Author Topic: Let's brainstorm on God for realz  (Read 2088 times)

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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2018, 12:31:45 PM »
I sure do appreciate you explaining how you used the word "know" when it was me that used it. I asked you how you "know" a dying theist feels no comfort. I'm calling that an unanswered question, but I really like the way you dodged it. ;)

I'm wondering if you interpreted my comment to suggest no dying theist ever feels comfort from their faith, but I'm not. [ETA: link to my comment] I'm suggesting that we can see an example of xians not really believing what they say they believe when an observable dichotomy exists between what they say they believe, and what beliefs their behaviors imply.

I do not understand how you speak of Christianity in general when there is so many different sects. Maybe you're speaking of the buybull in general, and what it says. Even still, I cannot recall a verse that says/implies to celebrate the deaths of children/adolescents. I think the parents and community may get little comfort imagining those children in Heaven. If you look to the buybull to make sense of what you said, it doesn't add up. I say that because the buybull says the dead will rise when Jesus comes again. If you're in a Christian sect that believes that, there is plenty of reason for grief.

I speak of xianity in general the same way I speak of America in general or women in general or homeschoolers in general. The context of the conversation is an important variable. In this conversation, the context is of mainstream American xians who are the most well-known for sharing the operations and mechanics of the faith.

It doesn't matter how a child dies, my point is there is no biblical text that says to celebrate the untimely death of a child/adolescent.

No, but there are sections that talk about how much greater heaven is than earth, and that there will be no more suffering in heaven, and no more pain, and no more tears. There are all kinds of sections that talk about suffering on earth and how xians shouldn't even consider their home to be their actual home. There are all kinds of places that talk about unavoidable conflict, sin, discord, suffering, that this is not only normal for the human experience, but that it cannot be avoided.

Dot #1: Life is suffering.
Dot #2: Heaven is paradise.
Dot #3: Death comes to us all.
Connective link: Better to be in heaven than on earth.

It's the same crap xians give when they are faced with the starving children in Africa: Life is suffering, life is temporary. Problem solved. Only, the solution doesn't apply to their children because they know reality doesn't support this fantasy and it's personal now. It's easy to offer platitudes to settle one's conscience when the suffering person isn't looking them in the eye.

Yes, sadly, I've been to too many funerals. I have also been to celebration of life events. That's how I, as a believer at the time, said farewell to my mother. My grief was for my loss, NOT her escape from this life to the next. I expect other theists feel this way about it.

I suspect you're right. I suspect when it comes to burying people who have died suddenly and violently, there is NEVER a reference to how glad everyone is that the person has "moved on." I think that's because when someone succumbs to a slow, predictable, and painful end, death is seen as merciful. When someone succumbs to the violent aggression of a mass-murderer, death is seen as unfair. You're right that according to the xian religion, it doesn't matter how the person dies (unless you're catholic, then there's martyrdom and purgatory and all kinds of stuff that complicates the equation), what matters is the person is believed to be waking up in eternal paradise. My point is, xians sure don't act like it. They act like that isn't what they believe at all. They act like the rest of us who do not buy into this heavenly ponzi scheme.

You are still ignoring the sects that believe you lay in your grave until the second coming. Not all Christians believe you go straight to Heaven when you die. It's called the Rapture, when the dead in Christ shall rise.

Those differences aren't relevant in this context.

Enough about death. I can agree that if believers believe what the buybull says they would have no cares for this world. They would be like the lily that does not plant nor sow, but are fed by the Master who watches them grow. They have the natural instinct to survive and thrive, just like we do. There's probably a verse that contradicts that one, but I cannot think of it. There's that part about caring for the earth in Genesis. I know Protestants have a strong work ethic, it must come out of that buybull somewhere, but I dunno.

Lilies of the field indeed. We should be seeing a hell of a lot more people walking the earth like Cain, barefoot and without a single thing to his name, offering to be a helpful hand wherever needed. Or maybe more like Johnny Appleseed, skipping about from community to community planting seeds. But we don't. We see a hell of a lot more people like Mike Pence, working hard to punish groups that don't conform to conventional GOP/xian moral standards. We see a lot more people like Ted Haggard who preaches against the very behaviors they enjoy in secret.

At the end of the day, I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. I can only speak to the few people I know, and my own experience SPAGing.

But at the end of the day, you can pretty readily *assume* what's going on in other people's minds, precisely because you know how SPAG works. If you recognize SPAG, you are assuming intent, motivation, and belief based on stated claims and follow-up behavior. You're applying intent against reality and watching the excuses offered when that cognitive dissonance pops up.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 01:29:19 PM by albeto »

Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2018, 12:39:17 PM »
The person, jetson, that I asked this question to did say you have to go outside the religion. It is a valid question to jetson.

I don't know why this matters.

I do hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I think it's reckless to challenge Christians to celebrate or desire the deaths of children/adolescents to get to Heaven as soon as you can. I'm pretty sure when and if they do, many here supporting this argument will have reasons why they should not according to scripture, tradition, and statements by the greater Christian community.

I don't understand where you're coming from or what you mean. I'm not challenging xians to celebrate anything. I'm identifying the fundamental lack of faith in the very beliefs xians want so desperately to be, and claim are true.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2018, 06:51:18 AM »
I smote the wrong post. I meant to smite her other post where she announced putting me on ignore.

I did NOT smite Jag for spite. She got that for making assertion about me without supplying evidence.

That's the same standard I am held to. If I can do it, so can she.

From my perspective she is being childish. All I did was disagree with her about forgiveness, and how that helps people move on. I argued the negative. That forgiveness is overrated.

I did NOT use personal experience in that argument. Not even one time.

I will smite anybody on this forum that makes an assertion about me or anybody else without evidence. That's what the smite says she got it for except the last one. When I fix it, it will say coward.

I did not know you could smite the same post twice either. Mods need to fix that.

I'm confident the mods will sustain my smites. I got moderated for the thing I gave her a smite for. Assertion without evidence.

You take your concern for Jag, and explain to her if she is going to make an assertion she needs evidence to support it.

I see Jag as a coward. A yellow-bellied chicken liver. That's what the last smite was for. 1. She would not answer the question, were the people in that forgiveness link atheists. (The topic is what do atheists need gods for)
2. Rather than admit her mistake she attacked me. That's a major dodge and intellectual cowardess.

That being said, why should I be mad? I won the argument because I got the last word.

I've said it before and I'll say it again I have little to NO TOLERANCE for double-standards.

Quit trying to read my mind.

I will get the mods to fix the smite to the wrong post, then I will smite the right post.

I am not a bully. That is being projected. 1. I'm not the one telling somebody what and whom they can smite. 2. I'm not the one that ran away from an intellectual discussion by attacking my opponent, and blaming her for it.

I am using a forum tool to inform someone they are not living up to the standards of this forum.

Raise your argument, not your voice, not your insults.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2018, 06:58:30 AM »
Junebug, that last smite you gave Jag is blatantly spite spiting.

I understand your feeling hurt/upset/angry if this is the case, and sympathise if you are, but this is not an appropriate way of expressing that hurt and anger. Plus, just as it’s your right to put people here on ignore if you see good reason to it’s also her right to do so.

This is bullying/abusive treatment, even if you are doing it in response to perceived insults etc. 

And yes I know this is off topic, but as this is the thread involved I made an exception.

If this doesn’t stop (I’m sorry) but I will be bringing it up with the moderators (outside of this thread).

I didn't know it was possible for the same user to upvote or smite a post more than once, but I've now learned it's possible since I noticed JB smited one of Jag's posts twice.


JB, I think we all understand if you're hurt or upset about something, but smiting other users isn't the best way to go about it. It might consider others to think of you as volatile and reactive, which will have people less-inclined to engage in conversation with you.

I would have to care about Jag's baseless assertions to be upset or hurt.

Did she provide evidence for her assertions? If not her smites are valid and sound.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2018, 11:30:47 AM »
From my perspective she is being childish. All I did was disagree with her about forgiveness, and how that helps people move on. I argued the negative. That forgiveness is overrated.

This doesn't make sense in light of your recent comments about not asserting what's going on in other people's minds. Are you still arguing that forgiveness is overrated in general, or now for you specifically?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2018, 12:43:48 PM »

From my perspective she is being childish. All I did was disagree with her about forgiveness, and how that helps people move on. I argued the negative. That forgiveness is overrated.

This doesn't make sense in light of your recent comments about not asserting what's going on in other people's minds. Are you still arguing that forgiveness is overrated in general, or now for you specifically?

You're going to have to make a better case than just mere assertion.

How does it not make sense? Connect the dots please.

There is no mind reading in that post. I am describing a behavior, not how anybody felt.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Am I allowed to read my own mind? :o I did say from my perspective. :P I will highlight that for you.

I did not say Jag is thinking like a child. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That argument is over, unless somebody else wants to give it a whirl; Jag quit.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2018, 03:47:01 PM »
You're going to have to make a better case than just mere assertion.

I'm not making any assertion. I'm asking a question. It has nothing to do with Jag or your smiting, by the way. It has to do with earlier comments.

How does it not make sense?

Because your comments conflict with each other and I'm wondering where you are now.

Connect the dots please.

Sure. Here are a few examples of comments you'd made that reflect one approach, in opposition to your stated approach later:

Christians do seem to be forgiving....There is no reason for an atheist to forgive. [The first is a statement of opinion, but the second reads as a statement of fact; erroneously so, as it is also a statement of opinion. In the context of this post, it is erroneous precisely because you're assuming to speak for atheists in general, as if you know how atheists feel and what we believe.]
I'll tell you what helps you move on: punishment. Family support and love too. [Presumes you know how others feel and what they believe.]
Not love fer sure.[Assuming the feelings and motivations of people even while ignoring existing evidence to the contrary.]
I want them punished. Forgiving them is not even an option. I want JUSTICE. [Ignoring the incongruity of the first and last sentences for the moment, this is a statement of opinion that seems to best illustrate your assumption of what others think and feel. In other words, you are essentially arguing that because you desire a certain thing, others must naturally have the same desires, or would if they had the same information as you. It's an example of your feelings and opinions being applied as universal.]
The kind of forgiveness you speak of works hand in hand with belief. [Assumes you know what people think or feel or what beliefs they rely on when forgiving others.]
They may have love in their heart but the actual behavior of kicking out your kid because they are gay is not LOVING fer sure. [This statement assumes you know what other people are thinking and feeling and you're stating they are objectively wrong.]
You are literally saying that a mother whose son was murdered seeks vengeance not justice. [Only Jag didn't literally say that, or figuratively, or even imply that. This reads like you assume you know what she's thinking, only she's not articulating it. I have to say there are few people I find are as articulate and clear as Jag, so this is another head-scratcher.]
My point is that forgiveness is easier for theists because they believe in divine justice. That is more like vengeance. [Lots of assumptions about the thoughts and beliefs of theists in general.]
Atheist can damn sure accept tragedy because we don't believe in the supernatural. Atheist realize the universe is cold and heartless and no amount of praying will change that. [Are you speaking for all atheists here? It sure sounds like it, and yet it doesn't represent my thoughts at all.]
I think I've explained damn well why I agree with Screwtape and albeto that forgiveness is overrated. [You're assuming my opinion. You're wrong.]

But then you seem to change your tune:
I am not prepared to assert that I know what is going on in the minds of billions of people's minds.
At the end of the day, I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. I can only speak to the few people I know, and my own experience SPAGing.


These sentiments are in opposition to the first comments you made, comments that reflect an assumption of the thoughts and beliefs of people in general. I'm asking which is it? Have you changed your mind, or do you still think you know what others are thinking?

I ask because of your comment, "All I did was disagree with [Jag] about forgiveness, and how that helps people move on." So once again you're arguing that forgiveness does not work for people as well as "moving on," despite people claiming it does, despite people telling you personally that it does. So I'm curious where you stand on this because it seems to me you're playing both sides of the court here.



Edited for brevity
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 05:12:45 PM by albeto »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM »
You're going to have to make a better case than just mere assertion.

I'm not making any assertion. I'm asking a question. It has nothing to do with Jag or your smiting, by the way. It has to do with earlier comments.

Quote from: albeto
This doesn't make sense in light of your recent comments about not asserting what's going on in other people's minds.

^^That is an assertion.^^

How does it not make sense?

Quote
Because your comments conflict with each other and I'm wondering where you are now.

Connect the dots please.


Quote
Sure. Here are a few examples of comments you'd made that reflect one approach, in opposition to your stated approach later:

Christians do seem to be forgiving....There is no reason for an atheist to forgive. [The first is a statement of opinion, but the second reads as a statement of fact; erroneously so, as it is also a statement of opinion. In the context of this post, it is erroneous precisely because you're assuming to speak for atheists in general, as if you know how atheists feel and what we believe.]

Here is the post you are referring to. Later on you will see I was persuaded to change my mind somewhat, to include forgiveness of family and friends due to survival purposes.
I want to speak a bit further about forgiveness. Christians do seem to be forgiving. They forgave Jimmy Swaggert for committing adultery with prostitutes. His ministry is booming. They forgave Jim Baker for embezzling their charitable donations. They forgive Trump with all his unrighteousness.

Jesus mandates forgiveness in the buy-bull.

There is no reason for an atheist to forgive.

When taken in context, this was after stating a mandate by Jesus. In context, atheists have no mandate to forgive. I should have stated it that way.


Quote
I'll tell you what helps you move on: punishment. Family support and love too. [Presumes you know how others feel and what they believe.]

I supported that claim with this: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728315.html#msg728315 and this http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728379.html#msg728379


Quote
Not love fer sure.[Assuming the feelings and motivations of people even while ignoring existing evidence to the contrary.]

I was describing a behavior. We already been through this.

Quote
I want them punished. Forgiving them is not even an option. I want JUSTICE. [Ignoring the incongruity of the first and last sentences for the moment, this is a statement of opinion that seems to best illustrate your assumption of what others think and feel. In other words, you are essentially arguing that because you desire a certain thing, others must naturally have the same desires, or would if they had the same information as you. It's an example of your feelings and opinions being applied as universal.]

I used I both times. That's not reading someone else's mind, it's reading my own.

Quote
The kind of forgiveness you speak of works hand in hand with belief. [Assumes you know what people think or feel or what beliefs they rely on when forgiving others.]

This is obviously rhetorical. I need links.

Quote
They may have love in their heart but the actual behavior of kicking out your kid because they are gay is not LOVING fer sure. [This statement assumes you know what other people are thinking and feeling and you're stating they are objectively wrong.]

Did you not posit they have love in their hearts? This was a response to you. Will you provide the link of your post I was replying to please? Did I not answer you by saying this? You forgot to put "out" after kid. That's why quoting is better.  ;) What a fucking mess this is.  &)

Quote
You are literally saying that a mother whose son was murdered seeks vengeance not justice. [Only Jag didn't literally say that, or figuratively, or even imply that. This reads like you assume you know what she's thinking, only she's not articulating it. I have to say there are few people I find are as articulate and clear as Jag, so this is another head-scratcher.]

Jag replaced my word justice with vengeance here:

But you can't appreciate forgiving others, because humans make mistakes?
Vengeance my dear, not justice. You're talking about vengeance.

I replaced my word justice with her word vengeance to show that I meant justice not vengeance. Who is really guilty of mind reading here? Here is the whole post in context. One I got a smite for BTW. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728343.html#msg728343

Quote
My point is that forgiveness is easier for theists because they believe in divine justice. That is more like vengeance. [Lots of assumptions about the thoughts and beliefs of theists in general.]
Atheist can damn sure accept tragedy because we don't believe in the supernatural. Atheist realize the universe is cold and heartless and no amount of praying will change that. [Are you speaking for all atheists here? It sure sounds like it, and yet it doesn't represent my thoughts at all.]

Are you saying theists do not believe in divine justice? That it's not easier to forgive when you consider a person that did a terrible unjust thing to you is gonna get it from God when he/she dies?

I have to admit, That's a fucking mess right there. How about links? Quotes?

Please explain why you disagree the universe is heartless. Do you think it has a heart?
Quote
I think I've explained damn well why I agree with Screwtape and albeto that forgiveness is overrated. [You're assuming my opinion. You're wrong.]

I did not assume anything see here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728296.html#msg728296 You agreed with screwtape who said forgiveness is overrated.

Yea, I'm going to post the whole damn thing.

Forgiveness is overrated, and I don’t say that to be flippant. I think there are some thing that ought no be forgiven. 

I agree with you. I don't think it's necessary to forgive in order to move on, which seems to be the excuse xians use for guilting their own to forgive people who have wronged and even traumatized them. In reality, I think the whole forgiveness mandate functions to enforce subservience in the lay population in general.

There's another self-fulfilling prophesy for you to consider, junebug: Xians are taught that if they don't forgive they can't move on. Then they get hung up with whatever event or events harmed them and they can't move on until they forgive.

It's a clever form of manipulation, I think. It's subtle, pervasive, insidious and creates a kind of self-policing that makes the individual comply because they punish themselves if they don't. Which addresses Jetson's OP. If god isn't necessary to move on, then what exactly does he do with regard to comforting people?


Quote
But then you seem to change your tune:
I am not prepared to assert that I know what is going on in the minds of billions of people's minds.
At the end of the day, I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. I can only speak to the few people I know, and my own experience SPAGing.

I do not think you have made the case that I try to read other people's mind. JB is not guilty. You have not met your burden of proof. No links, no quotes. The defense rests and asks for a dismissal for lack of evidence.

Quote
These sentiments are in opposition to the first comments you made, comments that reflect an assumption of the thoughts and beliefs of people in general. I'm asking which is it? Have you changed your mind, or do you still think you know what others are thinking?

I contend I have not asserted knowing the thoughts of others. You should have used links and quotes for this albeto. The prosecution has not met the burden of proof.

I ask you to reconsider after reading my case above. Thanks.

Quote
I ask because of your comment, "All I did was disagree with [Jag] about forgiveness, and how that helps people move on." So once again you're arguing that forgiveness does not work for people as well as "moving on," despite people claiming it does, despite people telling you personally that it does.

Please do share some links to atheists on this forum telling me how forgiveness personally helped them move on.


Quote
So I'm curious where you stand on this because it seems to me you're playing both sides of the court here.


Perhaps that is some confirmation bias you're experiencing.


Quote
Edited for brevity
yea right!


This may take longer than time permits but I will address some of your points. I have 1 hour. I do have to say actual links to those posts would help.

Could not possibly edit for brevity.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2018, 11:25:20 AM »
I do not think you have made the case that I try to read other people's mind. JB is not guilty. You have not met your burden of proof. No links, no quotes. The defense rests and asks for a dismissal for lack of evidence.

From using words incorrectly, to misconstruing grammatical concepts, your entire post is confusing and feels manic to me. I just wanted to know if at this point are you presuming to know what other people think and feel or not. You say not. That's all I asked for.

Please do share some links to atheists on this forum telling me how forgiveness personally helped them move on.

No. It's a red herring, and it looks like this thread has gone into Frantic Mode enough as it is.

Offline Jag

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2018, 01:55:35 PM »
You're going to have to make a better case than just mere assertion.

I'm not making any assertion.

From the Meriam-Webster site

Definition of assert
1 a : to state or declare positively and often forcefully or aggressively

    The suspect continued to assert his innocence.

b : to compel or demand acceptance or recognition of (something, such as one's authority)

    … the confrontations that inevitably occur [between orangutans] when several males try to assert dominance …—NationalGeographic.com

    Wallace asserted control early—shutting down both candidates when they tried to talk over one another, and shushing the audience when it reacted too audibly. —Glenn Thrush

2 a : to demonstrate the existence of

    He wished to vindicate himself in some way, to assert his manhood. —James Joyce



Here is an example of precisely what albeto is saying in later posts.

If I recall correctly, the first smite from junebug to me relative to this conversation accused me of making an assertion without evidence. This is the post (found here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728351.html#msg728351

I said:
Ok, looks like we're starting to repeat the standard pattern. I'm out.

Using the provided definition of assert, this certainly doesn't qualify. If a statement that explicitly says "it looks like" is an assertion, then we all need to stop talking, forever. Because using junebug's personal interpretation, speaking is asserting, giving voice to an opinion is asserting, and a simple observation of "nope, I'm not doing this again" is cause for a fucking meltdown.

Please, someone, find a goddamned dictionary and give her the link. This is ridiculous. She misuses words then freaks the fuck out when someone says something. She should be perfectly capable of taking some Thor hammering responsibility for herself and just LOOK IT UP and critically consider what she finds. And if she's not capable of such, that's an entirely different problem, and FAR beyond the purpose or scope of this website.

I'm done being the target of her fucking abusive bullshit temper tantrums. She's vicious and petty and has been given more latitude than most theists here, and she STILL fucking complains.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2018, 08:34:35 AM »
You're going to have to make a better case than just mere assertion.

I'm not making any assertion.

From the Meriam-Webster site

Definition of assert
1 a : to state or declare positively and often forcefully or aggressively

    The suspect continued to assert his innocence.

b : to compel or demand acceptance or recognition of (something, such as one's authority)

    … the confrontations that inevitably occur [between orangutans] when several males try to assert dominance …—NationalGeographic.com

    Wallace asserted control early—shutting down both candidates when they tried to talk over one another, and shushing the audience when it reacted too audibly. —Glenn Thrush

2 a : to demonstrate the existence of

    He wished to vindicate himself in some way, to assert his manhood. —James Joyce



Here is an example of precisely what albeto is saying in later posts.

If I recall correctly, the first smite from junebug to me relative to this conversation accused me of making an assertion without evidence. This is the post (found here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30901.msg728351.html#msg728351

I said:
Ok, looks like we're starting to repeat the standard pattern. I'm out.
Using the provided definition of assert, this certainly doesn't qualify. If a statement that explicitly says "it looks like" is an assertion, then we all need to stop talking, forever. Because using junebug's personal interpretation, speaking is asserting, giving voice to an opinion is asserting, and a simple observation of "nope, I'm not doing this again" is cause for a fucking meltdown.

Please, someone, find a goddamned dictionary and give her the link. This is ridiculous. She misuses words then freaks the fuck out when someone says something. She should be perfectly capable of taking some Thor hammering responsibility for herself and just LOOK IT UP and critically consider what she finds. And if she's not capable of such, that's an entirely different problem, and FAR beyond the purpose or scope of this website.

I'm done being the target of her fucking abusive bullshit temper tantrums. She's vicious and petty and has been given more latitude than most theists here, and she STILL fucking complains.

Using your definition you made an assertion, unless you did not mean it. If you did not mean it, why say it?

Yea I'm vicious alright. I will tear your argument apart if it's flawed. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Did you STRONGLY believe it was true? OR are you admitting that you just a little itty bitty tiny bit thought it was true. How true did you think it was?

The only person pitching a temper tantrum is YOU. applause, applause, applause crowd cheers

I like Vocabulary.com's definition better:
To assert is to state with force. So if someone makes an assertion, they’re not just trying out an idea — they really mean it. An assertion can also be an act that seems to make a statement without words. When your dog urinates in multiple places up and down your block, he's making an assertion of his dominance (also called "marking") over his "territory."

N. the act of affirming or asserting or stating something https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/assertion

You have marked your territory.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So...if you did not really mean it, why say it? It was not a statement of fact JAG? Anybody?

You attacked me when you stated without evidence; "Ok, looks like we're starting to repeat the standard pattern. I'm out."

Go ahead and show in this thread or any other I've participated in since being removed from moderated status that I have repeated an old pattern.

You have still not provided evidence, so it's like it doesn't exist. There's evidence of absence.

If it's not an assertion/statement/claim, what the fuck is it? A god damn guess? Guesses have no business in a debate. An opinion, it was not stated as such? It was matter of fact. On this forum facts are to be supported with evidence.

I get it, getting a smite from me triggers you. I had no idea you had mental illness.

You poor little victim. I feel so fucking bad for you right now, I want to cry. Somebody give her a big hug. 

How about synonyms:

Synonyms of assertion
1 a solemn and often public declaration of the truth or existence of something

Synonyms of assertion

affirmation, avouchment, avowal, claim, declaration, insistence, profession, protestation
Words Related to assertion

allegation

announcement, proclamation, pronouncement

argument, justification, rationalization, reason

confirmation, reaffirmation, reconfirmation, vindication


You provided no evidence for whatever you want to call it. Your claim either exists or it doesn't. Without evidence, the claim doesn't exist.

God damn bunch of hyperbole. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Will somebody please define what that ____________ was?  It certainly did not say; in my opinion. So don't put that in there. If any of those synonyms fit in that blank...well Jag made an assertion without evidence, justified by a smite.

What you said is not factual. You seem to be admitting that.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2018, 08:40:26 AM »
I do not think you have made the case that I try to read other people's mind. JB is not guilty. You have not met your burden of proof. No links, no quotes. The defense rests and asks for a dismissal for lack of evidence.

From using words incorrectly, to misconstruing grammatical concepts, your entire post is confusing and feels manic to me. I just wanted to know if at this point are you presuming to know what other people think and feel or not. You say not. That's all I asked for.

I reject your claim due to lack of evidence.

Please do share some links to atheists on this forum telling me how forgiveness personally helped them move on.


No. It's a red herring, and it looks like this thread has gone into Frantic Mode enough as it is.

It's not a red herring albeto. I reject your claim due to lack of evidence.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2018, 09:47:00 AM »
It's really disappointing when I make one of my infrequent-of-late stops here to see what's going on, see a new thread with an intriguing title and multiple pages of response, and find that over 3/4 of it is arguments over hurt feelings and people getting defensive.

As far as the OP, I think God is mostly just a cover for lazy thinking/inaction. Can't fathom how/why something came to be? Goddidit! Feeling overwhelmed by circumstances? God'llfixit! Someone else in dire straits? Thoughts'n'prayers! Even for those happy occasions where other people might have been instrumental in bringing about a good result, it's ThankyouJesus!

And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 09:48:50 AM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2018, 09:52:31 AM »
It's really disappointing when I make one of my infrequent-of-late stops here to see what's going on, see a new thread with an intriguing title and multiple pages of response, and find that over 3/4 of it is arguments over hurt feelings and people getting defensive.

As far as the OP, I think God is mostly just a cover for lazy thinking/inaction. Can't fathom how/why something came to be? Goddidit! Feeling overwhelmed by circumstances? God'llfixit! Someone else in dire straits? Thoughts'n'prayers! Even for those happy occasions where other people might have been instrumental in bringing about a good result, it's ThankyouJesus!

And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.

and that last is the biggest problem with religion.  It requires a level of willful ignorance no matter how conservative or liberal your theology is.   Magic doesn't exist but they must believe in magic. 
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Offline Jag

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2018, 10:10:04 AM »
And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.

Nailed it.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2018, 05:43:28 AM »
It's really disappointing when I make one of my infrequent-of-late stops here to see what's going on, see a new thread with an intriguing title and multiple pages of response, and find that over 3/4 of it is arguments over hurt feelings and people getting defensive.

As far as the OP, I think God is mostly just a cover for lazy thinking/inaction. Can't fathom how/why something came to be? Goddidit! Feeling overwhelmed by circumstances? God'llfixit! Someone else in dire straits? Thoughts'n'prayers! Even for those happy occasions where other people might have been instrumental in bringing about a good result, it's ThankyouJesus!

And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.

Sadly, I think conditioning/brain washing effects can be largely relevant too. Once it has its hooks sunk deep into someone’s psychological belief system, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to reverse things imho.

And agreeing with that last.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #132 on: March 02, 2018, 05:43:55 AM »
It's really disappointing when I make one of my infrequent-of-late stops here to see what's going on, see a new thread with an intriguing title and multiple pages of response, and find that over 3/4 of it is arguments over hurt feelings and people getting defensive.

As far as the OP, I think God is mostly just a cover for lazy thinking/inaction. Can't fathom how/why something came to be? Goddidit! Feeling overwhelmed by circumstances? God'llfixit! Someone else in dire straits? Thoughts'n'prayers! Even for those happy occasions where other people might have been instrumental in bringing about a good result, it's ThankyouJesus!

And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.

Sadly, I think conditioning/brain washing effects can be largely relevant too. Once it has its hooks sunk deep into someone’s psychological belief system, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to reverse things imho.

And agreeing with that last.

I will agree it is difficult, but it's not impossible. Many atheists on this forum are former Christians.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2018, 02:12:07 AM »
It's really disappointing when I make one of my infrequent-of-late stops here to see what's going on, see a new thread with an intriguing title and multiple pages of response, and find that over 3/4 of it is arguments over hurt feelings and people getting defensive.

As far as the OP, I think God is mostly just a cover for lazy thinking/inaction. Can't fathom how/why something came to be? Goddidit! Feeling overwhelmed by circumstances? God'llfixit! Someone else in dire straits? Thoughts'n'prayers! Even for those happy occasions where other people might have been instrumental in bringing about a good result, it's ThankyouJesus!

And when critical thinking itself is a "sin" in your theology, it pretty much ensures that God will always be the answer.

lol i thought the same thing, pages and pages of drama and arguing about definitions of words.

also did xians stop posting on this forum? didn't see a single post defending the idea of god

on topic - warning long rambling blog post cause i need a catharsis:
so recently my parents (both retired) joined a chinese church along with their other friends. they are very happy and sing in choir and do other social activities. i'm truly happy for them.

so to answer the question of why we need to invoke a god? god is required so that a church can be built around such an idea and provide a sense of community, something that is sorely lacking in today's social media mobile phone world. i think its been a decade since i became an atheist and i still miss that close sense of community. there's something to be said about meeting together with the same group of people throughout the week, engaged in a variety of activites. both the variety and the consistency are important.

i've found its harder to make friends in old age. i graduated college long ago, have been working, got married, about to start a family. my closest friends from high school/college have either already started a family or are about to as well. as you grow older people grow apart or change jobs or move to a different state, and even though you can keep in touch, its not the same community feel that church gave. i found community at a bar that i frequented for ten plus years, but it was not the good kind of consistency to drink with the same people week after week, many of whom were just stuck in a rut in life. it was fun to go crazy there in my 20s, but part of me feels like it was a huge waste of time. luckily i still managed to have a decent white collar career, but probably would be further along if i hadn't. but it was that need for community that led me to keep going back.

i even tried atheist groups on meetup but they were too left leaning for me. i joined an orchestra but again, there was no variety. we hung out during orchestra and it was a blast, but not outside of orchestra. currently i moved to the east coast to new jersey (from west coast). i had some friends in new york but didn't feel like making the commute on weekends. i badly needed community. i knew i did not want to find a new bar, at this stage in my life i'm trying to start a family with my wife and continue advancing my career, not get stupid drunk on weekends. i play online chess so i tried chess club irl but it was lame. i've done mixed martial arts in the past so i joined a nearby brazilian jiu jitsu gym. it has been wonderful. but again the problem is that its compartmentalized. i go a few times a week, grapple my heart out on the mats but then everyone goes home to do their own thing. there's consistency, but not variety.

still haven't found that close sense of community that church gave. consistency: obv we met multiple times a week. variety: there was of course sunday service, but friday bible studies (beats getting drunk with losers), weekday prayer meetings (beats looking at porn), retreats, mission trips (i went on only one mission trip to canada first nations people with koreans as a cultural exchange program and its one of my happiest memories), random potlucks, and just random church organized activities.  the community gave me genuine good times and good vibes, and although i've lived a full adventure filled life in the decade since i stopped going to church, still looking for a good alternative that the church provided. so my answer is, god isn't necessarily necessary, but to me the church is. hehehe i bet that will trigger a lot of people. don't care. perhaps some ex christians can relate to what i'm describing. 

i did try the buddhism thing for a while because it works as a secular religion, and i still meditate, but again, didn't get the same feeling i was looking for in the group meditation sessions i attended, because ultimately meditating is a solo sport. and yeah, you can't choose to believe something. that's the problem with pascals wager. so as much as i miss it, i can't bring myself to go back to church. that'd feel ridiculous.. maybe when i go back and visit seattle i might visit the first church i ever attended, but most of the people there were elderly when i attended as a kid, and i'm pretty sure most of them have passed away at this point :(
 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2018, 07:05:05 PM »
one doesn't need a god for friends and good casseroles.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2018, 07:19:03 PM »
Check out Unitarian Universalists.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline clip11

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2018, 07:25:01 PM »
Well, for me it is when I don't understand something.  Like my aunt had colon cancer and they had to take a foot and a half of her colon out.  So God cured her.   Also, when I need correct numbers for Powerball.  If He can fix high school football games why not Powerball #s.  He can do that and still be a Peek-A-Boo God.
(OH, and don't get me started on finding car keys.)
God used the surgery and doctors to heal her!!!

And if she doesn't get better then God works in mysterious ways!!!

Heads I win tails you lose!!!

Offline clip11

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2018, 07:30:20 PM »
Can’t deny I wish there was a god to a point. One reason is that I really don’t want to have to go through an agonising death prior to dying and it would be a big comfort (anxiety wise for me) if there was such a thing a god who could/would prevent it.
I used to believe in heaven and thought that's where my grandparents and great grandparents were. I still wish that they are still alive somewhere out there and I could one day see them again. But I know that really wishing something exists doesn't make it so.

I came across my grandma obituary and it starts off by saying that she "went home to be with the Lord at approximately 5:00 pm"
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 07:34:12 PM by clip11 »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2018, 11:37:39 AM »
Well, for me it is when I don't understand something.  Like my aunt had colon cancer and they had to take a foot and a half of her colon out.  So God cured her.   Also, when I need correct numbers for Powerball.  If He can fix high school football games why not Powerball #s.  He can do that and still be a Peek-A-Boo God.
(OH, and don't get me started on finding car keys.)
God used the surgery and doctors to heal her!!!

And if she doesn't get better then God works in mysterious ways!!!

Heads I win tails you lose!!!

then this god hated everyone who lived before he "allowed" penicillin, c-limbs, modern surgery, etc to exist. 

unfortunately our local UU are far too goddy for me. 
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Offline Jag

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2018, 05:43:38 PM »
unfortunately our local UU are far too goddy for me.

That IS unfortunate. By demographic luck, both congregations that I've been involved with were heavy on college professors, which limited the goddy aspects to nearly none. I'm unsure what I'm going to find in the mountains. I'll do some community volunteering early after we arrive to start getting a sense of where 'my people' are going to be.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline fishjie

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #140 on: July 27, 2018, 12:42:52 AM »
one doesn't need a god for friends and good casseroles.

you'd think so but friends drift apart due to new jobs and moving far away. its much harder to make new friends once you're in your 30s. this is especially hitting home hard for me now that i've moved from west to east coast. i have no interest in going to bars anymore.

here's one NYT article talking about this, if you google it there's many more similar articles
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-challenge-of-making-friends-as-an-adult.html

church is a social club and creates a strong bond. there's not much that can come close, except the bond formed by people who serve together in the military. so for now doing jiu jitsu is my church on sundays. its keeping me sane. i mean i love my wife and all, but i am missing that sense of community. it would feel wrong to go to church.

Jag - aren't unitarians also christians, they just believe in all religions or something weird like that? the thing is i don't believe in any god or gods. i'm interested in religion and think it provides good value, but i can't pretend to worship something or somethings i dont believe in

Offline fishjie

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #141 on: July 27, 2018, 01:11:36 AM »
some more thoughts on invoking the need for god:

life on this earth is short and grim, and often full of senseless and stupid tragedies. if god does not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. why? because otherwise, a lot of people would kill themselves. there's a funny bit in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy where theres this machine that shows you just how insignificant you are in the universe (the Total Perspective Vortex) and people who enter the machine kill themselves afterward. The thing is while existential nihilists are gross and disgusting people, theyre right. But they dont believe it either otherwise they would've put a bullet through their own brain so i cant take them seriously. Life is short, your life doesn't matter, and after you die, a few people may mourn, but in a few decades nobody will care. even if you are robin williams your memory will fade, until centuries pass and you are completely forgotten, or humanity has wiped itself out. pretty bleak.

so people invent stuff like religion. at the end of the day, no matter how shitty life is, you get into heaven where all suffering ceases. whereas if youre an atheist you're shit out of luck. your friend died? theyre gone FOREVER. your loved one was hit by a car? wow life is unfair but tough shit. yeah life is unfair. bummer dude. so its no wonder people run to religion. now atheists, esp tech workers like me, will flock to the singularity as a religion, with pastor ray kurzweil presiding. i guess i'm a believer in the singularity too, because its a hell of a lot more positive than the POS nihilist postmodern losers, but who knows if true immortality and curing of diseases and famine will happen in our lifetime? or that the nanobots dont kill us grey goo style? hope pastor kurzweil is right and it all works out

Offline Jag

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #142 on: July 27, 2018, 01:27:20 AM »
As I understand it, there's an official stance, and my limited slice of experience.

The official stance is one of respect for the good in all people regardless of their faith, and an active role in issues of social justice.

What I found was a lot of friendly atheists who were interested in social issues, deliberate in their group actions, and happy to spend Sunday mornings drinking coffee and eating homemade goodies, soup, and bread, and chatting about whatever.

Service was week 1 pastor led (very broadly, people could and did interject at random moments), week 2 was a guest of some sort, week 3 was pastor again, and week 4 was another guest. No service if the month had 5 Sundays. There was an atheist Meetup that had a spaghetti dinner on those Sundays. No services during the summer either.

No one cared if anyone did or didn't believe in god, gods, or fairies, they just expect everyone to not be an asshole. Seriously, they were laid-back, pleasant, smart folks to spend Sundays mornings with.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #143 on: July 27, 2018, 09:40:54 AM »
some more thoughts on invoking the need for god:

life on this earth is short and grim, and often full of senseless and stupid tragedies. if god does not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. why? because otherwise, a lot of people would kill themselves. there's a funny bit in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy where theres this machine that shows you just how insignificant you are in the universe (the Total Perspective Vortex) and people who enter the machine kill themselves afterward. The thing is while existential nihilists are gross and disgusting people, theyre right. But they dont believe it either otherwise they would've put a bullet through their own brain so i cant take them seriously. Life is short, your life doesn't matter, and after you die, a few people may mourn, but in a few decades nobody will care. even if you are robin williams your memory will fade, until centuries pass and you are completely forgotten, or humanity has wiped itself out. pretty bleak.

so people invent stuff like religion. at the end of the day, no matter how shitty life is, you get into heaven where all suffering ceases. whereas if youre an atheist you're s**t out of luck. your friend died? theyre gone FOREVER. your loved one was hit by a car? wow life is unfair but tough s**t. yeah life is unfair. bummer dude. so its no wonder people run to religion. now atheists, esp tech workers like me, will flock to the singularity as a religion, with pastor ray kurzweil presiding. i guess i'm a believer in the singularity too, because its a hell of a lot more positive than the POS nihilist postmodern losers, but who knows if true immortality and curing of diseases and famine will happen in our lifetime? or that the nanobots dont kill us grey goo style? hope pastor kurzweil is right and it all works out

Ah, lest you forget, it's not an actual god that is apparently necessary, it is simply the idea of a god, and the idea of eternal life. But that is in no way true for everyone - and it does not make that particular perspective any better than one without the need for a god or a heaven.

Life is short, but it is not grim. Senseless tragedies are rare, not often. People would not kill themselves if there were no god, as clearly evidenced by the lack of atheist suicides. So right out of the gate, you are making claims that cannot reasonably be supported by evidence.

I would agree that individual humans are insignificant in the grand scheme of the entirety of the universe, but we don't typically think about ourselves from that perspective. I'm not sure if that alone is the main reason some people commit suicide - I would bet that it is mostly based on their position in their family/society and other relationships.

Please point out a "gross and disgusting" existential nihilist, and show me where gross and disgusting come into play. I'm curious.

I would agree that our brief time as individuals does indeed fade away. And those who become famous last longer, depending on their contribution to the world, good or bad.

Is it bleak to think that our own sun will die?

I have embraced a life without gods and religions, and it is actually quite pleasant. There are no side effects to worry about, like sin, and being saved, prayers, and kneeling before an invisible myth. I have obligations to my family and friends, but none to a group of deluded people who cannot imagine their lives without their beliefs.

Nature is all we have, and it does not mean that there is no meaning to our lives. The other side of that perspective is quite amazing, if one is willing to consider and embrace it. Namely, we are each a miracle of nature. None of us asked to be here, and it is truly amazing when an individual recognizes it. Here I am, despite all odds that a different egg or sperm, or relationship between two adults would have produced someone else. I am happy to be here. And I know my time is going to end. For this reason, I am working harder to be a better person, create joy, and experience whatever I can while I'm here.

I do wish I could live longer so that I can see what the future holds in technology and our understanding of the universe.