Author Topic: Why Would God Have Emotions?  (Read 4173 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2018, 06:38:42 PM »
To have the good news of his kingdom declared to all nations.

and since Christians can't agree on what that is, there is no reason to think that any of you have the right answer or that this right answer has been heard by everyone.  Now, considering the context of the bible, there is no reason to assume that the authors meant the entire world, since they had no idea that the entire world existed, nor that they thought that compilations of books that Chrisitans also can't agree on were going to be spread.   Nice try to try to make false claims that the authors of these myths meant what you want them to have meant.

If they had no idea the entire world existed then why would they mention the entire world?  What does it matter how big they may have thought it was?  It has literally gone into the entire world.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2018, 09:44:56 AM »
To have the good news of his kingdom declared to all nations.

and since Christians can't agree on what that is, there is no reason to think that any of you have the right answer or that this right answer has been heard by everyone.  Now, considering the context of the bible, there is no reason to assume that the authors meant the entire world, since they had no idea that the entire world existed, nor that they thought that compilations of books that Chrisitans also can't agree on were going to be spread.   Nice try to try to make false claims that the authors of these myths meant what you want them to have meant.

If they had no idea the entire world existed then why would they mention the entire world?  What does it matter how big they may have thought it was?  It has literally gone into the entire world.

I do love when you want to ignore context when inconvenient for your false claims.  what was the "entire world" to the authors who wrote the various books of the bible?    And no, Christianity has not gone into the whole world since Christians can't agree on what they believe.  Contradictory myths have been spread, all insisting that they are the one true faith, but none of them can show this at all.  Is catholicism the right version?  is JW nonsense? Protestant nonsense?  These religions spend millions in trying to convert each other to be on the "right" team, so we know you all don't believe in the same things. 
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #118 on: April 14, 2018, 05:27:04 PM »
I do love when you want to ignore context when inconvenient for your false claims.  what was the "entire world" to the authors who wrote the various books of the bible?

Well according to the evidence it means the entire world because that's where it's spread.  So are you saying it exceeded even their own expectations?

Quote
And no, Christianity has not gone into the whole world since Christians can't agree on what they believe.  Contradictory myths have been spread, all insisting that they are the one true faith, but none of them can show this at all.  Is catholicism the right version?  is JW nonsense? Protestant nonsense?  These religions spend millions in trying to convert each other to be on the "right" team, so we know you all don't believe in the same things. 

Christians don't have to all agree in order for the good news to be declared in all the earth.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 05:28:55 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #119 on: April 16, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »
I do love when you want to ignore context when inconvenient for your false claims.  what was the "entire world" to the authors who wrote the various books of the bible?

Well according to the evidence it means the entire world because that's where it's spread.  So are you saying it exceeded even their own expectations?

that's quite an attempt to dodge the question, jst.  Since it hasn't been spread to the entire world, since we have no idea if the "right" version has been spread, your initial claim fails.  And you didn't answer my question. What was the original world to the authors?  Which version was to be spread believers don't agree at all on what they claim the "truth" is? 

Quote
And no, Christianity has not gone into the whole world since Christians can't agree on what they believe.  Contradictory myths have been spread, all insisting that they are the one true faith, but none of them can show this at all.  Is catholicism the right version?  is JW nonsense? Protestant nonsense?  These religions spend millions in trying to convert each other to be on the "right" team, so we know you all don't believe in the same things. 

Christians don't have to all agree in order for the good news to be declared in all the earth.
[/quote]

LOL.  So, what is the "good news", jst?  Which version?  Who is declaring it "correctly"?  Christians don't agree on what the "good news" is, what this god wants and how to make it happy.  They and their bible, insist that the believers of a version of Christianity that they don't believe in are going to hell/to be murdered.  Missionaries do a great job of showing that your claims are nonsense, jst.  I've watched my own church sending missionaries to Catholic countries to try to convert them to the Presbyterian "team", spending thousands of dollars rather than helping people in their own community. 
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #120 on: April 16, 2018, 04:53:47 PM »
that's quite an attempt to dodge the question, jst.  Since it hasn't been spread to the entire world, since we have no idea if the "right" version has been spread, your initial claim fails.  And you didn't answer my question. What was the original world to the authors?  Which version was to be spread believers don't agree at all on what they claim the "truth" is?

I'm sure the "entire world" meant the same to them as it does to me.  It means the world in it's entirety.  Do you know of another definition?

Quote
LOL.  So, what is the "good news", jst?  Which version?  Who is declaring it "correctly"?  Christians don't agree on what the "good news" is, what this god wants and how to make it happy.  They and their bible, insist that the believers of a version of Christianity that they don't believe in are going to hell/to be murdered.  Missionaries do a great job of showing that your claims are nonsense, jst.  I've watched my own church sending missionaries to Catholic countries to try to convert them to the Presbyterian "team", spending thousands of dollars rather than helping people in their own community.

Well it would have to be the version that's in the Bible since that is what the prophecy is about.  In the Bible we read.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Are you aware of other versions?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2018, 11:57:59 AM »
I'm sure the "entire world" meant the same to them as it does to me.  It means the world in it's entirety.  Do you know of another definition?
How do you know?  That's the question, you make an assumption assuming you are right.  You may be or may not be. It still doesn't make the prophecy work.   These people didn't know that an entire several continents existed, and assumed all they saw was the entire world. 

Quote
LOL.  So, what is the "good news", jst?  Which version?  Who is declaring it "correctly"?  Christians don't agree on what the "good news" is, what this god wants and how to make it happy.  They and their bible, insist that the believers of a version of Christianity that they don't believe in are going to hell/to be murdered.  Missionaries do a great job of showing that your claims are nonsense, jst.  I've watched my own church sending missionaries to Catholic countries to try to convert them to the Presbyterian "team", spending thousands of dollars rather than helping people in their own community.

Well it would have to be the version that's in the Bible since that is what the prophecy is about.  In the Bible we read.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Are you aware of other versions?
[/quote]

And that is your version of what you think the "good news" is,  not every Christians.  That isn't all of the good news, is it, jst?  It's quite a bit more complicated than that.  Catholics are sure that if people don't know their details, they'll be damned;  evangelicals feel the same way; JWs feel the same way with their nonsense about JC coming back in various failed ways and being the chosen; etc.  JC himself says that belief in him isn't enough, for demons believe in him.  The bible also says that this god didn't give his only son for everyone since this god prevents humans from believing in him, and it requires this god to give people grace to make that happen.  Some people don't get the chance.  There's also the problem that this god gave nothing, this god invented the reason that this blood sacrifice of part of himself was needed.  He could have jsut as easily said "hey believe in me and my son."  no need for death and pain needed.  This trying to make humans guilt of wht this god did is pathetic. 

It would be interesting if a self-professed Christian actually knew what their bible actually says. 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #122 on: April 24, 2018, 06:43:58 AM »
JST, I apologize for my absence. As I explained, I have been busy with finals.

I want to talk a bit more about the New Kingdom. I find this worldview quite concerning. Not only is it bad for society, it's bad for you. It's an extremely pessimistic worldview, and is not good fruit. It's fruit that is so rotten it's almost decomposed. The destruction and bloodshed is NOT something I would expect from a being whose essence is love and goodness.

Seems to me if God has emotional intelligence He would not pitch such a hissy fit.

Emotional intelligence is the ability to understand your emotions and the emotions of others to resolve conflict. Bible God seems to be a perpetual man-child unable to understand the human condition.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #123 on: April 24, 2018, 12:32:16 PM »
JST, I apologize for my absence. As I explained, I have been busy with finals.

I want to talk a bit more about the New Kingdom. I find this worldview quite concerning. Not only is it bad for society, it's bad for you. It's an extremely pessimistic worldview, and is not good fruit. It's fruit that is so rotten it's almost decomposed. The destruction and bloodshed is NOT something I would expect from a being whose essence is love and goodness.

Seems to me if God has emotional intelligence He would not pitch such a hissy fit.

Emotional intelligence is the ability to understand your emotions and the emotions of others to resolve conflict. Bible God seems to be a perpetual man-child unable to understand the human condition.

Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth. 

I actually think it's quite evil to think that God should not interfere.  Is it better for humanity to go extinct?  That's the alternative according to the Bible.

If punishing those that destroy the earth is bad then what is destroying the earth?  Good?  To me, that is what you are wanting God to do, let humanity completely ruin the earth and life on it.

Please explain how not having people destroy the earth is bad for society?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #124 on: April 24, 2018, 12:46:37 PM »
Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth.

And those whose lives depend on those people, those who are emotionally invested in those people (family, friends, loved ones), etc.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #125 on: April 24, 2018, 01:59:07 PM »
Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth.

And those whose lives depend on those people, those who are emotionally invested in those people (family, friends, loved ones), etc.

I can't imagine anyone will be anything but sad over the losses, but at the same time they will know that if not for God, nothing would be left.  At the same time it will have been proven that mankind cannot direct his own steps.  Those that are left will look to God's chosen heavenly king for guidance. 

The War of Armageddon is not just blind destruction on God's part.  It is only waged against those "gathered to make war".  It's not "doomsday".  It puts and end to "doomsday".   
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #126 on: April 24, 2018, 02:03:49 PM »
Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth.

And those whose lives depend on those people, those who are emotionally invested in those people (family, friends, loved ones), etc.

I can't imagine anyone will be anything but sad over the losses, but at the same time they will know that if not for God, nothing would be left.  At the same time it will have been proven that mankind cannot direct his own steps.  Those that are left will look to God's chosen heavenly king for guidance. 

The War of Armageddon is not just blind destruction on God's part.  It is only waged against those "gathered to make war".  It's not "doomsday".  It puts and end to "doomsday".   

And this is not a fear for me.  It's actually a relief from fear.  For example, I know a nuclear war is not going to render the earth unfit for human life.  No comet is going to destroy all human life.  No aliens are going to come destroy us.  Those that trust in Jehovah are not the ones that live in fear.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #127 on: April 24, 2018, 02:05:22 PM »
JST, I apologize for my absence. As I explained, I have been busy with finals.

I want to talk a bit more about the New Kingdom. I find this worldview quite concerning. Not only is it bad for society, it's bad for you. It's an extremely pessimistic worldview, and is not good fruit. It's fruit that is so rotten it's almost decomposed. The destruction and bloodshed is NOT something I would expect from a being whose essence is love and goodness.

Seems to me if God has emotional intelligence He would not pitch such a hissy fit.

Emotional intelligence is the ability to understand your emotions and the emotions of others to resolve conflict. Bible God seems to be a perpetual man-child unable to understand the human condition.

Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth. 

I actually think it's quite evil to think that God should not interfere.  Is it better for humanity to go extinct?  That's the alternative according to the Bible.

If punishing those that destroy the earth is bad then what is destroying the earth?  Good?  To me, that is what you are wanting God to do, let humanity completely ruin the earth and life on it.

Please explain how not having people destroy the earth is bad for society?

BTW, how did finals go?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #128 on: April 24, 2018, 02:14:01 PM »
Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth.

And those whose lives depend on those people, those who are emotionally invested in those people (family, friends, loved ones), etc.

I can't imagine anyone will be anything but sad over the losses, but at the same time they will know that if not for God, nothing would be left. At the same time it will have been proven that mankind cannot direct his own steps. Those that are left will look to God's chosen heavenly king for guidance.

The War of Armageddon is not just blind destruction on God's part. It is only waged against those "gathered to make war". It's not "doomsday". It puts and end to "doomsday".

And this is not a fear for me. It's actually a relief from fear. For example, I know a nuclear war is not going to render the earth unfit for human life. No comet is going to destroy all human life. No aliens are going to come destroy us. Those that trust in Jehovah are not the ones that live in fear.

Well, for starters, I know, for a fact, all your predictions are BS. How do I know this? Simple: religious people have been predicting the "end times" for the last ten thousand years. It's always "soon", or "now", but it never seems to arrive, almost like their predictions are just plain wrong.
Whether you disagree on my stance regarding your religion, you cannot deny that the JWs (and every religious group with an armageddon-type deal) have failed in their predictions again and again. I mean, I'm sure you can, but that'd be dishonest on your behalf and really display that good ol' JW brainwashing.

Second of all, I do not live in fear of nuclear war. I know that militaries around the world recognize a Pyrrhic victory when they see one. MAD may not be the most stable deterrent, but it does work, to some extent. Even if nuclear war does come, there's nothing me or anyone else can do to prevent the utter annihilation of all life on Earth, so I'm not afraid of that either. I consider it an annoyance more than anything.
That's the power of knowledge: you don't have to be afraid of things when you understand them.

Third of all, if your god really was as powerful and as good as you and your cult claim, he wouldn't need to wage war. He wouldn't even need to snap his fingers. All the bad people would just be gone. Hell, they wouldn't exist in the first place. The fact that he chooses not to do anything while children are being raped and murdered, while newborn babies are stabbed to death, while a pregnant woman has her baby forcefully ripped out from her while she's still conscious[1], tells me your god cannot be as powerful or as good as you claim. When you are an omnipotent, omniscient being, the buck stops with you. Any time you do not interfere, you are allowing an event to happen.
 1. Yes, this actually happened, and it makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 02:18:13 PM by One Above All »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #129 on: April 24, 2018, 02:43:02 PM »
And this is not a fear for me.  It's actually a relief from fear.  For example, I know a nuclear war is not going to render the earth unfit for human life.  No comet is going to destroy all human life.  No aliens are going to come destroy us.  Those that trust in Jehovah are not the ones that live in fear.

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't? 
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #130 on: April 24, 2018, 03:14:50 PM »
Second of all, I do not live in fear of nuclear war. I know that militaries around the world recognize a Pyrrhic victory when they see one. MAD may not be the most stable deterrent, but it does work, to some extent. Even if nuclear war does come, there's nothing me or anyone else can do to prevent the utter annihilation of all life on Earth, so I'm not afraid of that either. I consider it an annoyance more than anything.
That's the power of knowledge: you don't have to be afraid of things when you understand them.

I understand MAD.  As you said, it's not the most stable deterrent, but it's the best place you have for your faith. 

Quote
Third of all, if your god really was as powerful and as good as you and your cult claim, he wouldn't need to wage war. He wouldn't even need to snap his fingers. All the bad people would just be gone. Hell, they wouldn't exist in the first place. The fact that he chooses not to do anything while children are being raped and murdered, while newborn babies are stabbed to death, while a pregnant woman has her baby forcefully ripped out from her while she's still conscious[1], tells me your god cannot be as powerful or as good as you claim. When you are an omnipotent, omniscient being, the buck stops with you. Any time you do not interfere, you are allowing an event to happen.

You appear to want it both ways.  You don't want God to allow rape and murder, but you don't want him to punish rapists and murderers, or at least not with death.

Quote
Well, for starters, I know, for a fact, all your predictions are BS. How do I know this? Simple: religious people have been predicting the "end times" for the last ten thousand years. It's always "soon", or "now", but it never seems to arrive, almost like their predictions are just plain wrong.
Whether you disagree on my stance regarding your religion, you cannot deny that the JWs (and every religious group with an armageddon-type deal) have failed in their predictions again and again. I mean, I'm sure you can, but that'd be dishonest on your behalf and really display that good ol' JW brainwashing.

What you haven't heard is that JWs also pointed forward to 1914 as an unprecedented "time of troubles".  This stands in stark contrast to the optimism most people had at the time.  Witnesses were correct.  1914 brought in an unprecedented time of troubles marked by widespread war, famine, and disease.  Based on Jesus' prophecy this is what Witnesses were expecting to occur. 

Their only mistake was in thinking that Armageddon would immediately follow.  So yes there were mistakes but no complete failures.  They did not discern there was more prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the end would occur.

Since that time JWs have been in expectation of a severe decline in religious membership.  This was one prophecy lacking fulfillment.  This appears to be beginning to occur.

Quote
I know, for a fact, all your predictions are BS.

And now you have been corrected by additional facts.  But I have very strong faith that these facts won't change your opinion.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #131 on: April 24, 2018, 03:16:22 PM »
I understand MAD. As you said, it's not the most stable deterrent, but it's the best place you have for your faith.

And we're done.
My names are many, yet I am One.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #132 on: April 24, 2018, 04:32:11 PM »
And this is not a fear for me.  It's actually a relief from fear.  For example, I know a nuclear war is not going to render the earth unfit for human life.  No comet is going to destroy all human life.  No aliens are going to come destroy us.  Those that trust in Jehovah are not the ones that live in fear.

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

I believe you when you say that you didn't choose to be an atheist.   While we don't agree, I am no different.  I believe in God because I can't not believe.  I can't just choose to not believe.  In my perception Jehovah is alive and active in the world.  Now I realize that may be hard to understand or believe.  But I find it equally hard to understand why you don't.  So even though we are different, we also share some things in common.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jetson

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2018, 07:50:38 PM »
I believe you when you say that you didn't choose to be an atheist.   While we don't agree, I am no different.  I believe in God because I can't not believe.  I can't just choose to not believe.  In my perception Jehovah is alive and active in the world.  Now I realize that may be hard to understand or believe.  But I find it equally hard to understand why you don't.  So even though we are different, we also share some things in common.

There are some ideas out there regarding possible "brain-wiring", for lack of a better term, and how that might make some people prone to believe, and others not. I tend to think that might be true. I just cannot find a way to leap over a faith gap and accept something like a god. My brain seemingly won't let me.

Keep this in mind jst, if there is a real god, and it is what you think it is, then it knows precisely why I am atheist. And it understands. One cannot lie to oneself and escape such a god.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #134 on: April 24, 2018, 08:55:22 PM »
Quote from: JST
BTW, how did finals go?


So far, so good. I did my research paper on fibromyalgia.  My first APA (American Psychology Association) style research paper.

If you have any questions about fibromyalgia, holler at me. ;)

I should get top grades in PSY-241 and HSE-122. I hope to get a B or C in DDT-110.

I will reply to your other post ASAP.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2018, 09:16:49 PM »

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

jst, is ^^^this level of ignorance about the witnesses common on this forum?

i'm still trying to get a feel for the place.

but to ask a witness about hell is moronic.
don't make excuses for nasty people. you don't put a flower in an asshole and call it a vase.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #136 on: April 25, 2018, 06:38:04 AM »
Quote from: JST
Destroying those that are destroying the earth is not bad for anyone or anything other than those destroying the earth.  

I actually think it's quite evil to think that God should not interfere.  Is it better for humanity to go extinct?  That's the alternative according to the Bible.

If punishing those that destroy the earth is bad then what is destroying the earth?  Good?  To me, that is what you are wanting God to do, let humanity completely ruin the earth and life on it.

Please explain how not having people destroy the earth is bad for society?


JST, my man, do you not consider this an either or fallacy? There are an enormous amount of options for an all-powerful being.

What if mankind stops polluting the earth?

Why not allow mankind to destroy themselves? Save the God some trouble, and it can remain in hiding.

Why ignore the historical context of Apocalyptic worldviews? The book of Revelations was written for that place in time. Nero, in the numerical Hebrew, is 666. The whore in chapter 17 is Rome.  Jesus said this generation will not pass before I return. That is the accepted interpretation among most biblical scholars.

Theists like to say how wonderful it is to have freewill. There will be no freewill in this New Kingdom. Children will not grow up, and have kids of their own. Will there even be children there?

All I can envision is a bunch of mindless robots. It's not living; it's existing without purpose.

The Apocalypse worldview Begs the Question--> Why not just create this world to begin with?
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Offline jetson

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #137 on: April 25, 2018, 07:01:24 AM »

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

jst, is ^^^this level of ignorance about the witnesses common on this forum?

i'm still trying to get a feel for the place.

but to ask a witness about hell is moronic.

Hmmm...sounds like you found a religion that has no internal contradictions!

I know very little about JW outside of some of the things jst tells us.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #138 on: April 25, 2018, 08:01:19 AM »
no, there are lots of things i argue with witnesses. but hell isn't one of them.

it's a central theme of witness doctrine that there is no punishment in the afterlife. hell does not exist.

don't make excuses for nasty people. you don't put a flower in an asshole and call it a vase.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #139 on: April 25, 2018, 08:53:39 AM »

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

jst, is ^^^this level of ignorance about the witnesses common on this forum?

i'm still trying to get a feel for the place.

but to ask a witness about hell is moronic.

It's pretty common everywhere.  That's part of the problem when talking to people.  I am automatically assigned a lot of baggage based on the beliefs of Christendom.  This is frequently a barrier. 

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #140 on: April 25, 2018, 08:57:38 AM »

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

jst, is ^^^this level of ignorance about the witnesses common on this forum?

i'm still trying to get a feel for the place.

but to ask a witness about hell is moronic.

Hmmm...sounds like you found a religion that has no internal contradictions!

I know very little about JW outside of some of the things jst tells us.

While we don't have any statements of faith, here are the basic beliefs.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #141 on: April 25, 2018, 09:01:39 AM »
The Apocalypse worldview Begs the Question--> Why not just create this world to begin with?

would you answer this question, please?

the problem of evil is something i cannot encompass. if we're living in a brief overture before the paradise earth, why not go there in the first place?
don't make excuses for nasty people. you don't put a flower in an asshole and call it a vase.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #142 on: April 25, 2018, 10:08:47 AM »
And this is not a fear for me.  It's actually a relief from fear.  For example, I know a nuclear war is not going to render the earth unfit for human life.  No comet is going to destroy all human life.  No aliens are going to come destroy us.  Those that trust in Jehovah are not the ones that live in fear.

and why do you feel you need to believe in this god, jst?  Is it because you are afraid of hell if you don't?

I do not believe in a torturous hell.  I believe hell=grave.  According to Revelation and elsewhere all those in hell, all the dead, are resurrected on the earth under the rulership of God's kingdom.

So no I don't fear hell.

I believe you when you say that you didn't choose to be an atheist.   While we don't agree, I am no different.  I believe in God because I can't not believe.  I can't just choose to not believe.  In my perception Jehovah is alive and active in the world.  Now I realize that may be hard to understand or believe.  But I find it equally hard to understand why you don't.  So even though we are different, we also share some things in common.


Any theist claims that they "can't not believe".  Again, this is nothing but believing what you are told by people you have reason to trust, but misapplying that trust. In that I was a believer, i know exactly why I believed and now why I don't. 

jst, where is this story set?

Quote
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.  20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,  21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores.  22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.  23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.  24 He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’  25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.  26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’  27 He said, ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house—  28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’  29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’  30 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’  31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Did this happen to the rich man or not? 

Now compare this to what the JWs say, something that may or may not apply to jst since he claims he doesn't always believe what the JWs believe:

Quote
1. Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol.”—Ecclesiastes 9:10.

2. Good people go to hell. The faithful men Jacob and Job expected to go there.—Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13.

3. Death, not torment in a fiery hell, is the penalty for sin. “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.

4. Eternal torment would violate God’s justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4) When the first man, Adam, sinned, God told him that his punishment would simply be to pass out of existence: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God would have been lying if he were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell.

5. God does not even contemplate eternal torment. The idea that he would punish people in hellfire is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.”—1 John 4:8; Jeremiah 7:31. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-hell/

So, is Jesus Christ wrong when he tells that story in Luke?  Is he making something up?  There is also no evidence that this god is love, especially in the bible.  1 Corinthians 13 does a great job of showing what love is per the bible and we can see that this god fails the definition:

Quote
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant  5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;  6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.  7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NRSV

We have a god that insists it is envious, that boasts all through Job and the bible.  That has to have things its own way, that is irritable and resentful.  It says it sends lying spirits to deceive people. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #143 on: April 25, 2018, 10:18:06 AM »
I believe you when you say that you didn't choose to be an atheist.   While we don't agree, I am no different.  I believe in God because I can't not believe.  I can't just choose to not believe.  In my perception Jehovah is alive and active in the world.  Now I realize that may be hard to understand or believe.  But I find it equally hard to understand why you don't.  So even though we are different, we also share some things in common.

There are some ideas out there regarding possible "brain-wiring", for lack of a better term, and how that might make some people prone to believe, and others not. I tend to think that might be true. I just cannot find a way to leap over a faith gap and accept something like a god. My brain seemingly won't let me.

Keep this in mind jst, if there is a real god, and it is what you think it is, then it knows precisely why I am atheist. And it understands. One cannot lie to oneself and escape such a god.

I agree it wouldn't make much sense to believe in God but pretend you don't.  But it is hard to understand.

I would also like you guys to understand that I do not judge you in any way because you are an atheist.  Not only do I refrain because that is what Christ said, but also because I understand why I shouldn't.  While I can't agree that atheists are going to heaven because I believe in a paradise earth, I am way ahead of the Pope.  God will have mercy on whomever he chooses.  I believe a very large number of them are going to be unbelievers.

The difference is I don't think they're going to be taken away to heaven and magically made into perfect beings.  They are still going to be very much free-willed humans, but circumstances and conditions will be completely different. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why Would God Have Emotions?
« Reply #144 on: April 25, 2018, 12:10:54 PM »
The Apocalypse worldview Begs the Question--> Why not just create this world to begin with?

would you answer this question, please?

the problem of evil is something i cannot encompass. if we're living in a brief overture before the paradise earth, why not go there in the first place?

I have had struggles with that too.  A lot of people have and do. 

It did start in paradise.  God's purpose all along has been for a paradise earth.  That's what he started and that's what he's going to finish or else he will fail to realize his own purpose.  That is impossible.   All of his interactions have been in relation to preserving and establishing that purpose.  His kingdom, which began with the nation of Israel, is his answer to the rebellion in Eden.  His solution is greater than the sacrifice of Christ alone.   As bad as it was, the flood occurred to preserve his purpose.  All of his adverse judgments have been for the same reason.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know.  It is evidently good for his purpose.

I think many people make the mistake of thinking that salvation of humans is the primary issue.  I don't believe it is. The primary issue, raised in Eden, is Jehovah's rightfullness to rulership.  Even though this issue was first raised in Eden, it has continued.  People, even some that believe in him, don't want to obey him.   And this goes beyond our imperfection.  While it plays a part it is not the whole problem.  Even if we didn't have that some would still choose disobedience.  Adam and Eve are not soley to blame.  Human suffering is a result of that challenge, or disobedience.

Rather than forcing humans to obey him, God has allowed them to spur his direction but also to experience the consequences, exactly like the prodigal son.  Justice does not allow him to protect us as long as we are disobeying him.  It also does not allow him to put a hedge of protection around his servants. 

And like I said, the issue is bigger than just Adam and Eve's sin.  That does not account for all the rebellion that has occurred.  Some say Adam represents all humans.  I do not believe that or else man is a faulty creation.  I believe Adam represents some humans.  Christ represents others.  All things being equal some will be like Adam and others will be like Christ.  So the issue is bigger than inherited sin.  It's the sin that exists apart from that.

To give a final and permanent answer to the challenge to God's rightful rule, this system must run it's course all the way to it's end.  As long as there is a chance for it to succeed the issue of rulership won't be settled.  If he were to cut it short then the issue would remain. 

Bible prophecy shows how it comes to a conclusion with the imminent extinction of "all flesh".  At that time, the issue will be fully proven.  The evidence will show that without God, we will destroy ourselves.  I can't imagine what it must be like for God to see all of this suffering.  But I believe to cut it short would be counterproductive to his own purpose which are for the greater good.

God "cuts short" those days with the War of Armageddon which is waged against the "kings and their armies that are gathered to make war".  With the issue fully settled Christ will then take full possession of the earth and become it's ruler.  This is when all the dead will be raised.  We will then have 1000 years of rule by God through his anointed king.  This results in the restoration of mankind to perfection and the completion of a paradise on earth.  Witnesses believe that during this time there will be more inspired writings that will direct things during the 1000 years, but anything is possible.

Then comes final judgment when Satan is loosed for a "little while".  Many will side with him but they will not be allowed to do any harm. It ends with their destruction.   From that point forward there will never again be a challenge to God's rightfulness to rule.  Christ then hands the kingdom over to God.  The rest is yet to be written. 

To sum up, human suffering is the result of suffering the consequence of disobedience.  Not just that but a refusal to do good.  Not everyone is this way, but a significant portion.  The Bible places a large portion of blame on human governments and religions, specifically false religion. 

I would like to go a little further into Witness understanding of Revelation because it is not typical and it doesn't revolve around the nation of Israel.  Not, I can't prove it's true.  But I can present it briefly for consideration or amusement. 

According to Witness beliefs, the seven-headed "antichrist" is human government.  The seven heads represent the seven world powers throughout bible history with the U.S./British world power being the seventh and last.  According to Witness beliefs there will not be another world power. 

The two-headed "false prophet" is believed to be the U.S/British world power.  The "religion" is teaching people to place all of their hope in human government (the beast).  The U.S./British [false prophet] take the lead and produce "signs and wonders" even making fire come down from heaven.

The image of the beast they have created is the U.N.  It is the image of unified human government.

The mark of the beast is a symbolic mark that represents worship (placing all one's hope) in the wild beast of human government. 

And the harlot, that rides on the back of the Wild Beast?  Religion, specifically false religion.  Babylon the Great.  The beast finally tires of being under her control and turns to destroy her and succeeds.  That marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation that concludes at Armageddon.

Again, I can't prove this.  But I will claim that it fits better than any glove I've ever seen.  And the first thing that occurs to Babylon the Great is the drying up of her waters (people).  This appears to be occurring now.  Religion is losing support.
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 12:19:51 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10