Author Topic: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo  (Read 463 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17142
  • Darwins +342/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« on: September 21, 2017, 02:48:53 PM »
this stuff just makes me sad and angry.

Quote
Carrie DeKlyen, 37, a mother of six from Wyoming, Mich., was unconscious and gravely ill with an aggressive brain tumor when she delivered Life Lynn on Sept. 6. The baby weighed just 1 pound, 4 ounces at birth and was in the neonatal intensive care unit at C.S. Mott Children's Hospital.

DeKlyen declined to participate in a clinical trial or undergo chemotherapy, options that probably would have extended her life but also would have meant terminating her pregnancy. The day after Life's birth, doctors removed DeKlyen's feeding and breathing tubes, and she died Sept. 9. Life died Wednesday.

She had a rough day yesterday," Sonya Nelson, DeKlyen's sister-in-law said Thursday. "She was kind of up and down all day... They weren't able to get her blood gas levels where they needed to be."

Nelson, who's taking care of two of Life's five siblings, said she explained the death to her sister, Lelia.

"I told Lelia — who is 4 — Life was really sick, and she had to go live with Jesus and with mommy. And she said, 'She had to go, too? Why?' " Nelson said. She said the girls' father, Nick Deklyen, is not doing well as he faces the family's second tragedy in two weeks. "This is tough — this is just tough stuff."

and this is your beliefs, you poor deluded fools.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 14343
  • Darwins +577/-56
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 03:51:31 PM »
The way I think the mother saw it is:
She's dead either way. Might as well take a chance at having the baby than kill it.
My names are many, yet I am One.
-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Religions need books because they don't have gods.

Online jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 8551
  • Darwins +373/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »
The way I think the mother saw it is:
She's dead either way. Might as well take a chance at having the baby than kill it.

I thought about that too. It sounds mean, but the short life of this baby is better than having it endure worse suffering. This baby was born way too early, and probably had little chance to survive (opinion). But the mom was also selfish about not terminating based on religious nonsense.

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 04:58:04 PM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:19:49 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline Jag

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3522
  • Darwins +473/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 06:29:38 PM »
I wonder what her other five children think about her decision.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Online jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 8551
  • Darwins +373/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 09:23:54 PM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?

She had almost no chance of actually saving the baby, and a good chance at keeping herself alive, even if for only five years - for her other children. I see religion as the excuse for anti-choice believers. I can't think of any other good reason to force women to have babies they do not want, can you?

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 10:37:43 PM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?

She had almost no chance of actually saving the baby, and a good chance at keeping herself alive, even if for only five years - for her other children. I see religion as the excuse for anti-choice believers. I can't think of any other good reason to force women to have babies they do not want, can you?

She had almost no chance of actually saving herself, and a fair chance of her baby surviving if she refused treatment. As far as I can tell, no one forced her decision. She made her choice and as far as I can tell, her choice wasn't influenced by some religious woo about not receiving medical treatment. If you are seeing something different please show me what you are seeing.



As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 10:45:57 PM »
I wonder what her other five children think about her decision.
s

I do too, now.

That's a darn fine question.

But, how do her existing children's concern factor into her right to choose what to do in this particular situation?
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6738
  • Darwins +485/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 02:58:28 AM »
But, how do her existing children's concern factor into her right to choose what to do in this particular situation?

In one way, not at all.  What I think is important - and what I think Jag meant - was what effect her decision would have on her other five children, one of whom is only four years old.

It also notes in the story that the five existing children have been slit up - "Nelson (is) taking care of two of Life's five siblings".  So the mother's decision has had a significant effect on her other children, splitting them up and placing them with (at least two) other families.  That would likely still have happened (give the expectancy of five years, and that one child is only four), but five years is a lot more time to have your mother with you, a lot more time with your brothers and sisters under the same roof.

Not forgetting that medicine continues to advance.  A five-year prognosis today takes us to 2022.  By then it may be extended another few years.....and by then, another few years.  While not certainty, there is reasonable grounds to believe that that four year old could have kept her mother into her early teens.

I find it difficult to imagine being in that situation.  But I think I would have to give more weight to my five children currently living and depending on me, that the very slim chance that a sixth child would live and (like the other five) be without a mother.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline stuffin

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1190
  • Darwins +65/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 07:21:12 AM »
That is a tough situation. Shame the cause and effect of her religious beliefs affected her living children to such a degree. Can't say I blame her for her decision. It sure sounds like she didn't give much thought to her other options.

I fully understand the need to protect the unborn, but there are situations that supersede that need.
The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong

Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong, So Wrong.

Online LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2018
  • Darwins +228/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 07:49:01 AM »
I'm wondering what her quality of life was expected to be during those five years.  Was she expected to eventually be healthy or would she always be somewhat weak and sickly?  Did she want to save her children from watching her die a long, slow death?  Or was her only concern the unborn child?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 8551
  • Darwins +373/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2017, 08:03:32 AM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?

She had almost no chance of actually saving the baby, and a good chance at keeping herself alive, even if for only five years - for her other children. I see religion as the excuse for anti-choice believers. I can't think of any other good reason to force women to have babies they do not want, can you?

She had almost no chance of actually saving herself, and a fair chance of her baby surviving if she refused treatment. As far as I can tell, no one forced her decision. She made her choice and as far as I can tell, her choice wasn't influenced by some religious woo about not receiving medical treatment. If you are seeing something different please show me what you are seeing.

She had no choice but to have that baby because her religious beliefs forbid abortion as an option. So if it were clear that the best option was abortion, she would never have even given it a thought. Again, my opinion based on my understanding of some people who choose religion over everything else in their decision making process.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12682
  • Darwins +338/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2017, 08:44:08 AM »
I think she made the wrong choice but the bottom line is it was her choice.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17142
  • Darwins +342/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 09:02:07 AM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?
really?  you need to ask that when these people have broadcast everywhere that they are "pro-life", which is indeed a religious thing?

what of her other children?  Why not choose to spend more years with them when there was an 8 week old embryo that was in a cancer ridden body that was not likely to survive? 

She decided that she and her religious faith were more important than her kids by making this choice.

it is too bad their god isn't "pro-life" or exists at all.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jdawg70

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4833
  • Darwins +1043/-10
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 09:55:59 AM »
Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.
I'm curious as to your reaction to this consideration:
This woman denied the rest of humanity a valuable data point with regards to treatment of cancer, for the sake of the coin flip of her unborn daughter's chance at life. The rest of humanity has been denied a valuable data point in helping us understand, possibly treat, possible cure, and possible prevent diseases that have, currently do, and will continue to take thousands and thousands of lives.  Sometimes painfully so.

I mean...that is what a clinical trial is. Maybe not quite as directly impactful as, say, allowing your heart to be transplanted to another human upon your death, but you could see how one might say a person was 'not heroic' in denying the possibility of another human a chance at life just because you don't want to give up your heart when you die.  Likewise, one might say that a person is 'not heroic' in denying the whole of society a chance to learn how to cure or prevent an ailment that will make other people dead in the future (and today, and in the past).

The above is a stretch, I know, but 'damn near heroic' feels like a stretch to me too.  I'm just curious if viewing this situation through a different lens changes anything for you.

Quote
She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?
She chose to deny the chance of better treatments and cures for cancers for millions today and in the future, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

I suspect just how slim really does kinda matter in the assessment, both in the case of 'giving her child a chance' and 'data from her involvement in a clinical trial would help save millions of lives from death and suffering'.

Quote
And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?
If part of her own assessment involved "and god will look after my family when I am gone" or "and my family will actually see me again - maybe not for a long time - but they will definitely see me again"...well, I dunno. There are lots and lots and lots of different possible ways religion could have had involvement with this choice.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline jdawg70

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4833
  • Darwins +1043/-10
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 09:57:16 AM »
really?  you need to ask that when these people have broadcast everywhere that they are "pro-life", which is indeed a religious thing?

Well it most often is a religious thing near as I can tell, but I do know several secular pro-lifers.

Just sayin'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Jag

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3522
  • Darwins +473/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 12:58:19 PM »
I wonder what her other five children think about her decision.
s

I do too, now.

That's a darn fine question.

But, how do her existing children's concern factor into her right to choose what to do in this particular situation?
I didn't suggest that they did. I simply put in a word for her other children, who lost their mother as well as the baby sister she died to birth.

TBH, this issue is at the heart of my original split from the Catholic Church, for banning abortion under any circumstances. When I realized that this meant an abortion to save a mother's life was not permitted, and essentially, fuck her already born children, I concluded that their position was heartless and near-insane.

In my personal opinion, what this woman chose was fucking selfish and stupid. That's MY PERSONAL OPINION.  It has no bearing whatsoever about my belief that she DOES have the right to make that choice.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17142
  • Darwins +342/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2017, 01:30:10 PM »
really?  you need to ask that when these people have broadcast everywhere that they are "pro-life", which is indeed a religious thing?

Well it most often is a religious thing near as I can tell, but I do know several secular pro-lifers.

Just sayin'.

this is a bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what rationale they have.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2017, 01:37:59 PM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?

She had almost no chance of actually saving the baby, and a good chance at keeping herself alive, even if for only five years - for her other children. I see religion as the excuse for anti-choice believers. I can't think of any other good reason to force women to have babies they do not want, can you?

She had almost no chance of actually saving herself, and a fair chance of her baby surviving if she refused treatment. As far as I can tell, no one forced her decision. She made her choice and as far as I can tell, her choice wasn't influenced by some religious woo about not receiving medical treatment. If you are seeing something different please show me what you are seeing.

She had no choice but to have that baby because her religious beliefs forbid abortion as an option.

Where are you getting that information?

jdawg pointed out, anecdotally, that there are secular pro-lifers. I would also like to point out that there are relious pro-choicers. How do you know that this womans religion prevented her from considering abortion in order to undergo treatment?
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2017, 02:06:07 PM »
Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.
I'm curious as to your reaction to this consideration:
This woman denied the rest of humanity a valuable data point with regards to treatment of cancer, for the sake of the coin flip of her unborn daughter's chance at life. The rest of humanity has been denied a valuable data point in helping us understand, possibly treat, possible cure, and possible prevent diseases that have, currently do, and will continue to take thousands and thousands of lives.  Sometimes painfully so.

I mean...that is what a clinical trial is. Maybe not quite as directly impactful as, say, allowing your heart to be transplanted to another human upon your death, but you could see how one might say a person was 'not heroic' in denying the possibility of another human a chance at life just because you don't want to give up your heart when you die.  Likewise, one might say that a person is 'not heroic' in denying the whole of society a chance to learn how to cure or prevent an ailment that will make other people dead in the future (and today, and in the past).

The above is a stretch, I know, but 'damn near heroic' feels like a stretch to me too.  I'm just curious if viewing this situation through a different lens changes anything for you.

Quote
She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?
She chose to deny the chance of better treatments and cures for cancers for millions today and in the future, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

I suspect just how slim really does kinda matter in the assessment, both in the case of 'giving her child a chance' and 'data from her involvement in a clinical trial would help save millions of lives from death and suffering'.

Quote
And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?
If part of her own assessment involved "and god will look after my family when I am gone" or "and my family will actually see me again - maybe not for a long time - but they will definitely see me again"...well, I dunno. There are lots and lots and lots of different possible ways religion could have had involvement with this choice.

The way I'm looking at this story is that we don't have any information about her thought processes as she was going through this. She may very well have taken into consideration her existing childrens life experience and her own and her husbands. Or she may have simply not thought about it at all and simply refused to even consider abortion because of her religious beliefs.

All I know is that I have nothing but sorrow for her and her family for having to go through this.

As to the clinical trial data point...that's a pretty heady argument. It kinda gets into a numbers game. What is the cost of one life compaired to the potential of helping save millions?

It's very abstract in my opinion and probably the furthest thing from many peoples minds as they are forced to make imediate, personal life and death decisions. I can't fault her decision on that front because in the grand scheme of things there will be plenty of other people who will participate in that clinical trial. It's not like she is the one person who spoiled the whole process by not participating. You know?

It really is all how you like at it I guess.
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Online jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 8551
  • Darwins +373/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2017, 02:08:21 PM »
From what I just read, I don't think the mother was being selfish. According to the Washington Times her best possible outcome from chemo therapy would be maybe an extra five years of life for her. Faced with the decision to terminate her pregnancy for a coin flip to give her just a few extra years in exchange for the coin flip of granting her unborn daughter a chance at life what she did was damn near heroic in my opinion.

She knew that if she went through chemo, the child would be lost. She chose to give her child a chance, no matter how slim, with the full knowledge that she, herself, wasn't long for this world either way.

How can you call that selfish?

And what does religion have to do with that particular choice?

She had almost no chance of actually saving the baby, and a good chance at keeping herself alive, even if for only five years - for her other children. I see religion as the excuse for anti-choice believers. I can't think of any other good reason to force women to have babies they do not want, can you?

She had almost no chance of actually saving herself, and a fair chance of her baby surviving if she refused treatment. As far as I can tell, no one forced her decision. She made her choice and as far as I can tell, her choice wasn't influenced by some religious woo about not receiving medical treatment. If you are seeing something different please show me what you are seeing.

She had no choice but to have that baby because her religious beliefs forbid abortion as an option.

Where are you getting that information?

jdawg pointed out, anecdotally, that there are secular pro-lifers. I would also like to point out that there are relious pro-choicers. How do you know that this womans religion prevented her from considering abortion in order to undergo treatment?

I made it clear that it was my opinion, and given her decision, it's not really that difficult to put her in the anti-choice group. Aside from that though, I still believe such a decision should mostly benefit her existing children as opposed to an unborn (perhaps depending on it's gestational age, which in this case was still very underdeveloped.)

I do understand that this was her choice, I just happen to believe it was selfish.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17142
  • Darwins +342/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 02:44:37 PM »
Where are you getting that information?

jdawg pointed out, anecdotally, that there are secular pro-lifers. I would also like to point out that there are relious pro-choicers. How do you know that this womans religion prevented her from considering abortion in order to undergo treatment?

this is how I know: 

Quote
"DeKlyen declined to participate in a clinical trial or undergo chemotherapy, options that would have likely extended her life but also would have meant terminating her pregnancy.

"We’re pro-life," her husband, Nick DeKlyen, told the Free Press next week. "Under no circumstance do we believe you should take a child’s life. She sacrificed her life for the child."
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/09/12/mom-cancer-treatment-baby/659388001/

Quote
Me and my wife, we are people of faith," Nick DeKlyen said. "We love the Lord with everything in us. We talked about it, prayed about it.

"I asked her, 'What are you thinking?' She said, 'All the treatments, I'm not doing any of them.' We went back to the surgeon. He said 'If you choose to do this, you will not live another 10 months. I promise, you will die.' 

"Even with everything on the table, my wife chose the baby."

The couple felt at peace.

"We’re pro-life," Nick DeKlyen said. "Under no circumstance do we believe you should take a child’s life. She sacrificed her life for the child."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/09/08/mom-terminal-brain-cancer-gives-birth-baby-girl/643432001/

from the gofundme page that they set up
Quote
As most of you have heard Carrie, our beautiful sister, wife, mother, daughter and aunt has been diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor called Glioblastoma. We know Carrie's fight will be hard, but our faith tells us she will win! Carrie is a wonderul wife to my brother Nick and the mother to 5 kids. Elijah 18, Isaiah 16, Neaveh 11, Lelia 3 and baby Jez 1. Nick will be stepping away from his vending business to be by his wife's side. With all the stress this family is going through we would like to help ease the financial stress they have due to loss of income. Please continue to lift the DeKlyen family up in prayer!

and
Quote
"Me and my wife, we are people of faith," Nick DeKlyen said. "We love the Lord with everything in us. We talked about it, prayed about it. Even with everything on the table, my wife chose the baby."
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/09/09/carrie-deklyen-cancer-life-michigan/649403001/

her church has a group that tries to convince women with unplanned pregnancies to have their children: http://www.reslife.org/outreach/

I think from this, we do know what she and her family were thinking. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 04:02:34 PM »
Okay.

So I guess my question for you is, why do you have a problem with that?

I am asking you this specific question because you seem to be more vocal in your opposition to the choice she made and more adamant about your objection because of the religious aspect of it. More specifically, do you recognize her right to make her own choice? Others have stated that while they disagree with the choice she made, they recognize her right to chose.



As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline jdawg70

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4833
  • Darwins +1043/-10
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 06:36:31 PM »
The way I'm looking at this story is that we don't have any information about her thought processes as she was going through this. She may very well have taken into consideration her existing childrens life experience and her own and her husbands. Or she may have simply not thought about it at all and simply refused to even consider abortion because of her religious beliefs.

All I know is that I have nothing but sorrow for her and her family for having to go through this.

As to the clinical trial data point...that's a pretty heady argument. It kinda gets into a numbers game. What is the cost of one life compaired to the potential of helping save millions?
Yeah I'm not sure that question really has an answer.  I think it's one of those questions that's simply incomplete - no answer can really hold up better than any other answer without additional context in the question.

Quote
It's very abstract in my opinion and probably the furthest thing from many peoples minds as they are forced to make imediate, personal life and death decisions. I can't fault her decision on that front because in the grand scheme of things there will be plenty of other people who will participate in that clinical trial. It's not like she is the one person who spoiled the whole process by not participating. You know?

I'm not all that worried that you don't ascribe any moral fault to her decision.  That's fine.  I can see how her actions could be viewed as selfish, though I'm not really prepared to say that she probably made her decisions based on a "what's best for me" point of view.  One can act and behave selfishly without explicitly intending to do so.  Like decisions made with inappropriately weighted considerations of other people (e.g. neglecting to sufficiently consider the impact on persons x, y, and z like her other children, putting too much consideration of the impact on persons a, b, and c like possibly god or a growth that could one day be a person[1]).

I am curious: had she chosen differently, would you ascribe her any moral fault?

Quote
It really is all how you like at it I guess.
Assuming you mean 'look at it' and yeah that's the case.
 1. Yes I am aware we likely still disagree on where this line is, though I'm guessing neither of us really consider it a 'line'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline jdawg70

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4833
  • Darwins +1043/-10
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 06:41:01 PM »
this is a bit of a tangent, but I'm curious what rationale they have.

I have never gotten any further than "I believe that life begins at conception."

'Life' remains vaguely defined but includes 'sentience'.  It begins at conception.  That seems to be an incredibly broad way to define life.  Like, one variable that distinguishes between 'life' and 'not life' or 'sentient' and 'not sentient' - seems ridiculous.  But that's me.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 07:01:36 PM »
I am curious: had she chosen differently, would you ascribe her any moral fault?

No.

It was her choice to make. I would completely understand if she chose to abort the fetus and try chemo.

I would not fault her for trying everything she could to extend her life for the rest of her family or even just for herself.

I am pro choice but I believe that life begins at conception. I have never minced words on this particular subject. I believe that abortion is murder because it is premeditated and results in the termination of a life. However, I am more vehemently against rescinding hard fought rights. People should absolutely be free to exercise sovereignty over their own body and I will never find myself in the same position as she found herself in.

So, who am I to judge her, or any other woman's choice?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 07:04:28 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline jdawg70

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4833
  • Darwins +1043/-10
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2017, 08:49:07 PM »
No.

It was her choice to make. I would completely understand if she chose to abort the fetus and try chemo.

I would not fault her for trying everything she could to extend her life for the rest of her family or even just for herself.

I am pro choice but I believe that life begins at conception. I have never minced words on this particular subject. I believe that abortion is murder because it is premeditated and results in the termination of a life. However, I am more vehemently against rescinding hard fought rights. People should absolutely be free to exercise sovereignty over their own body and I will never find myself in the same position as she found herself in.
(Red = me)

For clarity:
A woman decides to have an abortion because she is not ready to take care of a child.  There is no immediate threat to her well-being should she go through with the pregnancy.  Is this woman guilty of a) a moral wrong and/or b) a criminal offense?

A woman decides to euthanize her grandmother because she is not ready to take care of an adult.  There is no immediate threat to her well-being should she let her grandmother move in.  Is this woman guilty of a) a moral wrong and/or b) a criminal offense?

Quote
So, who am I to judge her, or any other woman's choice?
A person who has an opinion on what does or does not constitute 'murder'.  Not saying you have to judge[1] her or anything.  Just saying, you are allowed to form an opinion of this act.
 1. Though you did.  In the positive (damn near heroic), but still a judgement.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Online Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4616
  • Darwins +308/-36
  • Gender: Male
  • 7.499 billion people chose non violence today.
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2017, 10:32:37 PM »
No.

It was her choice to make. I would completely understand if she chose to abort the fetus and try chemo.

I would not fault her for trying everything she could to extend her life for the rest of her family or even just for herself.

I am pro choice but I believe that life begins at conception. I have never minced words on this particular subject. I believe that abortion is murder because it is premeditated and results in the termination of a life. However, I am more vehemently against rescinding hard fought rights. People should absolutely be free to exercise sovereignty over their own body and I will never find myself in the same position as she found herself in.
(Red = me)

For clarity:
A woman decides to have an abortion because she is not ready to take care of a child.  There is no immediate threat to her well-being should she go through with the pregnancy.  Is this woman guilty of a) a moral wrong and/or b) a criminal offense?

A woman decides to euthanize her grandmother because she is not ready to take care of an adult.  There is no immediate threat to her well-being should she let her grandmother move in.  Is this woman guilty of a) a moral wrong and/or b) a criminal offense?

Quote
So, who am I to judge her, or any other woman's choice?
A person who has an opinion on what does or does not constitute 'murder'.  Not saying you have to judge[1] her or anything.  Just saying, you are allowed to form an opinion of this act.
 1. Though you did.  In the positive (damn near heroic), but still a judgement.

There are some very subtle nuances to my thought process regarding life and death decisions that I haven't figured out how to explain in a cogent manner. But my answer to both parts of your first scenario is again...no. The first part for reasons I already explained and the second part...because it's legal.

To your second scenario, that is still something that I wrestle with and I would need a lot more information of the specific circumstances to come to a judgement.
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17142
  • Darwins +342/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: child dies after mother dies from cancer after refusing chemo
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2017, 08:25:15 AM »
Mr. B, why do you consider life starting at "conception"?   And if you can't cogently argue for something, I would say that should tell you something about the quality of your argument.

As Jdawg pointed out, you have indeed made judgements about this person, and by that, judgments about other women. 

The woman does have the choice to make.  However, making it based on a baseless bit of nonsense is ridiculous and has caused harm to others from her selfish action.  That's why have a problem with it.  This is why I also have a problem with Christian Scientists and other theistic idiots who insist that their god will heal them.  You insisted that no one could demonstrate that this woman made her decision based on religion.  Now that I have, do you agree that it was religion or not?  and if not why? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/