Author Topic: Let's brainstorm on God for realz  (Read 2134 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2018, 01:38:24 PM »
You seem to be promoting ableism.

I'm sorry that that's the way you interpreted what I said. I'm not. Suggest you reread my above post in full.

To try to make things a bit clearer, when asking people to share what they thought this was regarding/considering what Jetson said earlier here:

Quote
Can we generate any serious challenges we face that would invoke the need for a god?

Is a god required to comfort peoples anxiety over death?

Ableism/the question of whether or not assisted suicide is right or wrong are different subjects. Of course, you're free to make separate threads about these if you would like.

You were not just talking about facing death. See here:

Quote from:  emma
So far as I know, people don’t tend to be allowed (by law) anywhere to be given any kind of assisted mercy death when they re living with one or more conditions that take any sense of a decent quality of life away from them (doesn’t necessarily have to include terminal conditions but can do).

I asked for examples of a non-terminal disability that could explain what you mean. Are you talking about amputations, blindness, deafness, T-12 spinal cord injury, mental illness, Lou Garrett disease, etc etc etc?

Do you need gods to conquer the mental aspects of finding quality of life with any of those afflictions OR you just give up and kill yourself?
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2018, 03:36:44 AM »
@ Junebug:

1.) ”You weren’t just talking about facing death”

My post, as a whole, related to those points of Jetson’s. I quoted him when making it (though it’s true enough that I could have taken out those points of his I wasn’t so much referring to) and I made my point (as to what I was getting at) pretty clearly in my last paragraph there too.

2.) You originally said this:

“Please give some examples of a non terminal disability that should allow euthanising”

The whole subject of whether or not euthanasia should be allowed to those with certain disabilities is a different one to the the one that I raised. That was to do with what Jetson mentioned on generating serious challenges that might invoke the need for a god in people (just some from my POV anyways)/to do with answering what he asked on if god is needed to comfort people’s anxiety over death.

If you would like to make a separate thread on that subject I’m fine with giving the examples you asked for there.

Edit:

“Do you need gods to conquer the mental aspects of finding quality of life with any of those afflictions OR you just give up and kill yourself?”

Junebug, with all due respect, I’m not responding further to this kind of thing in here. Again, you’re introducing a new subject. I’m really trying to stay (reasonably well at least) on topic by this point (you didn’t long comment on thread derailing yourself) and I’m pretty sure that kind of question tackling isn’t what Jetson had in mind when making this thread.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 05:12:04 AM by Emma286 »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2018, 06:57:27 AM »
Emma,

This is not off topic: Do you need gods to conquer the mental aspects of finding quality of life with any of those afflictions OR you just give up and kill yourself?

^^That's not off topic^^

Since you cannot come up with an answer, I'll give it a whirl. I don't think it matters if you are theist or atheist. Those challenges are hard. You have to be a fighter, strong willed. That's especially true for an ableism society constructed for able bodied people.

You might try to connect what YOU said about assisted suicide for injuries that lessen the quality of life into this topic too.

Why would an atheist prefer to die? I do not believe that's true.

Here is your last paragraph:
I am inclined to think, for at least some people, that because they know (right now) they generally can’t rely on other people to give them that kind of aid should it ever be needed/if it is currently needed then this could contribute to forming the view that a god is needed to provide feelings of relief regarding anxiety/fear over the physical experience of dying.

This paragraph does not flow with the first paragraph.
Are these dying theists contemplating assisted suicide. I doubt it, theists believe suicide sends you straight to Hades.

The topic is about why would an atheist need gods for this last fleeting moment in life.

It really depends on the individual. I will have less anxiety because I will not be scared of meeting some malevolent creator. I will just no longer exist.

Hospice already does kind of assist with death. They pump you full of morphine which keeps you comfy and shuts down vital organs nice and slow. It works for theists and atheists.

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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2018, 01:04:49 PM »
I think that definitely could be a factor, but it gets a little convoluted since that belief in god also usually includes the claim that they shouldn't be afraid of death/dying because of that god.

Funny how the claims just don't work when held up against the model of reality. The claim god will comfort the dying because they will "know" they will wake up to a utopia in which they are the beloved celebrity meets reality when there is no comfort, there is no evidence (or even reasonable hope) of any utopia. The reality is, fear of mortality is the price we pay for being hyper-cognizant of our own existence.

Because let's face it, if believers really believed their faith, there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

ETA: oh screwtape, I'm finally catching on.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 01:15:02 PM by albeto »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2018, 04:16:33 PM »
I think that definitely could be a factor, but it gets a little convoluted since that belief in god also usually includes the claim that they shouldn't be afraid of death/dying because of that god.

Funny how the claims just don't work when held up against the model of reality. The claim god will comfort the dying because they will "know" they will wake up to a utopia in which they are the beloved celebrity meets reality when there is no comfort, there is no evidence (or even reasonable hope) of any utopia. The reality is, fear of mortality is the price we pay for being hyper-cognizant of our own existence.

Because let's face it, if believers really believed their faith, there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

ETA: oh screwtape, I'm finally catching on.

1. How do you know what's going on in a dying theist's mind?

2. The buybull does claim that Jesus said it will be worse to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the depths of the ocean than to hurt a child. So why would theists celebrate someone hurting children?
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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2018, 05:54:54 PM »

1. How do you know what's going on in a dying theist's mind?

2. The buybull does claim that Jesus said it will be worse to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the depths of the ocean than to hurt a child. So why would theists celebrate someone hurting children?

1. How does anyone know what's going on in anyone's mind?

2. I didn't say anything about anyone celebrating someone hurting children. I said if believers really believed their faith, there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2018, 07:34:11 PM »
I think that definitely could be a factor, but it gets a little convoluted since that belief in god also usually includes the claim that they shouldn't be afraid of death/dying because of that god.

Funny how the claims just don't work when held up against the model of reality. The claim god will comfort the dying because they will "know" they will wake up to a utopia in which they are the beloved celebrity meets reality when there is no comfort, there is no evidence (or even reasonable hope) of any utopia. The reality is, fear of mortality is the price we pay for being hyper-cognizant of our own existence.

Because let's face it, if believers really believed their faith, there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

ETA: oh screwtape, I'm finally catching on.

indeed.  if there was belief in this great heaven, how many Christians would be volunteering for removing land mines so they would not harm others?  Why did we not see thousands and thousands of Christians flooding into ebola ridden areas if they were sure that if they died selflessly they would get heaven?  a truly omnipotent benevolent god would not have had such things happen but a benevolent but not omnipotent god would encourage such actions by its followers. 
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Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2018, 10:11:02 PM »
Wow. I haven't started a 4 pager in a while!

Some great comments and side discussions - I'm not one to get too worked up when they go off a bit...

Anyhoo...

We're hitting on an important point about true belief in a god. Honestly, the more someone claims to believe, and the more time and effort they put into that "belief", the less I think they actually believe. The reason is quite simple to me: a true believer, I mean TRUE believer, would never have a need or compulsion to explain their belief. Now, I'm sure there are those who remain quiet and do not spend time and effort explaining or supporting their god beliefs, and who die quietly - perhaps in some comfort - but we will never know, will we? I think not. We cannot read others minds.

Or - I am jaded. I cannot fathom how an adult could truly believe there is a god, thus I tend to think it's not really possible to truly believe. I'm using my own worldview to explain everyone else's! lol

Perhaps a good question to ask is this: define true belief in a god

True belief would be completely void of doubt - like standing on the beach in California and acknowledging the existence of the Pacific ocean. This is true, undeniable belief in something. Demonstrable in multiple ways, through multiple senses, and barring a matrix reality, something no sane person can deny if they were standing next to you. How can such a model be applied to a god - especially the god of the Bible?


Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2018, 10:45:08 PM »
True belief would be completely void of doubt

I don't know. I think true religious faith is belief in spite of doubt, in spite of evidence to the contrary. That's why it's such a problem to see a culture value belief above reason and logic. I think we've gotten to a point (or are see the internet illuminate it) where people are proud to believe in things that other people recognize to be false. It's like a badge of honor to say they've got a strong faith in some belief despite reasons to let that belief go. Of course this is rampant in church communities, but my point is it's reinforced in society in general. From medical care to romance stories, people value faith over reason specifically because the faith overrides doubt.

Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2018, 10:55:45 PM »
True belief would be completely void of doubt

I don't know. I think true religious faith is belief in spite of doubt, in spite of evidence to the contrary. That's why it's such a problem to see a culture value belief above reason and logic. I think we've gotten to a point (or are see the internet illuminate it) where people are proud to believe in things that other people recognize to be false. It's like a badge of honor to say they've got a strong faith in some belief despite reasons to let that belief go. Of course this is rampant in church communities, but my point is it's reinforced in society in general. From medical care to romance stories, people value faith over reason specifically because the faith overrides doubt.

We are definitely seeing an elevation of what you describe - especially in the Trump era (I can't believe we have an era called Trump). Pride in believing whatever one chooses, regardless of observable reality is becoming a serious problem IMO. How does a grown adult take pride in denying scientific consensus? Boggles the mind.


Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2018, 08:17:36 AM »
Wow. I haven't started a 4 pager in a while!

Some great comments and side discussions - I'm not one to get too worked up when they go off a bit...

Anyhoo...

We're hitting on an important point about true belief in a god. Honestly, the more someone claims to believe, and the more time and effort they put into that "belief", the less I think they actually believe. The reason is quite simple to me: a true believer, I mean TRUE believer, would never have a need or compulsion to explain their belief. Now, I'm sure there are those who remain quiet and do not spend time and effort explaining or supporting their god beliefs, and who die quietly - perhaps in some comfort - but we will never know, will we? I think not. We cannot read others minds.

Or - I am jaded. I cannot fathom how an adult could truly believe there is a god, thus I tend to think it's not really possible to truly believe. I'm using my own worldview to explain everyone else's! lol

Perhaps a good question to ask is this: define true belief in a god

True belief would be completely void of doubt - like standing on the beach in California and acknowledging the existence of the Pacific ocean. This is true, undeniable belief in something. Demonstrable in multiple ways, through multiple senses, and barring a matrix reality, something no sane person can deny if they were standing next to you. How can such a model be applied to a god - especially the god of the Bible?

I have a small sample of believers I know 9-10, and the common link between them is they do not go to church. They do not read their buybulls. They are pretty in love with Jesus. It's like that dying on the cross for me thing really encourages some loyalty. They cannot imagine me in Hell for being gay or atheist, but they believe murderers go there and pedophiles. A few do not even believe in Hell. They are liberal. They vote Democrat, just like most of us do.

I have 1 Republican friend, very close, that drives me bat shit crazy, but I love her. We've been through a lot together. I don't think she wants to go to Heaven without me. Her Dad died about 8 years ago. She will not accept her Dad's not in Heaven.

My point here is that SPAG is happening. These friends of mine do not care about Science. They don't understand it. I have a hard time understanding it myself. Science is not the reason I became atheist, Evidence of Absence is. All I ever asked God for was comfort, something the buybull promises God will supply. I blamed my gayness, my pot smoking, and then I found this forum.

It was something Jag said to me years ago, to take credit for my own strength and resilience, that really enticed me to consider that God wasn't real. Then I saw them baby foxes get eaten by another fox and it was done. The hardest part to let go of was not only no afterlife for me, but no afterlife for my mother. If anybody I know deserved to go to paradise; it was my mother. I still get comfort knowing her suffering is done. I hope my friends and family feel the same way when I die.

When I came here I had no doubts that God existed. I had my doubts that religion was Godly. I seriously came to that conclusion from the Old Testament and The Sermon on the Mount. My own experience with going to church, and witnessing the hypocrisy was also a large factor in my disgust with religion. These friends of mine feel the same way about religion. I deduce this is why the SPAG.

One more thing that I think encourages belief in God is thoughts. They come from nowhere it seems. Without a basic lesson in Psychology, you have to understand how that leads to God; a ghost inside the machine.

Jetson I'm not following your logic about belief and defending belief necessarily meaning non-belief. Are you taking into account the fact that Christians are commanded to witness? That they really want to save us from the torments of Hell? As annoying as that is, I think some mean well.

As for me I was trying to save the world, lol. I thought if we got rid of religion and everybody just believed and loved one another God would reward us with eternal life on Earth. I meant well. I am glad I came to my senses. ;)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2018, 08:42:38 AM »

1. How do you know what's going on in a dying theist's mind?

2. The buybull does claim that Jesus said it will be worse to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the depths of the ocean than to hurt a child. So why would theists celebrate someone hurting children?

1. How does anyone know what's going on in anyone's mind?

You cannot. That's why I wondered why you said this:
Quote
meets reality when there is no comfort
How do you know there is no comfort?

2. I didn't say anything about anyone celebrating someone hurting children. I said if believers really believed their faith, there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

Yes you did. See here:
Quote
there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

And here:
Quote
there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early

They could not have gotten to Heaven early without being slaughtered!

You seem to be ignoring some facts about Christianity to make this assertion. There is not one scripture that celebrates an early arrival into Heaven. As I pointed out before Jesus commands against hurting children. From the religious Christian perspective, life was given to us to serve Him. Those children were begrudged that honor.

There is no connecting the dots with your assertion, that Christians should celebrate the deaths of children.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2018, 08:42:49 AM »
Jetson I'm not following your logic about belief and defending belief necessarily meaning non-belief. Are you taking into account the fact that Christians are commanded to witness? That they really want to save us from the torments of Hell? As annoying as that is, I think some mean well.

In my opinion, "commanded to witness" is a fear-driven phenomenon. Meaning, people who do this are doing it from a place of fear - as opposed to faith or belief. Of course, I could be wrong, and I don't want to be presumptuous about my personal knowledge of psychology - it is academically basic. Along with fear, there is also a "group" aspect at work. George Carlin joked about how he likes people, but not groups. And he made the case that when people join groups, they can become intolerable. I can see that. I see it daily.

I have no doubt that there are people who sincerely believe what they are told. But I have trouble accepting that an individual would conclude a god as an answer to something they don't understand. We may never know because we are all by-products of ancestors who somehow decided that gods were an answer to some difficult questions. For example, what child would truly believe in Santa without the aid of their parents introducing the idea?

Go back to a time where you sincerely believed that an actual god existed, and dig into how you made that determination. Who told you about God? Were you given alternatives, did you think of some on your own? Were you ever in doubt secretly around your parents or family as a child?

Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2018, 08:47:15 AM »

You seem to be ignoring some facts about Christianity to make this assertion. There is not one scripture that celebrates an early arrival into Heaven. As I pointed out before Jesus commands against hurting children. From the religious Christian perspective, life was given to us to serve Him. Those children were begrudged that honor.

There is no connecting the dots with your assertion, that Christians should celebrate the deaths of children.

There is logic to connect those dots. Outside of the religion itself, keeping in mind that Christianity is not something that can be clearly defined beyond the central character being a god/son of a god, it is easy to conclude that the final point of it all is heaven. I'm not sure how much more clear that could be. Logically speaking, being in heaven with god is the ultimate and final destination, thus if one truly believes a child has arrived in that spot, not all sects of Christianity agree with the idea that one must serve God before that time.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2018, 08:54:35 AM »

You seem to be ignoring some facts about Christianity to make this assertion. There is not one scripture that celebrates an early arrival into Heaven. As I pointed out before Jesus commands against hurting children. From the religious Christian perspective, life was given to us to serve Him. Those children were begrudged that honor.

There is no connecting the dots with your assertion, that Christians should celebrate the deaths of children.

There is logic to connect those dots. Outside of the religion itself, keeping in mind that Christianity is not something that can be clearly defined beyond the central character being a god/son of a god, it is easy to conclude that the final point of it all is heaven. I'm not sure how much more clear that could be. Logically speaking, being in heaven with god is the ultimate and final destination, thus if one truly believes a child has arrived in that spot, not all sects of Christianity agree with the idea that one must serve God before that time.

Why are we going outside the religion to find the logic to connect the dots about that religion?

It cannot be clearly defined to US. We have already concluded there are no gods. I am not prepared to assert that I know what is going on in the minds of billions of people's minds.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2018, 08:57:28 AM »
Jetson I'm not following your logic about belief and defending belief necessarily meaning non-belief. Are you taking into account the fact that Christians are commanded to witness? That they really want to save us from the torments of Hell? As annoying as that is, I think some mean well.

Go back to a time where you sincerely believed that an actual god existed, and dig into how you made that determination. Who told you about God? Were you given alternatives, did you think of some on your own? Were you ever in doubt secretly around your parents or family as a child?


I hope you catch this modified post. Yes I was given the alternative of atheism. I tried it, then went to SPAG, that I sincerely believed was a revelation from God. --->my own thoughts for real though.

As a young child no. After my parents divorced when I was 13, and the hypocrisy at the many churches we attended, I started to doubt that God loves us. Like I said, I was atheist or maybe even ipnostic for several years. One thing I really disagreed with was religion. I believed religion was a disgrace to God. I even started a thread here about it.

I'll get to all the questions eventually. Who told me about God, my parents did. As a young child I was a real believer. I guess that's why the buybull proposes we believe like children, they are gullible.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:09:58 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2018, 09:08:05 AM »

Jetson I'm not following your logic about belief and defending belief necessarily meaning non-belief. Are you taking into account the fact that Christians are commanded to witness? That they really want to save us from the torments of Hell? As annoying as that is, I think some mean well.

Go back to a time where you sincerely believed that an actual god existed, and dig into how you made that determination. Who told you about God? Were you given alternatives, did you think of some on your own? Were you ever in doubt secretly around your parents or family as a child?

I just posted that stuff Jetson.  :?

OK, just saw your edit!

You didn't go deep enough - was my point. The idea of reading the Old Testament just popped into your head - as a child? Perhaps that is possible, but I suspect there was more involved, as with most believers. Humans don't learn in vacuums. We have a language so that we can communicate ideas and beliefs - no one can get to where you are today as a loner on an island. That would be bizarre.

For example. if I go back far enough, I was taken to church and Sunday school by my parents, but when we were at home there was little to no talk about a god or gods. All of my religious influence came from military chaplains and volunteers. Perhaps that is why I didn't buy into it - no reinforcement at home. I know that is not the case for many children in the U.S. When parents push religion at home, what choice do children have?

Just some thoughts.

Offline jetson

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2018, 09:10:34 AM »

You seem to be ignoring some facts about Christianity to make this assertion. There is not one scripture that celebrates an early arrival into Heaven. As I pointed out before Jesus commands against hurting children. From the religious Christian perspective, life was given to us to serve Him. Those children were begrudged that honor.

There is no connecting the dots with your assertion, that Christians should celebrate the deaths of children.

There is logic to connect those dots. Outside of the religion itself, keeping in mind that Christianity is not something that can be clearly defined beyond the central character being a god/son of a god, it is easy to conclude that the final point of it all is heaven. I'm not sure how much more clear that could be. Logically speaking, being in heaven with god is the ultimate and final destination, thus if one truly believes a child has arrived in that spot, not all sects of Christianity agree with the idea that one must serve God before that time.

Why are we going outside the religion to find the logic to connect the dots about that religion?

It cannot be clearly defined to US. We have already concluded there are no gods. I am not prepared to assert that I know what is going on in the minds of billions of people's minds.

Well, I am talking to atheists, mostly. WE are by default outside of religion. And all of what I am saying is speculation based on personal experience and observation. I won't pretend to know the mind of someone who claims to be religious. But as I said, I have my doubts about true belief/faith, etc.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2018, 09:24:56 AM »

OK, just saw your edit!

You didn't go deep enough - was my point. The idea of reading the Old Testament just popped into your head - as a child? Perhaps that is possible, but I suspect there was more involved, as with most believers. Humans don't learn in vacuums. We have a language so that we can communicate ideas and beliefs - no one can get to where you are today as a loner on an island. That would be bizarre.

For example. if I go back far enough, I was taken to church and Sunday school by my parents, but when we were at home there was little to no talk about a god or gods. All of my religious influence came from military chaplains and volunteers. Perhaps that is why I didn't buy into it - no reinforcement at home. I know that is not the case for many children in the U.S. When parents push religion at home, what choice do children have?

Just some thoughts.

No I read the buybull when I was staying at my dad's house in my late 20's early 30's. He had quit going to church, but we are both singers. Dad had over 300 soundtracks for southern gospel songs.  What compelled me to revisit the idea of God was suffering. I just wanted my suffering to end. It did not help. In fact, my belief in God made my suffering worse. I just could not square a loving God letting my suffering continue, or anybody's for that matter. I had to be doing something wrong. I took care of others while neglecting myself to obtain God's approval and help with my suffering. After years of that stupidity, I came to my senses.

To your point, at sometime in human history, gods were created from nothing. This happened around the globe in tribes that had no idea there were other tribes in existence. That explains why there are many gods. IMO, fear and lack of knowledge, and an evolving brain, explains the rest.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:26:38 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2018, 09:31:45 AM »
I do not disagree that culture plays a huge role in holding on to those ancient beliefs that came from nothing.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2018, 11:13:55 AM »
True belief would be completely void of doubt

I don't know. I think true religious faith is belief in spite of doubt, in spite of evidence to the contrary. That's why it's such a problem to see a culture value belief above reason and logic. I think we've gotten to a point (or are see the internet illuminate it) where people are proud to believe in things that other people recognize to be false. It's like a badge of honor to say they've got a strong faith in some belief despite reasons to let that belief go. Of course this is rampant in church communities, but my point is it's reinforced in society in general. From medical care to romance stories, people value faith over reason specifically because the faith overrides doubt.

We are definitely seeing an elevation of what you describe - especially in the Trump era (I can't believe we have an era called Trump). Pride in believing whatever one chooses, regardless of observable reality is becoming a serious problem IMO. How does a grown adult take pride in denying scientific consensus? Boggles the mind.

it's the peculiar human need to make belive that they are special and know special secrets about the universe.  I'm going to guess that it is based on the need for power over others. aka "I know something you don't know"
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2018, 11:20:38 AM »
True belief would be completely void of doubt

I don't know. I think true religious faith is belief in spite of doubt, in spite of evidence to the contrary. That's why it's such a problem to see a culture value belief above reason and logic. I think we've gotten to a point (or are see the internet illuminate it) where people are proud to believe in things that other people recognize to be false. It's like a badge of honor to say they've got a strong faith in some belief despite reasons to let that belief go. Of course this is rampant in church communities, but my point is it's reinforced in society in general. From medical care to romance stories, people value faith over reason specifically because the faith overrides doubt.

We are definitely seeing an elevation of what you describe - especially in the Trump era (I can't believe we have an era called Trump). Pride in believing whatever one chooses, regardless of observable reality is becoming a serious problem IMO. How does a grown adult take pride in denying scientific consensus? Boggles the mind.

it's the peculiar human need to make belive that they are special and know special secrets about the universe.  I'm going to guess that it is based on the need for power over others. aka "I know something you don't know"

I don't get why some people seem to think that without belief in God we aren't special. We are no matter what way you look at it. In this vast universe we're so far the only life we've found. Is the Earth perfect for us? No. We can't live on 3/4 of the planet (not even taking into account land that is too dangerous for us), even some plants are poisonous to us, things that are good for us like water can potentially kill us in excess, etc. But us on our planet are still all we've concretely seen in terms of publicized stuff. I think that there's other life out there somewhere in the universe (it's a big universe, after all), but our existence is still special, whether God is factored into it or not.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2018, 11:49:06 AM »

You cannot. That's why I wondered why you said this:
Quote
meets reality when there is no comfort
How do you know there is no comfort?

Admittedly, I'm using the word "know" colloquially here because of one's opinion can be rather flexible, people change their minds when they're away from us and we don't know what the latest detail in their thinking is, and of course we can't know anything 100%. We can however, have a certain measure of certainty that our assumptions are correct by comparing them to reality. We can have a certain measure of certainty that our predictions about others are relatively accurate by watching those predictions play out, modifying them as necessary to maintain reliability.

It's the same process that allows us to not be surprised when we find Trump has an empathy cheat sheet to use with the survivors and family members of recent school shooting victims. It fits a predictable pattern of behavior, one that suggests Trump doesn't "know" empathy, or how to express it if he does. That's how I'm using the word "know."

The thing is, it's not too hard to make predictions about the xian community in general when members do not conform to stated beliefs. And yes, I am speaking about xians generally, not individually. Essentially, I see the same SPAG you do. I see it using the same process you do: observation of hypocritical behavior/assertions and/or subsequent theological correction in any given event in which an articulated belief-claim does not correspond with reality.

Yes you did. See here:
Quote
there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early, without having to go through all the rigmarole and messy business of human life.

And here:
Quote
there would be a lot more celebration that 17 kids were awarded eternal paradise early

They could not have gotten to Heaven early without being slaughtered!

According to xian theology, yes, they could have. They could have died by god allowing them to fall down stairs, be assaulted by bears, wasting away, or being thrown out of a sleigh (Gashliecrumb Tinies, illustrated). This time he allowed them to succumb to the business end of an assault rifle in the hands of a 19 year old. In any case, you don't see xians celebrating the passage of people from "this life" to "the next" when they die in sudden, unexpected, or violent ways. Curious, that.

Have you ever been to a funeral of a person who died from a disease like cancer, one in which the outcome was known, people had time to prepare, there was no sudden, unexpected demise of a loved one? Have you ever been to one in which they ask people to not mourn the recently deceased because that person is supposedly in heaven with Jesus now? Have you ever attended one in which the sermon is about looking forward to our turn to see Jesus face to face and how great it will be to meet up with our loved ones again? I now agree with screwtape and velkyn that xians don't really believe what they say they believe. If they did their behavior would reflect that belief. Instead, their behavior reflects the belief that it is a tragedy that these lives were suddenly and violently cut short and the 60-80 more years of experiences, learning things, exploring things, falling in love, having daring adventures, developing lifelong interests are move realistic and therefore valuable than the proposed paradise waiting them.

We wouldn't see this dichotomy if someone truly expected the victim to experience a very real utopia the moment after they flatlined. It would be like lamenting the line at Disney Land coming to an end because now you have to ride the ride you have been eagerly anticipating, saving your money and vacation days to pay for. It doesn't make sense. We can be certain precisely because they are behaving as if other beliefs exist but they don't acknowledge them. Even to themselves.

Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2018, 12:14:08 PM »
We are definitely seeing an elevation of what you describe - especially in the Trump era (I can't believe we have an era called Trump). Pride in believing whatever one chooses, regardless of observable reality is becoming a serious problem IMO. How does a grown adult take pride in denying scientific consensus? Boggles the mind.

What velkyn says about being special rings true. In addition, I think we've come to the point where respect of a desired peer group is more important than values like knowledge and empathy. In my experience, it's my generation that really picked up on this faith-is-more-important-than-anything-else mindset. I can't recall seeing this in people older than me. I don't remember people like this when I was younger. My generation is the one that thought up the silly idea to offer trophies to all kids playing a sport, not just the winners. I think there's some cultural phenomenon going on here.

I'm thinking out loud here:

What if, way back in the 50's and 60's, the sexual revolution inspired the demand that certain ideas are to be held important despite not being valued by previous generations. Ideas like holding your government accountable rather than blindly trusting them. Ideas like owning your sexual desires rather than suppressing them. Ideas like chasing your dreams regardless of gender roles. Ideas like no longer being satisfied to be the quiet, subservient member of society because of your race.

Within a few generations, those beliefs evolved into demanding an individual is treated with more value than the status quo would justify. Tradition is optional, but conformity increasingly loses its value against the increasing value given to pursuing individual desires. The positive results include things like embracing LGBTQ rights and dropping expectations of segregation. The negative results inspired things like the radical SJW phenomenon. But essentially, what if the idea that a person's belief is more valuable than the collective database of knowledge is just an ugly, but natural, side effect of an earlier cultural rebellion against a systematic, traditionally sanctioned oppression?

I don't know whether or not earlier resistances to oppression fit into this model. For example, was the rebellion of the 50's and 60's inspired by the Suffragette movement of the turn of the century? What influence did abolitionism play? I don't know. It's interesting to ponder, but rather unsettling to watch as people like Jenny McCarthy invented and popularized an anti-vax sentiment because her "Google University" degree was considered just as valuable as a conventional medical degree.


Offline albeto

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2018, 12:26:32 PM »
Why are we going outside the religion to find the logic to connect the dots about that religion?

We aren't. We are making the logical connections that are found between scriptures, within tradition, and by the statements made by the greater xian community. It's the same process that inspired the doctrinal belief in the trinity. Universal salvation isn't accepted by everyone in xianity, but it is increasingly popular. Xians like to think god is just, that he wouldn't send a person to hell without giving them the opportunity to recognize and repent of their sins. There's no justice in this massacre. Or I should say, I suspect only the Westboro Baptist Church would celebrate this massacre as being justified.

Edited for brevity.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 01:59:16 PM by albeto »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2018, 06:12:54 AM »
Quote from: albeto
Admittedly, I'm using the word "know" colloquially here because of one's opinion can be rather flexible, people change their minds when they're away from us and we don't know what the latest detail in their thinking is, and of course we can't know anything 100%. We can however, have a certain measure of certainty that our assumptions are correct by comparing them to reality. We can have a certain measure of certainty that our predictions about others are relatively accurate by watching those predictions play out, modifying them as necessary to maintain reliability.

It's the same process that allows us to not be surprised when we find Trump has an empathy cheat sheet to use with the survivors and family members of recent school shooting victims. It fits a predictable pattern of behavior, one that suggests Trump doesn't "know" empathy, or how to express it if he does. That's how I'm using the word "know."

The thing is, it's not too hard to make predictions about the xian community in general when members do not conform to stated beliefs. And yes, I am speaking about xians generally, not individually. Essentially, I see the same SPAG you do. I see it using the same process you do: observation of hypocritical behavior/assertions and/or subsequent theological correction in any given event in which an articulated belief-claim does not correspond with reality.

I sure do appreciate you explaining how you used the word "know" when it was me that used it. I asked you how you "know" a dying theist feels no comfort. I'm calling that an unanswered question, but I really like the way you dodged it. ;)

I do not understand how you speak of Christianity in general when there is so many different sects. Maybe you're speaking of the buybull in general, and what it says. Even still, I cannot recall a verse that says/implies to celebrate the deaths of children/adolescents. I think the parents and community may get little comfort imagining those children in Heaven. If you look to the buybull to make sense of what you said, it doesn't add up. I say that because the buybull says the dead will rise when Jesus comes again. If you're in a Christian sect that believes that, there is plenty of reason for grief.

Quote

According to xian theology, yes, they could have. They could have died by god allowing them to fall down stairs, be assaulted by bears, wasting away, or being thrown out of a sleigh (Gashliecrumb Tinies, illustrated). This time he allowed them to succumb to the business end of an assault rifle in the hands of a 19 year old. In any case, you don't see xians celebrating the passage of people from "this life" to "the next" when they die in sudden, unexpected, or violent ways. Curious, that.

Have you ever been to a funeral of a person who died from a disease like cancer, one in which the outcome was known, people had time to prepare, there was no sudden, unexpected demise of a loved one? Have you ever been to one in which they ask people to not mourn the recently deceased because that person is supposedly in heaven with Jesus now? Have you ever attended one in which the sermon is about looking forward to our turn to see Jesus face to face and how great it will be to meet up with our loved ones again? I now agree with screwtape and velkyn that xians don't really believe what they say they believe. If they did their behavior would reflect that belief. Instead, their behavior reflects the belief that it is a tragedy that these lives were suddenly and violently cut short and the 60-80 more years of experiences, learning things, exploring things, falling in love, having daring adventures, developing lifelong interests are move realistic and therefore valuable than the proposed paradise waiting them.

We wouldn't see this dichotomy if someone truly expected the victim to experience a very real utopia the moment after they flatlined. It would be like lamenting the line at Disney Land coming to an end because now you have to ride the ride you have been eagerly anticipating, saving your money and vacation days to pay for. It doesn't make sense. We can be certain precisely because they are behaving as if other beliefs exist but they don't acknowledge them. Even to themselves.


It doesn't matter how a child dies, my point is there is no biblical text that says to celebrate the untimely death of a child/adolescent. If anything it's quite the opposite. They believe in freewill, so they do not necessarily believe God allowed this horrible thing to happen. I KNOW theological freewill makes no sense, but they make sense out of it.

Yes, sadly, I've been to too many funerals. I have also been to celebration of life events. That's how I, as a believer at the time, said farewell to my mother. My grief was for my loss, NOT her escape from this life to the next. I expect other theists feel this way about it.

You are still ignoring the sects that believe you lay in your grave until the second coming. Not all Christians believe you go straight to Heaven when you die. It's called the Rapture, when the dead in Christ shall rise.

Apparently New Orleans Christians do. Watch them celebrate. Does that mean they really believe? You can watch the whole thing, there is no crying, only second lining.

https://youtu.be/EG6KH905cGU?t=4m42s

Enough about death. I can agree that if believers believe what the buybull says they would have no cares for this world. They would be like the lily that does not plant nor sow, but are fed by the Master who watches them grow. They have the natural instinct to survive and thrive, just like we do. There's probably a verse that contradicts that one, but I cannot think of it. There's that part about caring for the earth in Genesis. I know Protestants have a strong work ethic, it must come out of that buybull somewhere, but I dunno.

As I mentioned earlier, and you seem to agree, we have SPAG. People are believing without the guidance of the buybull or a church. I do not think they should call themselves Christian, they are deist, IMO. They probably only call themselves Christian because it is their culture, and Jesus Loves Me; the fear of being ostracized is real. Jesus Loves Me is all that matters. That's all they need to know so there is no studying the buybull, and there is no church.

At the end of the day, I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. I can only speak to the few people I know, and my own experience SPAGing.

I do not agree with you, screwtape, and velkyn that behavior necessarily claims non-belief in a believer. I believe they may have some cognitive dissonance due to their behavior, but people reason themselves out of that, IMO.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2018, 06:44:35 AM »

Why are we going outside the religion to find the logic to connect the dots about that religion?

We aren't. We are making the logical connections that are found between scriptures, within tradition, and by the statements made by the greater xian community. It's the same process that inspired the doctrinal belief in the trinity. Universal salvation isn't accepted by everyone in xianity, but it is increasingly popular. Xians like to think god is just, that he wouldn't send a person to hell without giving them the opportunity to recognize and repent of their sins. There's no justice in this massacre. Or I should say, I suspect only the Westboro Baptist Church would celebrate this massacre as being justified.

Edited for brevity.

The person, jetson, that I asked this question to did say you have to go outside the religion. It is a valid question to jetson.

Please share the scriptures, the traditions, and quoted statements made by the greater Christian community. See where I'm coming from is here: just like politics you have a conservative Christian sect and a liberal Christian sect, and I do not know which one is greater. Their POVs don't match, but there is scripture to support both. Let's dig deeper, within those groups are subgroups. There is SPAG/New Age. To try and GENERALIZE, seems irrational to me. I'm going to call it a general hastilization fallacy. That makes it not logical.

Some people believe in a wrathful God, that God can do what God wants to, because He is God. Some believe in a just God. There is scripture to support both. There is the example of God's wrath in Noah's Flood, and you have Jesus telling us God's love is more so than your earthly father.

I do hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I think it's reckless to challenge Christians to celebrate or desire the deaths of children/adolescents to get to Heaven as soon as you can. I'm pretty sure when and if they do, many here supporting this argument will have reasons why they should not according to scripture, tradition, and statements by the greater Christian community.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2018, 07:28:03 AM »
Junebug, that last smite you gave Jag is blatantly spite spiting.

I understand your feeling hurt/upset/angry if this is the case, and sympathise if you are, but this is not an appropriate way of expressing that hurt and anger. Plus, just as it’s your right to put people here on ignore if you see good reason to it’s also her right to do so.

This is bullying/abusive treatment, even if you are doing it in response to perceived insults etc. 

And yes I know this is off topic, but as this is the thread involved I made an exception.

If this doesn’t stop (I’m sorry) but I will be bringing it up with the moderators (outside of this thread).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:38:53 AM by Emma286 »

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Let's brainstorm on God for realz
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2018, 10:22:37 AM »
Junebug, that last smite you gave Jag is blatantly spite spiting.

I understand your feeling hurt/upset/angry if this is the case, and sympathise if you are, but this is not an appropriate way of expressing that hurt and anger. Plus, just as it’s your right to put people here on ignore if you see good reason to it’s also her right to do so.

This is bullying/abusive treatment, even if you are doing it in response to perceived insults etc. 

And yes I know this is off topic, but as this is the thread involved I made an exception.

If this doesn’t stop (I’m sorry) but I will be bringing it up with the moderators (outside of this thread).

I didn't know it was possible for the same user to upvote or smite a post more than once, but I've now learned it's possible since I noticed JB smited one of Jag's posts twice.


JB, I think we all understand if you're hurt or upset about something, but smiting other users isn't the best way to go about it. It might consider others to think of you as volatile and reactive, which will have people less-inclined to engage in conversation with you.
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