Author Topic: No True Scotsman  (Read 5269 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #116 on: May 26, 2017, 02:02:33 AM »
I think, Jst, that some exegesis of the passage to support your view would be very helpful. On the face of it, the passage does not seem to be a parable but rather a description of judgement times. It is not the same sort of genre as a parable which is just a story with a lesson attached. This passage is not that.


 Now, your interpretation is not as clear as you might want it to be. Tome, it is not clear exactly to whom in the accouont you are referring to as Christians as distinct from non-Christians. Please explain this. A link to a website with the same view and with some exegesis would help.

Yes it's about judgement times.  There are two groups.  There are the "nations" and Christ's "brothers".  Think of it in it's historical setting.  Christ sent his disciples out to go "door to door" and "house to house" to declare the good news to all the world, the nations.  They were not to take supplies but were to depend on the kindness of others to whom they were taking the message.

Does that help make it clear?


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2017, 02:31:59 AM »
It's not about how his followers are to treat one another.  In the parable his faithful followers are his "brothers".  It's about how outsiders treat them.

Well, this is a new one - after several pages of how Christ didn't mean what he said, now he's not even talking to Christians?  I have to say, this could look as if you were on a hiding to nothing and changed argument in mid-stream.....

So: your assertion now is that Christ's message "be nice, because you never know when it will be me" is not even targeted at Christians, but at those who don't believe him in the first place?  For an omnipotent being, that seems like a most peculiar thing to do.  After all, Jst, how much notice do you take of what the Hindu gods tell you?  When did you sit biting your nails over the things the Koran tells you are important?

The only reasons for saying such a thing are to try to influence non-believers (and assure free food for his wandering preachers) by appealing to fear.  "Do what I say, or you will burn"  Lovely message there for the people who may be wondering what this new preacher's message is - answer being, not so far from the Old Testament Yahweh as we might have supposed.

Or possibly something much more sinister?  As YCHTT indicated, there are severe risks in helping people.  Not every homeless person is violent or deranged, by any means, but the sad truth is that there is an increased likelihood that someone on the streets will have mental health problems.  So Christ is saying here to his NON-believers: "hey, take them in or else"......perhaps in the hope that by doing so he will thin the ranks on the non-believers?  That's dark - but coming from someone preaching fear rather than love, it does not surprise me.

After all, this isn't a god saying "help others, because its the right thing to do", or even just "help others, and you will get a reward".  No, this is "help others - or you will get an eternity of horrific punishment".  And that's not for the people who are hanging on his ever word, either.  No, this is for the billions who may never hear it, or not understand, or who have (quite valid) reasons for being afraid to do so.

This is a dark and disturbing Christ you are pushing here Jst - a Christ who appears to need to assert his will through fear, and threats of eternal horrific punishment (created by him, as all things are).  I guess Add Hom's quoted verses about coming with a sword, dividing the world in violence and discord, are spot on.

Is that really the god you want to offer to us?  More relevantly, perhaps - is this really the god that you choose to bow before?

Christ is the one doing the judging.  He is not some binary computer.  He is the same person he was while on earth.  He is kind, compassionate, and forgiving.  However, he did issue stinging judgements sometimes, not to the sinners and tax collectors, but to the apostate religious leaders. 

I don't think judgement day is something to fear.  Isaiah 9:1-7 paints a picture of judgement day.  Does that sound like something to fear or something this world desperately needs?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 02:33:30 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline wheels5894

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2017, 02:51:25 AM »
Fear? Well that depends on what the judge chooses. Let's see...


Suppose one of us were to be charged with a  crime and have to go to court. Let's say that person is accused of murder. So, the rules (laws) are there to explain precisely what the prosecution has to show, and, of course, how that person might be shown to be not guilty. The rules are quite clear and the justice system allows appeals if the judge fails to stick to the rules.


So, the trial begins as we all know and, in this case, the defence can easily show the person charged didn't go the crime because there is DNA evidence showing the person could not have done the crime. Of course in this case, our defendant went to court without fear, knowing the outcome before the event but, think, if that DNA evidence didn't exist would he not then be fearful? Would he not be worried that hi not guilty plea might not be enough to stop him being found guilty?


So, in this Day of Judgement event[1] we won't have a legal team to present the evidence - indeed, it seems, there will be no time to work on this. There is no appeal and the judge and jury rolled into one means that this is rough justice. Then the rules which one may have kept or broken? Are they all as clear as they might be? Can anyone be sure that they have kept them the right way - given the they are interpreted differently throughout the Christian world? After all,  people who have been worshipping Jesus as god could be trouble straightaway and those who have worshipped only YHWH and consider Jesus not to be god could have the same problems.


It is clear that fear will be important as no one person could be certain they have done the right things and believed the right things to get into heaven. How can this not be a day of fear?
 1. an event that is only a story with no evidence that it might actually happen!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 03:49:14 AM by wheels5894 »
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2017, 07:37:53 AM »
It is clear that fear will be important as no one person could be certain they have done the right things and believed the right things to get into heaven. How can this not be a day of fear?

I think if you've convinced yourself, in your mind, that you'll be a part of heaven, and there's no doubt, then you won't have fear.  You only need to look to ISIS and Al Qaeda to see that.  I agree with what you say on how it's unclear how you get to heaven.  But I think we can all see in his statement that jst knows, in his own mind, that he's going to heaven.  That's why he's not afraid.  As most of us have pointed out on several occasions, it's almost impossible to find a person that goes to church every week that thinks they're going to hell.  They've had it reinforced over and over by crowds of people that although they are bad people, they're forgiven.  So they're not afraid.

When you're told something over and over, you're going to start to believe it.  That's what has happened here.

Offline velkyn

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #120 on: May 26, 2017, 08:08:07 AM »
I don't think judgement day is something to fear.  Isaiah 9:1-7 paints a picture of judgement day.  Does that sound like something to fear or something this world desperately needs?

It’s always fun to read the bible when a TrueChristian tries to make believe that things are all peachy keen and their god is such a lovey thing.  It’s also interesting that someone who wants to claim that JC isn’t this god, uses a verse that says that this entity has to be this god or it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Quote
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as warriors rejoice when dividing the plunder. 4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor. 5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”
  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+9&version=NIV
Of course, the verses in the same chapter right after this, shows this god to be the usual vicious petty thing it is described as in the bible.  People will be “fuel for the fire”.  They will be compelled to eat their children.   So, jst, it’s just pathetic when you say that the world “needs” such horrors.   With such claims, it does seem evident that there is no reason to hope you are a decent human being.  We still have your supposed “messiah” that said people should be brought before him and murdered, and that everyone who doesn’t obey him should be murdered in Revelation.  So your claims of this being having the qualities of kindness, compassion and forgiveness are simply nonsense per your own bible.  I do have to wonder if you think no one has read the bible and that your nonsense will pass unquestioned.   
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
I think this discussion is at an end. JST had dodged all the important remarks he can't answer, and now we are left with an authoritative banality, with nothing to comment on, and no basis for empirical evidence.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Jag

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #122 on: May 26, 2017, 10:51:50 AM »
I think this discussion is at an end. JST had dodged all the important remarks he can't answer, and now we are left with an authoritative banality, with nothing to comment on, and no basis for empirical evidence.
The perfect description of every discussion we ever have with jst.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2017, 01:00:11 PM »
I think this discussion is at an end. JST had dodged all the important remarks he can't answer, and now we are left with an authoritative banality, with nothing to comment on, and no basis for empirical evidence.


Sadly, I think you are right. The important questions -


1. What is right belief for a True Christian?
2. How should a True Christian act?


remain unanswered and it still seems that atheists might get into heaven based on our actions - even if we don't want to! Sadly I think that is a far as it is  likely to go,
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2017, 04:20:02 PM »
So... God picked YOU, and GRACED YOU... and therefore, you can "help" the homeless man, but, there's this underlying thing that his or her own choices put them there, rather than, say, "Mental illness."  Or maybe they went bankrupt paying medical bills on their dying wife?   Who knows?

I think you touched on a really good point here.  Since believers are in an "us against the world" mental state, thinking that everyone is doomed that doesn't share their beliefs, they're going to see things, in general, in black and white.  Eternity in heaven or eternity burning in hell.  You're either a pure thinker sexually, and are married and have sex with no one else, or you're a sexual deviant.  There is no middle ground.  So in your example of the homeless guy, it fits the pattern.  Either you were picked by God and that's why you're doing well in life, or it's all your fault, and you lost everything.  You nailed it YRM_DM.  When it gets interesting is, like you say, when you're challenged in life and have your "Job" moment.

I am absolutely ashamed to admit this... but, when I was younger and I was firmly faithful, I was at a funeral for a man that I really admired.  He was a pastor, he left a widow and kids.  I felt terrible about the whole thing but, in my mind, I was working to try to figure out how God was going to use this for the greater good.   We'd just had some sermon recently about putting on the armor of God and I was trying to put it on.

So I said to one of the other pastors, who was great friends with the one who was killed, something along the lines of "Job" and "suffering" and that God would use this for the greater good in some way.  I was trying to show my trust that God would turn this event on it's ear and make the best of it.   It's not anything worse than other people were saying around me, but, the truth is, I was trying really hard to bolster my faith, and to bolster the pastor's faith, and to defend God.   My mind at that moment wasn't on the kids (who I really liked and my wife and I had actually baby-sat for)... my mind was on trying to say or do something to defend God and bolster my own faith.

At a funeral for a friend, my mind should have been on the loss and suffering that his family felt, but, I was one of those hard-core believing jerks who put faith above the real hurt of actual human beings who actually exist.

NOTE:  As far as I know, the surviving pastor quit that church and it had complete turnover of membership.  There was no "greater good" that came from it... the church just died.

But I'm far from the only believer who is guilty of this... I've had it thrown back in my face in my own times of suffering, which was a good lesson for me.   I don't know why I had to learn that the hard way, but, it was part of my growth process towards realizing how harmful faith can be, and how selfish religion can make a person.

Look at JST... most likely, he's a decent guy who wants to do good things... but with zero evidence, he sits here defending God...  out of one side of his mouth, he describes Jesus and what Jesus wants and what he's like, and out of the other side of his mouth, he's talked about us not being in a position to pass judgment on God or Jesus, because they have mysterious methods and know things that we don't know.

JST constantly judges Jehovah, Jesus, God... he just judges them perfect.   He judges them "above reproach".   Instead of questioning, he's judging them to be beyond question... but doesn't prove that.

I find that I've learned a little bit more about some of you fellow atheists as human beings than I've learned about the believers.   I know certain posters who are gay, or who came from religious backgrounds, or who have gay children, or who are swingers, or who do a lot of charitable work, or who work in science, or who came from catholic backgrounds.  I know people who are here because some hurt or harm lead them to a logical re-examination of their faith.  I know more about your lives than I know about the lives of believers or that they know about our lives... because they're here to defend God, not to make friends or get to know us.

In general, since I realized my faith was a delusion, years ago, I've been more tolerant, more accepting, more concerned with getting to know people...   when I was a believer, I wanted to be "a good believer".   Now I'm just a flawed person who tries my best.

Old Church Guy is the one believer who gets it right and at least makes an effort to show that he really cares about the way people feel when he's responding to them.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2017, 08:53:54 PM »
I think this discussion is at an end. JST had dodged all the important remarks he can't answer, and now we are left with an authoritative banality, with nothing to comment on, and no basis for empirical evidence.
i said that 2 pages ago.....yet here he is still trying to baffle with bullshit
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #126 on: May 26, 2017, 11:41:29 PM »
Fear? Well that depends on what the judge chooses. Let's see...


Suppose one of us were to be charged with a  crime and have to go to court. Let's say that person is accused of murder. So, the rules (laws) are there to explain precisely what the prosecution has to show, and, of course, how that person might be shown to be not guilty. The rules are quite clear and the justice system allows appeals if the judge fails to stick to the rules.


So, the trial begins as we all know and, in this case, the defence can easily show the person charged didn't go the crime because there is DNA evidence showing the person could not have done the crime. Of course in this case, our defendant went to court without fear, knowing the outcome before the event but, think, if that DNA evidence didn't exist would he not then be fearful? Would he not be worried that hi not guilty plea might not be enough to stop him being found guilty?


So, in this Day of Judgement event[1] we won't have a legal team to present the evidence - indeed, it seems, there will be no time to work on this. There is no appeal and the judge and jury rolled into one means that this is rough justice. Then the rules which one may have kept or broken? Are they all as clear as they might be? Can anyone be sure that they have kept them the right way - given the they are interpreted differently throughout the Christian world? After all,  people who have been worshipping Jesus as god could be trouble straightaway and those who have worshipped only YHWH and consider Jesus not to be god could have the same problems.


It is clear that fear will be important as no one person could be certain they have done the right things and believed the right things to get into heaven. How can this not be a day of fear?
 1. an event that is only a story with no evidence that it might actually happen!

I'm not at all impressed with the legal system you mention.  Innocent people get locked in cages and guilty people go free.  Justice has been largely reduced to which lawyer is more convincing or which can negotiate the best deal.    Guilty persons are locked in cages and subject to continual violence and sexual assault.  In prisons, conditions are so bad that that some kill  themselves.  Some, in effect volunteer for slavery just to get some reprieve.   It's pathetic. 

I'd much rather take my chances with Christ.

When Christ was on earth it was a time of judgement for the Jews which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.  Those that obeyed Christ fled "into the mountains" when they saw Jerusalem "surrounded by armies".  Likewise, on judgement day those that listen to Christ will be safe.

But before this happens wicked people will have pushed humanity to extinction.  "No flesh would survive" unless the days are "cut short".  It is on account of this that God's righteous judgement is coming.  There is no injustice.  And if history is any indicator, Chist is much more merciful and understanding than human judges.  He never condemned anyone for simply holding the wrong belief.  I don't know where you guys get this idea.  It's not in scripture.   

I am also quite sure that we don't envision judgement day the same.  It takes place under Christ's millenial rule.  People will not be judged on past deeds, but based on how they respond to Christ's rulership.  I see nothing to fear from his rulership.  We see an example of what his rulership is like in the scriptures by his interactions while on earth. 

But Christ was not lovey dovey all the time.  He cut no slack to those that opposed him, namely the apostate religious leaders.  He even prayed for the forgiveness of those carrying out the execution because of their ignorance.  So unless you are like those that Christ condemned while on earth, I see no reason for fear.     
 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #127 on: May 26, 2017, 11:51:38 PM »
I don't think judgement day is something to fear.  Isaiah 9:1-7 paints a picture of judgement day.  Does that sound like something to fear or something this world desperately needs?

It’s always fun to read the bible when a TrueChristian tries to make believe that things are all peachy keen and their god is such a lovey thing.  It’s also interesting that someone who wants to claim that JC isn’t this god, uses a verse that says that this entity has to be this god or it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Quote
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as warriors rejoice when dividing the plunder. 4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor. 5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”
  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+9&version=NIV
Of course, the verses in the same chapter right after this, shows this god to be the usual vicious petty thing it is described as in the bible.  People will be “fuel for the fire”.  They will be compelled to eat their children.   So, jst, it’s just pathetic when you say that the world “needs” such horrors.   With such claims, it does seem evident that there is no reason to hope you are a decent human being.  We still have your supposed “messiah” that said people should be brought before him and murdered, and that everyone who doesn’t obey him should be murdered in Revelation.  So your claims of this being having the qualities of kindness, compassion and forgiveness are simply nonsense per your own bible.  I do have to wonder if you think no one has read the bible and that your nonsense will pass unquestioned.

The Jews did experience those things through the withdrawal of his protection.  God does not protect people so they can do evil.  If you want to do evil then you're on your own in Satan's world, and it's full of horrors. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #128 on: May 27, 2017, 12:30:11 AM »
I think this discussion is at an end. JST had dodged all the important remarks he can't answer, and now we are left with an authoritative banality, with nothing to comment on, and no basis for empirical evidence.


Sadly, I think you are right. The important questions -


1. What is right belief for a True Christian?
2. How should a True Christian act?


remain unanswered and it still seems that atheists might get into heaven based on our actions - even if we don't want to! Sadly I think that is a far as it is  likely to go,

I think many atheists will be resurrected on the earth under the rulership of Christ.  I believe some of them will receive everlasting life.  Some of you seem to think I equate atheist with wickedness.  I do not.

1.  What is the right belief for a Christian?  I have given this significant thought.  And I would say it depends on the maturity of the Christian and their access to reliable shepherding.

I don't have a creed for you.  Christianity does not begin after X number of facts are known.  Christianity begins when one answers the call to "come follow me".  Scripturally speaking, the minimum requirements are laid out in Hebrews 11:6, John 17:3 and Rev 3:20.

2.  How should a Christian act?  A mature Christian lives a life free from the practice of sin and follows Christ's command to make disciples.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline wheels5894

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #129 on: May 27, 2017, 09:22:15 AM »
Fear? Well that depends on what the judge chooses. Let's see...


Suppose one of us were to be charged with a  crime and have to go to court. Let's say that person is accused of murder. So, the rules (laws) are there to explain precisely what the prosecution has to show, and, of course, how that person might be shown to be not guilty. The rules are quite clear and the justice system allows appeals if the judge fails to stick to the rules.


So, the trial begins as we all know and, in this case, the defence can easily show the person charged didn't go the crime because there is DNA evidence showing the person could not have done the crime. Of course in this case, our defendant went to court without fear, knowing the outcome before the event but, think, if that DNA evidence didn't exist would he not then be fearful? Would he not be worried that hi not guilty plea might not be enough to stop him being found guilty?

So, in this Day of Judgement event[1] we won't have a legal team to present the evidence - indeed, it seems, there will be no time to work on this. There is no appeal and the judge and jury rolled into one means that this is rough justice. Then the rules which one may have kept or broken? Are they all as clear as they might be? Can anyone be sure that they have kept them the right way - given the they are interpreted differently throughout the Christian world? After all,  people who have been worshipping Jesus as god could be trouble straightaway and those who have worshipped only YHWH and consider Jesus not to be god could have the same problems.


It is clear that fear will be important as no one person could be certain they have done the right things and believed the right things to get into heaven. How can this not be a day of fear?
 1. an event that is only a story with no evidence that it might actually happen!

I'm not at all impressed with the legal system you mention.  Innocent people get locked in cages and guilty people go free.  Justice has been largely reduced to which lawyer is more convincing or which can negotiate the best deal.    Guilty persons are locked in cages and subject to continual violence and sexual assault.  In prisons, conditions are so bad that that some kill  themselves.  Some, in effect volunteer for slavery just to get some reprieve.   It's pathetic. 

Quote
I'd much rather take my chances with Christ.


Really? When the teaching you get says Jesus is not part of the godhead but a man? Surely one should at least rely on the godhead not a lacky! I am surprised that a member of a group that uses the name of god in it's name rather than Christ should not be putting trust in YHWH - he who created all things etc.

Quote
When Christ was on earth it was a time of judgement for the Jews which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.  Those that obeyed Christ fled "into the mountains" when they saw Jerusalem "surrounded by armies".  Likewise, on judgement day those that listen to Christ will be safe.


The people of Israel were removed from Israel by the Romans not on any godly decree but because they would not obey Roman Law. It is a simply as that - an invader and occupier claims the power to rule and those that fail to obey them tend to get sent away - sometimes to death. There is only one Messianic element to this and that was the failure of the so-called Messiah to fulfil the Messianic prophecies and to lead and army to defeat the Romans.That is what the Jews then and now are waiting for in a Messiah. Oddly the nearest we have come to a Messiah is in 132CE when Simon Bar Kokhbar established a Jewish state but was killed in 135CE. 

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But before this happens wicked people will have pushed humanity to extinction.  "No flesh would survive" unless the days are "cut short".  It is on account of this that God's righteous judgement is coming.  There is no injustice.  And if history is any indicator, Christ is much more merciful and understanding than human judges.  He never condemned anyone for simply holding the wrong belief.  I don't know where you guys get this idea.  It's not in scripture.   

I am also quite sure that we don't envision judgement day the same.  It takes place under Christ's millennial rule.  People will not be judged on past deeds, but based on how they respond to Christ's ruler-ship.  I see nothing to fear from his ruler-ship.  We see an example of what his ruler-ship is like in the scriptures by his interactions while on earth. 

You know, I thought it was now taught that Jesus started ruling the earth in 1914[2]. In which case his rule is not to splendid yet. Of course, you are rather misusing a text about Roman persecution - one written to encourage Christians enduring - to second guess the future. This is a dangerous thing to do as Harold Camping learned! We all know how the world will end. For humans it will end with the earlier of the failure of the earth's magnetic field or the sun becoming a red giant in about 5 billion years time. Of course, with luck and skill, people will have gone into the heavens and will have established new world to live on in another galaxy perhaps. That we know - anything that involves the second coming or anyone is, how shall I put it.... hope overcoming reality. 

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But Christ was not lovey dovey all the time.  He cut no slack to those that opposed him, namely the apostate religious leaders.  He even prayed for the forgiveness of those carrying out the execution because of their ignorance.  So unless you are like those that Christ condemned while on earth, I see no reason for fear.     
 


Mmmmm.... wasn't it the religious leaders who were condemned? I rather think so. Yet those religious leaders were teaching their followers so would you not think that there would be problems for those followers too? So, let's look as religious leaders. As a bunch they are not very good at doing anything mentioned in Matt 25:31ff, are they. Indeed, being picky about rules, keep for money and unloving might be a picture of various religious leaders and groups of leaders. It sounds, then, that any religious person ought to seriously question whether those who lead them - those who set the rules and doctrine- whether these are people who would be rejected by Jesus like the Pharisees.
 2. Russell said this was the second coming date but like all other guesses it passed noticed.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #130 on: May 27, 2017, 12:24:59 PM »
I don't think judgement day is something to fear.  Isaiah 9:1-7 paints a picture of judgement day.  Does that sound like something to fear or something this world desperately needs?

It’s always fun to read the bible when a TrueChristian tries to make believe that things are all peachy keen and their god is such a lovey thing.  It’s also interesting that someone who wants to claim that JC isn’t this god, uses a verse that says that this entity has to be this god or it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as warriors rejoice when dividing the plunder. 4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor. 5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”
  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+9&version=NIV
Of course, the verses in the same chapter right after this, shows this god to be the usual vicious petty thing it is described as in the bible.  People will be “fuel for the fire”.  They will be compelled to eat their children.   So, jst, it’s just pathetic when you say that the world “needs” such horrors.   With such claims, it does seem evident that there is no reason to hope you are a decent human being.  We still have your supposed “messiah” that said people should be brought before him and murdered, and that everyone who doesn’t obey him should be murdered in Revelation.  So your claims of this being having the qualities of kindness, compassion and forgiveness are simply nonsense per your own bible.  I do have to wonder if you think no one has read the bible and that your nonsense will pass unquestioned.

The Jews did experience those things through the withdrawal of his protection.  God does not protect people so they can do evil.  If you want to do evil then you're on your own in Satan's world, and it's full of horrors.
is commanding followers to bash babies heads against rocks....and leaving the young girls alive so you can rape them evil.....a simple yes or no will be sufficient
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Offline velkyn

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #131 on: May 27, 2017, 01:01:11 PM »
The Jews did experience those things through the withdrawal of his protection.  God does not protect people so they can do evil.  If you want to do evil then you're on your own in Satan's world, and it's full of horrors.

that, not to put too fine a point on it, is simply bullshit and yet more excuses.  Your god visited such things on people intentionally, jst. it wasn't anyone else but the supposed "wrath" of this god that caused these horrors.
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By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another.20 On the right they will devour, but still be hungry;on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of their own offspring:21 Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh; together they will turn against Judah.
  You seem to think that no one read this nonsense and you can make up what you want.  Your god created and enforced these horrors.  You again either are terribly ignorant about what your bible actually says or you are intentionally trying to make false claims in order to make your religion seem less vile.     

I think many atheists will be resurrected on the earth under the rulership of Christ.  I believe some of them will receive everlasting life.  Some of you seem to think I equate atheist with wickedness.  I do not.

1.  What is the right belief for a Christian?  I have given this significant thought.  And I would say it depends on the maturity of the Christian and their access to reliable shepherding.

I don't have a creed for you.  Christianity does not begin after X number of facts are known.  Christianity begins when one answers the call to "come follow me".  Scripturally speaking, the minimum requirements are laid out in Hebrews 11:6, John 17:3 and Rev 3:20.

2.  How should a Christian act?  A mature Christian lives a life free from the practice of sin and follows Christ's command to make disciples.
funny how your bible disagrees with you.  So again no reason to believe you or your bible or any other Christian. Hmm, so if a Christain is to live without sin, then I should be able to expect you to be following the commandments that JC says are still in force, since this world is still around.  How many people have you murdered for working on the Sabbath, jst?  Or are you sinning by turning your head and not doing this god-spoken command?     

And for the claims of how Christians should be following JC and doing what he says, and then per the bible being able to do miracles like JC did, funny how no self-described Christian, including jst, can do what is promised.  Seems like you all are wrong. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:05:21 PM by velkyn »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #132 on: May 27, 2017, 01:26:52 PM »
Now you mention it Velkyn, I thought praying over an ill person and anointing them with oil was supposed to cure the person. It is sure there in the NT. So we have the problem? If this actually cures people, then the NT is true, gods probably exist and we can all be Christians. Of course, if it doesn't, that doesn't show the NT and Christianity is false - rather it shows we need another army of apologists to explain how, for mysterious reasons, healing can't be done today... or tomorrow.... or any time soon.


If Christianity were true we would not have hospitals, at least not the sort we have today. Churches would suffice for healing centres and there would be lots and lots of them to accommodate the huge number of Christians for worship if we knew god was likely to exist.


I await the day when children can be cured of cancer... quickly and painlessly. I think I may have to wait a long time though...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline velkyn

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #133 on: May 27, 2017, 02:14:53 PM »
exactly.  And these charlatans should be held accountable for the false claims of their religion since they can't possibly be real Christians.   Along with the oil thing, we have the promise of JC at the end of the gospel of Mark, and indeed, we should be able to find at least one Jew or Christian who can summon fire like Elijah.   Three ways to determine the truth of the matter and complete failure of modern believers.   

1.  the real secret to be a real Christian has been lost
2.  it was never true in the first place. 

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Offline Jag

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #134 on: May 27, 2017, 05:18:37 PM »
I'm not at all impressed with the legal system you mention.  Innocent people get locked in cages and guilty people go free.  Justice has been largely reduced to which lawyer is more convincing or which can negotiate the best deal.    Guilty persons are locked in cages and subject to continual violence and sexual assault.  In prisons, conditions are so bad that that some kill  themselves.  Some, in effect volunteer for slavery just to get some reprieve.   It's pathetic.
It is. It's a fucking travesty and a shameful reality in this country. We should all be horrified at what we allow to happen to our fellow citizens in our criminal justice system.

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I'd much rather take my chances with Christ.
What chances?

THIS is why YOU specifically piss me off so often. You CLEARLY SEE a huge social problem, a horrifying injustice, and your response is the most selfish fucking thing you could say.

You make it ALL ABOUT YOU.

Hammer Wielding Thor, people like you make me ill. You preach and preach and sanctimoniously fucking preach while doing nothing fucking practical to help anyone, and concern yourselves with only yourselves. Why the hell would any decent human being want to join your faith, with you demonstrating so vividly how shamefully selfish it makes you?

Take your biblical, scriptural silly stories and go sit in the corner until you are ready to act like a fucking adult and take some responsibility for yourself. You're inability to see how shockingly selfish you are is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect - the actual problem (how fucking selfish religion makes people like you) is what gets in the way of you being able to recognize that a problem even exists (that your religion makes you appallingly selfish - appallingly because I truly believe that you are actually a good human being who is badly misguided into horrible attitudes and behaviors due to your religion).

I can't believe that I'm seriously considering putting you on ignore - not as some sort of retribution, but to save you from the verbal abuse I'm just barely restraining myself from heaping on you in response to whAt you say in this post. The only way I'm managing to hold back is by reminding myself that I think you really will STILL NOT RECOGNIZE WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

I have to walk away from this.
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Offline charlie

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #135 on: May 27, 2017, 07:23:40 PM »
Hello YRM_DM,

Why did you become a "Born-Again Christian" (were you a Born Again Christian?) in the first place?  Why did you believe... at one that... God existed and that you can trust Him? What evidence did you rely on for God's existence that made you a "hard-core" believer to begin with?

I mean, to me, if you have to "bolster" your own faith, it doesn't sound like you had much evidence or good reasons to believe in God in the first place (and therefore you wouldn't have any good reasons to be a "hard-core" believer, imho)... which is why I'm asking the above questions.

Secondly... is it wrong to be a "hard core" believer in truth? If a person is a "hard core" believer in truth, does that make them a jerk?  I'm asking because I don't know what you mean when you say that you "was one of those hard-core believing jerks".  What does that mean? Are you saying that you were personally acting like a jerk... regardless if whether God existed or not?  I'm not tracking you.

Thanks for your patience and indulgence. I believe it is not possible to over-communicate and so I just want to understand what you are saying.

Have a blessed Memorial Day Weekend.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 07:26:34 PM by charlie »

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #136 on: May 27, 2017, 07:43:42 PM »
Hello YRM_DM,

Why did you become a "Born-Again Christian" (were you a Born Again Christian?) in the first place?  Why did you believe... at one that... God existed and that you can trust Him? What evidence did you rely on for God's existence that made you a "hard-core" believer to begin with?

I mean, to me, if you have to "bolster" your own faith, it doesn't sound like you had much evidence or good reasons to believe in God in the first place (and therefore you wouldn't have any good reasons to be a "hard-core" believer, imho)... which is why I'm asking the above questions.

Secondly... is it wrong to be a "hard core" believer in truth? If a person is a "hard core" believer in truth, does that make them a jerk?  I'm asking because I don't know what you mean when you say that you "was one of those hard-core believing jerks".  What does that mean? Are you saying that you were personally acting like a jerk... regardless if whether God existed or not?  I'm not tracking you.

Thanks for your patience and indulgence. I believe it is not possible to over-communicate and so I just want to understand what you are saying.

Have a blessed Memorial Day Weekend.

I was raise Catholic, taught to believe all the myths from childhood... and I became a "born-again-christian" because I believed in Heaven and Hell, and saw that Catholics in general didn't take their faith very seriously.  I believed because I was taught by trusted adults from childhood, and taught not to question... or to accept answers that weren't great, and move on.   I'd been taught that Jesus loved me and that if I didn't have faith I could go to Hell... and I never considered the irony of that teaching... that a loving God would burn people in hell for simply thinking the wrong things because we didn't deserve anything good... (we're filthy rags before God).  I used to sing, dance, wave my hands, I worked on the church newsletter, I even taught Sunday School occasionally doing craft projects.  I had a bunch of Rich Mullins CDs and Jars of Clay.

As far as evidence, there was an event in my life that seemed like answered prayer.   In other words, I prayed for answers, and it seemed like I got one... to the point that I ignored warning signs and ended up making a poor life choice because I thought it was part of God's plan.  (I know, I'm an idiot for trusting an imaginary 'nothing' in the sky.)

Most of my life, I've made good choices...  the few times I haven't made the best possible choice is when I thought I was "trusting God".

In other words, I stupidly bought into the whole Christian doctrine that I had an invented disease (sin), and Christianity had the cure (Jesus), and I bought in whole heartedly.

Because God doesn't actually exist, when things happened like, a youth pastor who was a great husband and father got murdered for his wallet...  I sought ways to justify my faith and protect my faith, instead of putting all my focus on sympathizing with the family.   Because it seems like the kind of thing that a loving God would prevent.   The guy was literally on his way home from a Bible Study where he and his students had all fervently prayed for the community, and safety, and whatnot... and the pastor was shot on his way home.

Things started to click for me when I finally realized that the reason "God's Plan" didn't make sense is that god is imaginary, and we reverse engineer any "evidence" of God into our lives the same way people who believe in horoscopes reverse engineer "proof" of their horoscope.

If you pray 10 times, and 1 of those prayers seems to be answered by coincidence, you ignore the 9 unanswered prayers and credit the coincidence.

If you read your horoscope 10 times and it's dead wrong 9 days...  but it happens to be right on one big event, "You should seek new love today"  (and that happens to be the day you date a new girlfriend), you only credit the hits.

God and prayer are magical thinking where believers like me only credited the hits.   I spent time and energy trying to rationalize and justify all the evil that didn't make sense, even at the expense of forgetting to care most about the people who were hurt...   I was worried about "defending god and protecting my faith" like every other believer, instead of actually empathizing with those who are hurt.

I'm a much better human being, and the world makes far more sense, now that I'm sure that God is Imaginary.    I've spent some time in the years since trying to help other people be free of the same delusions that I had.

Have a great weekend.   Have fun with your family.



You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #137 on: May 27, 2017, 07:54:42 PM »
At least JST has told us the truth.....he is in it for the reward of heaven,and very little more to do with his,or any other brand of Christian apologists
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #138 on: May 27, 2017, 08:23:22 PM »
it doesn't sound like you had much evidence or good reasons to believe in God in the first place (and therefore you wouldn't have any good reasons to be a "hard-core" believer, imho)... which is why I'm asking the above questions.

He was probably one of those people who believed that the gospels were true, and Jesus resurrected to save us. He probably got taught that what was in the gospels was historical and beyond any doubt. What more proof did he need?

Or, maybe you forgot about the gospels. They are an odd thing to forget, unless you don't put any credence in them yourself.
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2017, 11:00:07 PM »
So... God picked YOU, and GRACED YOU... and therefore, you can "help" the homeless man, but, there's this underlying thing that his or her own choices put them there, rather than, say, "Mental illness."  Or maybe they went bankrupt paying medical bills on their dying wife?   Who knows?

I think you touched on a really good point here.  Since believers are in an "us against the world" mental state, thinking that everyone is doomed that doesn't share their beliefs, they're going to see things, in general, in black and white.  Eternity in heaven or eternity burning in hell.  You're either a pure thinker sexually, and are married and have sex with no one else, or you're a sexual deviant.  There is no middle ground.  So in your example of the homeless guy, it fits the pattern.  Either you were picked by God and that's why you're doing well in life, or it's all your fault, and you lost everything.  You nailed it YRM_DM.  When it gets interesting is, like you say, when you're challenged in life and have your "Job" moment.

I am absolutely ashamed to admit this... but, when I was younger and I was firmly faithful, I was at a funeral for a man that I really admired.  He was a pastor, he left a widow and kids.  I felt terrible about the whole thing but, in my mind, I was working to try to figure out how God was going to use this for the greater good.   We'd just had some sermon recently about putting on the armor of God and I was trying to put it on.

So I said to one of the other pastors, who was great friends with the one who was killed, something along the lines of "Job" and "suffering" and that God would use this for the greater good in some way.  I was trying to show my trust that God would turn this event on it's ear and make the best of it.   It's not anything worse than other people were saying around me, but, the truth is, I was trying really hard to bolster my faith, and to bolster the pastor's faith, and to defend God.   My mind at that moment wasn't on the kids (who I really liked and my wife and I had actually baby-sat for)... my mind was on trying to say or do something to defend God and bolster my own faith.

At a funeral for a friend, my mind should have been on the loss and suffering that his family felt, but, I was one of those hard-core believing jerks who put faith above the real hurt of actual human beings who actually exist.

NOTE:  As far as I know, the surviving pastor quit that church and it had complete turnover of membership.  There was no "greater good" that came from it... the church just died.

But I'm far from the only believer who is guilty of this... I've had it thrown back in my face in my own times of suffering, which was a good lesson for me.   I don't know why I had to learn that the hard way, but, it was part of my growth process towards realizing how harmful faith can be, and how selfish religion can make a person.

Look at JST... most likely, he's a decent guy who wants to do good things... but with zero evidence, he sits here defending God...  out of one side of his mouth, he describes Jesus and what Jesus wants and what he's like, and out of the other side of his mouth, he's talked about us not being in a position to pass judgment on God or Jesus, because they have mysterious methods and know things that we don't know.

JST constantly judges Jehovah, Jesus, God... he just judges them perfect.   He judges them "above reproach".   Instead of questioning, he's judging them to be beyond question... but doesn't prove that.

I find that I've learned a little bit more about some of you fellow atheists as human beings than I've learned about the believers.   I know certain posters who are gay, or who came from religious backgrounds, or who have gay children, or who are swingers, or who do a lot of charitable work, or who work in science, or who came from catholic backgrounds.  I know people who are here because some hurt or harm lead them to a logical re-examination of their faith.  I know more about your lives than I know about the lives of believers or that they know about our lives... because they're here to defend God, not to make friends or get to know us.

In general, since I realized my faith was a delusion, years ago, I've been more tolerant, more accepting, more concerned with getting to know people...   when I was a believer, I wanted to be "a good believer".   Now I'm just a flawed person who tries my best.

Old Church Guy is the one believer who gets it right and at least makes an effort to show that he really cares about the way people feel when he's responding to them.

Really powerful post, YRM, and I say that as a believer. :)
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #140 on: May 28, 2017, 12:16:10 AM »
I'm not at all impressed with the legal system you mention.  Innocent people get locked in cages and guilty people go free.  Justice has been largely reduced to which lawyer is more convincing or which can negotiate the best deal.    Guilty persons are locked in cages and subject to continual violence and sexual assault.  In prisons, conditions are so bad that that some kill  themselves.  Some, in effect volunteer for slavery just to get some reprieve.   It's pathetic.
It is. It's a fucking travesty and a shameful reality in this country. We should all be horrified at what we allow to happen to our fellow citizens in our criminal justice system.

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I'd much rather take my chances with Christ.
What chances?

THIS is why YOU specifically piss me off so often. You CLEARLY SEE a huge social problem, a horrifying injustice, and your response is the most selfish fucking thing you could say.

You make it ALL ABOUT YOU.

Hammer Wielding Thor, people like you make me ill. You preach and preach and sanctimoniously fucking preach while doing nothing fucking practical to help anyone, and concern yourselves with only yourselves. Why the hell would any decent human being want to join your faith, with you demonstrating so vividly how shamefully selfish it makes you?

Take your biblical, scriptural silly stories and go sit in the corner until you are ready to act like a fucking adult and take some responsibility for yourself. You're inability to see how shockingly selfish you are is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect - the actual problem (how fucking selfish religion makes people like you) is what gets in the way of you being able to recognize that a problem even exists (that your religion makes you appallingly selfish - appallingly because I truly believe that you are actually a good human being who is badly misguided into horrible attitudes and behaviors due to your religion).

I can't believe that I'm seriously considering putting you on ignore - not as some sort of retribution, but to save you from the verbal abuse I'm just barely restraining myself from heaping on you in response to whAt you say in this post. The only way I'm managing to hold back is by reminding myself that I think you really will STILL NOT RECOGNIZE WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

I have to walk away from this.

I'm glad someone agrees. 

Your rant makes no sense to me.  How is it all about me?  Speaking out about the evils suffered by those in the criminal justice sytem has nothing to do with me.  I speak out about a lot of things that don't affect me and help teach people to protect themselves.  I always help people in the most practical ways available to me.  Sometimes there is a lot I can do and sometimes there is little.  While I think God's kingdom is the only permanent solution to many problems, if there is something I can do in the meantime to help then I do.

With the criminal justice system there is not much I can do.  With the privitization of prisons, imprisonment is now big business.   So decreasing the number of prisoners now means adversely affecting the economy.  Once something becomes about money, often everything else is collateral damage.

What would you like me to do?  I inform people about the problem and try to help people abide by the law which will help keep them out of prison.  Is there something else I should be doing?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #141 on: May 28, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
What would you like me to do?  I inform people about the problem and try to help people abide by the law which will help keep them out of prison.  Is there something else I should be doing?

there is a difference between informing people about a law, and doing something to help them to the actions that would keep them from breaking a law.   There is a also a difference between laws that supposedly come from some undetectable magical being that each and every believer claims a different set of laws from., and laws that we know come from humans.   Theists often use the claim that they are "just" warning everyone about that cliff coming up ahead but that isn't true at all.  They are desperately trying to get others to agree with them, because that is what *they* need. 

jst, you have yet to tell us how you know which laws to obey and which to ignore from your book that supposedly is the "word of God".   since you don't agree with the next TrueChristiantm we have no idea whether there is any reason to believe you or them or none of you at all since NONE of you can do what the bible says as the action of true believers.  Your fruits are no better, and can be demonstrably worse than the actions of other human beings. 

Hello YRM_DM,

Why did you become a "Born-Again Christian" (were you a Born Again Christian?) in the first place?  Why did you believe... at one that... God existed and that you can trust Him? What evidence did you rely on for God's existence that made you a "hard-core" believer to begin with?

I mean, to me, if you have to "bolster" your own faith, it doesn't sound like you had much evidence or good reasons to believe in God in the first place (and therefore you wouldn't have any good reasons to be a "hard-core" believer, imho)... which is why I'm asking the above questions.

Secondly... is it wrong to be a "hard core" believer in truth? If a person is a "hard core" believer in truth, does that make them a jerk?  I'm asking because I don't know what you mean when you say that you "was one of those hard-core believing jerks".  What does that mean? Are you saying that you were personally acting like a jerk... regardless if whether God existed or not?  I'm not tracking you.

Thanks for your patience and indulgence. I believe it is not possible to over-communicate and so I just want to understand what you are saying.

Have a blessed Memorial Day Weekend.

Charlie, as usual, you go away and then come back, still unable to answer the questions put to you, and you always just "decide" to refuse to answer questions when convenient for you and your baseless claims.   I can look back at your earlier posts and see that you make similar excuses to what jst makes, all insisting that no one's interpretation other than yours is the "right" one and you still can't support your own as any better than anyone else's.  we can see the whole dodging issue you have here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30312.msg715077.html

I do like the one where you apparently don't think raising the dead is a spectacular miracle.   and I'm still waiting for an answer to this: Charlie, why should anyone believe your version or any other Christian's version when you can't even convince each other?

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline charlie

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #142 on: May 28, 2017, 11:27:32 AM »
Charlie, as usual, you go away and then come back, still unable to answer the questions put to you, and you always just "decide" to refuse to answer questions when convenient for you and your baseless claims.   I can look back at your earlier posts and see that you make similar excuses to what jst makes, all insisting that no one's interpretation other than yours is the "right" one and you still can't support your own as any better than anyone else's.  we can see the whole dodging issue you have here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30312.msg715077.html

I do like the one where you apparently don't think raising the dead is a spectacular miracle.   and I'm still waiting for an answer to this: Charlie, why should anyone believe your version or any other Christian's version when you can't even convince each other?

You're entitled to your opinion Velkyn... even though I think much of it is mistaken on some of the topics we have discussed on this forum.  You appear to be an intelligent person, but as we all know... intelligence is no guarantee that a person will be correct in their conclusions or worldview.. or that they are immune to making critical thinking errors and/or committing logical fallacies.  We are all prone to such mistakes. All of us.

For an intelligent person like yourself, I am very surprised that you would make the remark that I " always just "decide" to refuse to answer questions when convenient" for me  and my "baseless claims".  I"m sure upon further reflection, you would agree that you are not psychic and therefore you have no ability to know why I am sometimes gone from this forum.  How on earth can you know what I have "decided" and the reasons for my "decisions" if you are not capable of reading minds?   With the hope of not sounding too uncharitable,  I think your statement borders on being very presumptuous.

Although it is not any of your business... it so happens that my wife has dementia and is in a locked down facility and will often have to be transferred to a hospital because of potential harmful episodes that she will have. There is nothing more heart rendering (for me) than to tell my wife how much I love her, and yet she doesn't know who I am.  So there are many times, when medical and legal and financial issues come up, and I have to take time away from my love of engaging conversationally with people who have contrary opinions and viewpoints of my own.... and deal with pressing issues surrounding my wife.

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm just saying that sometimes real life gets in the way and we sometimes have to make decisions.  For me, although I enjoy this forum (because I find it very soothing and relaxing to think about things)... it is nonetheless a luxury.  And so when I have to decide between spending time on here or with my wife... my wife wins.

Admittedly, there are other times that I will stop contributing to a discussion, because I feel it is getting no-where productively... and so because of my limited time... I will decide to look for more intellectually productive discussions.  I'm not here to win or score points. I just like having interesting and deep and challenging discussions. It is soothing and relaxing for me.

However... it so happens I do have some time at the moment... and if you want me to resume the discussion we were having in the link that you supplied... I'm willing to do that.  But only if you are sincerely interested.

Have a blessed Memorial Day.  Thank God for the men and women who have laid down their lives to ensure our continued freedoms.


Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #143 on: May 28, 2017, 03:01:57 PM »
What would you like me to do?  I inform people about the problem and try to help people abide by the law which will help keep them out of prison.  Is there something else I should be doing?

there is a difference between informing people about a law, and doing something to help them to the actions that would keep them from breaking a law.   There is a also a difference between laws that supposedly come from some undetectable magical being that each and every believer claims a different set of laws from., and laws that we know come from humans.   Theists often use the claim that they are "just" warning everyone about that cliff coming up ahead but that isn't true at all.  They are desperately trying to get others to agree with them, because that is what *they* need. 

jst, you have yet to tell us how you know which laws to obey and which to ignore from your book that supposedly is the "word of God".   since you don't agree with the next TrueChristiantm we have no idea whether there is any reason to believe you or them or none of you at all since NONE of you can do what the bible says as the action of true believers.  Your fruits are no better, and can be demonstrably worse than the actions of other human beings. 

Hello YRM_DM,

Why did you become a "Born-Again Christian" (were you a Born Again Christian?) in the first place?  Why did you believe... at one that... God existed and that you can trust Him? What evidence did you rely on for God's existence that made you a "hard-core" believer to begin with?

I mean, to me, if you have to "bolster" your own faith, it doesn't sound like you had much evidence or good reasons to believe in God in the first place (and therefore you wouldn't have any good reasons to be a "hard-core" believer, imho)... which is why I'm asking the above questions.

Secondly... is it wrong to be a "hard core" believer in truth? If a person is a "hard core" believer in truth, does that make them a jerk?  I'm asking because I don't know what you mean when you say that you "was one of those hard-core believing jerks".  What does that mean? Are you saying that you were personally acting like a jerk... regardless if whether God existed or not?  I'm not tracking you.

Thanks for your patience and indulgence. I believe it is not possible to over-communicate and so I just want to understand what you are saying.

Have a blessed Memorial Day Weekend.

Charlie, as usual, you go away and then come back, still unable to answer the questions put to you, and you always just "decide" to refuse to answer questions when convenient for you and your baseless claims.   I can look back at your earlier posts and see that you make similar excuses to what jst makes, all insisting that no one's interpretation other than yours is the "right" one and you still can't support your own as any better than anyone else's.  we can see the whole dodging issue you have here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,30312.msg715077.html

I do like the one where you apparently don't think raising the dead is a spectacular miracle.   and I'm still waiting for an answer to this: Charlie, why should anyone believe your version or any other Christian's version when you can't even convince each other?

Go ahead and demonstrate that my actions are worse than other human beings.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline wheels5894

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Re: No True Scotsman
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2017, 03:24:08 PM »
We have not need to do that, Jst. You think you know who will, though.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)