Author Topic: Mr. President Donald Trump  (Read 3770 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2017, 09:07:33 PM »
Given screwtape's reply (which, had it been mine, would've been deleted on the spot, and probably get me onto moderated status), your apparent reliance on telepathy for me to understand that you weren't just going to ignore the issue when you failed time and time again to point out alternatives to my suggestion, and your continued disrespect and name-calling, I'd say my responses were quite tame.
Given that you are obviously relying on telepathy yourself in presuming to assert what I would have done in a situation that didn't actually happen, and are relying on repeated strawmen arguments despite my asking and then telling you to stop, I think it is quite clear that your posts are nowhere near as 'tame' as you seem to think they are.  That being said, I am instructing you, as a moderator, to cease and desist with the strawmen.  It is tiresome to have to deal with this sort of behavior from members who are fully capable of avoiding it.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2017, 03:19:50 AM »
Probably the same thing that motivated you to put forth a loaded question.

If it wasn't intentional as I'd implied, but merely an accident or thoughtless post, then you can just say so.

You could've also not asked a loaded question, but here we are.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2017, 03:40:58 AM »
In One's defence, I do think his intention was good guys. I can appreciate why you didn't care for how he communicated it, but if he truly didn't care I don't think it's likely he'd have taken the time to make the posts in here that he did - even if nobody found what he said helpful (and appreciating why, given the reasons for this that have been expressed by others in here).

Okay, will shut up now and go back to just reading this thread!

;-)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 03:43:33 AM by Emma286 »

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2017, 04:09:05 PM »

You could've also not asked a loaded question, but here we are.

What about its load did you object to exactly? And you've yet to address your original false dichotomy, which, unlike my question, bears directly on the topic that was under discussion.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2017, 09:39:00 PM »
In One's defence, I do think his intention was good guys.

It wasn't.  His intention was just to voice his uninformed, off topic opinion.


 
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2017, 09:57:04 PM »
But still, unless the Don's ghost writer is a practicing psychologist or psychiatrist it still just amounts to someones opinion and not an actual clinical diagnosis.

?  Is a clinical diagnosis all that matters?  Does the opinion of a relatively objective observer count for nothing?  I think the point was that Orange Donny was too dangerous to be given "more rope".  My justification was the ghost writer's assessment, which so far has been pretty spot on.

You can't just say, "well it's true about Trump." and expect any of his supporters to take you seriously.

I don't think there is anything you can do to get his idiot horde to take anything negative about him seriously.  They overlooked the horrors and deficiencies that were obvious to the rest of us prior to the election.  There is no reason for them to stop overlooking them now, and every psychological reason to overlook even more egregious bullshit.

Pulling up published opinion pieces...

There is opinion and there is opinion.  In my life as an engineer, I was once in a meeting and said something on the topic of engineering, as was my wont.  My boss said, "that's just your opinion."  Which nearly caused me to jump from my seat and choke the life from him.  It is a very dismissive thing to say, and in that case incorrect.  It was my professional opinion, which is different.  It was backed by years of study, training and experience.  And while it was not necessarily Fact, it was not something to be brushed off so lightly.

Similarly, the quoted article wasn't just some joe shmo off the street shooting off his mouth.  He was someone who, by his profession, had to get to know Don the Con very well.  So while it is not incontrovertible fact, it does have much more weight than just an opinion. 


Hostile rhetoric and hyperbole and blaming his supporters is not the proper way.

How about we set them on fire instead?
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2017, 11:32:11 PM »
?  Is a clinical diagnosis all that matters?
No. But when you are talking about the president of the united states, facts matter.

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Does the opinion of a relatively objective observer count for nothing?
It doesn't count for nothing. However, it is just anecdotal evidence.

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I think the point was that Orange Donny was too dangerous to be given "more rope".  My justification was the ghost writer's assessment, which so far has been pretty spot on.


That is your opinion. It is also my opinion that the man is wholly incompetent for the position he now holds. Damn near everything about him terrifies me or disgusts me. That is just my opinion. So we agree that Trump is unfit to serve in the highest office in the land. It's not our reasoning that is different, it is our approach to a solution to the problem we both behold.

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I don't think there is anything you can do to get his idiot horde to take anything negative about him seriously.

When it comes to policy, most likely not. When it comes to his personality no. When it comes to opinions no. But, when it comes to legality...maybe. My father in law is an avid Trump supporter. I can testify that if Trump were caught red handed doing something illegal, my father in law would no longer support the man.

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They overlooked the horrors and deficiencies that were obvious to the rest of us prior to the election.

Because they were looking for something different. I mean really, who cares if JFK fucked Marylin Monroe or Bill Clinton fucked an intern with a cigar? People are willing to overlook or duck their head in the sand whenever they are supporting someone who tells them what they want to hear. The obvious is always subjugated by those who just want their team to win.

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There is no reason for them to stop overlooking them now, and every psychological reason to overlook even more egregious bullshit.

Yet. What they will see as a deficiency is not the same as what you see as a deficiency. Give it time, he will let them down and they will start complaining. No president has ever been able to deliver their campaign promises.

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There is opinion and there is opinion.  In my life as an engineer, I was once in a meeting and said something on the topic of engineering, as was my wont.  My boss said, "that's just your opinion."  Which nearly caused me to jump from my seat and choke the life from him.  It is a very dismissive thing to say, and in that case incorrect.  It was my professional opinion, which is different.  It was backed by years of study, training and experience.  And while it was not necessarily Fact, it was not something to be brushed off so lightly.

Similarly, the quoted article wasn't just some joe shmo off the street shooting off his mouth.  He was someone who, by his profession, had to get to know Don the Con very well.  So while it is not incontrovertible fact, it does have much more weight than just an opinion.

Not much because although your opinion was based on your extensive experience in the field of engineering, Tony Schwartz has no experience in the field of psychology or psychiatry...so he does not present a professional opinion. He presents a personal opinion. Sadly, that is not enough to remove a president from office no matter how much we may agree with his personal opinion. 

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How about we set them on fire instead?

How about we try to find a better way forward that doesn't involve killing people we disagree with?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:35:02 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
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I don't think there is anything you can do to get his idiot horde to take anything negative about him seriously.

When it comes to policy, most likely not. When it comes to his personality no. When it comes to opinions no. But, when it comes to legality...maybe. My father in law is an avid Trump supporter. I can testify that if Trump were caught red handed doing something illegal, my father in law would no longer support the man.

I don't know your father in law.  But I'd still bet paychecks that when the Oopahloompah in Chief is caught red handed, your FIL will make every excuse to avoid the obvious conclusion.  Just as my father will.  They will say it is bogus, it is the media out to get him, the "deep state" Obama operatives imbedded in government, etc. Anything to avoid admitting they made a dumb choice.  To this day, a ton of republicans - Crazy Uncle Pat Buchanan, for one - still insist Nixon didn't do anything wrong and unjustly ousted by unAmerican traitors.

Just like when the assyrians (or was it babylonians?) kicked the Hebrews' asses and burned down their temple.  Proof positive their puny god, yhwh, wasn't shit compared to Marduk.  Did the jooz accept that?  Heck no.  They came up with a cockamamie excuse that yhwh was using the assyrians (babylonians?) to punish them. Total bullshit in service of denial.

So, no, I don't agree.  I think you are giving the idiot horde too much credit and down playing the effect of a constant diet of Fox "news", breitbart, drudge and info wars. 

Because they were looking for something different. I mean really, who cares if JFK fucked Marylin Monroe or Bill Clinton fucked an intern with a cigar?

I care, so don't play the Bothsiderist game with me.  I'm not hearing it.  And those are relatively minor compared to what we've got going on right now.

Not much because although your opinion was based on your extensive experience in the field of engineering, Tony Schwartz has no experience in the field of psychology or psychiatry...so he does not present a professional opinion. He presents a personal opinion.

You keep coming back to clinical diagnoses and that is not nor ever was the point.  I am not a psychologist or a gun expert, but I can tell you my father should not be trusted to carry a concealed gun in public. And that opinion should carry enough weight to make people pay attention. 

The writer, in his profession, had to get to know The Orange One, had to analyze his thought processes, had to get inside his head.  That opinion should be taken seriously and not brushed off as "just his opinion". 

Sadly, that is not enough to remove a president from office...

That was not the point either.  I was not saying that the say-so of this ghost writer should be enough to impeach him.  I was saying that should be enough to scare the milk out of you and drop the notion of patience and giving more rope to our idiot president.  I think he's had plenty enough rope to give him the boot and I think it is urgent.

How about we try to find a better way forward that doesn't involve killing people we disagree with?

I'll be honest, the idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But I guess we can try it.  If it doesn't work out, we can always try the fire thing later.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #124 on: May 20, 2017, 09:33:57 AM »
It wasn't.  His intention was just to voice his uninformed, off topic opinion.
Whether or not that is true, your responses to him were over the top and were fairly counterproductive as a result.  Please refrain from escalating disputes such as this in the future.  If you believe a member is acting inappropriately, please report it to the moderation staff.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2017, 02:50:43 PM »
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline wright

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2017, 02:58:32 PM »
^^^That is simultaneously wonderful and deeply disturbing.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #127 on: May 21, 2017, 08:10:11 AM »
No. But when you are talking about the president of the united states, facts matter.

if facts matter, then observed actions that track with professional diagnoses e.g. agreed upon definitions in professional manuals, should be considered valid. 
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #128 on: May 21, 2017, 11:48:47 AM »
At the very least, Mr. Blackwell, they can be seen as hypotheses which can then be verified or falsified depending on the evidence.  I wouldn't want non-professionals to make actual diagnoses, but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, etc, then considering it to be a duck until someone shows evidence otherwise is hardly a bad idea.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #129 on: May 21, 2017, 02:38:01 PM »
No. But when you are talking about the president of the united states, facts matter.

if facts matter, then observed actions that track with professional diagnoses e.g. agreed upon definitions in professional manuals, should be considered valid.

Like This?

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Trump will be president for another three years barring bad health or an impeachment followed by a successful conviction. Therefore, it is prudent to ask a very important question; Does President Trump have the psychological makeup to carry out a heinous agenda against a large segment of the American people? Most Americans will agree with the notion that this President could be judged to be psychologically impaired. What makes Americans so sure that one of our leaders could take on the traits of a Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and Hitler? People should remember that many from Hitler’s party were democratically elected and Germany had a constitution prior to the Nazi takeover.

Dictators invariably emerge on a scene at a time of great conflict. State-sponsored genocides frequently follow coups, civil wars or can become part of a national landscape in a declared martial law.

Economic crises often provide a backdrop from which roundups of dissidents are conducted, families are separated, undesirables are executed and genocide can take place.  Often, a particular segment of a society is ostracized and used as scapegoat in order to provide a point of unification for a people in crisis in a classic divide and conquer strategy. Further, leaders of a brutal martial law movement grant themselves legal immunity from prosecution by making their heinous actions legal before they occur.

Many of these preconditions are in evidence in modern day America. Trump, as well as members of his administration, have engaged in the “divide and conquer” strategy of race baiting. Trump's incessant fanning of the flames of refugees and immigration is an excellent example of a president who is dividing a nation instead of helping heal a nation.

Trump has done nothing but polarize this nation along the lines of gay rights, forcing the issue of religious freedom upon an unwilling public through executive orders, promoting the rights of American citizens over that of immigrants and refugees, promoting black vs. white division, Muslim vs. Christian, poor vs. rich and Christian vs. non-Christian. America has no shortage of potential sparks for division in this country thanks to this president’s ineffective and suspect leadership. Finally, through the NDAA and Executive Order 13603, this President has given himself (and future Presidents) the authority to do anything he deems necessary in a time of his choosing.

In the final analysis, I judge the conditions to be ripe for a brutal martial law crackdown to occur for the reasons listed in the previous paragraph. The $64 million dollar question is whether or not this president has the psychological make-up necessary to carry out just such an agenda.

In one of my former careers, I worked as a therapist for convicts, sentenced by the courts to a large halfway, inpatient, residential center. During my two years at this facility, I encountered various mental illnesses which manifested in a person’s behavior in a variety of ways. Diagnostics and prescribing a course of intervention were my main duties. I performed many roles in this facility ranging from individual and group counseling, family group counseling and I administered several aspects of a life skills education program. Today, I teach these clinical intervention skills to undergraduate and graduate students. For the purposes of this article, I am going to use my professional expertise in an effort to assess if President Trump is capable of carrying out an agenda of extreme repression against the American people.

History has shown that most of the brutal dictators of the past have shared certain mental illnesses, namely, Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

Before analyzing President Trump according to these criteria, based upon observed public behaviors, please allow me to make a few general observations with regard to these three conditions. NPD sufferers believe that they are entitled to special privilege and that the rules of society apply to others but not to them. PPD individuals are people who are unusually suspicious in situations in which most people would not be concerned. They frequently change allies and lack stable relationships in their lives. Finally, ASPD people are a combination of what we used to call a sociopath and a psychopath. These people are capable to doing great harm to another human being without feeling any empathy and remorse. This is the central element in the personality structure of a person who would commit genocide against their own people.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

         Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

        Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

        Requires excessive admiration

        Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

        Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

        Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

        Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

        Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Five out eight of these symptoms are sufficient cause to warrant a positive diagnosis. Trump is one of the most self-righteous people on the planet and we have numerous quotes which exemplify this point.

This president does not tolerate normal criticism which comes with the territory of being a president. He has expressed his desire to create legislation making it easier to sue news outlets and journalists who criticize him "unfairly". This is the ultimate in haughtiness.

Trump exhibits extreme signs of feeling a sense of entitlement. His incessant misuse of the power of executive orders provides prima fascia evidence that “his will be done” and that he is above the law with regard to violating the constitutional rights of the American people.

Trump is an extremely exploitative person. However, in the grand scheme of politics, it is a needed survival skill to take advantage of people in one’s climb to the top of the political world. Therefore, is Trump exploitative by nature, or, do the political realities of his position dictate the emergence of this trait as a survival skill? The jury is out on this one.

The President’s recent statement in which he bragged he was so famous he could grab women by the pussy if he wanted to speaks to his extreme level of insensitivity.

Of the eight traits associated with this disorder, I see five of the eight with the sixth trait not being supported due to a lack of evidence.

President Trump clearly suffers from NPD. People with NPD can indeed function to some degree in society. However, they often make very ineffective leaders because they almost always put their needs ahead of the needs of the people they purport to serve....

<snip>

Trump has extreme superficial charm but he is highly impulsive. His assistants do not know if he will attend an intelligence briefing or will he be on the golf course.

The President has engaged in repeated acts of lying and breaking the law. This administration has been little more than one great big criminal enterprise.

Trump may or not be paranoid, although his treatment of the military would indicate that he is. Unquestionably, President Trump is suffering from NPD. This is very concerning because a leader with NPD would not hesitate to put his needs ahead of the country that he is leading. This fact indicates he would not hesitate to carry out acts of extreme violence against individuals and groups perceived as being a threat to the authority and position of President Trump.

We, indeed, have much to be concerned over. We can only hope that the next three years will quickly pass and Trump will not have the ability to act fast enough to preserve his tenure in office, should that ever be threatened. For a person with this psychological profile, would not likely hesitate to enact false flag attacks and engage in the extreme persecution of individuals and groups deemed to be a threat if it meant preserving his Presidency.




« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:47:41 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #130 on: May 21, 2017, 02:56:28 PM »
source?

and I do know where you got it from. However, I do want you to reveal it.  and explain the problems with it.  I do expect to see examples of observed actions. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:59:28 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #131 on: May 21, 2017, 03:11:08 PM »
source?

http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/09/the-psychological-profile-of-president-obama/

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and I do know where you got it from. However, I do want you to reveal it.  and explain the problems with it.  I do expect to see examples of observed actions.

The problems with it is that is just somebody's opinion. But people have a tendency to believe anything that confirms their bias no matter how contrived.



When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #132 on: May 21, 2017, 03:46:43 PM »
There's a point here you may not have recognized, Blackwell.  Even though that person is not a medical doctor and thus cannot medically diagnose Trump with anything, if Trump acts in a way that makes people think he might be narcissistic, it is not unreasonable to use that as an operating hypothesis to understand or explain his behavior.  Indeed, if the operational hypothesis does a good job of predicting how he will act next, then it would be foolish not to use it, right?

You are of course correct that many people will believe things that suit their biases.  But that is not a good reason to dismiss their arguments.  For one thing, sauce for the goose applies.  For another, the mere fact that someone may be biased does not mean they are wrong.  If a person is biased, but their biases generally allow them to accurately predict outcomes, then the fact that they are biased is barely worth mentioning, never mind serving as a reason to dismiss points they make.

It's not a bad idea to take what they say with a grain of salt, of course, but if you go further than that without cause to believe they're actually wrong, then you're making a worse mistake than the one you think they're making.  Because if they end up being right, then you will be in the position of having to retract your earlier opposition...which most people aren't good at.  In fact, the usual response is to double down on the original position in order to defend the ego and avoid having to admit wrongness.

That's a bad position to be in at the best of times.  With the way things are right now, it's acutely dangerous.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #133 on: May 21, 2017, 07:33:55 PM »
There's a point here you may not have recognized, Blackwell.  Even though that person is not a medical doctor and thus cannot medically diagnose Trump with anything, if Trump acts in a way that makes people think he might be narcissistic, it is not unreasonable to use that as an operating hypothesis to understand or explain his behavior.  Indeed, if the operational hypothesis does a good job of predicting how he will act next, then it would be foolish not to use it, right?

You are of course correct that many people will believe things that suit their biases.  But that is not a good reason to dismiss their arguments.  For one thing, sauce for the goose applies.  For another, the mere fact that someone may be biased does not mean they are wrong.  If a person is biased, but their biases generally allow them to accurately predict outcomes, then the fact that they are biased is barely worth mentioning, never mind serving as a reason to dismiss points they make.

It's not a bad idea to take what they say with a grain of salt, of course, but if you go further than that without cause to believe they're actually wrong, then you're making a worse mistake than the one you think they're making.  Because if they end up being right, then you will be in the position of having to retract your earlier opposition...which most people aren't good at.  In fact, the usual response is to double down on the original position in order to defend the ego and avoid having to admit wrongness.

That's a bad position to be in at the best of times.  With the way things are right now, it's acutely dangerous.

Do you consider Dick Morris's criticisms of the Clintons[1] to be valid?
 1. Especially Hillary
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #134 on: May 21, 2017, 08:10:36 PM »
I have no idea who that is or what the criticism is.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #135 on: May 21, 2017, 08:22:40 PM »
I have no idea who that is or what the criticism is.

I have faith in your ability to learn about him and his connections and his criticisms. I first heard about him about four months ago. I have never read any of his books, though...I have heard them advertised.
When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #136 on: May 21, 2017, 10:05:58 PM »
If you don't even care enough to spend a few minutes writing up some information on something you brought up, why should anyone else care enough to look?

Now how about you answer the points I raised instead of bringing up red herrings.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #137 on: May 21, 2017, 10:34:51 PM »
Quote
Richard Samuel "Dick" Morris (born November 28, 1946) is an American political author and commentator who previously worked as a pollster, political campaign consultant, and general political consultant.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

A friend and advisor to Bill Clinton during his time as Governor of Arkansas, Morris became a political adviser to the White House after Clinton was elected president in 1992. Morris encouraged Clinton to pursue third way policies of triangulation that combined traditional Republican and Democratic proposals, rhetoric, and issues so as to achieve maximum political gain and popularity. He worked as a Republican strategist before joining the Clinton administration, where he helped Clinton recover from the 1994 midterm elections by advising the President to adopt more moderate policies.[7] The president consulted Morris in secret beginning in 1994.[8] Clinton's communications director George Stephanopoulos has said, "Over the course of the first nine months of 1995, no single person had more power over the president."[9] Morris went on to become campaign manager of Bill Clinton's successful 1996 bid for re-election as President, but his tenure on that campaign was cut short two months before the election, when it was revealed that he had allowed a prostitute to listen in on conversations with the President.

Morris now writes a weekly column for the New York Post which is carried nationwide, contributes columns and blogs to both the print and online versions of The Hill. He is also president of Vote.com.[10] More recently, Morris has emerged as a harsh critic of the Clintons and has written several books that criticize them, including Rewriting History, a rebuttal to then-Senator Hillary Clinton's Living History. Morris said that he would leave the United States if Hillary Clinton were elected president in 2008.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Morris

And there is a point I was making that you may not have recognized. I can't tell from the points you raised if you read the article in the link I provided to Velkyn or not. The article I quoted wasn't about Trump. I changed a few words around to illustrate just how vacuous arm chair psychological evaluations are and how the same template can be used to criticize almost anyone in power. And yes, some people on both sides do it.

I completely agree that personal observations from people "in the know" should be taken with a grain of salt but until something is actually proven I do not consider anyone's personal evaluation as valid for anything other than their opinion which is basically just comfort food for thought if you agree with their evaluation.

I give a lot more weight to advise and criticism from professionals talking about things within their field of expertise but I do not lend any credit to people like Dick Morris,  Dave Hodges or even Tony Schwartz when it comes to attacking the "man" instead of policies.





When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2017, 11:43:21 PM »
I missed this comment somehow.

At the very least, Mr. Blackwell, they can be seen as hypotheses which can then be verified or falsified depending on the evidence.  I wouldn't want non-professionals to make actual diagnoses

Me neither

Quote
but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, etc, then considering it to be a duck until someone shows evidence otherwise is hardly a bad idea.

To me, that sounds a bit like advocating that someone should be considered guilty of all charges until proven innocent. I know that's not how you think so I'm not sure why you would use that line of logic when it comes to this.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 11:46:43 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2017, 08:29:13 AM »
source?

http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/09/the-psychological-profile-of-president-obama/

Quote
and I do know where you got it from. However, I do want you to reveal it.  and explain the problems with it.  I do expect to see examples of observed actions.

The problems with it is that is just somebody's opinion. But people have a tendency to believe anything that confirms their bias no matter how contrived.

do you understand why I asked for observed actions?   
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #140 on: May 22, 2017, 10:08:02 AM »
Quote
but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, etc, then considering it to be a duck until someone shows evidence otherwise is hardly a bad idea.

To me, that sounds a bit like advocating that someone should be considered guilty of all charges until proven innocent. I know that's not how you think so I'm not sure why you would use that line of logic when it comes to this.

I think it's more like advocating that someone should take consideration of what can be observed regarding someone's behavior and actions when making a consideration for whether or not they are guilty.  That's the whole point of stating things like "looks like a duck" and "sounds like a duck."

I could see your point, Mr. Blackwell, if jaimehlers had some something to the effect of "but if it is a warm-blooded creature, then considering it to be a duck until someone shows evidence otherwise is hardly a bad idea" or "but if it walks on planet Earth, then considering it to be a duck until someone shows evidence otherwise is a bad idea."  Do you recognize the differences in what those statements are saying and what jaimehlers was saying?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #141 on: May 22, 2017, 12:48:42 PM »
To me, that sounds a bit like advocating that someone should be considered guilty of all charges until proven innocent. I know that's not how you think so I'm not sure why you would use that line of logic when it comes to this.
I suggest you review the concept known as "probable cause" before you try to carry that analogy any further.  To wit, if you suspect someone with bloody hands of an axe murder, it's not at all unreasonable to take away their axe until there's a chance to try them in a court of law.  By the same token, if someone is judged to be a flight risk - meaning there's considered to be a good chance they'll run away before the trial - it's not unreasonable to put them in confinement until the trial begins.

It's true that you shouldn't make judgment calls before all the evidence is available, not least because once someone has drawn a firm conclusion about something, it's really tough to get them to change their minds.  But an operational hypothesis is not a firm conclusion.  If a person remains open to disconfirming evidence, there's nothing at all wrong with utilizing a hypothesis to make predictions about something, if for no other reason than that the actual outcome might itself be disconfirming evidence.

I'll take a look at your post about that guy later today (or possibly tomorrow, depending on how busy I am).
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #142 on: May 22, 2017, 01:15:20 PM »
It's true that you shouldn't make judgment calls before all the evidence is available, not least because once someone has drawn a firm conclusion about something, it's really tough to get them to change their minds.  But an operational hypothesis is not a firm conclusion.

I suppose I disagree with the principle "one should not make judgment calls prior to having all evidence available" insofar as I think drawing conclusions based on tentative evidence is fine.  The conviction behind that conclusion ought to be in some way proportional to how strong the evidence is.  I certainly do not have all of the evidence to available to suggest that Rodrigo Duterte is an awful human being but I'm not going to wait until he personally murders me or any of my family members before holding the conclusion he's an awful human being.  I will draw that conclusion based on the evidence I have available to me, which is very, very likely not all the evidence that is available.  Should other evidence present itself or if I find other evidence that is contrary to that conclusion, I may change my mind based on the nature and strength of that evidence coupled with reassessment of the evidence I had at hand when I previously drew the conclusion that Duterte is an awful human being.

The firmness of my conclusion is going to be in some way proportional to the strength of that evidence[1].

I guess I'm not a fan of the dichotomous-esque portrayal of 'operational hypothesis' and 'firm conclusion'.  I think it is more useful to just think in terms of strength of conviction with relation to a conclusion.  'Operational hypothesis' is a conclusion - tentative to be sure but then again shouldn't all conclusions be considered 'tentative' in some form or fashion?

Long story short - isn't the only difference between 'operational hypothesis' and 'firm conclusion' a matter of degree?  Maybe this is just a weird semantics thing.
 1. And, of course, coupled with whatever biases I have that I either fail to recognize or fail to account for.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #143 on: May 22, 2017, 09:32:31 PM »
source?

http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/12/09/the-psychological-profile-of-president-obama/

Quote
and I do know where you got it from. However, I do want you to reveal it.  and explain the problems with it.  I do expect to see examples of observed actions.

The problems with it is that is just somebody's opinion. But people have a tendency to believe anything that confirms their bias no matter how contrived.


Blackwell, you're embarrassing yourself.  You are equivocating a professional liar and conspiracy theorist with a biographer and saying, "well, they both have opinions."  The professional liar did not ever, at any point know the person of whom he was speaking.  It is likely he didn't even believe what he wrote and only did so for politics and money. 

On the other hand, the biographer, as I have pointed out already, spent a year and a half with Don the Con, getting to know him. 

Their opinions do not have equal merit. 

I don't understand, Blackwell.



What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Mr. President Donald Trump
« Reply #144 on: May 22, 2017, 09:46:04 PM »
And there is a point I was making that you may not have recognized. I can't tell from the points you raised if you read the article in the link I provided to Velkyn or not. The article I quoted wasn't about Trump. I changed a few words around to illustrate just how vacuous arm chair psychological evaluations are and how the same template can be used to criticize almost anyone in power. And yes, some people on both sides do it.
In fact, I had heard some of the same things from elsewhere - including from an interview with his ghostwriter which aired on NPR a while back.  And while it's true that a ghostwriter is not a psychologist, it's also true that he had to spend a lot of time with Trump in order to ghostwrite his book and thus would be in a better position than most to make a non-psychological evaluation.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I completely agree that personal observations from people "in the know" should be taken with a grain of salt but until something is actually proven I do not consider anyone's personal evaluation as valid for anything other than their opinion which is basically just comfort food for thought if you agree with their evaluation.
Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it's "comfort food for thought".  I mean, when you get right down to it, diagnoses made by experts are still opinions.  So you could use this same chain of reasoning to discount or dispute any evaluation you didn't like, even one made by a professional.  It's definitely something you need to take into account.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I give a lot more weight to advise and criticism from professionals talking about things within their field of expertise but I do not lend any credit to people like Dick Morris,  Dave Hodges or even Tony Schwartz when it comes to attacking the "man" instead of policies.
To be frank, that's not a very sensible attitude to hold.  I could understand not giving their opinions the same weight as you would a professional's, but to say that you don't give them any credit despite them having spent time - and in some cases, a lot of time - in the presence of the person in question is, well, problematic.  Especially given the amount of time you've spent in their presence (which is basically none).  Maybe I'm just not understanding you right, but it sounds a lot like you're putting your own non-experience ahead of their experience.
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