Author Topic: does promiscuity cause suffering?  (Read 3713 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2017, 06:57:46 AM »
I have been ambiguous.  I have generalized.  I have just been awful. 

I'm tackling subjects above my head. 

My sincere apologies.   I am going to debate theists because I'm not smart enough to debate my fellow atheists.

I am sure I am the dumbest atheist here. 

There won't be any more rotten posts from me.  I'm going to try real hard.

No more posting from my phone for sure.

Again sincere apologies for all of this. 

I just want peace for us all.  I need to walk away.  I am not a victim of anyone but myself.   My own worst enemy.
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Online velkyn

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2017, 07:04:11 AM »
I have been ambiguous.  I have generalized.  I have just been awful. 

I'm tackling subjects above my head. 

My sincere apologies.   I am going to debate theists because I'm not smart enough to debate my fellow atheists.

I am sure I am the dumbest atheist here. 

There won't be any more rotten posts from me.  I'm going to try real hard.

No more posting from my phone for sure.

Again sincere apologies for all of this. 

I just want peace for us all.  I need to walk away.  I am not a victim of anyone but myself.   My own worst enemy.

unfortunately, this seems like the usual cycle again, playing the martyr.  I hope you follow thorough. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:20:35 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #234 on: July 08, 2017, 02:35:34 AM »
Can't help being curious on this Jag (I've never been through anything like this) was there actually mutual lust there alongside the liking each other as people?
Not sure how to answer that, to be honest. I saw it more as two friends helping each other out. I know that sounds weird, now that I see it written out like that, lol, but that's really what it was to me. I thought he was good looking, and of course that helped, but no, it wasn't like I think you mean.

Thanks for sharing Jag, appreciate that.

This is what occurs to me! I see that, most likely, if there was a total lack of lust involved (in such a situation) then it'd be pretty tough for a female (I have heard before that guys can find it pretty easy to go to bed with women that they're not even physically attracted to though then again I guess that depends on the guy in question) to get aroused enough to go through with things.

Then again, it does also occur to me that if a female had a high enough general sex drive then not necessarily. Appreciating that sex drive strengths vary amongst different people!

Oh god no. I decided to sleep with him precisely because I was confident that I wouldn't "fall" for him. I was enjoying being single and dating a lot, but realized that sex would cloud my judgment about anyone I was considering as a LTR possibility. So I decided to limit sex to someone I wouldn't get hung up on, and dated lots of guys for about a year and a half. It was honestly a great deal of fun, and no one was hurt by it.

Looking back, I think I was really, really lucky. Right place, right time, right person. I would hesitate to endorse it as a course of action to others, I think it takes either a certain combination of personality traits, or the intersection of several distinct elements to do it as ...gracefully? ... as we did. We went in absolutely committed to making sure his live-in girlfriend would NEVER know, there was no question of disrupting that relationship on either of our parts. That takes a lot of trust, he was risking a lot more than I was.

Thanks again for explaining and understood! Not having much dating or relationship experience compared to some (I've only ever been in 2 serious relationships and outside of those never dated anyone) it's interesting to hear about other people's different experiences!

Offline Emma286

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #235 on: July 08, 2017, 03:17:08 AM »
I have been ambiguous.  I have generalized.  I have just been awful. 

I'm tackling subjects above my head. 

My sincere apologies.   I am going to debate theists because I'm not smart enough to debate my fellow atheists.

I am sure I am the dumbest atheist here. 

There won't be any more rotten posts from me.  I'm going to try real hard.

No more posting from my phone for sure.

Again sincere apologies for all of this. 

I just want peace for us all.  I need to walk away.  I am not a victim of anyone but myself.   My own worst enemy.

And then it doesn't tend to be long, Junebug, before you resort back to making comments like this below (similar to what you recently posted in that "Is it okay to be me" thread of yours in the support section)


I wish I had never told you people I was going back to school. 

I don't want your advice anymore.  Nobody here is my teacher, my mother, my therapist, or my conscience.

And what tends to be the typical trigger for resorting back to such comments after you've said different? People saying negative stuff to you (even if this is for valid and reasonable reasons) that you strongly disagree with/misinterpret. And when you resort to comments like this, it very much does come across to me (as it does to others) like a child throwing a tantrum.

And before you start attacking me for saying that, I'm not setting out to be cruel or nasty to you in pointing out such things. I'm simply speaking (honestly) as I find. There is a difference between the two things.

I never used to notice this stuff so much (although did gather that you get upset by things very easily which I found/find very understandable) and genuinely did start off feeling very sorry for you. In fact, I've felt that way for most of the time I've been here. That's why I took time to be supportive to you in private and publicly in threads. But now I'm not always saying things that you like hearing (whenever I cease using sympathetic/empathetic comments towards you which isn't appropriate to do in communications with others all the time), you're now starting to show this kind of online behaviour towards me regularly too.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 03:21:24 AM by Emma286 »

Offline Emma286

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #236 on: July 08, 2017, 03:49:25 AM »
This also fits Gaslighting.  A vicious fallacy of evidence in order to disoriente a vulnerable opponent to make her doubt her sanity.

Anyone can be accused of gaslighting.  That in itself can be a tactic of abuse - to tell someone that expressing their legitimate difficulties with you all amounts to them gaslighting you.

Is this still abuse if the accusation is made as a result of unintentional error?

It's just that I have some understanding of how people can easily reach incorrect conclusions about others/strongly believe them - without any kind of deliberate harmful intent towards said other person being behind things.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #237 on: July 08, 2017, 11:27:32 AM »
If it's part of a pattern of behaviour that someone refuses to recognize, then that refusal to recognize it is the decision to abuse.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #238 on: July 08, 2017, 11:36:19 AM »
Ah, got you! Thank you for taking the time to explain Azdgari.

Offline junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #239 on: August 06, 2017, 02:25:48 PM »
If it's part of a pattern of behaviour that someone refuses to recognize, then that refusal to recognize it is the decision to abuse.

Got some evidence for that claim. 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #240 on: August 06, 2017, 02:43:21 PM »
Ah, got you! Thank you for taking the time to explain Azdgari.

That took 5 seconds.  Why do you just take his word for it?  I'd like to see some evidence.

If morality is determined by reciprocity then the remark that triggered my behavior ( so much like Trump, I will make everybody at school unhappy) was immoral as well as inaccurate.

The late Hitchens view, that one should treat others the way they want to be treated is true human morality we all just failed.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #241 on: August 06, 2017, 08:03:33 PM »
Got some evidence for that claim.

Sure. If behaviour X is abusing others, and you know that, and you have the option of therapy or whatever to help NOT engage in that behaviour but refuse to recognize the problem, then that refusal ends up leaving the abusive tendencies intact.

Do you have some reason to think this isn't true? Seems sort of self evident to me.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2017, 04:37:19 AM »
The late Hitchens view, that one should treat others the way they want to be treated is true human morality we all just failed.

I've never been comfortable with that as a view of morality - I find it shallow and somewhat of a "cop-out".  To pick two examples: Bob wants to eat only junk food and for me to shut up about the health risks - even though all his medical tests show he is prime candidate for heart attack.  I would not regard it as especially moral for me to acquiesce to his request, and to ignore his diet and health risks.  Sometimes morality expressly requires that we do NOT treat people the way they want to be treated.

Second example: I am mugged in the park.  The mugger wants me to give him my money, and (I'm sure) to not fight back, to not pursue him, to not report to the police.  Is it moral to treat him the way he wants to be treated?

So I'm convinced that "treat others the way they want to be treated" is NOT a useful stopping point for morality - though it is perhaps a reasonable starting point for adjustment.

Reciprocity is indeed another useful foundation for morality, usually stating that if it is okay for me to do something to you, it is therefore similarly okay for you to do something to me - or, more broadly, that whatever it is okay to do in one direction, it is okay to do in the opposite.  Again, useful starting point - but again, not something that can be carried through to an ending without caveats.

For example: okay for a teacher to restrict the freedoms of my children when they haven't done their homework?  Usually, yes.  Okay for them to restrict HIS freedom if he does something they do not approve of?  Almost without exception, no.

I would always be cautious of a one-line morality.
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Offline albeto

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2017, 10:28:48 AM »
If morality is determined by reciprocity then the remark that triggered my behavior ( so much like Trump, I will make everybody at school unhappy) was immoral as well as inaccurate.

Balderdash. The remark that triggered your behavior was morally justified as it was a matter of making a literary analogy between similar points when the analogy attempted to explain a point that was, and sadly continues to be, beyond your ken. Your offence at the analogy isn't indicative of the analogy having been immoral. I submit it's indicative of your impulsive, irrational, and aggressive behavior when responding in stress.

Furthermore, this is so far off the OP that once again, threads started by jb are inevitably turned into threads about jb, complete with statements of defense against non existent accusations.

The late Hitchens view, that one should treat others the way they want to be treated is true human morality we all just failed.

I doubt you understand what he said, but would be happy to read the quote or section of a book or article from which you got this idea if you would be willing to share. The golden rule is an unreliable litmus test for moral behavior, for reasons Anfauglir pointed out, and numerous others.

Offline Jag

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2017, 02:55:00 PM »
The late Hitchens view, that one should treat others the way they want to be treated is true human morality we all just failed.

Chiming in on this part - my Communications Ethics instructor took a similar stance, but in her case, it was related to the 'virtue of caring' - that is to say, if you are caring for someone, you need to consider the way in which that someone wants to be cared for. I always parallel with my best friend and I and our different responses to being ill. Ms. R wants to be fussed over and coddled when she's sick, she prefers hands-on companionship and a lot of direct focused attention. I'm the EXACT opposite - I want a box of kleenex, a big glass of water, and to be left alone once those two needs have been met. I prefer to be sick in peace and privacy. Should the day come that we are all each other has left, we'll both need to go against our personal preferences and natural inclinations when caring for the other.

My example is simplistic but it demonstrates the point (I hope). You show that you care for other people in the way THEY wish to be shown that you care. Of course there are limits - I'm not going to cooperate with a drama queen in mid-crisis, but once they calm down, I'll chose my words carefully and speak with  CALM compassion about the issue at hand.

As another example, if I'm not a hugger[1], this doesn't mean that I'm obligated to hug people I care about who ARE huggers; we can compromise and find a less uncomfortable means of showing physical affection. The nature of the dynamic HAS to be reciprocal, and when it is, these things work themselves out pretty quickly. It just requires that people PAY ATTENTION. A non-hugger might not object at all to a one-arm semi hug across the back of the shoulders, or a quick squeeze of both hands, or a soft touch on the arm.

I'm living this experience right now. I'm in Portland, visiting members of my newly discovered biological family. We're closely related but they and I have no shared history, so we're kind of stumbling along learning about each other. Because we all have an investment in this being a good experience, we're paying a great deal of attention to everyone's behavior and body language. It's actually kind of funny to do, and to witness - we're all being cautious about stepping on toes, but also unable to stop the endless fascination and questions. It's been amazing to watch the process, even while I'm epicenter of it. It IS working, and I'm quite sure it's because we're all paying close attention to each others subtle cues.
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Online velkyn

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2017, 03:27:13 PM »
here is supposedly the transcript of Hitch speaking about the golden rule:

http://hitchensdebates.blogspot.com/2010/08/hitchens-vs-kresta-ave-maria-radio.html

here's part but the whole thing needs to be read
Quote
HITCHENS: Yes, I'm willing to debate it until the cows come home and, "I'm not sure," is the answer to that. I mean I'll give you my favorite example, which is the one that most people accept most willingly, is the so-called Golden Rule that seems to have occurred in all societies and it certainly predates Jesus and it's in Rabbi Hillel and it's in The Analects of Confucius in some form: Don't do to another person what you would find repulsive to be done to yourself. It's universally intelligible and, you know, rather nice but fatally flawed because it's only as good as the person saying. In other words, I shouldn't want done to Charles Manson anything I wouldn't want done to myself? Excuse me, that's nonsense. Surely some people deserve harsh treatment that I don't feel I deserve myself. They chose—ok, let's take some other biblical rules: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Everyone sees the fatal flaw in that: the world would end up blind and toothless. On the other hand, in the New Testament it says only if you're without sin should you should be casting any stones. (That verse turns out to be added to the Bible very much later than the Gospel in which it appears but still it's an immoral—it could be an immoral injunction because, by that standard, you wouldn't be able to arrest Charles Manson because you would yourself have been a sinner.)
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Offline albeto

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #246 on: August 07, 2017, 03:54:51 PM »
So many good examples about the unreliability of this rule of reciprocity as a moral standard. A moral guidepost, sure, I think there can be room for that. But determining moral behavior simply isn't this simple. The more we understand about human behavior in general, the more we can understand intent and behavior, as well as our shifting, evolving ideas of what it means to be moral. It's one reason holy books lead to such immoral actions - they have a terrible track record of getting human behavior right. Starting with a wrong premise leads to wrong conclusions.

Way back at the beginning of this thread the premise was offered that promiscuity causes suffering. I think it's been pretty well established that promiscuity in and of itself is morally neutral, and any consequences of suffering or pleasure are related to so many other variables as to make this question useless. Perhaps the question might be, does ignorance or rejection of another person's needs cause suffering?