Author Topic: Why Worship?  (Read 4566 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2018, 07:02:25 AM »

On another forum, someone asked why God created us in the first place. One answer from a very cock sure theist was that He created the universe and us in order to show off his glory. Think about that. Some theists believe that we were created to worship God.


if you're talking about me, mr b, my question had to do with the theological reasons behind why a god-- any god-- would want to create anything, not just human beings.

i don't see a human creation as central to the mix, although other people will.

the glory explanation is as good as any other.

If glory is what God was after, do you really think humans glorify God or embarrass it?

I'm going with the latter; if there is a God. See there's lots of suffering at the hands of humans, and not just to humans either. Hell, even the planet suffers from human activity, i.e. pollution. There's human trafficking for sex. Children murdered at school, and at home. There is great suffering in this world that is not explained by a God that created us for its glory, more like for its shame.

Throughout the animal kingdom animals eat other animals, some are even cannibals. Lions will kill little cub lions to take over the heirim.

Maybe plants glorify God, but even they fight one another for the sun's energy.

A more reasonable explanation is that there is no God. Humans are animals. Morality is a human emotion evolved to protect our offspring and ourselves, IMO.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 07:10:54 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2018, 08:07:42 AM »
Perhaps God is like Trump.  He needs attention and worship daily like a drug.

Maybe the people who made up gods were narcissists and were modelling the gods after themselves.

Social science was in the stone ages... might made right... leaders needed some non-monetary way to encourage and enforce blind obedience.  If they invented a god that demanded adoration and obedience, and the king or prophet was the mouthpiece of that god?   If you reward blind obedience with god's favor or some imagined door-prize like heaven... then you've got a mass of humanity ready to do your bidding and tell you how great you are while doing it.

How better to get young men to charge into a wall of spears?
How better to get people to peacefully accept being slaves, or being poor?
How better to get poor people to pay over massive taxes to corrupt rich leaders?

Definitely sounds a bit like there were a few Trumps in the initial mix of leaders back in the Holy Book writing days... say whatever the hell will get enough people to fall in line, whether it's true or a non-stop stream of lies.

If Liberals and Democrats could EVER... EVER solve the problem of 100% of the cost of well meaning social programs being 100% dodged  (price gouging, country fleeing, tax dodging, price raising, research cutting, job cutting, budget cutting... while the CEO takes the same bonus or golden parachute) by the rich and major corporations... and 100% of that cost passed along to the middle class, who can't avoid it?

You'd never see another Republican in office again.  We'd be officially free from the tribal level narcissists if that problem could be acknowledged and solved.

Really good post.  We saw the 'young men charging into a wall of spears in Jericho and Ai with Joshua, the Midianite slaughter with Moses, and so on.  People peacefully accepting being slaves was powerfully shown in "12 Years a Slave," where it showed the slaves finally able to congregate in a worship session of God. Paying massive taxes to corrupt rich leaders - yup - and tax-free churches.  At least the people get to write off their donations to churches on taxes.  Will that change?  What happens when the standard deduction exceeds ones charitable contributions, property taxes and interest write-offs?  Won't this discourage charity?

I don't think we'll ever see corruption taken out of social programs, like the United Way, or misuse of federal funds by corrupt vendors similar to what was portrayed in War Dogs.  I wonder if one day we'll just see a flat tax, or more innovative ways to stimulate the economy outside of higher taxes - and this will encourage more charity, because people will have more money?  I'm not sure - we may just keep all of that money.  Getting off topic a bit but your questions led me in another direction.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2018, 07:28:04 PM »

On another forum, someone asked why God created us in the first place. One answer from a very cock sure theist was that He created the universe and us in order to show off his glory. Think about that. Some theists believe that we were created to worship God.


if you're talking about me, mr b, my question had to do with the theological reasons behind why a god-- any god-- would want to create anything, not just human beings.

i don't see a human creation as central to the mix, although other people will.

the glory explanation is as good as any other.

that's curious since most if not all religions make the creation of humans very central to the mix, when they try to claim just how special believers are.     The "glory" explanation makes for a rather pathetic god, just a human writ large that needs things.   

Your history doesn't speak well about your intentions here, but I can hope  you'll participate in a discussion.

velkyn, as i recall our shared history, it was mostly you fumbling for something intelligent to say and not succeeding. a pattern of your own history, with or without me.

but not to worry. i'm not particularly interested in this question. another time perhaps.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2018, 07:49:36 PM »
^How cute, a snipe a run lurker.

<snip> i'm not particularly interested in this question.
Then why did you get involved?

 &)
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2018, 08:06:26 AM »
velkyn, as i recall our shared history, it was mostly you fumbling for something intelligent to say and not succeeding. a pattern of your own history, with or without me.

but not to worry. i'm not particularly interested in this question. another time perhaps.

ah, my quaker friend makes false statements about others; why on earth would I call out his actions from before?  &)  How unsurprising that you jump in, make some claim and then run away.  So many believers are so predictable.
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2018, 09:37:13 AM »
velkyn, as i recall our shared history, it was mostly you fumbling for something intelligent to say and not succeeding. a pattern of your own history, with or without me.

but not to worry. i'm not particularly interested in this question. another time perhaps.

ah, my quaker friend makes false statements about others; why on earth would I call out his actions from before?  &)  How unsurprising that you jump in, make some claim and then run away.  So many believers are so predictable.

Yeah I don't understand this either.   From the Bible's perspective the creation of humans is critical.  Right away in Genesis 1 it talks about us having dominion over all the animals on the earth (and all the creeping things that creep on the earth, or whatever it says.)  If we're to have dominion over the earth, how could Christians believe anything else than God's most important living creation was man? 

In fairness, I have no idea how a Quaker feels on this topic.  Maybe we could get some clarification there.  Do they have a more pantheist view, and that's why they might feel humans aren't a critical creation?

Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2018, 11:40:10 AM »
In fairness, I have no idea how a Quaker feels on this topic.  Maybe we could get some clarification there.  Do they have a more pantheist view, and that's why they might feel humans aren't a critical creation?

I'd be curious to hear this as well. I grew up Quaker and would say this idea resonates with me. While I grew up eating meat, I recall many potlucks after Quaker meeting that were vegetarian. Probably vegan. The idea that humans are more critical to god's creation because they are born with a highly developed frontal cortex and opposable thumbs was as foreign as the idea that Americans are more critical to god's creation than Canadians, or the Queen of England is more critical to god than my childhood friend with Down Syndrome. As I recall, there was no hierarchy among people, and not really among animals either (with the caveat that animals are beasts of burden, but not to be treated inhumanely).

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2018, 12:39:56 PM »
I don't see how one could argue that humans are to give this god "glory" or "show off his glory" if humans *weren't* critical.   
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2018, 01:29:45 PM »
In fairness, I have no idea how a Quaker feels on this topic.  Maybe we could get some clarification there.  Do they have a more pantheist view, and that's why they might feel humans aren't a critical creation?

I'd be curious to hear this as well. I grew up Quaker and would say this idea resonates with me. While I grew up eating meat, I recall many potlucks after Quaker meeting that were vegetarian. Probably vegan. The idea that humans are more critical to god's creation because they are born with a highly developed frontal cortex and opposable thumbs was as foreign as the idea that Americans are more critical to god's creation than Canadians, or the Queen of England is more critical to god than my childhood friend with Down Syndrome. As I recall, there was no hierarchy among people, and not really among animals either (with the caveat that animals are beasts of burden, but not to be treated inhumanely).

That is very interesting.  My nieces aren't religious, and go to a Quaker school (K-12).  When I've gone to see them in plays there does seem to be a message of acceptance, and no one person or living being any better than another. So everything you've said resonates with me now.

By any chance do you remember if they believe in eternal life?  Do all species get an eternal life in their minds?

Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2018, 01:53:41 PM »
By any chance do you remember if they believe in eternal life?  Do all species get an eternal life in their minds?

The thing that sets Quakers apart from other sects of xianity is the lack of authority. I don't mean like independent baptist don't follow the pope kind of lack of authority, I mean no "right" or "wrong" way to interpret any given bible passage. They believe the "light of the lord" shines in each person (and I'd assume many believe this is true of animals as well) and so they are encouraged to find that light within and follow god the best way they understand him to be. For some this includes eternal life (I grew up expecting it), for others it does not. I didn't know anyone who believed the creation story in Genesis was meant to be read as a literal account of historical events, but rather a mythological and cultural piece of history, replete with useful analogies for the taking. I imagine many Quakers feel the same about the resurrection stories.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2018, 02:50:07 PM »
The thing that sets Quakers apart from other sects of xianity is the lack of authority. I don't mean like independent baptist don't follow the pope kind of lack of authority, I mean no "right" or "wrong" way to interpret any given bible passage. They believe the "light of the lord" shines in each person (and I'd assume many believe this is true of animals as well) and so they are encouraged to find that light within and follow god the best way they understand him to be. For some this includes eternal life (I grew up expecting it), for others it does not. I didn't know anyone who believed the creation story in Genesis was meant to be read as a literal account of historical events, but rather a mythological and cultural piece of history, replete with useful analogies for the taking. I imagine many Quakers feel the same about the resurrection stories.

there are different kinds of quakers, depending on their local history in the last 200 years. most quakers are similar to nondenominational baptists, speak swahili, and live in east africa. the next biggest group speaks spanish, lives in south america, and are similar to evangelical protestants. the commonest english-speaking quakers are evangelical protestants and live mostly in north america. in britain most quakers are what are called liberal-- unprogrammed waiting worship, christianity-optional. there are about 17,000 liberal quakers in america, mostly in cities and university towns. they practice unprogrammed waiting worship, and may be christian, buddhist, jewish, atheist, or agnostic, as i am. i'm a bit different as i'm a member of the conservative branch, the very smallest group, mostly christian. we still maintain lots of old practices that the other groups have given up. there's a lot of variety in our beliefs.

albeto, what was the name of your yearly meeting?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 02:51:48 PM by kevinagain »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2018, 02:59:01 PM »
there are different kinds of quakers, depending on their local history in the last 200 years. most quakers are similar to nondenominational baptists, speak swahili, and live in east africa. the next biggest group speaks spanish, lives in south america, and are similar to evangelical protestants. the commonest english-speaking quakers are evangelical protestants and live mostly in north america. in britain most quakers are what are called liberal-- unprogrammed waiting worship, christianity-optional. there are about 17,000 liberal quakers in america, mostly in cities and university towns. they practice unprogrammed waiting worship, and may be christian, buddhist, jewish, atheist, or agnostic, as i am. i'm a bit different as i'm a member of the conservative branch, the very smallest group, mostly christian. we still maintain lots of old practices that the other groups have given up. there's a lot of variety in our beliefs.

albeto, what was the name of your yearly meeting?

I had no idea. That's quite interesting. Apparently I grew up British heritage of waiting worship. I didn't realize there were practices of any kind, as I thought the waiting upon the holy spirit was the identifying marker of Quakers. Then again, I didn't know there were different sects of Quakers! When you say you maintain lots of old practices, what do you mean? What are these practices? We gathered in the main room of a member's home and eventually everyone would settle into quiet contemplation. Occasionally someone would speak very briefly. There was no discussion. Then mysteriously, people would start opening their eyes, looking around, smile, greet each other and we'd move to bring together a pot-luck lunch. As a kid that always mystified me - how did the adults know when to stop being quiet? My siblings and I were allowed to leave after 15 minutes when we were very young. We were allowed to play quietly (ie, draw) in another room.

I have no idea what the yearly meetings in my area were called, or where they were. I grew up in a bit of a remote area, travelling to different people's homes for meetings. My family went about once per month because of the distance.

As an adult I converted to the RCC. I am no longer religious.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:03:13 PM by albeto »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2018, 03:20:16 PM »
with the differences among those who want the name Quaker, it makes the term meaningless. 
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2018, 05:51:29 PM »
When you say you maintain lots of old practices, what do you mean? What are these practices?

i belong to ohio yearly meeting conservative, which practices waiting worship like the liberal quakers, but is still explicitly christian in faith and practice, like the current protestant quakers. mostly it's conservative in the sense that it attempts to continue the old 18th and 19th century practice of quakerism. it's the only safe place where a quaker can safely adopt the plain dress, for instance, which other quakers feel threatened by, for some reason. OYM still appoints ministers, elders, and overseers, still maintains a meeting for ministry and oversight,  and still views waiting worship as a means of arriving at unity, rather than consensus.

there's a lot of diversity in quakerism, because the original idea was to ditch the forms and rituals and just follow the holy ghost directly in all aspects of your life. so today you can find buddhist, christian, and atheist quakers all worshipping together in the same meeting, because they're looking for commonalities instead of differences.nobody has a problem with me as an agnostic.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2018, 07:36:45 PM »
i belong to ohio yearly meeting conservative, which practices waiting worship like the liberal quakers, but is still explicitly christian in faith and practice, like the current protestant quakers. mostly it's conservative in the sense that it attempts to continue the old 18th and 19th century practice of quakerism. it's the only safe place where a quaker can safely adopt the plain dress, for instance, which other quakers feel threatened by, for some reason. OYM still appoints ministers, elders, and overseers, still maintains a meeting for ministry and oversight,  and still views waiting worship as a means of arriving at unity, rather than consensus.

That sounds so weird to me, like that doesn't sound like Quakerism but a generic Protestantism. But then, no one asked me. ;-)

there's a lot of diversity in quakerism, because the original idea was to ditch the forms and rituals and just follow the holy ghost directly in all aspects of your life. so today you can find buddhist, christian, and atheist quakers all worshipping together in the same meeting, because they're looking for commonalities instead of differences.nobody has a problem with me as an agnostic.

Meh. There's a lot of diversity because if a religious community wants to maintain relevance, it has to appeal to its customer base. In the US, the Xian customer base is as diverse as it gets. Supply and Demand, baby.

Offline Basset Hound

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2018, 07:44:12 PM »
Worship is what god eats.  Gods need worship to survive or they starve to death.  Where are all those gods who are no longer worshiped?  They are dead.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2018, 07:45:11 PM »
That sounds so weird to me, like that doesn't sound like Quakerism but a generic Protestantism. But then, no one asked me. ;-)

maybe. in practice the whole thing looks pretty different. no priests, no sermons, no songs. just people sitting quietly listening to the spirit.

the whole doctrine of the inward light is what defines traditional quakerism, and mostly protestants used to tell me that i was being led by the devil.

catholics too.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2018, 08:26:50 PM »
maybe. in practice the whole thing looks pretty different. no priests, no sermons, no songs. just people sitting quietly listening to the spirit.

I think I'm confusing myself. The idea of listening to the spirit, or following the inner light are things I recognize about Quaker doctrine. But I don't recognize the ministers and overseers and various practices you're talking about. What do the ministers do? What practices are there? Our only practice was gathering and getting quiet. Meeting lasted an hour, more or less. People were very friendly. Humility and pacifism were way up on the top of the chart of personal characteristics to be striven for. I never considered Quakers to have any kind of ministry.

the whole doctrine of the inward light is what defines traditional quakerism, and mostly protestants used to tell me that i was being led by the devil.

catholics too.

Ha! Not surprising!

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2018, 08:49:28 PM »
Growing up in the Church of the Brethren, we, along with the Mennonite beliefs my mom grew up with, had a song:

"Quaker meeting has begun, no more laughing, no more fun, no more showing the white's of your teeth, no more chewing chewing gum....."  and then the song was up to the singers to continue to add every possible thing that one could think of, to not be allowed to do.  Of course we were just stupid kids, not realizing our beliefs were as small as anyone's.   Today, I very much appreciate the local Friends Meeting House as a very cool place, politically active, great bluegrass, with all types of welcoming to all types of beliefs.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 08:51:04 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2018, 08:58:38 PM »
I think I'm confusing myself. The idea of listening to the spirit, or following the inner light are things I recognize about Quaker doctrine. But I don't recognize the ministers and overseers and various practices you're talking about. What do the ministers do? What practices are there? Our only practice was gathering and getting quiet. Meeting lasted an hour, more or less. People were very friendly. Humility and pacifism were way up on the top of the chart of personal characteristics to be striven for. I never considered Quakers to have any kind of ministry.

those are the old practices-- church polity. the liberals have abandoned it, the evangelicals have distorted it to conform to protestanism.

a recognized minister is someone who appears to be consistently led by the holy ghost when he or she speaks. but there's nobody who is ever delegated to speak in a meeting. anybody can, even first time strangers. the first recognized minister in the society was elizabeth hooten, back around 1652. my meeting doesn't have any at the moment, because the last good one died last year.

elders are there to tell the minister that he should have sat down and shut up, or maybe got up and spoken when he didn't.

the overseers are there to make sure absent people don't get forgotten, and to handle membership issues and so forth.

most liberal meetings have abandoned these offices because they were often abused in the past, leading to a hierarchy of "official people." it's a valid criticism. in my yearly meeting, i consider the ministers, elders, and overseers mostly to be hindrances in serving the church.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2018, 09:01:47 PM »
Growing up in the Church of the Brethren, we, along with the Mennonite beliefs my mom grew up with, had a song:

"Quaker meeting has begun, no more laughing, no more fun, no more showing the white's of your teeth, no more chewing chewing gum....."  and then the song was up to the singers to continue to add every possible thing that one could think of, to not be allowed to do.  Of course we were just stupid kids, not realizing our beliefs were as small as anyone's.   Today, I very much appreciate the local Friends Meeting House as a very cool place, politically active, great bluegrass, with all types of welcoming to all types of beliefs.

brethren. interesting. lots of anabaptists where i live.

around here it was, quaker meeting's just begun, no more laughing no more fun. if you should dare to crack a smile, we'll make you walk a quaker mile . . .

the quakers have been active in a lot of progressive movements, and some colossal mistakes, too.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2018, 12:15:47 PM »
those are the old practices-- church polity. the liberals have abandoned it, the evangelicals have distorted it to conform to protestanism.

Yep. Every single Protestant sect believes it's making the right corrections the previous ones failed to see. Everyong things the previous ones have somehow abandoned or distorted the "real faith," and they alone know how to get back to it. Jesus is lucky to have them, lol!



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a recognized minister is someone who appears to be consistently led by the holy ghost when he or she speaks.


Isn't that interesting? Shouldn't the holy ghost be able to appear consistently to those who want it, who ask? Shouldn't a Quaker Meeting be full of people to whom the holy ghost consistently appears? Anyway, I had been led to believe that's what George Fox claimed, that this belief is what motivated him to start the newest real xian community. It's what the bible says. Of course, if any biblical claims were valid, we would see quite a different reality.

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my meeting doesn't have any at the moment, because the last good one died last year.

Sounds like the minister is the best salesman of the little company, decided by popular vote.

"Quaker meeting has begun, no more laughing, no more fun, no more showing the white's of your teeth, no more chewing chewing gum....."  and then the song was up to the singers to continue to add every possible thing that one could think of, to not be allowed to do. 
around here it was, quaker meeting's just begun, no more laughing no more fun. if you should dare to crack a smile, we'll make you walk a quaker mile . . .

I never heard those, lol!

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2018, 02:28:04 PM »
Isn't that interesting? Shouldn't the holy ghost be able to appear consistently to those who want it, who ask? Shouldn't a Quaker Meeting be full of people to whom the holy ghost consistently appears? Anyway, I had been led to believe that's what George Fox claimed, that this belief is what motivated him to start the newest real xian community. It's what the bible says. Of course, if any biblical claims were valid, we would see quite a different reality.

why? if it were up to me to define god as a self-projection in my own image, i might say yes. but i have no reason to think that my projections should define any god, if any exist. on the other hand, you're right. the old quakers believed that the Light was accessible to everybody, but that not everybody paid attention to it. maybe that would be the answer.

and different people have different skills. to be a minister requires different skills than being an overseer, or a carpenter, or a motorcycle mechanic.

modern liberal quakers don't pay much attention to the bible, as most aren't christian. the conservatives and liberals aren't even protestant, by any usual definition.

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Quote
my meeting doesn't have any at the moment, because the last good one died last year.

Sounds like the minister is the best salesman of the little company, decided by popular vote.

we don't vote, on anything. we reach a unity on issues, or at least try to. if the clerk can't discern an overall unity on a question, we put it off, sometimes forever. doesn't always work that way, though.

Quote
I never heard those, lol!

the old wilburites were pretty dour, no doubt about it. we used to disown people for drinking, attending a non-quaker marriage ceremony, or owning a piano. i once counted up the ways you could be disowned in an 1867 book of discipline. in 105 pages, 57 of them contained one or more ways you could be drummed out of meeting.

we're not so bad now, but still pretty weird. my meeting has defied the old guard ministers and elders with respect to gay marriage and has refused to condemn it. that's made things pretty tense at yearly meetings, but the bigots are gradually losing the battles.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 02:32:56 PM by kevinagain »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2018, 06:15:05 PM »
why?

I don't understand your question. Why should a religion be held accountable to the claims it made? Why should reliability be a value we hold in high esteem? Why should anyone adhere to a belief system if the beliefs themselves are irrelevant? Why bother knowing fact from fantasy?

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modern liberal quakers don't pay much attention to the bible, as most aren't christian. the conservatives and liberals aren't even protestant, by any usual definition.

I suspect many of the more progressive xian church sects will end up following this path. It's how people will hold on to religion. It will be the only way they can maintain relevancy in the coming years. Already we're seeing such damage to the reputation of the xian faith by way of exposing the ridiculousness of its claims and toxicity of its members when compared to reasonable alternatives to questions people have been asking for years. That, and on the other side of the fence, the churches that maintain conventional beliefs will be more hardcore. The churches that are growing despite the overall rejection of churches are the ones that offer a black and white approach to life, the ones that make the decisions of what is right or wrong so the individual need only follow a prescribed code of behavior.

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the old wilburites were pretty dour, no doubt about it. we used to disown people for drinking, attending a non-quaker marriage ceremony, or owning a piano. i once counted up the ways you could be disowned in an 1867 book of discipline. in 105 pages, 57 of them contained one or more ways you could be drummed out of meeting.

Yikes! I had no idea they were so hardcore, lol!

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but the bigots are gradually losing the battles.

Not fast enough, sadly.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »
why?

I don't understand your question. Why should a religion be held accountable to the claims it made? Why should reliability be a value we hold in high esteem? Why should anyone adhere to a belief system if the beliefs themselves are irrelevant? Why bother knowing fact from fantasy?

good point. but traditional quakers have never held to the idea that everybody can hear god as well as everybody else. that's the whole reason for having ministers in the first place. but there is an underlying belief that everybody should be able to hear the holy ghost to some degree, and follow it. the old way of describing this was the concept of one's measure of the Light.

everybody had some measure of the Light, and whatever they had was sufficient to work out their salvation. but everybody's measure was different. some people were spectacular saints, other people were workhorse followers. whatever they were given was held to be enough, individually, but not everybody had as much as anybody else.

anyway, maybe that doesn't answer your question. the quaker solution was that you were able to hear the holy spirit as well as your measure allowed; and whatever that was was good enough,although it might not be as good as the person next to you.


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. Already we're seeing such damage to the reputation of the xian faith by way of exposing the ridiculousness of its claims and toxicity of its members when compared to reasonable alternatives to questions people have been asking for years.

i'm not seeing that myself, in america. fundamentalism is alive and growing here.

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but the bigots are gradually losing the battles.

Not fast enough, sadly.

pretty quick, among the society of friends. we're usually a century or so ahead of the dominant culture.
don't make excuses for nasty people. you don't put a flower in an asshole and call it a vase.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2018, 06:56:12 AM »
Quote from: kevinagain
pretty quick, among the society of friends. we're usually a century or so ahead of the dominant culture.

You must not live in the South.  ;)

Evangelicals are still having a hard time excepting gay marriage around here. The Methodists are alright, but the rest are not.

I think I'm starting to like Quakers though. Y'all seem nice. The way you describe it is pretty in tune with being Christ like.

One of my favorite old GOSPEL tunes is I Saw the Light.

I have to admit, I still don't understand- why a God needs worship?

Maybe it's not God that needs it. Maybe it's humans instead. If there is a good God, by that very definition it would not desire worship.

When I was a theist, I believed starting a religion in Jesus' name was a dishonor to him. I reckon, I came to that conclusion because it was religious believers that hung him on that cross, and the sermon on the mount where Jesus socked it to religious traditions. Then there's the contradicting verse where Jesus tells the disciples to go spread the good news, but that doesn't necessarily mean start a religion and spread it by the sword and blood shed. That is not good news at all! That is awfully terrible news!

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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2018, 08:30:13 AM »
ohio for me.

liberal quakers have been doing gay marriages for at least 20 or 30 years in ohio, i think. the coservatives are mostly accepting, but its universal, and the evangelicals arent intetested. tbe last group isnt really quaker anymore, though. mstly baptist.

but theres no central authority. yearly and quarterly and monthly meetings are mostly independent. andweve got some real bastards, like everybody else.

i asked a txas baptist last week why god needs worshipI. his view was that it was appropriate to glorify god and the creation. he's not often clear. mr b referred to him in the first post here. when you ask him for explanations he gets foggy with seminary jargon, so the exchangeI of knowedge stops.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:49:10 AM by kevinagain »
don't make excuses for nasty people. you don't put a flower in an asshole and call it a vase.

Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2018, 11:19:41 AM »
anyway, maybe that doesn't answer your question. the quaker solution was that you were able to hear the holy spirit as well as your measure allowed; and whatever that was was good enough,although it might not be as good as the person next to you.

It does. Thanks.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2018, 12:03:28 PM »
Quote from: kevinagain
i asked a txas baptist last week why god needs worshipI. his view was that it was appropriate to glorify god and the creation. he's not often clear. mr b referred to him in the first post here. when you ask him for explanations he gets foggy with seminary jargon, so the exchangeI of knowedge stops.

The Texan's explanation takes believers away from an all-loving good God. 

I'm still stuck on the idea that it is humans that need to worship. Why? Well because it offers them some control in a world where it's easy to feel helpless against the forces of nature. It really sucks to feel helpless.

I never felt more helpless than I did when I was a theist. Being atheist puts you behind the wheel. Your purpose is yours to explore and create. Life feels more like a blessing and less like a curse. After all, you don't need a doctor if you ain't sick.

I do not see any reason why a Christian couldn't adopt that hypothesis except for claiming biblical inerrancy. That gets in the way a lot in terms of defining God as all-loving and good.
If you wanna make the world a better place,
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change...
Michael Jackson and Batman