, maybe consequence, as a result of not conforming to social expectations? From other people, if that wasn't clear, some sort of negative response, or subtle judgment?

Quote
What does the media tell me about how a man should be?

I only know what it's like to exist in this world as a woman. As a result, I'm often more attuned to how the media tells me a woman should be, but I'm often struck by the insulting portrayals of men in certain types of, say, tv or movies, just as an example. My awareness of this has increased over the years, for a lot of reasons.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo4MDlKa05E


What does it take to be a man according to the media?
Are you asking me? Are you being dismissive and snarky? I really can't tell.

Quote
Sexism goes in all kinds of different directions but I don't follow them.
...I'm not sure what that means.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 04:59:00 PM »
^^^Jag


I am looking forward to answering your questions and continuing this conversation however my wife and I have a date night tonight so it'll be tomorrow before I can respond with any sort of detail.

Good topic by the way.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 05:08:54 PM »
Ok, good. Looking forward to it!

Enjoy your date night too!
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 05:09:58 PM »
Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?
Well, I don't think so, but that's not really up to me. As it seems that you do not get trapped in these stereotypes, do you think you experience any sort of ..... I don't know, maybe consequence, as a result of not conforming to social expectations? From other people, if that wasn't clear, some sort of negative response, or subtle judgment?

Yes. In real life, I am not aggressive. I have always been quick to think but slow to act. I have always been empathetic and sympathetic. Almost all of my girlfriends, including my current wife, have suspected that due to my lack of overt masculinity...perhaps I am gay. There is a certain pervasive presentation in media about what a man is supposed to be and I don't fit the model. Many men and some women in the military disregarded me because I didn't thump my chest. I am a quick learner and have a seemingly natural talent for everything I have ever done but I lack assertiveness. That has resulted in me still being near the bottom of the rung on the ladder of success and that is why some people view me as weak or feminine which is not a good look in a male dominated society.

Quote from: Jag
What does the media tell me about how a man should be?

I only know what it's like to exist in this world as a woman. As a result, I'm often more attuned to how the media tells me a woman should be, but I'm often struck by the insulting portrayals of men in certain types of, say, tv or movies, just as an example. My awareness of this has increased over the years, for a lot of reasons.

From my experience as a human born with a penis there are a lot of expectations about what someone with a penis should act like and look like and it changes over the years with each passing generation. Tom Selleck used to be a sex symbol. Now it's Chris Hemsworth or Channing Tatum. Hairless men chiseled from stone. A hairy man with a gut doesn't stand a chance unless he is extremely rich or extremely funny...or both. If you are born with a penis you are expected to be strong, take charge, be athletic, be assertive. If you can't do those things or don't want to be those things then you have the option of being brilliant or cunning or entertaining but even then you must be assertive above all other things. If you are not really good at any of these things you are not a man. Women and men alike will dismiss you if you are not assertive no matter how handsome or ugly or short or tall or fat or in shape or intelligent or ignorant or goofy you may be. The media drives this narrative. Seth Rogen is not tall dark, handsome and hairless. He is not chiseled out of stone. Some people think he is funny but at the very least, he is assertive. Hence his beautiful wife and big house which characterizes the other media driven expectation for people born with penises. If the only thing you have going for you is having a penis then you can't have a glamorous wife or life. As if that's the most important mark of success for a man. Every day I am reminded in some way just how unsuccessful and hideous I am compared to the examples of manhood I see in the media but I don't let it bother me personally...at least not too much. I have a beautiful wife and three beautiful children and I am paying mortgage instead of rent. However, because of my lack of assertiveness, my home is worth less than many used cars. I don't fit in well with the "men's club".

Quote from: Jag
What does it take to be a man according to the media?
Are you asking me? Are you being dismissive and snarky? I really can't tell.

I was asking you. When you look at men in the movies, on TV or in print media...what do you see?

Quote from: Jag
Sexism goes in all kinds of different directions but I don't follow them.
...I'm not sure what that means.

It means that media can sexualize anything they choose. So the question becomes, why do they sexualize people the way that they do?

https://www.google.com/search?q=calvin+klein+underwear&num=30&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm_InxkoHbAhUSR6wKHeuGAGQQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=662

I'm 6ft tall and 215 lbs. I have a hairy chest and back. If I buy Calvin Klein underwear, will that make me sexy? Should I wear Marc Jacobs cologne? Maybe a contrast color dress shirt under my boss-level tailored layers and the right attitude?[1] Should I shave my back and chest and take propecia for the thinning hair on the top of my head? Should I shave my balls? Would that make me a man?

My wife still loves me and one of the things she loves about me is my air of confidence despite my lack of actual success. I'm tall, green eyed, olive complected, broad shouldered and have a great voice. She told me 15 years ago that she wasn't attracted to muscly men.

Last week, as we watched Thor Ragnarok, she was swooning over Hemsworth's muscles. I looked at her in disbelief. "I thought you didn't like big muscly men". She blushed and said that his muscles were okay. I'm like, you could have told me that 15 years ago.





 1. https://www.gq.com/gallery/what-to-wear-today-may-2018
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 05:31:50 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Online One Above All

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 05:16:58 PM »
I'm 6ft tall and 215 lbs. I have a hairy chest and back. If I buy Calvin Klein underwear, will that make me sexy? Should I wear Marc Jacobs cologne? Maybe a contrast color dress shirt under my boss-level tailored layers and the right attitude?[1] Should I shave my back and chest and take propecia for the thinning hair on the top of my head? Should I shave my balls? Would that make me sexy?
 1. https://www.gq.com/gallery/what-to-wear-today-may-2018

Send nudes and I'll give you some tips. :P
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 05:32:58 PM »
I'm 6ft tall and 215 lbs. I have a hairy chest and back. If I buy Calvin Klein underwear, will that make me sexy? Should I wear Marc Jacobs cologne? Maybe a contrast color dress shirt under my boss-level tailored layers and the right attitude?[1] Should I shave my back and chest and take propecia for the thinning hair on the top of my head? Should I shave my balls? Would that make me sexy?
 1. https://www.gq.com/gallery/what-to-wear-today-may-2018

Send nudes and I'll give you some tips. :P

Jerk  :laugh:
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Online One Above All

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »
I'm 6ft tall and 215 lbs. I have a hairy chest and back. If I buy Calvin Klein underwear, will that make me sexy? Should I wear Marc Jacobs cologne? Maybe a contrast color dress shirt under my boss-level tailored layers and the right attitude?[1] Should I shave my back and chest and take propecia for the thinning hair on the top of my head? Should I shave my balls? Would that make me sexy?
 1. https://www.gq.com/gallery/what-to-wear-today-may-2018

Send nudes and I'll give you some tips. :P

Jerk :laugh:

I'm just saying, unlike you, I actually like men (and women, but that's not relevant for the purposes of this conversation). :P
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2018, 07:24:02 PM »
Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?
Well, I don't think so, but that's not really up to me. As it seems that you do not get trapped in these stereotypes, do you think you experience any sort of ..... I don't know, maybe consequence, as a result of not conforming to social expectations? From other people, if that wasn't clear, some sort of negative response, or subtle judgment?

Yes. In real life, I am not aggressive. I have always been quick to think but slow to act. I have always been empathetic and sympathetic. Almost all of my girlfriends, including my current wife, have suspected that due to my lack of overt masculinity...perhaps I am gay.
Ah, yes. I've known men who are much as you describe yourself, and I know at least some of them have faced that exact situation.

Quote
There is a certain pervasive presentation in media about what a man is supposed to be and I don't fit the model.
Indeed, such presentation is pervasive, and bothersome on so many levels.

Quote
Many men and some women in the military disregarded me because I didn't thump my chest. I am a quick learner and have a seemingly natural talent for everything I have ever done but I lack assertiveness. That has resulted in me still being near the bottom of the rung on the ladder of success and that is why some people view me as weak or feminine which is not a good look in a male dominated society.
My daughter's boyfriend is a lot like this, and it's caused no end of unnecessary difficulties. The world is not kind to anyone who struggles to be assertive, but I think some impacts are somewhat gendered. Pure speculation, that.

Quote
Quote from: Jag
What does the media tell me about how a man should be?

I only know what it's like to exist in this world as a woman. As a result, I'm often more attuned to how the media tells me a woman should be, but I'm often struck by the insulting portrayals of men in certain types of, say, tv or movies, just as an example. My awareness of this has increased over the years, for a lot of reasons.

From my experience as a human born with a penis there are a lot of expectations about what someone with a penis should act like and look like and it changes over the years with each passing generation. Tom Selleck used to be a sex symbol. Now it's Chris Hemsworth or Channing Tatum. Hairless men chiseled from stone. A hairy man with a gut doesn't stand a chance unless he is extremely rich or extremely funny...or both. If you are born with a penis you are expected to be strong, take charge, be athletic, be assertive. If you can't do those things or don't want to be those things then you have the option of being brilliant or cunning or entertaining but even then you must be assertive above all other things. If you are not really good at any of these things you are not a man. Women and men alike will dismiss you if you are not assertive no matter how handsome or ugly or short or tall or fat or in shape or intelligent or ignorant or goofy you may be. The media drives this narrative. Seth Rogen is not tall dark, handsome and hairless. He is not chiseled out of stone. Some people think he is funny but at the very least, he is assertive. Hence his beautiful wife and big house which characterizes the other media driven expectation for people born with penises. If the only thing you have going for you is having a penis then you can't have a glamorous wife or life. As if that's the most important mark of success for a man. Every day I am reminded in some way just how unsuccessful and hideous I am compared to the examples of manhood I see in the media but I don't let it bother me personally...at least not too much. I have a beautiful wife and three beautiful children and I am paying mortgage instead of rent. However, because of my lack of assertiveness, my home is worth less than many used cars. I don't fit in well with the "men's club".
Can't disagree with anything you said there.

Quote
Quote from: Jag
What does it take to be a man according to the media?
Are you asking me? Are you being dismissive and snarky? I really can't tell.

I was asking you. When you look at men in the movies, on TV or in print media...what do you see?
That question covers a lot of ground, and I'm probably not the ideal person to answer this. Gonna do it anyway, who are we kidding?  ;)

I spent a lot of time over the winter staining and varnishing wood. I often turned on Netflix, but sometimes I turned on this random channel that plays tv shows from the 60s and 70s. It was meant to be background noise, but I still was reminded of a lot of tv that I had totally forgotten. The changing standards are fresher in my mind than they would otherwise be.

Plus, I still do a lot of the things I picked up in school, including a fair amount of rhetorical criticism briefs, so I'm in the habit of nit picking the stereotypes, archetypes, and negative reinforcements common in visual media in a kind of offhand manner.

Things that have persisted, although the expression may have changed, are that lead character men should be: capable, fearless, able to make/provide adequate to ample amounts of money (this varies by the setting), emotionally stable at nearly all times, be attractive*(qualifier - *helpful but not necessary*), willing to and capable of committing violence (good guys can commit violence for defense, and interestingly, vengeance).

Side kicks - this depends on if it's comedic or buddy type. Buddy guy usually has some utterly random thing that makes him useful in some weird way. Comedic guy has none of the attributes of hero guy, and often exists to make hero guy even more appealing - because he likes comedic guy despite his obvious advantages.

There are others that annoy the crap out of me. Like avoidant dad who is forced into spending time with his children and is utterly incompetent, or dangerous. Scared of commitment guy. Book smart (probably wears glasses) but clumsy, socially clueless guy with a high pitched voice. Just to rattle off a few.

Quote from: Jag
Sexism goes in all kinds of different directions but I don't follow them.
Quote
...I'm not sure what that means.

It means that media can sexualize anything they choose. So the question becomes, why do they sexualize people the way that they do?
Money.

I'm not kidding, we forget that the real reason tv shows are produced is to have people paying attention to their tv, so advertisers can advertise. Ultimately, that's how all the stuff gets paid for.

Quote
I'm 6ft tall and 215 lbs. I have a hairy chest and back. If I buy Calvin Klein underwear, will that make me sexy? Should I wear Marc Jacobs cologne? Maybe a contrast color dress shirt under my boss-level tailored layers and the right attitude?[1] Should I shave my back and chest and take propecia for the thinning hair on the top of my head? Should I shave my balls? Would that make me a man?
 1. https://www.gq.com/gallery/what-to-wear-today-may-2018
Um, I'm of the opinion that sexy is at least as much attitude as anything else. And my opinion isn't what's under discussion here, though I have no problem sharing it.  ;)

Quote
My wife still loves me and one of the things she loves about me is my air of confidence despite my lack of actual success.
I'm not going to ignore the rest of your post, but this part right above is the only part that really matters, isn't it?

Quote
I'm tall, green eyed, olive complected, broad shouldered and have a great voice. She told me 15 years ago that she wasn't attracted to muscly men.
She's attracted to YOU, regardless of whether or not you are muscly.

Quote
Last week, as we watched Thor Ragnarok, she was swooning over Hemsworth's muscles. I looked at her in disbelief. "I thought you didn't like big muscly men". She blushed and said that his muscles were okay. I'm like, you could have told me that 15 years ago.
Have you ever watched Pulp Fiction? There's a scene where a woman makes the point that what we are visually attracted to, and what we like the FEEL of are not necessarily the same thing.

My boyfriend happens to fit my 'type' in many ways. I like big, capable men, who can carry on a serious conversation, and cook. It used to be the case that I described my ideal guy as "a suit who works on his own cars", but over time I sort of lost my attraction to the businessman type, and grew more attracted to the works with his hands type. My boyfriend hits on all counts except the conversation one -he prefers to take time to think things over, thus sometimes we can sustain a single conversation over weeks before finishing whatever it was. It's a trade off, and it's worth it to me.

So the first take away is this - finding something attractive is not the same thing as wanting to be involved with someone who has that something. I can look at Chris Helmsworth for days and not get tired of it, but I don't want to sleep with him, or someone who looks like him. Where do I put my head post-coitus cuddle? It'd be like cuddling a rock. A toss me around and ravage me fantasy? Hell yes, but in real life? Nah, not so much.

Second is this - what someone is attracted to can change over time. It still sounds as though your wife finds you attractive, so even if her preferences have changed some, you're still within her preferences.
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Offline magicmiles 2.0

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 12:18:03 AM »
Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

If you do, we want photos.


Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?


You live in the South, right? Concentrate on the first thing, and you shouldn't need to strive for the second!

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 02:35:31 PM »
Should I strive to look like what Calvin Klein tells me a man should look like?

No.

Quote
Should I strive to be the kind of man who wears a dress?

No. 

Quote
Should I strive to get into fights in order to prove my manhood?

No.

Quote
What does the media tell me about how a man should be?

The same thing it tells me, to be something that I'm not.

Quote
What does it take to be a man according to the media?

To be the opposite of me.

Quote
Sexism goes in all kinds of different directions but I don't follow them.

Yep.   

But I just don't care.  I have no reason to value their opinion.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 07:26:04 AM »
Good on you, Jst, but I think what Mr. Blackwell was getting at was that these messages ARE out there ... relentlessly assaulting you and while we're all adults here (do we have any underage members? are those even allowed?) and we've developed thick skin over the years, that sort of thing is very confusing to your average teen boy.
I mean, the world cup is upon us in little over a month, which means that loads of products will advertised using popular footballers ... usually topless footballers (or in tight fit shirts). While yesteryear you could still have players, especially sweepers or center backs, who carried around some extra pounds, these days, they've got dietary coaches and fitness coaches and most players work with weights.
Ok, they're not eighties WWE ripped, but these guys are RIPPED.
And teen boy are getting ads (and abs) like this flung at them constantly. And your average teen boy has ZERO chance of looking like that.

And we've only covered one of Mr. Blackwell's points.

One thing I'm not fond of in present day media, is the insistence of TVs and movies that men are dumb.
Case in point, MacGyver (the new series). There's a marked change in tune between Season one and two.
At the start of Season one, Jack was obviously less smart than Mac but he wasn't dumb. Undereducated, sure, but not dumb.
In season two, he's little more than comic relief. S2 Jack, I wouldn't trust to tie my shoelaces.
Much the same has happened to Bozer. S1 Bozer was quircky but competent. S2 Bozer is often an idiot ... this while he's the science guy.
Conversely, none of the three main women, Cage, Riley and Matty, ever act dumb. Why is that?

Also, MacGyver also pushes female stereotypes ... Cage was brought on board as the asskicker psy-opt specialist ... thing is ... why did they pick a cute actress who looks like she'd getblown over by a slight breeze? Were there zero actresses available who looked a bit like ... I don't know ... Ronda Rousey or Chyna or something.
Someone who, if you looked at them, you'd go "yep, she could snap me in half in under five seconds."
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 10:33:01 AM »
^^^I didn't disagree, at all, with any of what Mr B said. I even pointed out some of the 'manly man" stereotypes that really bug me. If you look back, I questioned him before responding to his post. So far, we're all on the same page here.

I also agree that it's harmful - to both genders. It used to be harder (but not impossible) for me to recognize the ways in which men are manipulated, and I think it's because as a woman, it was sooo easy to see how it gets done to women, and it gets a lot of attention. That it can have the exact same effects on men is not talked about, and in my opinion, that's precisely because the stereotypes are still firmly in place.

(whoops, just wrote several paragraphs about the structures and support of sexism IRL. Too soon to go that far off topic, there's a lot to explore here first)

It's a nice change of pace to talk about this from the male perspective. I opened the thread with no real agenda or sense of where we should go with the topic, it was going strong in a different thread. That part fizzled and died, but there's plenty more.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 10:45:13 AM »
Quote
I also agree that it's harmful - to both genders. It used to be harder (but not impossible) for me to recognize the ways in which men are manipulated

What kinds of ways do you mean Jag? Think I can hazard a couple of guesses, but curious/interested to know your answer anyways.

Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 10:55:48 AM »
One thing I'm not fond of in present day media, is the insistence of TVs and movies that men are dumb.
Drives me nuts, that one.

Quote
Case in point, MacGyver (the new series). There's a marked change in tune between Season one and two.
At the start of Season one, Jack was obviously less smart than Mac but he wasn't dumb. Undereducated, sure, but not dumb.
In season two, he's little more than comic relief. S2 Jack, I wouldn't trust to tie my shoelaces.
Much the same has happened to Bozer. S1 Bozer was quircky but competent. S2 Bozer is often an idiot ... this while he's the science guy.
Conversely, none of the three main women, Cage, Riley and Matty, ever act dumb. Why is that?
This strongly suggests to me that media is slow to catch on to the 'real world' in some ways, and catches on incorrectly in others. But the money will tell the story in the end. If the advertisers are not making a profit, the show will not be renewed.

So who is the target audience? What are their expectations? How many stereotypes (because hey, they're stereotypes for a reason, and they make storytelling a helluva lot easier) can they stuff into each episode before they lose viewers who support their advertisers? Which segment of the viewing public are they trying to attract?

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Also, MacGyver also pushes female stereotypes ... Cage was brought on board as the asskicker psy-opt specialist ... thing is ... why did they pick a cute actress who looks like she'd getblown over by a slight breeze? Were there zero actresses available who looked a bit like ... I don't know ... Ronda Rousey or Chyna or something.
Someone who, if you looked at them, you'd go "yep, she could snap me in half in under five seconds."
This is what I meant when I said the media catches on incorrectly in some ways. The producers caught on that they needed to create female characters that aren't dumb, like the three you referenced above, but they also need to keep the male audiences attention and they don't trust that the most physically tough member of the cast can be anything other than sexy and attractive. Women can't be ordinary and do violence, it just doesn't work that way, unless it involves protection or vengeance - same as the good guy violence allowance I referred to in a previous post.

These stereotypes persist because at least to some extent, they work. People accept them as 'the way things are.'
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 11:03:11 AM »
Quote
I also agree that it's harmful - to both genders. It used to be harder (but not impossible) for me to recognize the ways in which men are manipulated

What kinds of ways do you mean Jag? Think I can hazard a couple of guesses, but curious/interested to know your answer anyways.

Well, the things we've been talking about in this thread so far.

Men are human beings, and despite how things may often appear, they DO have emotions and insecurities. The media plays on men's emotions and insecurities the same way it does on women - but for reasons I don't entirely understand, it seems that talking about how it affect women is common while the same can't be said of talking about the impacts it has on men.

In my opinion: the nature of the stereotypes are such that it's conceivably harder for men to refuse to conform in some respects. I'm not talking about physical danger necessarily, but from a social sanction standpoint, I can see quite clearly that the struggle is real.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 04:42:33 PM »
For your consideration, we have the 2004 movie If Only
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332136/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Both on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes tell me this is a well liked movie.



However … let me first lay out the plot.
Boy and girl have been in a relationship for some time. There’s talk of marriage and they happily make like bunnies.
But not all is well. They show little interest for each other’s job, care little is at all about each other’s hobbies, they only talk of superficial things and little thought goes into the gifts they give each other.
She gives him some random jacket she picked up in a thrift store, he asks his secretary to pick up “something red … she likes red”.
He has a presentation in front of potential investors which tanks, partially because of her. He has to travel to Johannesburg to do a song and dance in front of other investors.
He tells her at dinner that things are hard right now, but he’s willing to soldier on.
She gets upset at this, simply soldiering on isn’t enough. She leaves by taxi … and the taxi promptly gets t-boned.
He watches as she dies in the ER.
Grief-stricken, he eventually falls asleep. The next morning … SHE’S ALIVE!!!1!!11! And it’s the previous day again.

He treats the previous day as a premonition (though there are several hints that the previous day actually happened)
He does everything to avoid the same outcome. He goes looking for her at her job, encourages her to perform her hobby (singer-songwriter) in front of an audience, lavishes gifts upon her, opens up to her (and they have sex in front of a burning fireplace) and he doesn’t book a flight to Johannesburg (though this is because she doesn’t fuck up his meeting and he gets the funds he needed).
They leave the restaurant together and they take a taxi home.
He realizes just too late that it’s the same taxi from his premonition and can only manage to shield her from the worst of the crash.
This time, HE dies … and he stays dead.
We get an epilogue ‘6 months later’. She’s still a bit sad, but she now has something of a musical career so all’s well, right?

OOoookay … I guess you already know where I’m going with this.
What does this movie tell men … boys …
1)   Men need to provide for their women
She’s a primary school teacher, he’s a highly paid suit (both of which are massive clichés)
2)   Men need to open up about their feelings (while she never reciprocates)
3)   Men need to lavish gifts upon women (while, again, she doesn’t reciprocate)
4)   Men need to be invested in their woman’s hobbies (while HIS ‘hobby’ appears to be a few frames of snooker in the pub with his mates)
5)   And perhaps most important of all ... if you’re really really good, you get to die for her
There were also some minor jabs at men, like men forget important dates, men just guzzle beer and hang with their mates and there were two massively cringe inducing scenes … one where one of those mates makes a cringe worthy attempt at chatting up a waitress and one where he’s at her job and act awkward around the pupils at the school.
Cause men can’t deal with kids and act like idiots around them, amiright? Amiright?
And then there was the fact that, on the second day, the sex seemed like … a reward.
He gets to sacrifice … pretty much his entire life and she gives vagina.
“Who’s a good boy? Who’s a good boy? Who gets a vagina? You’re such a good boy.”

I mean seriously … men are disposable wealth vending machines who only follow their dick. Is that the message? Really?

To make along story even longer … haven’t seen Black Panther yet (hell, only just watched Logan … can’t afford to go to the movies) but apparently, there’s a scene where T’chala’s sister addresses a Caucasian man as ‘colonizer’.
This is some massive insanity that the media visit, non-stop, upon men. All white men, currently alive, are responsible for all the wrongs ever committed by any whites or any men at any point in history.
Most of us are Atheists here … visiting the trespasses of the ancestor upon the descendants is some massive scumbaggery we’re used to … from the religious! Yet we now see it pop up time and again in mainstream media, aimed at (white) men. It seems that putting down men has taken on a semi-religious character.

Now, for myself, I don’t give a fuck, people can suck my balls and choke on em for all I care … but I have a son who is constantly told by the media that his only value is in service to a woman.
THAT … I’m not cool with.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2018, 08:19:05 PM »
Is anyone here familiar with INCEL?
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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2018, 10:22:12 PM »
Off topic a bit, but I think still relavent to the subject.

 I'm a nurse. Throughout my 30+ year career, especially the first 20 or so, I heard the phrase, oh you're a male nurse. At some point I started responding to that statement with; "No, I'm just a nurse."

I always felt nursing is a profession and did believe it should have a "sexual" modifier.

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Offline Emergence

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2018, 01:53:36 AM »
I mainly see the media as a mirror reflecting dominant currents in society. After all, the media goal is to gain a profit by serving a demand in the target audience. I don't see media as dictating these currents. Of course, it often develops into a "self-liking-ice-cream-cone" for some time, where existing stereotypes are reinforced by the media and therefore become more prevalent and then are further reinforced and so on. But still, the problems should be addressed in our societies rather than in their media-portraial, imo. Once society moves on, media image will follow...

Is anyone here familiar with INCEL?

I first came across that term in connection to the mass killing in Toronto. After that I read some articles about the "incel rebellion". I've thought about the causes a little, but didn't really connect it to "sexism in the media" so far. What are your thoughts?

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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2018, 10:17:19 AM »
I mainly see the media as a mirror reflecting dominant currents in society. After all, the media goal is to gain a profit by serving a demand in the target audience. I don't see media as dictating these currents. Of course, it often develops into a "self-liking-ice-cream-cone" for some time, where existing stereotypes are reinforced by the media and therefore become more prevalent and then are further reinforced and so on. But still, the problems should be addressed in our societies rather than in their media-portraial, imo. Once society moves on, media image will follow...
This certainly seems to be the case. I suspect that future media studies students will look back at this period in history and have a LOT to say about the current popularity of superhero movies.

Quote
Is anyone here familiar with INCEL?

I first came across that term in connection to the mass killing in Toronto. After that I read some articles about the "incel rebellion". I've thought about the causes a little, but didn't really connect it to "sexism in the media" so far. What are your thoughts?

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that sexism in the media is THE reason this group has formed around such an odd identity. But I AM saying that it plays a role.

There are several troubling themes around relationships in media storytelling. Persistence is rewarded is one, and relationships follow a predictable timetable is another. In both cases, the 'wait' is rewarded with sex. A third one is the idea that everyone ELSE is having sex, and if you are not, there's something wrong with you - or, if not wrong, then strange or unusual in a way that other people notice. There are lots more, these are just off the top of my head.

The media is not responsible for the existence of ideological groups like incel. But the media feeds deeply into the stereotypes these groups accept as facts. I find it hard to see clearly just where the line is.
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Offline Emergence

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2018, 02:06:19 PM »
I see where you are coming from. I hadn't thought about the depiction of relation dynamics in the media like that. I am German, so probably it's slightly different here, but I agree with your assessment, I think.

I also didn't intend to imply that I thought you'd blame media only, but really just wanted to hear what you had in mind. I really appreciate your elaboration.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2018, 08:00:50 AM »
Here's another thing the media push relentlessly ... bad fathers.
The last consistently good father in popular media I can remember is Uncle Phil.
In Buffy, a running theme was that good fathers simply don't exist. Is there a single good father in any of the 12 on screen seasons of BtVS and/or AtS? Fatherfigures, sure, but actual fathers? Buffy's father is off in Spain shagging the secretary.
You might go "Liam Neeson in Taken!"
Sure, he does save his daughter from a life of sex slavery but it's made abundantly clear that he sucks at the actual fathering.
There's a Kevin Costner movie that hits some of the same points as Taken ... 3 Days to Kill where again, Costner does keep his daughter safe but sucks at being a father.
One counterexample would be Homefront with Jason Statham ... where Statham IS a good parent (you know, apart from endangering the life of his daughter)

But usually if there's a father in a present day movie/TV series, that father is presented as being detached from his children, ill-equiped to deal with them and a bit childish himself. And we're told that if a father is forced to take care of his kids, either drama or hilarity ensues (depending on what type of movie it is)
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2018, 08:04:42 AM »
Off topic a bit, but I think still relavent to the subject.

 I'm a nurse. Throughout my 30+ year career, especially the first 20 or so, I heard the phrase, oh you're a male nurse. At some point I started responding to that statement with; "No, I'm just a nurse."

I always felt nursing is a profession and did believe it should have a "sexual" modifier.

Aye, same here, the media jumps at a chance to mention that there are STILL far fewer girls/women in STEM or female CEOs or female senior managers and that there are/should be programs to deal with that.
Yet, the near total lack of men in medical fields (including psychology), childcare, teaching, HR, care for the elderly, customer service and general office work is never mentioned.
And especially for teaching, HR and general office work, I can see this becoming a problem. Yet the media completely ignores this.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:08:25 AM by Fiji »
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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2018, 09:24:28 AM »
Off topic a bit, but I think still relavent to the subject.

 I'm a nurse. Throughout my 30+ year career, especially the first 20 or so, I heard the phrase, oh you're a male nurse. At some point I started responding to that statement with; "No, I'm just a nurse."

I always felt nursing is a profession and did believe it should have a "sexual" modifier.

Aye, same here, the media jumps at a chance to mention that there are STILL far fewer girls/women in STEM or female CEOs or female senior managers and that there are/should be programs to deal with that.
Yet, the near total lack of men in medical fields (including psychology), childcare, teaching, HR, care for the elderly, customer service and general office work is never mentioned.
And especially for teaching, HR and general office work, I can see this becoming a problem. Yet the media completely ignores this.

The reason for the discrepancy is ignored because it doesn't fit the extremists' narrative: most women simply do not want to go into STEM. The CEO thing is also easily explained, but again, doesn't fit the narrative.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2018, 12:12:30 PM »
Off topic a bit, but I think still relavent to the subject.

 I'm a nurse. Throughout my 30+ year career, especially the first 20 or so, I heard the phrase, oh you're a male nurse. At some point I started responding to that statement with; "No, I'm just a nurse."

I always felt nursing is a profession and did believe it should have a "sexual" modifier.

Aye, same here, the media jumps at a chance to mention that there are STILL far fewer girls/women in STEM or female CEOs or female senior managers and that there are/should be programs to deal with that.
Yet, the near total lack of men in medical fields (including psychology), childcare, teaching, HR, care for the elderly, customer service and general office work is never mentioned.
And especially for teaching, HR and general office work, I can see this becoming a problem. Yet the media completely ignores this.

This is a very good point as well. In fact, non-traditional work by either gender is often the 'joke'. I've seen plenty of episodes of shows featuring men in traditionally female roles where the gender "mismatch" became the theme of the episode.

In the real world, my doctor is a woman, and among my female friends I count a prison guard, a cop, a machinist, and a carpenter. My male friends include a nurse, and a stay-at-home dad. I honestly don't know if my friend mix is as odd as the media would make it seem, or if I'm just drawn to non-conformists.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Sexism in media
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2018, 02:35:09 AM »
What show was that? The Nanny? I don't remember. There was this sitcom where they brought in 'a' plumber.
Plumber comes in and OMNEG!!! it's a girl!!!
Two things ... 1), like you said, the 'OMNEG it's a girl' was indeed the focus of the ENTIRE episode and 2) the female plumber acted EXACTLY like a male plumber ... all the sitcom stereotypes about male plumbers got applied to this female plumber. This is something the media looooooooove to do. Here's a typical male character and it's a girl ... and she acts exactly like a man cause, you know, it's a 'male' job.
What's the messafe here ... women can do everything men can do, but they actually BECOME men in doing so. ???!!!???!!! DAFUK!

In my immediate circle of friends (on and offline) there aren't THAT any people going against the flow.
There's a female nurse who's also the highest ranked female Belgian black belt karate.
There are a bunch of female ICT specialists (though most of them meandered into the job from geography)
Then there's the biker chick.
And ... erm ... that's it really.

Guys doing typically female jobs ... a cousin who's an orderly and an English-Russian translator/teacher.

Thing is, as the Norwegians found, the perception of inegality pushes women to go for 'male' jobs. If you remove that perception, women gravitate back to 'female' jobs. And while the hard core left wing Belgian media (seriously, they were notoriously socialist in the eighties and have been moving to the left ever since ... yay for government owned media, right?) keeps pushing the message that women are horrendously oppressed it seems that a large section of the female half of the population is having none of it.

Oh, one more example of a woman going for a 'male' career ... my very own daughter ... wants to go into ICT.
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