Author Topic: Genesis 3:22  (Read 737 times)

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Offline foke

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Genesis 3:22
« on: June 19, 2017, 01:06:48 PM »
I guess most of you have heard christians frequently ask the question "who are you to judge God?" or "on what grounds do you judge God?"

Genesis 3:22 says that after man has eaten from the forbidden tree, he has become like God, knowing good and evil.

Do you think backing up the assertion that we can rightfully judge God's actions throughout the Bible due to us being like him (his words), knowing what is good and what is evil, with this verse, would constitute a valid and well-founded argument?

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 01:16:27 PM »
yep, per that verse, humans can indeed judge this god.  the only thing that, per that book of nonsense, makes us less than this god is living forever. 

most Christians will use special pleading and/or the might equals right argument that we can't judge it but it can judge us
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 01:44:12 PM »
It's worth a shot I think!

Plus, pointing out all the bad that God carried out in the bible might also help - at least with some Christians.

Still, the more brainwashed the Christian/Christians in question the less chance any logical/sensible/good argument will get through to them imho. :-(

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 04:45:45 PM »
   I guess the "who are you to judge god" question made me think about the movie I watched this past weekend.  Funny, the argument we have here all the time, is, what is good and evil and how do we decide, and that Christians would say - "That is only for God to judge."

   So  I watched the movie "The Shack" this weekend.  I had made it through 1/2 of the book years ago.  A spoiler alert for those that plan to watch the movie - stop reading.

_________________________________

   So an average family with 3 children has the youngest girl murdered by a predator, and the father, who was beaten as a child by his own alcoholic father, and has been luke-warm towards the idea of god through his life, spirals into depression and the family begins to fall apart.

   He receives an invitation in the mailbox (George Burns/John Denver "Oh God" style) from god, to meet god at the mountain cabin "Shack" where his daughter was murdered.  Thinking it a horrible joke, for a strange reason, can't get past the idea, and, armed, heads back to this shack.  Just as he tears through the cabin, curses god for not showing up like he figured, and puts the gun to his head, he meets the trinity.

     God as an African American motherly type.  Jesus as a carpenter.  And the holy spirit as a creative gardener woman.  The 3 try to explain this "god" idea to this now angry skeptic, while telling him that preventing this death is not how the trinity works.

   The movie is well done, while predictably syrupy and tough to watch as a non-believer.  But I persisted.   So this guy meets a fourth entity - wisdom.  While arguing with wisdom about judging "good vs evil", wisdom insists that the man choose which of his 2 remaining children he would love, and which he would condemn.  It is a step for the man towards learning an unconditional love of our fellow man, knowing that he couldn't possibly not love one of his children.  But then the real lesson comes in - forgiveness.   

   And, looking around relationships, families, our fellow man (even the most hideous) - actually, the idea of forgiveness needs no deity to be an important lesson for us.  Human nature is most strong in refusing to forgive - and eats us alive - and that becomes the lesson of the movie.
____________________________________________

So I would say -as a bridge between believers and non-believers -  that good and evil are not something we can define, or can judge, and do not even seem to exist.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 04:57:00 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 04:08:06 AM »
I think I could argue this both ways if pushed. After all, the verse only says 'like gods' and it is only in the sense of good and evil. Maybe judging actions of a god without knowing the 'big picture' means we might miss out on the reason that what seems like an evil act is really for the good of humanity - though a flood that kills the whole world seems a bit extreme!


The problem, I suspect, lies in the fact that most Christians don't read their holy book carefully and then don't even then stick with what it says. As an example, look at those who claim creationism, as in Genesis is true but the fail to notice what the world generated in Genesis looks like - hint, it is not like our world! Christians usually are happy with the failure of A and E and don't read on so are unlikely to have even thought of 3:22.


We should try it next time we have a poster who argues this way!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 05:00:04 AM »
our fellow man (even the most hideous) - actually, the idea of forgiveness needs no deity to be an important lesson for us.  Human nature is most strong in refusing to forgive - and eats us alive - and that becomes the lesson of the movie.
____________________________________________

Good and interesting point Shnozzola.

I can certainly appreciate certain reasons as to why such an aim is considered highly worthy. Going to admit though, that forgiveness towards people with characteristics I find especially vile or who are generally vile all round (who deliberately set out to hurt me in my past even after I did my best to be decent to them or tried to get onto better terms with them in some other way) is not something I've so far found achievable.

I can certainly move on from such people easily enough (in terms of getting on with my every day life and once I've been out of any contact with them for some while). Bit by bit, I will think about them less and less until I can reach a point I've at least mostly forgotten about them.

Still, to me that's not truly forgiveness on its own. I might have reached a point when original strong bad emotions are no longer eating me alive but, to me true forgiveness means no longer feeling anything negative at all towards said other person and being at peace with whatever happened.

Plus, amongst these experiences, I had one where I just about did manage to (mostly) forgive someone for past wrong doing and it seemed to me (for a time) this unexpectedly positively influenced their treatment of me. However, at best this was only a short to medium term thing, before they fast went back to deliberately treating me like absolute shit again - on a repeated basis.

It was hard enough reaching a point of true forgiveness the first time round. Now I'm finding it impossible (so far) this second time round. I felt my initial forgiveness led to my allowing myself to be a mug for that person if anything. They have shown themselves to truly be amongst the ugliest people I've ever had anything to do with and (so far as I can tell) that they don't want to seriously consider changing for anyone - as they're actually happy with being like this.

Maybe after I've reached a point of better self forgiveness, for letting myself get so easily fooled/made a mug out of, one day I'll find this easier. Still, can't help having my strong doubts. Especially as I see that this person is a danger to others, to a point, because of their issues.

Sadly, I just don't think forgiveness is always possible. :-(

Edit: For me I think, to a point, forgiveness can be a good and worthwhile aim. But I think a couple of important questions to ask here are:

1.) Is forgiveness always realistically possible?

2.) Is it even always necessary so long as one can forget or mostly forget about the wrong doer in question?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 05:39:54 AM by Emma286 »

Online velkyn

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
      The movie is well done, while predictably syrupy and tough to watch as a non-believer.  But I persisted.   So this guy meets a fourth entity - wisdom.  While arguing with wisdom about judging "good vs evil", wisdom insists that the man choose which of his 2 remaining children he would love, and which he would condemn.  It is a step for the man towards learning an unconditional love of our fellow man, knowing that he couldn't possibly not love one of his children.  But then the real lesson comes in - forgiveness.   

at the risk of derailing the thread, uggh.   funny how Christianity isn't about the above at all.  And this god does pick and choose.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 08:09:24 AM »
Christianity cannot exist without Judaism. To call oneself a "Christian" and be completely ignorant of the history of Judaism and the people involved is the core problem. Imagine a future where Mormonism is more popular than Christianity. Imagine a vast expanse of time where the ability to clearly see the invention of Mormonism for what we all know it to be - a rewriting and hijacking of Christianity, which is itself a hijacking of Judaism. Future humans debating the reality of Mormonism as though it has real merit. Or better yet, Scientology!

The real tragedy of these "religions" and their adherents is pure ignorance of their own true history. And modern humans have made the problem far, far worse - especially modern American "Christians." Belief with little to no thought, passed down from parents to children and simultaneously molded to fit whichever narrative suits the teacher. There is no other possible outcome from such a thing than the evolution of the source into something that would be unrecognizable to its original creators. Place an ancient Hebrew into a modern Christian church to hear modern humans using Genesis 3:22, or any other piece of the original writings and watch the hilarity and confusion ensue.

When I first started arguing with "Christians", I would cherry-pick scripture from any place that suited my argument. I would try to place the person into what I knew would be uncomfortable for them - or so I thought. It wasn't long before I realized that not only is it rather pointless, it was not really satisfying. I was doing exactly what most "Christians" do when they are attempting to support their beliefs, or argue about "teh gays", or rant about abortion. Cherry-picking and deciding on their own that a few words from ancient humans should override centuries of human evolution in morals and thought.

I believe that the major Abrahamic religions did some good things in between the horror we see in their books. They stumbled upon commonly held ideas about behavior and codified them in the best ways they could for the time they lived. Whether we like it or not, humans had to evolve in their morals and ethics and behaviors, and religion was obviously a huge part of that evolution. It does not mean we have to keep them around, just accept their contribution and learn from it.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 09:57:10 AM »
I guess most of you have heard christians frequently ask the question "who are you to judge God?" or "on what grounds do you judge God?"

Genesis 3:22 says that after man has eaten from the forbidden tree, he has become like God, knowing good and evil.

Do you think backing up the assertion that we can rightfully judge God's actions throughout the Bible due to us being like him (his words), knowing what is good and what is evil, with this verse, would constitute a valid and well-founded argument?

I suppose it is a valid argument but it is easy to dismiss within the context of Christianity.

Yes, humans acquired the capacity to make moral judgments, like god.  It does not necessarily follow that our judgments are correct in comparison to god.  Just as we are made in his image - like him but of 'less quality' per se - so is our capacity for moral evaluation.  Like his, but of 'less quality'.

And if you want something to back that up...well, somethingsomethingsomethingfaithyadayadabible-inspiredwhodowhatnowMysterious WaysTMlulz.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 10:59:34 AM »
Of course there is the reverse....

Really, and most likely by far, is that humans created god in their own image. They gave him the same emotions as humans and created stories about him. So the creators of god are quite entitled to judge the stories they wrote about him. After all, god is just a story so anyone can say and judge any action in a  story...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 04:19:56 PM »

1.) Is forgiveness always realistically possible?

2.) Is it even always necessary so long as one can forget or mostly forget about the wrong doer in question?

I guess forgiveness needs defined, by what I am saying.  Here is how I am defining it.

Mustering up genuine compassion for those who have wronged us, instead of allowing anger toward them to eat away at us.

   Look at what is happening worldwide right now.  Western leaders call ISIS evil. The west is called "The Great Satan".  How long will we all keep it up?  U.S., Britain, Syria, France, Afghanistan, and on and on.    Let's see if we can match Israel and Palestine.  Can we continue the violence for a hundred years?  Certainly no side would ever forgive the other side.  Neither side sees themselves as wrong, why should anyone forgive......
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 04:21:46 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 03:08:56 PM »

1.) Is forgiveness always realistically possible?

2.) Is it even always necessary so long as one can forget or mostly forget about the wrong doer in question?

I've had that question with number 1 and to be honest, I don't think it's always possible.  If someone killed someone very important to you, like your daughter, could your forgiveness really be sincere?  I just can't see it.  Look at the case of Mark Klaas.  In 1993, his daughter Polly was kidnapped, raped and murdered by an intruder to his home during a sleepover she had with friends.  In court at his sentencing, the murderer claimed that Polly said her father Mark had sexually abused her.  This absolutely enraged Mark and he had to be held back from attacking the murderer. 

Ask a Christian Question 1 to their face - and pay close attention to their body language and facial expressions when first asked the question.  Then take the inevitable answer (of course I would forgive, just as Jesus forgave us our sins) with a grain of salt.  Talk is very cheap - incredibly, there are those Christians that would forgive.  The families of the victims of Dylan Roof were incredible but what anger are they holding back?  Did they really completely forgive, or are they trying to give off an appearance of being Christian?  Who knows?  Either way, it was an amazing display of self control.  However, I think they were the exception rather than the rule when it comes to Christians (or anyone).  Why should we have to forgive someone for doing something like that?  It's silly.  I wonder if those that genuinely believe in the concepts of forgiveness and heaven have fears about having to encounter these killers in heaven? 


What does it even mean to forgive, but never forget?  Have you ever heard that expression before?  I don't understand it.  The connotation there seems to indicate that you haven't really forgiven, because it will always haunt you and you will always harbor anger.

On question 2, you hope the wrong doer does come to you and ask for forgiveness.  Who knows if that even will happen?  If it's something minor, it gives you the ability to say "That's fine, you're forgiven, but try not to do that to other people moving forward."  That type of forgiveness might be good, because it can prevent this person from continuing to make the same mistakes over and over without acknowledging it's wrong.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 04:51:08 PM »
I guess most of you have heard christians frequently ask the question "who are you to judge God?" or "on what grounds do you judge God?"

Genesis 3:22 says that after man has eaten from the forbidden tree, he has become like God, knowing good and evil.

Do you think backing up the assertion that we can rightfully judge God's actions throughout the Bible due to us being like him (his words), knowing what is good and what is evil, with this verse, would constitute a valid and well-founded argument?
We judge people in the first instance - which is probably the context of your post - mainly in an attempt to understand why they did what they did. Even if we are angry, if there is a good enough explanation, then we stop being angry and we assess the situation and (i) understand and forgive, or (ii) decide if any action is required in order to prevent a repetition.

In our culture, despite attempts by those in control to prevent us, we do this to the mighty each election and by pressure of public opinion. The results are mixed but, because the system works sometimes, we put up with it.

God appears to be different. He never explains, and to prevent us from causing Him endless bother, he has instructed his prophets to tell us "Don't call Him, He'll call you, if He thinks it necessary... but He never does call and explain - so don't do it."

Meanwhile back in Genesis 3:22
Ge:3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ge:3:23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


God actually says that, only in respect of knowing good from evil, are we the same as Him and his family.

The next bit is a jump - you have to decide if you feel confident enough to imagine (with authority) to imagine the life of El (God) and his wife, sons and daughters and how they would treat Him1. Do we think that his family sit down to dinner and perhaps a daughter might say "Dad, why the killing of the First-Born in Egypt?" couldn't you have achieved the same thing with less death?"

If that does happen, He doesn't have much excuse for, although He has done things we don't understand, He has never said anything we don't understand2 - it appears that because we cannot understand why He does things - even things that seem obviously good3 - we cannot judge Him as we want to and despite His knowing that we can (We can tell good from evil.)

He is being an arse - and He knows He is. And yet He wants us to love him.

An alternative view that fits with the imaginative fairy tales of Bronze-Age goatherders is "None of us peasants can judge the King." I think that this is probably the prohibition of judging that is implied.

It is unfortunate that God is timeless, otherwise He would have realised that His prime creation4 has moved on a bit and has created a world that supports 700 times more people than when he was a bit more visible.

I hope this helps.


1 The answer is "Yes, I do", because imagining these things is just the same as "imagining creation - nobody was there to write it all down
2 although the exact details are often vague or contradictory and open to other interpretations.
3 Of course, they might not be good. You may think it is good that He showed you where your car keys are, but perhaps He has decided to make you drunk and run down a doctor whom He does not like.
4 i.e. me, followed by you...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 04:55:01 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 07:31:15 PM »

1.) Is forgiveness always realistically possible?

2.) Is it even always necessary so long as one can forget or mostly forget about the wrong doer in question?

I guess forgiveness needs defined, by what I am saying.  Here is how I am defining it.

Mustering up genuine compassion for those who have wronged us, instead of allowing anger toward them to eat away at us.

   Look at what is happening worldwide right now.  Western leaders call ISIS evil. The west is called "The Great Satan".  How long will we all keep it up?  U.S., Britain, Syria, France, Afghanistan, and on and on.    Let's see if we can match Israel and Palestine.  Can we continue the violence for a hundred years?  Certainly no side would ever forgive the other side.  Neither side sees themselves as wrong, why should anyone forgive......

Thanks for explaining. Guess we were thinking of the same term in somewhat different ways! I was meaning in the sense of one person forgiving someone else from a distance away for a past wrong/past wrongs (in cases of the people in question not having any actual involvement with each other) as opposed to people involved in a violent war - as in the cases you highlighted.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:33:56 PM by Emma286 »

Offline albeto

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 08:47:23 PM »
I guess most of you have heard christians frequently ask the question "who are you to judge God?" or "on what grounds do you judge God?"

Genesis 3:22 says that after man has eaten from the forbidden tree, he has become like God, knowing good and evil.

Do you think backing up the assertion that we can rightfully judge God's actions throughout the Bible due to us being like him (his words), knowing what is good and what is evil, with this verse, would constitute a valid and well-founded argument?

I don't think you'd find much success with it, to be honest. I think the greater argument is the one that suggests mankind can't know right from wrong *perfectly,* which is why obedience is such a virtue. So sure, A&E have become like yahweh, but a flawed version. Ultimately, if A&E were just like god, they wouldn't need a savior, which is the whole point of the xian religion.

Offline albeto

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 08:54:34 PM »
I can certainly move on from such people easily enough (in terms of getting on with my every day life and once I've been out of any contact with them for some while). Bit by bit, I will think about them less and less until I can reach a point I've at least mostly forgotten about them.

I am right there with you. I sometimes wonder if xians put such an emphasis on forgiveness in order to drive home the point that we are supposed to understand that we are just as repulsive to god as the people who hurt you are to you. But oh, how jesus saves us! We owe him everything, right? We owe him our gratitude because he accepts such crappy people as we are.

I have a friend whose narcissistic ex-husband used to treat her like this. The gaslighting she endured and internalized was phenomenal. Heartbreaking.

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 05:08:28 AM »

1.) Is forgiveness always realistically possible?

2.) Is it even always necessary so long as one can forget or mostly forget about the wrong doer in question?

I've had that question with number 1 and to be honest, I don't think it's always possible.  If someone killed someone very important to you, like your daughter, could your forgiveness really be sincere?  I just can't see it.  Look at the case of Mark Klaas.  In 1993, his daughter Polly was kidnapped, raped and murdered by an intruder to his home during a sleepover she had with friends.  In court at his sentencing, the murderer claimed that Polly said her father Mark had sexually abused her.  This absolutely enraged Mark and he had to be held back from attacking the murderer.

Yup, exactly YCHTT. And only did that murderer do the crimes he did to that victim, he lacked remorse from the sounds of things (making up something like that seems to indicate a lack of remorse to me anyways). Plus, he's still a danger to others like the victim. I imagine that the father most likely found the idea that he could go and do that kind of thing to another girl (as well as going through the suffering he did in relation to his daughter) pretty horrifying! I think All would make it extra seriously tough (if not outright impossible) to forgive!

Ask a Christian Question 1 to their face - and pay close attention to their body language and facial expressions when first asked the question.  Then take the inevitable answer (of course I would forgive, just as Jesus forgave us our sins) with a grain of salt.  Talk is very cheap - incredibly, there are those Christians that would forgive.  The families of the victims of Dylan Roof were incredible but what anger are they holding back?  Did they really completely forgive, or are they trying to give off an appearance of being Christian?  Who knows?  Either way, it was an amazing display of self control.  However, I think they were the exception rather than the rule when it comes to Christians (or anyone).  Why should we have to forgive someone for doing something like that?  It's silly.  I wonder if those that genuinely believe in the concepts of forgiveness and heaven have fears about having to encounter these killers in heaven?

Appreciating where you're coming from with all that. I have heard of the idea of forgiving for our own sake rather than for the other person /in cases where hate/the desire for revenge can constantly eat away at us/become an unhealthy obsession. It's about letting go of the desire to do the other person harm/get back at them in some way so that we can reach a more healthy clear headed state of mind and positively move forward with our own lives.

I think the ideas make a lot of sense! But to me, that just doesn't feel quite the same as forgiveness. It may be a different valid definition of forgiveness to consider, compared to other ideas of forgiveness, and I agree that it's a worthwhile goal if things like hate/the desire for revenge etc really are eating away at somebody to the degree it hugely negatively impacts their life. I'm thinking that this is probably down to how I was personally brought up with ideas of forgiveness. But, to me, that idea of forgiveness only seems like half the job being completed!

This is because, to me, forgiveness is only real forgiveness if the letting go of hate/the urge to have revenge etc is accompanied by some kind of strong positive good will towards said other person - when the positive good will gives extra motivation to want to get rid of the hate/urge for revenge to start with!

Otherwise, again, I just see that only half of the goal has been achieved. Certainly it strikes me that it's a heck of a lot better than nothing! I definitely see that it can lead to an amount of healthy forgetting and moving on with one's life (when otherwise this might not have been possible) and it benefits the wrongdoer in the sense that they don't end up harassed/stalked/attacked or harmed in some other way. But still...

What does it even mean to forgive, but never forget?  Have you ever heard that expression before?  I don't understand it.  The connotation there seems to indicate that you haven't really forgiven, because it will always haunt you and you will always harbor anger.

I think that this means something along the lines of 'drop the hate/need for revenge' but still keep in mind what happened to avoid leaving yourself open to a repeated wrong doing from the same person.

I don't think it means to constantly think about what happened, just not to entirely forget it.

Seem to remember that's the case from Tiny Buddha articles I've read on the subject of forgiveness before and (probably) similar! :-)


On question 2, you hope the wrong doer does come to you and ask for forgiveness.  Who knows if that even will happen?  If it's something minor, it gives you the ability to say "That's fine, you're forgiven, but try not to do that to other people moving forward."  That type of forgiveness might be good, because it can prevent this person from continuing to make the same mistakes over and over without acknowledging it's wrong.

Yup, some people couldn't give less of a toss about being forgiven. Still, of course, there are cases when people do and seek it out of course. Definitely agree that the more minor the wrong doing, to someone's mind, the easier it is for them to forgive. It's also my view that if the offence was accidental, rather than deliberate, that makes things easier too.

And yup, in cases when the forgiver says something like 'try not to do that to others' and the forgiven person can appreciate why it's morally right not to do the same thing to others, I agree that's a good thing!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 05:21:13 AM by Emma286 »

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 05:52:44 AM »
I can certainly move on from such people easily enough (in terms of getting on with my every day life and once I've been out of any contact with them for some while). Bit by bit, I will think about them less and less until I can reach a point I've at least mostly forgotten about them.

I am right there with you. I sometimes wonder if xians put such an emphasis on forgiveness in order to drive home the point that we are supposed to understand that we are just as repulsive to god as the people who hurt you are to you. But oh, how jesus saves us! We owe him everything, right? We owe him our gratitude because he accepts such crappy people as we are.

I have a friend whose narcissistic ex-husband used to treat her like this. The gaslighting she endured and internalized was phenomenal. Heartbreaking.

Not sure that I believe that every Xian is like that! But certainly suspect that a number of them most likely are! :-)

I am really sorry to hear about your friend.:-( I seriously hope that she is now recovered?

I have an ex best friend who married a very messed up abusive guy. Whether or not gaslighting was involved I don't know, but he did do things to mess with/manipulate her perceptions on purpose. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if that had been involved. He certainly very much seemed the type - although of course I could be wrong. One reason our friendship broke up was down to him. He's easily amongst the most messed up people I've ever met. Ironically enough, he was his own worst enemy as much as an enemy to anyone else though. Badly needed professional help. Last I heard he ended up in some kind of mental health hospital as an in patient out in Malta somewhere.

From what I could tell, I also went through some gaslighting experiences last year. It all just happened online and, luckily, I already had enough knowledge on different forms verbal abuse tactics to suspect this from said relevant person right away (when the relevant incidents happened). Didn't make being on the receiving end much less shocking/upsetting (at the time) than if this had happened with someone offline though. Surprise surprise when I confronted the person about what they were doing they denied that they were doing any abusing! I found it pretty incredible that they were making themselves so obvious (at least to anyone who knew how to spot the likely signs) and yet could still deny what they were doing as they did.

Another person who is as much their own worst enemy as anyone else's imo. I get the idea that verbally/emotionally abusive people often are.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 06:02:21 AM by Emma286 »

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 08:02:14 AM »
I don't think you'd find much success with it, to be honest. I think the greater argument is the one that suggests mankind can't know right from wrong *perfectly,* which is why obedience is such a virtue. So sure, A&E have become like yahweh, but a flawed version. Ultimately, if A&E were just like god, they wouldn't need a savior, which is the whole point of the xian religion.

that could be an argument, but there is nothing that the bible verse says indicates we don't know good and evil perfectly.  it seems implicit that the knowledge is equal. 

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22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2017, 08:38:13 AM »
Slightly away from good and evil, is old Noah who seems to know the difference between clean and unclean animals, becuase he loads differing numbers of each, well before Moses handed out the Law explaining which werw whcih. Clearly these early people were well able to deal with moral questions.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline albeto

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 11:45:53 AM »
that could be an argument, but there is nothing that the bible verse says indicates we don't know good and evil perfectly.  it seems implicit that the knowledge is equal. 

Not that bible verse, but others. The "His ways are not your ways" (Isaiah 55:8) shtick would be, I imagine, the most popular argument against using this bible verse for the purposes the OP suggests. Not to mention the verses that explain god knows everything, from what we do to what we think. How can you judge accurately if you're missing key information?

Offline albeto

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 11:48:40 AM »
Not sure that I believe that every Xian is like that! But certainly suspect that a number of them most likely are! :-)

I get that hanging on to past trauma is not good for one's mental and physical well-being, but as you say, one can learn to move on and not hang on to that past trauma without feeling like those traumatic behaviors were forgiven. Being manipulated into feeling guilty enough to forgive someone is just abusive, imo, and forgiveness is an integral part of xianity. At one point Jesus says you will be forgiven by god only if you forgive others (Matthew 6:14). Forgiveness isn't only good for the soul metaphorically according to the bible, it's necessary for salvation.

Another person who is as much their own worst enemy as anyone else's imo. I get the idea that verbally/emotionally abusive people often are.

I don't doubt it. I sometimes feel conflicted when I try and understand the impulses that influenced a person to do what they did. So much of their own behaviors can be results of trauma, but at the end of the day, we shouldn't be compelled to forgive someone we cannot or do not want to forgive. The xian religion not only attempts to emotionally manipulate a person to change their mind (emotions), but hangs a threat over their head of eternal damnation if they don't.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 12:10:15 PM »
that could be an argument, but there is nothing that the bible verse says indicates we don't know good and evil perfectly.  it seems implicit that the knowledge is equal. 

Quote
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

The issue is the other unstated assumptions that lead to various other implications.  Specifically:
1) God, in fact, exists.
2) This existing god's knowledge set is, in fact, complete.
3) 'Good' and 'evil' are factual aspects of reality.
4) Nothing can be better in any respect or in any fathomable or unfathomable means of comparison "be more" than this existing god.

The inescapable implication, if the above is asserted as true (unquestionably or otherwise), is that god knows good and evil better than anyone/anything did, does, or ever could.  Even if humans could be considered as having perfect knowledge of good and evil, the above assertions require that even perfect knowledge of good and evil is in some way less than god's knowledge of good and evil.  If that poses a problem, well, god works in Mysterious WaysTM, or he is fundamentally beyond pesky 'human understanding'[1]

If all of this sounds paradoxical or anything, well, somethingsomethingfaithsomethingorother.  If that doesn't do it, throw in the word 'divine' or possibly the 'agape' modifier.  Or unwrap the paradox via 'pretending it is not there' and pat yourself on the back for accepting the unacceptable or believing the unbelievable through the power of your own faith.  How do you know you're faithing correctly?  Why, by seeing just how accepting you are of the unacceptable or how much of the unbelievable you believe.

It is, damn near in a literal sense, foolproof.
 1. At least in this regard, insofar as the above assertions are understood.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 12:20:29 PM »
I thinnk we should add to the assumptions that the bible is completely true and the work work of this 'existing god' as, of course, the only information to be had about this god comes from the bible itself.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 12:26:25 PM »
Not sure that I believe that every Xian is like that! But certainly suspect that a number of them most likely are! :-)

I get that hanging on to past trauma is not good for one's mental and physical well-being, but as you say, one can learn to move on and not hang on to that past trauma without feeling like those traumatic behaviors were forgiven. Being manipulated into feeling guilty enough to forgive someone is just abusive, imo, and forgiveness is an integral part of xianity. At one point Jesus says you will be forgiven by god only if you forgive others (Matthew 6:14). Forgiveness isn't only good for the soul metaphorically according to the bible, it's necessary for salvation.


Yeah, I hate that whole kind of thing relating to Christianity. I suspect it's most likely the same kind of thing, at times, with the Islam religion (though I've read hardly anything of the Quran). I certainly do agree that this is abusive (as it's disrespecting/ignoring people's right to make their own choice regarding forgiveness). It also most definitely amounts to emotional blackmail.

Another person who is as much their own worst enemy as anyone else's imo. I get the idea that verbally/emotionally abusive people often are.

I don't doubt it. I sometimes feel conflicted when I try and understand the impulses that influenced a person to do what they did. So much of their own behaviors can be results of trauma, but at the end of the day, we shouldn't be compelled to forgive someone we cannot or do not want to forgive. The xian religion not only attempts to emotionally manipulate a person to change their mind (emotions), but hangs a threat over their head of eternal damnation if they don't.
[/quote]

I know what you mean (I think) about feeling conflicted when trying to understand the motivation for someone else's actions. I agree, it certainly can be that so much of their own behaviours can be results of trauma. I do tend to feel very sorry for those to whom that applies. They were undeniably once genuine victims themselves and were forced to suffer a lot of undeserved pain. If they have turned into abusers but feel genuine remorse over what they do/genuinely wish to change/are taking actions to try to change, then I personally think that they deserve to be forgiven. However, I also see that when they've turned into people who really couldn't care less about what harm they inflict on others, then I see that's totally different. Of course, that's just me though.

And yup, again totally agreeing that nobody should be coerced/forced into the decision of forgiving someone they can't or don't want to forgive.

Have to admit I don't know hardly anything about the Xian religion! Is this pretty similar to Christianity?

Offline albeto

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2017, 01:18:44 PM »
It also most definitely amounts to emotional blackmail.

Yes! That's it! Emotional blackmail. Emotional manipulation. Being led to feel guilty for feeling anger or resentment towards a certain person, even if those emotions are completely reasonable.

I agree with your summaries.

bty, "xian" is just shorthand for "christian." In greek, the X stands for "Christ." You might recognize it from X-mas. I just get lazy.

Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2017, 01:32:33 PM »
It also most definitely amounts to emotional blackmail.

Yes! That's it! Emotional blackmail. Emotional manipulation. Being led to feel guilty for feeling anger or resentment towards a certain person, even if those emotions are completely reasonable.

I agree with your summaries.

bty, "xian" is just shorthand for "christian." In greek, the X stands for "Christ." You might recognize it from X-mas. I just get lazy.

I didn't long look that word up and got a different definition! Guess there's more than one. Thanks for confirming!

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2017, 01:54:48 PM »
I have the ability to judge, God gave it to me when he made me. We judge things all the time. Why not God? I know cause the bible says.

I guess free will is not in play when it comes to judging God?
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Genesis 3:22
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2017, 02:43:48 PM »
Nope!

And I didn't notice any mention of God seeking forgiveness from anyone or anything for flooding the Earth as a result of an apparent temper tantrum.  That was murder!
 
I guess God is above feeling remorse. Even if he did commit one of the major sins!

« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:46:43 PM by Emma286 »