Author Topic: Why Worship?  (Read 4371 times)

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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2018, 02:06:26 PM »

I'm still stuck on the idea that it is humans that need to worship. Why? Well because it offers them some control in a world where it's easy to feel helpless against the forces of nature. It really sucks to feel helpless.

i think thats as good an explanation for tbe origin of religion as any. appeasi g forces beyond your control.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2018, 08:34:25 AM »

I'm still stuck on the idea that it is humans that need to worship. Why? Well because it offers them some control in a world where it's easy to feel helpless against the forces of nature. It really sucks to feel helpless.

i think thats as good an explanation for tbe origin of religion as any. appeasi g forces beyond your control.

Kevin, would this be the reason you follow a religion?
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2018, 08:47:34 AM »
i dont follow a religion, velkyn. i'm a non-theist.
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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2018, 09:07:00 AM »
i dont follow a religion, velkyn. i'm a non-theist.

Could you clarify that please?

What is the difference between a non-theist, and an atheist, or a diest, or an agnostic? I don't recognize whatever subtlety is being expressed by the self-assigned label[1] of non-theist.
 1. the only kind of label that should matter, IMNSHO
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2018, 09:46:34 AM »
hi jag

im a nontheist friend, because that purposely broad term is the one used in tbe society of friends to describe members whk do not have a traditional view of god, or have no view. i call myself an agnostic because my position is one of explicit ignorance, not certainty of anything. the old measures i once used to think about religion no longer seem valid to me, and i have no reasonable replacements.

what is an agnostic to you? why is classification important?
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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2018, 10:15:29 AM »
hi jag

im a nontheist friend, because that purposely broad term is the one used in tbe society of friends to describe members whk do not have a traditional view of god, or have no view. i call myself an agnostic because my position is one of explicit ignorance, not certainty of anything. the old measures i once used to think about religion no longer seem valid to me, and i have no reasonable replacements.
That helps, thanks.

Quote
what is an agnostic to you?
It doesn't really matter anymore, as that isn't what you meant. But I generally assume that it refers to someone who takes the position that the existence or non-existence of god(s) is beyond human knowledge. I stick with that until or unless they add details that lead me to interpret the term some other way in relationship to themselves.

Quote
why is classification important?
It's not so much that classification is 'important' as it is that clarity of terms keeps us talking about the same things in the same context. I don't hear the term non-theist very often, and wanted to be sure I understood what you mean by that term. Nothing insidious, just wanted clarity so I don't misunderstand your position.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2018, 10:28:05 AM »
ah

i see. maybe its more a quaker thing than i thought? its a common term in the liberal wing of the society.

hard for me to understand the term "agnostic" meaning tbat something is unknowable. anything and everything is unknowable if one doubts one's senses. for agnostic to mean that, one has to accept rules about what knowledge is valid and what is not. most people dont do that thoroughly, i think.
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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 10:41:19 AM »
ah

i see. maybe its more a quaker thing than i thought? its a common term in the liberal wing of the society.

hard for me to understand the term "agnostic" meaning tbat something is unknowable. anything and everything is unknowable if one doubts one's senses. for agnostic to mean that, one has to accept rules about what knowledge is valid and what is not. most people dont do that thoroughly, i think.

TBH, none of the terms really make much sense to me. As far as I can tell, you either believe in a god or gods, or you don't. But people are free to assign whatever labels they wish, to themselves. Just like I'm free to think that most of it is just nonsense, intended to make people feel special in some way. Like I said, it's helpful to know specifically what people mean when they use a term to describe themselves; language is used much more fluidly that actual definitions allow for.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2018, 10:54:58 AM »
ah

i see. maybe its more a quaker thing than i thought? its a common term in the liberal wing of the society.

I think it's getting more common. More and more churches are finding they keep their customers longer if they stop pronouncing truths. Not all, but many, and many more than in any previous era.

hard for me to understand the term "agnostic" meaning tbat something is unknowable.

But in your opinion, this thing that is unknowable ["god"] exists? Or doesn't?

anything and everything is unknowable if one doubts one's senses. for agnostic to mean that, one has to accept rules about what knowledge is valid and what is not. most people dont do that thoroughly, i think.

This doesn't make sense to me. How do you think people got to the moon, eradicated small pox, and psychologically manipulated millions of facebook users to support nationalist agendas if knowledge is impossible?

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2018, 11:32:16 AM »
those are the old practices-- church polity. the liberals have abandoned it, the evangelicals have distorted it to conform to protestanism.

Yep. Every single Protestant sect believes it's making the right corrections the previous ones failed to see. Everyong things the previous ones have somehow abandoned or distorted the "real faith," and they alone know how to get back to it. Jesus is lucky to have them, lol!


That chart tells me religion is a perfect example of evolution.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2018, 11:48:43 AM »
. . . language is used much more fluidly that actual definitions allow for.

definitions for definable things are certainly useful. but trying to force people into pre existing categories says more about tbe forcer than the forced. belief, non belief and so on are generally pretty complex, and people who require neat categories for tbe human world miss most of that, i tbink.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2018, 12:04:20 PM »
But in your opinion, this thing that is unknowable ["god"] exists? Or doesn't?

can't tell. tbe evidence i used to consider adequate isnt compelling to me now. at the moment i have no belief one way or the other. i have no evidence, so all i can truthfully assert is ignorance.

This doesn't make sense to me. How do you think people got to the moon, eradicated small pox, and psychologically manipulated millions of facebook users to support nationalist agendas if knowledge is impossible?

how did tbe vikings navigate with a magnetic compass if tbey ascribed the movment to sea gods? how did we manage a mechanical world before quantum theory showef it was wrong? how did we make cement before we understood chemistry?

someone who has a hardcore disbelief in gods would reject all evidence of a god's existence, including his senses. i once asked one of those what be would think if a miracle similar to those of the tanach took place, witb him as tbe subject. he told me tbat he would consider himself insane.

so with him, a genuine god would be completely unknowable, because there was no evidence at all that could change his mind. his preexisting rules for how reality worked limited his ability to process any phenomena tbat didnt fit his rules.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 12:06:33 PM by kevinagain »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2018, 12:31:10 PM »
That chart tells me religion is a perfect example of evolution.

The God Virus does a fantastic job of explaining just how religion evolves, as a memetic virus specifically. The laws of natural selection can be found in religion just as readily as can be found in grasses.

Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2018, 12:39:34 PM »
how did tbe vikings navigate with a magnetic compass if tbey ascribed the movment to sea gods? how did we manage a mechanical world before quantum theory showef it was wrong? how did we make cement before we understood chemistry?

someone who has a hardcore disbelief in gods would reject all evidence of a god's existence, including his senses. i once asked one of those what be would think if a miracle similar to those of the tanach took place, witb him as tbe subject. he told me tbat he would consider himself insane.

so with him, a genuine god would be completely unknowable, because there was no evidence at all that could change his mind. his preexisting rules for how reality worked limited his ability to process any phenomena tbat didnt fit his rules.

You're conflating inaccurate information with no information. Vikings navigated the seas because the information they had was accurate enough to be reliable. Attribution to the gods eventually fell away as it was not relevant after all. Lots of irrelevant assumptions fall away.

If there was any actual evidence for god, it would be interesting to see who rejects it. We can see theists reject evidence for evolution, astronomy, neurology, biology, etc etc etc in order to maintain their theistic beliefs, but we have never encountered an event in which evidence for god has been rejected. Non theists reject claims, not evidence, simply because evidence has never been presented.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2018, 01:12:20 PM »
the question had to do with whether tbe existence of god was knowable or unknowable, and as such whether "agnostic" meant tbat. this is what i said:

Quote from: kevinagain on Today at 11:28:05 AM
anything and everything is unknowable if one doubts one's senses. for agnostic to mean that, one has to accept rules about what knowledge is valid and what is not. most people dont do that thoroughly, i think.

if you took an agnostic who claimed that tbe question of god was unknowable and took him to tbe judgement seat, walked him around the new jerusalem, and introduced him to jehovah personally, and he *still* thought tbat vod was unknowable, then you would have someone for whom tbe term agnostic has no genuine meaning.

i'm agnoztic, because i have no firm knowledge eitber way.

but tbese are just words and fairly limited definitions. i think if you want to know what someone believes, youre better off talking about it than looking for tbe rivht preexistkng category.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2018, 02:30:36 PM »
i dont follow a religion, velkyn. i'm a non-theist.

are you a quaker?  do you believe in this "spirit"? 
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2018, 02:37:57 PM »
i dont follow a religion, velkyn. i'm a non-theist.

are you a quaker?  do you believe in this "spirit"?

yes, velkyn. i'm a quaker.

as for the spirit, i don't believe in the holy ghost, as theist friends define it.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2018, 06:43:58 PM »
^^^You keep skirting around the question and I wonder what your point is. Are you saying you don't rely on your senses at all? Except for your sight and sound and balance and temperature and the senses you do rely on? Or are you saying you don't rely on your senses when it comes to the possibility of a supernatural reality? Or something else?

Meanwhile, you are ignoring knowledge that does exist, knowledge regarding the creation of the world, the age of the world, how and under what circumstances people get sick, what influences behavior, efficiency of prayer (or lack thereof), the reliability of observation and measurement of the laws of physics, etc. Do you distrust the validity of this knowledge or do you believe one must have 100% knowledge of a thing to consider a claim credible?

Why Quakerism? What do you see is the function and purpose of the Quaker Meeting, and what do you think it provides that other belief systems don't?

yes, velkyn. i'm a quaker.

as for the spirit, i don't believe in the holy ghost, as theist friends define it.

See what I mean about skirting around the question? It's if you're afraid to give an answer in hopes of avoiding criticism about that answer. Or as Greta Christina suggests, hoping to get the atheist seal of approval so you won't be associated with "those" people who believe "weird" stuff. So how do you define the spirit, if not "the holy ghost as theist friends define it"?

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2018, 07:24:37 PM »
^^^You keep skirting around the question and I wonder what your point is.

Ditto.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2018, 07:35:33 PM »
albeto, what in the world are you talking about? your make assumptions and conclusions about things i haven't mentioned. i answer the questions put to me, as time allows and as my interest permits. if you have a specific conversation in mind, make it clear and i will answer you as clearly as i understand you. velkyn can speak for herself.

your post appears to have two questions:

Why Quakerism? What do you see is the function and purpose of the Quaker Meeting, and what do you think it provides that other belief systems don't?

So how do you define the spirit, if not "the holy ghost as theist friends define it"?

a quaker meeting is a meeting for worship. theists who attend it listen to the leadings of the holy spirit, may or may not speak as they are led, and leave with a renewed sense of unity that allows them to act as a community with greater cohesiveness than otherwise. as a non-theist, i participate because i feel similar connections with the people and with the meeting without needing to search for a supernatural explanation. i'm not interested in theology, and so i take the existential support that i find there. there's more to it than that, but i don't like long posts.

as for the spirit, i don't define it. it's a theological concept that i don't believe in. if they were ever inclined to theorize, the earlier friends would have stated the holy spirit to be the logos, the greek term for the active force animating the universe, as discussed in john1 and elsewhere in the greek new testament. the spirit was active through the agency of the Light, which roughly corresponded to the protestant idea of grace, but was a tangible influence that emanated from god and was received according to the differing measures that individuals possessed.

there's a lot more to the Light, but it's not something that i find credible.






 
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2018, 07:37:45 PM »
^^^You keep skirting around the question and I wonder what your point is.

Ditto.

beats me. i don't have a clue what your point is either.

if you think i'm avoiding something somebody else asked, ask it yourself so i can identify what you're talking about.

the fewer words the better.
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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2018, 08:05:38 PM »
Back when I was a lad, a guy at work started Raja Yoga. I think they sat around staring into each other's eyes and seeing the light.

http://www.yogaworld.org/raja2.htm

However, he started talking about this chap who was the most impure soul, and that the universe was on a cycle of 5000 years, and we were supposedly entering the end times, where the circle started again. I wondered how you would distinguish seeing the light from your own imagination. That link touches on it, but essentially ignores the problem.

The Quaker meeting seems to be verging on mindfulness meditation, which gets good recommendations for lowering depression and increasing various health factors.
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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2018, 08:08:38 PM »
^^^You keep skirting around the question and I wonder what your point is.

Ditto.

beats me. i don't have a clue what your point is either.

if you think i'm avoiding something somebody else asked, ask it yourself so i can identify what you're talking about.

the fewer words the better.

Nope, I've lost interest. I can see where this is gong and I just don't care enough to participate.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2018, 08:44:38 PM »
a quaker meeting is a meeting for worship. theists who attend it listen to the leadings of the holy spirit, may or may not speak as they are led, and leave with a renewed sense of unity that allows them to act as a community with greater cohesiveness than otherwise. as a non-theist, i participate because i feel similar connections with the people and with the meeting without needing to search for a supernatural explanation. i'm not interested in theology, and so i take the existential support that i find there. there's more to it than that, but i don't like long posts.

as for the spirit, i don't define it. it's a theological concept that i don't believe in. if they were ever inclined to theorize, the earlier friends would have stated the holy spirit to be the logos, the greek term for the active force animating the universe, as discussed in john1 and elsewhere in the greek new testament. the spirit was active through the agency of the Light, which roughly corresponded to the protestant idea of grace, but was a tangible influence that emanated from god and was received according to the differing measures that individuals possessed.

there's a lot more to the Light, but it's not something that i find credible.

Thanks. That's what I was wondering.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2018, 08:48:17 AM »
i dont follow a religion, velkyn. i'm a non-theist.

are you a quaker?  do you believe in this "spirit"?

yes, velkyn. i'm a quaker.

as for the spirit, i don't believe in the holy ghost, as theist friends define it.

so, the most important thing that defines Quakers, their religious beliefs, are not what you accept.  This is why I find that you calling yourself a Quaker to be weird.  Might as well call the meeting place a club house for people that you like for reasons that aren't religoius, and where you spend time not doing what they are doing.
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Offline kevinagain

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Offline albeto

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2018, 12:09:55 PM »
so, the most important thing that defines Quakers, their religious beliefs, are not what you accept.  This is why I find that you calling yourself a Quaker to be weird.  Might as well call the meeting place a club house for people that you like for reasons that aren't religoius, and where you spend time not doing what they are doing.

Yep. Then again, there are cultural Catholics and people have become accustomed to that. I think xian communities are learning that if they want to keep their customer base, they have one of two options. One is to double down on the rules and regulations. Some people really like the black and white approach. It makes life seem simple. All the hard decisions are made for them and they can pretend to be in the care of an invisible sugar sky daddy. The problem with this is those people are the ones who are exposed for hypocrisy and intolerance. Younger people are increasingly put off by hypocrisy and intolerance.

The other is to become more vague, refusing to make any declaration of faith or morality lest society in general decide it's not cool after all (like LGBTQ issues). Xian gods will eventually fade away as the Norse, Greek, Roman gods, and European fairies all did, preserved only for holiday cards, invoked at weddings and funerals.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2018, 12:29:06 PM »
here's some reading for you, velkyn.

enjoy.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Quakers&ved=2ahUKEwj8m-ywlPvZAhVPylMKHcptCqoQFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0-kPNcvHFTG10HZh-5Wgzb

yup and it makes no more sense there either, especially when you tout being part of conservative Quakers. I'm guessing you are just hiding your nonsense, unwilling to admit to what you actually believe, and thinking you are clever for doing that.  Been there, done that a lot of times before, as Albeto mentions, that a lot of theists end up with the vague nonsense so they don't have to acknowledge that their claims are are baseless at best and completely wrong at worst.  One doesn't need Quakerism to be peaceful, kind etc.  That's pretty much humanism, without the religion.   

Now, you claimed to be a non-theist.  Wikipedia has an entry on that too, and it's essentially a meaningless term since no one can agree on what it means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism    If one is going with what the prefix "non-" means, then this should simply mean not a theist, aka atheist, (a- prefix means "not) but that's not what is claimed.  What you actually mean by it is anyone's guess.   
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:30:40 PM by velkyn »
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: Why Worship?
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2018, 12:40:36 PM »
lol

you really can't depart from your script, can you, velkyn?

since you have it all figured out, there's nothing for me to say.

let me know if you ever come up with something new, and we can move on.
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