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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2017, 12:04:05 AM »
Oh dear, this isn't going so well for some of us. Let's take a look at this....

Evidence - Well, Jst, what evidence would convince you that Columbus sailed to the Americas? Does it actually matter to your everyday life or even your ultimate destiny that Columbus did, or did not, discover the Americas? Yet there is no need to worry in the case of evidence. The Wiki page, aside from giving all the information we have about Columbus has an extensive bibliography which, no doubt, leads us to many original documents by many different people to the extent that no one could reasonably disagree that Columbus made the voyage he did. All the contemporaneous material is quite sufficient for us to conclude that the events really happened.

So, to start with, evidence needs a selection of contemporaneous writings describing the events we are interested in by independent people. For some historical figures, though, we are left with different things - walls of hieroglyphs describing the life of a pharaoh, maybe a stone pillar describing a war but these are for events many centuries before Jesus when papyrus or paper were uncommon and therefore not used. By the time of Jesus, there was an extensive use of writing - indeed to be a centurion required the skills of writing and reading in order that orders could be exchanged so there was a growing group of people in Roman times who were literate.

So that brings us back to the evidence surrounding Jesus - or rather the lack of it. Various centurions and above are likely to have been involved in some way with the events the gospels describe but, for some reason, no one write anything down even though the Romans loved their records and recorded everything. So there are no contemporaneous accounts. This is where the 'paper trail' describing Jesus is missing. What we have instead is accounts written long after his death by people who never met him. That is what is unconvincing. Heck, the gospels aren't even sure which day Jesus was crucified - shame the Romans didn't note it down!

Finally, if a god came to me I would start with wondering what my mind was up to. Our minds are highly creative and can manage to  conjure up all sorts of things - we can even see a dead relative in their favourite chair in the days after their death. So I would have to ask if this god was a creation of my own mind or something real. In effect I would have to ask the god to leave something physical behind to show that he had been here. If that was not possible for an omnipotent god, I would have to assume that my mind had created this being and that is was not real.

So what does Roman history teach us about the Jews during the time?  Unless they made significant records of Jewish history then I would not expect them to write about Jewish criminals.

There are scholars that say the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.  How do you know they're wrong?

And because God has the power to leave something behind that doesn't mean that he will, or even that he should. 

There are web sites devoted to reconciling apparant contradictions in the Bible, inluding the time of his death.  Some of these debates, including the time of Jesus' death, are centuries old.  When do you decide that debating is pointless?

It's not that noone has answered objections about the Bible.  Debates have gone on for centuries.  Even today things are debated at very high scholarly levels.  Do you really think we're going to settle it here on these forums? 

For me, all of these debates are just noise.  Let me paint you a picture.

Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no evidence for God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Shrugs.

Rinse and repeat.  My relationship is not with the Bible.  It's with Jehovah.  I don't believe in God because of the Bible.  I believe the Bible because of God.  If all I had was a book then I wouldn't believe either.  So while there are still things for me to learn about the scriptures, the question of God is not an issue.  It's not debatable to me.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline eh!

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2017, 12:54:52 AM »
If believers debate each other for centuries to reconcile chunks of the bible and believers debate non believers and all we get are more new religions and debates about the same bible that is enough for me to conclude its either not part of gods plan for humans to know about god and his plan or its all bullshit.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Steve

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #176 on: April 15, 2017, 05:38:50 AM »


I cannot lose a contest I have not entered.  In fact, I aready said I can't prove God exists so you are just beating a dead horse.

And since you just said meeting God himself would not convince you unless he does what you demand, making him a rather puny God, I don't see where there's even room for dialogue about the subject.


 
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #177 on: April 15, 2017, 08:08:27 AM »
There are scholars that say the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.  How do you know they're wrong?

Luke said he wasn't. John was the kind of eye witness that you don't want coming to your trial. Mark somehow missed the Sermon on the Mount. Perhaps Matthew was an eye witness, because he saw Jesus get on two donkeys?

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There are web sites devoted to reconciling apparant contradictions in the Bible, inluding the time of his death.  Some of these debates, including the time of Jesus' death, are centuries old.  When do you decide that debating is pointless?

Is the shroud of Turin genuine? Do you draw the line on this one? It's to do with how biased they are.

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Rinse and repeat.  My relationship is not with the Bible.  It's with Jehovah.  I don't believe in God because of the Bible.  I believe the Bible because of God.  If all I had was a book then I wouldn't believe either.  So while there are still things for me to learn about the scriptures, the question of God is not an issue.  It's not debatable to me.

There's a problem here, because no Christian can seem to ever settle doctrinal problems, no matter what relationship they say they have with God. You for example seem to be in error about the existence of Adam and Eve, or the story of Noah. I'm a bit confused about whether I'm saved by Grace or merit. Can you clear that up for me by talking directly to God?
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #178 on: April 15, 2017, 08:27:45 AM »
Jst,

While I appreciate that you have a strong belief in your god - based on what you consider to be experiences of him, You do still have a problem. After all, how did you know about this god if was not for the bible? It is the only place where one can read about him (well, excepted secondary writing but they have to be based on the bible.) So your position is that the bible is quite secondary for your beliefs yet it is the only reason one might believe? We seem to be in a circular  argument here.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #179 on: April 15, 2017, 09:42:51 AM »
I cannot lose a contest I have not entered.  In fact, I aready said I can't prove God exists so you are just beating a dead horse.

And since you just said meeting God himself would not convince you unless he does what you demand, making him a rather puny God, I don't see where there's even room for dialogue about the subject.

Jst, you came here insisting that you were right (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12167.msg499384.html#msg499384_ ), so you did enter this contest.  And you've failed so far. 

Hmmm, well, JSt, your god had no problem in providing evidence for itself before, so was it a "puny god" before?  Thomas got what he demanded.  Gideon got what he demanded.  What is your excuse now?  Or did you forget those parts of your bible?
So what does Roman history teach us about the Jews during the time?  Unless they made significant records of Jewish history then I would not expect them to write about Jewish criminals.
unfortunately for you, JC wasn't a just a "jewish criminal", since the Romans supposedly were the actors in this. They would have recorded this *if* it happened.  But they didn't notice this happening, nor the dead rising from the graves, the sun going dark in the middle of the day or a major earthquake all happening on the *same* day.  They also didn't notice this person supposedly gathering a Roman legion's worth of men (not to mention women and children) right outside their occupied city, *twice*. 
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There are scholars that say the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.  How do you know they're wrong?
there are scholars who say they weren't.  How do you know they are wrong?  And would you explain how an eyewitness would record something that they didn't witness e.g. the conflicting claims about gethsemane, where no one was awake? 
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And because God has the power to leave something behind that doesn't mean that he will, or even that he should. 
So, in events where something would have been noticed, this god now plays hide and seek?  What a nice excuse.  Funny how Christians don't agree this god leaves evidence or not. 
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There are web sites devoted to reconciling apparant contradictions in the Bible, inluding the time of his death.  Some of these debates, including the time of Jesus' death, are centuries old.  When do you decide that debating is pointless?
Indeed.  And we have Christians who claim that their version is true and no one else' is, and surprise, no evidence.  When do you decide that all of this is just nonsense?  Debating may be pointless, but even more pointless is thinking that anyone should believe you, Jst, when *you* don't believe anyone else. 
Quote
It's not that noone has answered objections about the Bible.  Debates have gone on for centuries.  Even today things are debated at very high scholarly levels.  Do you really think we're going to settle it here on these forums? 
Debates have gone on for centuries for the exact reason that no one has answered objections about the bible.  They make excuses that don't hold up and aren't believed by other Christians.  In that you can't convince each other, again, why should you be believed and why should you not be countered every time you make  baseless claims, JST? 
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For me, all of these debates are just noise.  Let me paint you a picture.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no evidence for God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Shrugs.
Nice to see that you are the first man here too, jst.  You make the same claims that no one sees the god that they worship, just like a non-JW points out to you.  How do you know that the second man is wrong?  Surely you can tell us, right? Or do you have a problem, in that you have no more evidence than they do?
Quote
Rinse and repeat.  My relationship is not with the Bible.  It's with Jehovah.  I don't believe in God because of the Bible.  I believe the Bible because of God.  If all I had was a book then I wouldn't believe either.  So while there are still things for me to learn about the scriptures, the question of God is not an issue.  It's not debatable to me.
Yep, it's not debatable to you, because all you have is dogma and you don't have the open mind that so many theists claim that atheists don't have.  All you have *is* the bible because we don't see that you are any "saved" than anyone else, still unable to do the miracles that JC promised, etc.  Most, if not all theists, especially Christians, claim that they have a "relationship" with their god.  There's nothing to show this at all, and it's a convenient excuse when Christians realize that their bible isn't quite what they would hope, full of failed promises, amazing ignorance and outright falsehoods. 

Again, why are you here, jst?  You came to convince us that you and only you were right.  That hasn't worked out so well. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 09:48:20 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #180 on: April 15, 2017, 09:50:50 AM »
All I can say is...


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline wheels5894

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #181 on: April 15, 2017, 11:07:09 AM »
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #182 on: April 15, 2017, 11:36:02 AM »

For me, all of these debates are just noise.  Let me paint you a picture.

Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no evidence for God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Shrugs.

Rinse and repeat.  My relationship is not with the Bible.  It's with Jehovah.  I don't believe in God because of the Bible.  I believe the Bible because of God.  If all I had was a book then I wouldn't believe either.  So while there are still things for me to learn about the scriptures, the question of God is not an issue.  It's not debatable to me.

Do you believe every individual is accurate with regard to interpreting their experiences?

How do you know if someone holds a delusional belief?

Can that individual with the delusion know if they hold a delusion?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #183 on: April 15, 2017, 11:08:01 PM »
I cannot lose a contest I have not entered.  In fact, I aready said I can't prove God exists so you are just beating a dead horse.

And since you just said meeting God himself would not convince you unless he does what you demand, making him a rather puny God, I don't see where there's even room for dialogue about the subject.

Jst, you came here insisting that you were right (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12167.msg499384.html#msg499384_ ), so you did enter this contest.  And you've failed so far. 

Hmmm, well, JSt, your god had no problem in providing evidence for itself before, so was it a "puny god" before?  Thomas got what he demanded.  Gideon got what he demanded.  What is your excuse now?  Or did you forget those parts of your bible?
So what does Roman history teach us about the Jews during the time?  Unless they made significant records of Jewish history then I would not expect them to write about Jewish criminals.
unfortunately for you, JC wasn't a just a "jewish criminal", since the Romans supposedly were the actors in this. They would have recorded this *if* it happened.  But they didn't notice this happening, nor the dead rising from the graves, the sun going dark in the middle of the day or a major earthquake all happening on the *same* day.  They also didn't notice this person supposedly gathering a Roman legion's worth of men (not to mention women and children) right outside their occupied city, *twice*. 
Quote
There are scholars that say the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.  How do you know they're wrong?
there are scholars who say they weren't.  How do you know they are wrong?  And would you explain how an eyewitness would record something that they didn't witness e.g. the conflicting claims about gethsemane, where no one was awake? 
Quote
And because God has the power to leave something behind that doesn't mean that he will, or even that he should. 
So, in events where something would have been noticed, this god now plays hide and seek?  What a nice excuse.  Funny how Christians don't agree this god leaves evidence or not. 
Quote
There are web sites devoted to reconciling apparant contradictions in the Bible, inluding the time of his death.  Some of these debates, including the time of Jesus' death, are centuries old.  When do you decide that debating is pointless?
Indeed.  And we have Christians who claim that their version is true and no one else' is, and surprise, no evidence.  When do you decide that all of this is just nonsense?  Debating may be pointless, but even more pointless is thinking that anyone should believe you, Jst, when *you* don't believe anyone else. 
Quote
It's not that noone has answered objections about the Bible.  Debates have gone on for centuries.  Even today things are debated at very high scholarly levels.  Do you really think we're going to settle it here on these forums? 
Debates have gone on for centuries for the exact reason that no one has answered objections about the bible.  They make excuses that don't hold up and aren't believed by other Christians.  In that you can't convince each other, again, why should you be believed and why should you not be countered every time you make  baseless claims, JST? 
Quote
For me, all of these debates are just noise.  Let me paint you a picture.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Looks to his right.  He hears people say, "There is no evidence for God"
Man:  Looks to his left.  Sees God.
Man:  Shrugs.
Nice to see that you are the first man here too, jst.  You make the same claims that no one sees the god that they worship, just like a non-JW points out to you.  How do you know that the second man is wrong?  Surely you can tell us, right? Or do you have a problem, in that you have no more evidence than they do?
Quote
Rinse and repeat.  My relationship is not with the Bible.  It's with Jehovah.  I don't believe in God because of the Bible.  I believe the Bible because of God.  If all I had was a book then I wouldn't believe either.  So while there are still things for me to learn about the scriptures, the question of God is not an issue.  It's not debatable to me.
Yep, it's not debatable to you, because all you have is dogma and you don't have the open mind that so many theists claim that atheists don't have.  All you have *is* the bible because we don't see that you are any "saved" than anyone else, still unable to do the miracles that JC promised, etc.  Most, if not all theists, especially Christians, claim that they have a "relationship" with their god.  There's nothing to show this at all, and it's a convenient excuse when Christians realize that their bible isn't quite what they would hope, full of failed promises, amazing ignorance and outright falsehoods. 

Again, why are you here, jst?  You came to convince us that you and only you were right.  That hasn't worked out so well.

In the years since then I have learned the pointlessness of it.  You have your own biblical dogma and that's the end of it.  When your faulty reasoning is pointed out, nothing changes.  For example, I have already pointed out the flawed reasoning about "God has proven himself before so why not now".  Once again.........consider that the Bible covers thousands of years of history.  In view of that, God proves himself in that way very rarely.  But even though this has been pointed out by me twice now, I'm sure the same dogma will continue.  It is like debating a brick wall.  It's pointless.

I've already explained Gethsemane.  Can you really not think of how anyone could have found out?  The simplest answer is often correct.

Pointing out that others have different beliefs only proves people have different beliefs.  And you are just another bickering voice among them, not any different at all.



 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline wheels5894

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #184 on: April 16, 2017, 06:35:54 AM »
Jst,

I don't think you can substantiate the idea that atheists have 'biblical dogma'. Dogma is the collected teachings - like Catholic Dogma for example, where the various teachings are gathered together. I'm sure there must be JW dogma too. An atheist looks at the bible like they might look at any old book and asks questions as to its accuracy and so forth. It takes a religion to develop dogma - it's what they specialise in!

That we question the facts in the bible is because there are no sources outwith the bible for the various facts it claims. It makes people suspicious when there is only one source of facts. I am aware that theists are no encouraged / downright dissuaded from questioning the teachings of their church but, really, ought one look critically at the various texts to question them rather than being a good boy and accepting what one is told?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #185 on: April 16, 2017, 09:20:44 AM »
In the years since then I have learned the pointlessness of it.  You have your own biblical dogma and that's the end of it.  When your faulty reasoning is pointed out, nothing changes.  For example, I have already pointed out the flawed reasoning about "God has proven himself before so why not now".  Once again.........consider that the Bible covers thousands of years of history.  In view of that, God proves himself in that way very rarely.  But even though this has been pointed out by me twice now, I'm sure the same dogma will continue.  It is like debating a brick wall.  It's pointless.

I've already explained Gethsemane.  Can you really not think of how anyone could have found out?  The simplest answer is often correct.

Pointing out that others have different beliefs only proves people have different beliefs.  And you are just another bickering voice among them, not any different at all.

Derp derp.  God has never proven himself. The argument is that a fictional God is better at showing himself, when people can make shit up, and in a multi-religious environment, where the dogma is not so established as to reject a new religion.  The Hebrews were the first people to write all their bullshit down, and this lead to a more rigid history, and denial of anything heretical.  It took a major effort to fake some more stuff up, with Jesus and Mohammad. The only environment where we could fake more religious stuff, would be in the event of the fall of western civilization. You need some kind of turmoil to do it. Ultimately, the people with more guns win. Left to its own devices, Islam would probably win, and Christianity would become "That fake religion that people used to believe."

Your truth comes from being surrounded by others who believe. Sometimes I wonder if enough people believe in something, does it make its own reality?  Then I think that these realities can be shaken to death, by another one that comes along. Humans have this ability to create realities, which turn out to be total shit. But at the time, EVERYBODY got sucked in.

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  And you are just another bickering voice among them, not any different at all.

There is a difference. If atheists are wrong, and JW_Christianity was real, then it was understandable that we didn't believe.

If Christians who believe in Noah and resurrection are found out to be wrong, then they really are just stubborn desperate people who should have grown some common sense.

It's not symmetric.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #186 on: April 16, 2017, 01:34:24 PM »
In the years since then I have learned the pointlessness of it.  You have your own biblical dogma and that's the end of it.  When your faulty reasoning is pointed out, nothing changes.  For example, I have already pointed out the flawed reasoning about "God has proven himself before so why not now".  Once again.........consider that the Bible covers thousands of years of history.  In view of that, God proves himself in that way very rarely.  But even though this has been pointed out by me twice now, I'm sure the same dogma will continue.  It is like debating a brick wall.  It's pointless.

I've already explained Gethsemane.  Can you really not think of how anyone could have found out?  The simplest answer is often correct.

Pointing out that others have different beliefs only proves people have different beliefs.  And you are just another bickering voice among them, not any different at all.

nice try, jst, but sorry, no "biblical dogma" here.  You have yet to show that anyone's reason is "faulty" or that your claims are true.  Again, if your god had no problem in  showing itself, that Thomas and Gideon got their proof, why none now?  All you've given is an excuse that has nothing to support it.   And your new excuse fails again because even if your pitiful god can' tget around to do anything but every thousand years or so, then we still should have at least a few more examples.  Surprise, we don't.  Now what will your *next* excuse be? 

again, JSt, since the claims about gethesame aren't the same in the gospels, I can surely think of how people can make up nonsense. What I am asking is how a supposed eyewitness found out?   Did Jesus tell them?  When?   Did magic god put the information in their minds?  Again, how and when?  What is this "simplest answer" when there are at least two versions of the story?

Again, why are you here, jst?  You tried to convert us, that isn't working out too well is it?   You have failed in your commission. 
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #187 on: April 16, 2017, 10:33:02 PM »
This thead has gone way off topic.  It's not about my beliefs or the Bible.  It was about understanding an atheist world view.

I already know you all want nothing to do with my religion.  I am okay with that.  Now you guys are going to have to accept that I am not changing my religion.  If anyone has questions of a scriptural nature rather than trying to tell me how it is then I will entertain those questions.  Debate is a waste of time.

I tried to answer your questions, several times, from the original post.   The problem is that you view scripture as a 100% reliable historical document.   But why?

What I mean is... hundreds of witnesses can attest to the miracles of Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un.    There are writings where weightlifters in the last olympics credited super human strength to Kim Jong.

Hidden camera magic TV Show... the Carbenaro Effect... people are absolutely convinced every episode that they've seen a miracle....

Yes you did answer and I appreciate it.  However my question has nothing to do with my view of the scriptures.  But now the subject has become about my beliefs or about the scriptures.  My question was not about a specific god or set of theist beliefs.

I have challenged "there is no evidence" by asking people to define "evidence" because using the same argument I can conclude that Christopher Columbus never existed.  I can conclude that I didn't clean my lawn yesterday ... a clean lawn is only evidence of a clean lawn.  I can conclude a lot of true things are false based on the argument "there is no evidence".

If God privately came to you and convinced you that he existed then you would have belief without evidence.  While you certainly couldn't prove his existence to others, it would be a waste of time for others to try to convince you that he doesn't exist.  True?  That's why I say debating is a waste of time.

Thanks JST for the acknowledgement.

You might not be consciously aware of it, but, through this thread, you've referred back to scripture multiple times as your defense of God and why he's different than Santa.

In other words...  the scripture is what makes God stand out.   You quote scripture as your support for your position, but you can't support that scripture is true or proves the supernatural... in fact, you say it can't.   So why should scripture be convincing at all?

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He must come to us.  And the scriptures show that he does.  So this expectation is in line with scripture.

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However, the scriptures don't show that he reveals himself to everyone, nor do they show he loves everyone.

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For example, they (the scriptures) say that he hates those that love violence.

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They say anyone turning their ear from hearing the law, "even their prayers are detestable." (if you don't trust and follow scripture the way JST does) So his disapproval of us can overshadow the relationship we could otherwise have. -  None of us are perfect, and he does not expect it.  (and you know this from... scripture)

It's like... you cherry pick any part of scripture that you think might support your argument, and make excuses for God for the rest of it.

You're saying... it sounds like...   "God comes to some of us and it's absolutely certain that he does... but we can't prove it or demonstrate it to you... it's possible God might not reveal himself to you and he might not love you.  God, of the old testament, ordered and carried out genocides and other horrors, but, he hates those that love violence.   What does that mean?  Maybe if you like to watch Sunday Football, since the scripture is again, entirely unclear... God hates you because you love violence (Football is violent and people love it).   If a person doesn't follow scripture in the right way, even though no denominations agree on this, then God won't hear their prayers... in fact, God detests their prayers.   But he doesn't expect perfection... but he does somehow expect you to understand the law... some of which passed away, and some of which will never pass away until Jehovah comes again... blah blah blah."


It's a bunch of contradictions to have an excuse handy to blame a suffering person as to why Jehovah doesn't answer their prayers or communicate with them.

You have to create no-lose situations from your myth, just like parents have to create no-lose situations for Santa.   Maybe Santa's sleigh is extra dimensional, and he really does like rich kids better... right?   That's why they're blessed with more presents on Christmas morning right?


Here's the thing... let's say you're right, and God only reveals himself to pre-chosen people in such a way that they now have a desire to believe and follow the law.   Well, then, you believe in pre-destination, and there's nothing the rest of us could ever do to find God.

God only wants to save a tiny sliver of people, burn the rest, and we can't find him because of some legalistic loophole where we don't have faith because we've never seen an ounce of proof, so there's no reason to try to follow the Bible... and because of that, God refuses to provide a connection or proof.

If God is all powerful, and he only wants to reveal himself at the right time, in the right way, to a few lucky people like you... who then can't prove jack-crap to a single other person...   what's the point?

I'm not more powerful than a universe creator.   If he exists and doesn't want me to know he's there, I never will.

If he doesn't exist, also, then you're wasting your time... either way, anything you do is a waste of time because God either doesn't exist, or he doesn't care to have a relationship with the rest of us.




    .
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 10:35:24 PM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #188 on: April 18, 2017, 01:56:36 AM »
This thead has gone way off topic.  It's not about my beliefs or the Bible.  It was about understanding an atheist world view.

I already know you all want nothing to do with my religion.  I am okay with that.  Now you guys are going to have to accept that I am not changing my religion.  If anyone has questions of a scriptural nature rather than trying to tell me how it is then I will entertain those questions.  Debate is a waste of time.

I tried to answer your questions, several times, from the original post.   The problem is that you view scripture as a 100% reliable historical document.   But why?

What I mean is... hundreds of witnesses can attest to the miracles of Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un.    There are writings where weightlifters in the last olympics credited super human strength to Kim Jong.

Hidden camera magic TV Show... the Carbenaro Effect... people are absolutely convinced every episode that they've seen a miracle....

Yes you did answer and I appreciate it.  However my question has nothing to do with my view of the scriptures.  But now the subject has become about my beliefs or about the scriptures.  My question was not about a specific god or set of theist beliefs.

I have challenged "there is no evidence" by asking people to define "evidence" because using the same argument I can conclude that Christopher Columbus never existed.  I can conclude that I didn't clean my lawn yesterday ... a clean lawn is only evidence of a clean lawn.  I can conclude a lot of true things are false based on the argument "there is no evidence".

If God privately came to you and convinced you that he existed then you would have belief without evidence.  While you certainly couldn't prove his existence to others, it would be a waste of time for others to try to convince you that he doesn't exist.  True?  That's why I say debating is a waste of time.

Thanks JST for the acknowledgement.

You might not be consciously aware of it, but, through this thread, you've referred back to scripture multiple times as your defense of God and why he's different than Santa.

In other words...  the scripture is what makes God stand out.   You quote scripture as your support for your position, but you can't support that scripture is true or proves the supernatural... in fact, you say it can't.   So why should scripture be convincing at all?

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He must come to us.  And the scriptures show that he does.  So this expectation is in line with scripture.

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However, the scriptures don't show that he reveals himself to everyone, nor do they show he loves everyone.

Quote
For example, they (the scriptures) say that he hates those that love violence.

Quote
They say anyone turning their ear from hearing the law, "even their prayers are detestable." (if you don't trust and follow scripture the way JST does) So his disapproval of us can overshadow the relationship we could otherwise have. -  None of us are perfect, and he does not expect it.  (and you know this from... scripture)

It's like... you cherry pick any part of scripture that you think might support your argument, and make excuses for God for the rest of it.

You're saying... it sounds like...   "God comes to some of us and it's absolutely certain that he does... but we can't prove it or demonstrate it to you... it's possible God might not reveal himself to you and he might not love you.  God, of the old testament, ordered and carried out genocides and other horrors, but, he hates those that love violence.   What does that mean?  Maybe if you like to watch Sunday Football, since the scripture is again, entirely unclear... God hates you because you love violence (Football is violent and people love it).   If a person doesn't follow scripture in the right way, even though no denominations agree on this, then God won't hear their prayers... in fact, God detests their prayers.   But he doesn't expect perfection... but he does somehow expect you to understand the law... some of which passed away, and some of which will never pass away until Jehovah comes again... blah blah blah."


It's a bunch of contradictions to have an excuse handy to blame a suffering person as to why Jehovah doesn't answer their prayers or communicate with them.

You have to create no-lose situations from your myth, just like parents have to create no-lose situations for Santa.   Maybe Santa's sleigh is extra dimensional, and he really does like rich kids better... right?   That's why they're blessed with more presents on Christmas morning right?


Here's the thing... let's say you're right, and God only reveals himself to pre-chosen people in such a way that they now have a desire to believe and follow the law.   Well, then, you believe in pre-destination, and there's nothing the rest of us could ever do to find God.

God only wants to save a tiny sliver of people, burn the rest, and we can't find him because of some legalistic loophole where we don't have faith because we've never seen an ounce of proof, so there's no reason to try to follow the Bible... and because of that, God refuses to provide a connection or proof.

If God is all powerful, and he only wants to reveal himself at the right time, in the right way, to a few lucky people like you... who then can't prove jack-crap to a single other person...   what's the point?

I'm not more powerful than a universe creator.   If he exists and doesn't want me to know he's there, I never will.

If he doesn't exist, also, then you're wasting your time... either way, anything you do is a waste of time because God either doesn't exist, or he doesn't care to have a relationship with the rest of us.
    .
Yes I referenced scripture in response to you bringing up the "God of the Bible".  I expressed some of what I've read in the scriptures related to your post.  That is not arguing.  But you guys seem to have set your own goal post of trying to disprove my God.  That is not the goalpost.  The goal post was to explain the rationale behind atheism because to me anything beyond agnoticism is not rational.   The way I perceive these arguments you all are saying God doesn't exist unless he's proven to exist.  That is an argument from ignorance.

I have not cherry picked.  If I had cherry picked I might have said God answers every prayer.  That would be just setting you up for failure, on the off chance you ever decided to test prayer out after knowing some things you perhaps didn't know.   

And why do you try to make what I said out to be gibberish?  It's not hard to understand nor is it irrational or unjust.  God does not reward displeasing him by answering prayer.  That would be foolish and self-defeating.

God hates those that love violence.  What does that mean?  Here you're asking for interpretation.  I'm not going to answer that for you.  That is ultimately a matter of conscience, but it is important to be aware of such things.  The moral of the story is to study the scriptures and do your best to approach God with a clear conscience.  To know the good you ought to do, and not do it, that is a sin (James 4:17).  Sin leads to a defiled conscience which leads to hindered prayer.  Some persons even cease praying because of a guilty conscience.

I don't believe God only reveals himself to pre-chosen people.  Luck has nothing to do with it.  It only has to do with applying what you know about Jehovah through the teachings of Christ.  I don't care to debate Adam and Eve, the flood, the exodus, the authorship of the scriptures, etc., etc.  It's all just noise.  If you want to know if Jehovah is real, call out to him and repent of anything you know to be wrong.

And I don't want to hear about the disagreements in Christendom.  When Christendom rids itself of secterianism, stops it's warmongering, quits trying to set up it's own [political] kingdoms over the earth, stops oppressing the poor with it's economic systems and corruption, stops oppressing those that serve Jehovah in peace then maybe it will have learned some truth.   

Your last sentence is true.  If God does not exist then everything we do is a "vanity and a chasing after wind".  We should all eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow we die.  But if God does exist then everything we do can endure forever.

Concerning your comments about God's judgements that have resulted in the death of people, that is consistent with what the scriptures teach.  "Vengeance is mine" is what they teach.  It is for this very reason Christians are taught against exacting vengeance themselves.  That vengeance is coming because of those that love violence, ESPECIALLY those that do violence in his name when he has never commanded it.  Without those, the earth will finally have peace. 

Yes I have referenced more scripture.  Whether or not anyone accepts them as true is not my call.   But I think the first step is accurately understanding them.  Whether or not you accept my understanding is up to you.  If you want to talk about contradicting doctrines then I am not your man.  Talk to those in Christendom.  I am no part of that.  I do not worship their borrowed trinitarian God.  I do not celebrate their borrowed pagan holy days.  I do not participate in their politics and nationalism.  My only interest is finding Christ's sheep among them.  There are no divisions among my brothers and sisters, not doctrinal, racial, class, or national.  We are all one and are at peace.  To me, that is a sign from God.  "By THIS all will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."  (John 13:35)







       
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #189 on: April 18, 2017, 02:08:00 AM »
If you want to know if Jehovah is real, call out to him and repent of anything you know to be wrong.

I better pass this top secret method along to clergy that are turning atheist.

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"By THIS all will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."  (John 13:35)

I have always thought that John is in contradiction to Matthew, on this one.

[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That, and many other neglections of John, suggest he is a fake.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #190 on: April 18, 2017, 02:32:32 AM »
If you want to know if Jehovah is real, call out to him and repent of anything you know to be wrong.

I better pass this top secret method along to clergy that are turning atheist.

Quote
"By THIS all will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."  (John 13:35)

I have always thought that John is in contradiction to Matthew, on this one.

[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That, and many other neglections of John, suggest he is a fake.

There is no contradiction.  The Bible itself sums it up. "As we have therefore opportunity, let us work what is good toward all men, but especially toward those that are of the household of faith" (Gal 6:10).


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #191 on: April 18, 2017, 03:14:25 AM »
But the bible says you should love those that hate you even more.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #192 on: April 18, 2017, 08:40:33 AM »
But the bible says you should love those that hate you even more.

LOL...could you imagine if someone wrote a book with as many contradictions as the Bible has today?  Or if Congress tried to enact laws based on scripture?  They'd be laughed out of the room.  What a mess that book is - who even knows how many authors it had, since it was written over such a long period.  God changes so many times and makes so many conflicting statements because countless people are claiming to be hearing the word of God and adding scripture.  Isn't it as simple as that?  We're still seeing it today with countless churches that all disagree with each other, and we'll see it 200 years from now when churches love gays, women in the workplace, women as presidents and leaders etc.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #193 on: April 18, 2017, 10:10:16 AM »

God hates those that love violence. 

I guess Jst hasn't read the OT.  quite a pile of foreskins that god needs from pure violence. 
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I don't believe God only reveals himself to pre-chosen people.
 

The bible itself says that this is wrong.

Quote
I don't care to debate Adam and Eve, the flood, the exodus, the authorship of the scriptures, etc., etc.  It's all just noise.  If you want to know if Jehovah is real, call out to him and repent of anything you know to be wrong.
for it being "noise", it sure seems that your god and JC were interested in it.  And your magic spell doesn't work. Tried that when I was losing my faith, nothing happened.

again, why are you participating on the forum, JST?   if you don't want to be bothered with facts, and you fail repeatedly with yoru attempts to claim you are correct, what purpose do you have?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #194 on: April 18, 2017, 10:37:26 AM »
Yes I referenced scripture in response to you bringing up the "God of the Bible".  I expressed some of what I've read in the scriptures related to your post.  That is not arguing.  But you guys seem to have set your own goal post of trying to disprove my God.  That is not the goalpost.  The goal post was to explain the rationale behind atheism because to me anything beyond agnoticism is not rational.   The way I perceive these arguments you all are saying God doesn't exist unless he's proven to exist.  That is an argument from ignorance.

Throughout history, many worldly natural events that were once attributed to various gods is now explained through science.   (lightning, tidal waves, earthquakes, etc)

The Bible promises that prayers will be answered and they're not.

And God has mythical and contradictory qualities...  he's loving, but only convinces a few people of his true message...  he's merciful, but lets 99.999999999% of humans go to hell...  he's infinitely powerful and smart, but, he gets jealous and orders genocides...   his holy book indicates historic events that never happened, such as a world wide flood that covered everything, or the earth being 6,000 years old, or things like that.

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I have not cherry picked.  If I had cherry picked I might have said God answers every prayer.  That would be just setting you up for failure, on the off chance you ever decided to test prayer out after knowing some things you perhaps didn't know.   

I've said to you many times, I'd be quite happy with ONE concrete, provable example of God doing ANYTHING that couldn't happen randomly.   Show me one kid who had down syndrome yesterday who has perfect mental health and development levels today.   Pick anything.   It doesn't have to be every prayer.   But it can't be a random coincidence that you then credit to prayer.

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And why do you try to make what I said out to be gibberish?  It's not hard to understand nor is it irrational or unjust.  God does not reward displeasing him by answering prayer.  That would be foolish and self-defeating.

You presume to know how God thinks again.

Quote
God hates those that love violence.  What does that mean?  Here you're asking for interpretation.  I'm not going to answer that for you.  That is ultimately a matter of conscience, but it is important to be aware of such things.  The moral of the story is to study the scriptures and do your best to approach God with a clear conscience.  To know the good you ought to do, and not do it, that is a sin (James 4:17).  Sin leads to a defiled conscience which leads to hindered prayer.  Some persons even cease praying because of a guilty conscience.

My point was... believers like you have a ready excuse any time prayer is not answered.   Maybe it's because the believer likes to watch hockey and football, and that's why God didn't answer their prayer to spare their child from years of suffering with cancer.   Everything you say is an excuse for why God doesn't have to fulfill any of his promises.

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I don't believe God only reveals himself to pre-chosen people.  Luck has nothing to do with it.  It only has to do with applying what you know about Jehovah through the teachings of Christ.  I don't care to debate Adam and Eve, the flood, the exodus, the authorship of the scriptures, etc., etc.  It's all just noise.  If you want to know if Jehovah is real, call out to him and repent of anything you know to be wrong.

Did you believe because you were raised with this as a child?  Do you believe because you took some event in your life to be "Jehovah working in your heart"?   

Most non-believers have fervently sought God at some point in their lives.   But again, you have to blame the humans, and make excuses for God... either they are lying... or they didn't repent of all sin... or they didn't REALLY mean it.

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And I don't want to hear about the disagreements in Christendom.  When Christendom rids itself of secterianism, stops it's warmongering, quits trying to set up it's own [political] kingdoms over the earth, stops oppressing the poor with it's economic systems and corruption, stops oppressing those that serve Jehovah in peace then maybe it will have learned some truth.   

You're the "one true Scotsman"... I know.

Quote
Your last sentence is true.  If God does not exist then everything we do is a "vanity and a chasing after wind".  We should all eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow we die.  But if God does exist then everything we do can endure forever.

But yet, I don't believe in God and I still do good deeds for people...   because I don't think a good deed has to have eternal value to have value to my friends or family or someone who needs help.  If I do something and it helps someone for 5 minutes.  I can live with that.   I'm not raping and drinking and stealing, in spite of there being no God at all.

Quote
Concerning your comments about God's judgements that have resulted in the death of people, that is consistent with what the scriptures teach.  "Vengeance is mine" is what they teach.  It is for this very reason Christians are taught against exacting vengeance themselves.  That vengeance is coming because of those that love violence, ESPECIALLY those that do violence in his name when he has never commanded it.  Without those, the earth will finally have peace. 

More excuses for the contradictions...   God is super intelligent and merciful... BUT HE'S VENGEFUL!  BEWARE HIS WRATH!  Grrr.     

You can toss babies off a wall if God commands it... but woe to you if you punch someone that God didn't want punched.   God is a "do as I say and not as I do" kind of childish god... immature and awful.   Worship something like that?

The only reason your God is so inconsistent is that you've invented an imaginary being that has contradictory qualities to explain things that God didn't do in the first place (because he doesn't exist).

Quote
Yes I have referenced more scripture.  Whether or not anyone accepts them as true is not my call.   But I think the first step is accurately understanding them.  Whether or not you accept my understanding is up to you.  If you want to talk about contradicting doctrines then I am not your man.  Talk to those in Christendom.  I am no part of that.  I do not worship their borrowed trinitarian God.  I do not celebrate their borrowed pagan holy days.  I do not participate in their politics and nationalism.  My only interest is finding Christ's sheep among them.  There are no divisions among my brothers and sisters, not doctrinal, racial, class, or national.  We are all one and are at peace.  To me, that is a sign from God.  "By THIS all will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."  (John 13:35)

There wasn't any division among the 9-11 hijackers or the Heaven's Gate cult either... they all agreed that god wanted them to fly planes into buildings or drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

Questioning is how you prevent things like that.  Questioning authority is how you prevent leaders like Hitler.

---

Consider this JST.    Let's say that, once every five years, a person was raised from the dead after 3 days, even if they were embalmed, even if they had fatal wounds... they'd come back exactly as they were when they were alive.   Science and medicine would investigate and not be able to explain this at all.

So, we'd have a situation where millions and millions of people die, but, a teeny tiny percentage experienced a real supernatural occurrence.

Now let's say we investigated and found that every single one of those people who came back from the dead was prayed for by a Jehovah's Witness.

Does that 100% prove Jehovah exists?  No... but, it sure is interesting evidence.    Something is happening, tied to one type of faith, and seems to be a response to prayer.


Or let's say the same thing occurred with Down Syndrome kids... 1 in a million would be cured after a JW prays for them.    That's not "god answering every prayer".

That's "God doing anything... ever... on very rare occasions"

If your God ever acted in any measurable way...   not answering all prayers... not being a cosmic genie... but if your god every got off his ass and did anything for anyone... maybe you'd have something.   And if you do, please lay out your example.

Remember, we're asking for ONE provable example... not ALL... not selfish... not my prayers...   ANY ONE provable EXAMPLE and you win.









     
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #195 on: April 18, 2017, 11:02:17 AM »
What we're ultimately discussing here JST is your brain, and it's proclivity to "believe", and the refusal to let go of those patently false beliefs.  I kinda know what it's like, for while I was not a JW, I was born & raised in a bible-thumping christian home/family.  You have been raised with a particular belief system (and I assume since birth), and within the JW world, the cost for abandoning the fold is great. It's a built-in, fear-based tactic to keep people in the fold, and that alone should be a sign to you that the beliefs are simply not true; for if they were, not only would they map onto reality, but they wouldn't require such cheap, bullying threats.

"The prisoner grows to love his chains." (Plato)

Just Google EX JW, and I'm sure one can find many testimonies of people who have woken up from and left the JW cult, and have told their stories.

I truly hope you have the courage to one day realize that your mind has been abused, and you leave the JW church.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:55:34 PM by Star Stuff »
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #196 on: April 18, 2017, 11:23:56 AM »
It is worth pointing out, Jst, that many on this forum are ex Christians who at one time would said all the same things about praying and asking god in one's heart and all that. What happens is that some people can cope with nothing happening when they do this and others, like us here, realise there's a reason praying doesn't work - it is because there is not a god listening and responding.

Are you absolutely sure that it is a god talking to you and not just your subconscious? How could you tell the difference? 
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #197 on: April 18, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
There are still Christian morons out there who think earthquakes,storms,hurricanes and other natural disasters are proof of God. They think God hates fags,so he brings natural disasters to America. Proof of God doesn't have to be real to them,or in any way proveable,they just view it that way.
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Offline Sinister Minister

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #198 on: April 26, 2017, 04:47:14 AM »
Jst has previously advised the bible contains many literal and nonliteral passages.  When asked what reliable mechanism he uses to identify one from the other he advised he has no mechanism.

When asked if one passage is literal or nonliteral he advised he cannot know for sure but relies on his own understanding of scripture. 

I have no problem with that until he then proclaims certainty and tries to teach (mislead?) others.

If even the elect can be fooled Jst, how do you know you are not? (Or is that passage really nonliteral now?)

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #199 on: April 26, 2017, 05:04:21 AM »
There's a simple answer, Sinister. JWs are taught how to understand the bible texts and essentially told not to think it out for themselves. So the various literal and non-literal passages are what the Watchtower says they are - necessary to make their theological stance on the bible work. Thinking could out someone in danger of working out the Watchtower has got some things wrong - and that would never do!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jag

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #200 on: April 26, 2017, 10:50:02 AM »
Quick interruption - I'm almost certain that jst was not raised as a JW, and IIRC, there's some tension with family members about religion. I might be mixing up stories, but I'm pretty sure jst chose to become a JW.

If I'm mistaken, apologies to all.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Sinister Minister

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #201 on: April 28, 2017, 05:49:40 AM »
Jag that seems mostly accurate but Jst is not a JW, he has his toes testing the water but has not committed for a dip yet.

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #202 on: April 28, 2017, 09:39:24 AM »
Your last sentence is true.  If God does not exist then everything we do is a "vanity and a chasing after wind".  We should all eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow we die.  But if God does exist then everything we do can endure forever.

Christians just keep bringing up the eat, drink and be merry thing.  I've heard this so many times - basically a "who cares then?" if God isn't real.  Why does there have to be a God for us to care about our lives?  Aren't we still responsible for helping out our fellow man and, in many cases, other species, like dogs and cats?  What's wrong with caring about this life if there's no God?  What's wrong with helping out children and adults with special needs?  There are lots of people who volunteer for the Special Olympics that don't believe in God.  Why should we just get drunk and pig out and do whatever just because there's no God?  It makes me think of Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.  When he thinks he's stuck on the same day he just starts pigging out at that restaurant every day.  Some atheists, and Christians, are like that.  Some atheists may be depressed, knowing we'll just die.  But some Christians do whatever they want too, and eat like pigs, etc. because they think this world doesn't matter and they get eternity in heaven.