Author Topic: What's you're answer?  (Read 639 times)

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What's you're answer?
« on: March 21, 2017, 12:33:19 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline BlackLight

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 12:36:28 AM »
Probably not. No good evidence to support God's existence.
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 01:57:39 AM »
I have searched for god, found lies....so prolly no or at least unlikely.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Emma286

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 03:50:18 AM »
I don't see how my responding to the question (as I'd normally do), at this point, will pan out well for either of us.

I'll list all my reasons for seeing he doesn't. You'll use what your religion has taught you (that so far as I can tell you accept without question without the willingness to apply any critical questioning/thinking to it) to try and argue against those reasons. It won't convince me of a thing and you'll learn nothing of value from me.

I've long concluded it's a waste of time to discuss my views with any theist who has not already reached the stage, on their own, that they're prepared to seriously consider (at least as a very real possibility) that their beliefs are inaccurate. So far as I can tell, with no personal offence meant jst,  you're amongst those Christians who aren't.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 05:06:37 AM »
 
Does God exist?  Please explain.
There is no way of knowing. The existence of a thing can be conclusively proved by producing one single instance of said thing.
To put that another way, when the existence of a thing is denied, This can be proven wrong by producing one single instance of the thing said not to exist.

The non-existence of a thing can never be conclusively proved because there is always the theoretical assumption that the thing exists but has not been seen yet or it exists in a place that can not be visited. Unless all places in the universe have been visited and are being constantly observed, we can not be absolutely certain.

So from this we can say that there are only two possible outcome to be made about the existence of a thing:
1, The thing exists.
2, It is unknown if the thing exists or not.
( in a gods case it is always 2)

It is not possible to prove that a thing "does not exist" without further qualifying criteria.
 
If a thing does NOT exist it can not leave any evidence of it's non-existence. Only things that DO exist can leave evidence. So from this we can derive that conclusive proof can only come from the person that claims that a thing exists. It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence.

So it is a pointless argument to ask us if a god exists, and because of the criteria above it is extremely unlikely that a god exists, but we could never be 100% sure. But 99.9 recurring we can. Given the lack of any evidence. 
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 05:11:47 AM »
What if god speaks to you such that you know its god with absolute certainty.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 05:47:50 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

I suspect not, though maybe it depends on which god we are talking about. For example, if it is the Norse gods, then Ragnarok probably isn't far away and we will find out. Similarly, isn't Jesus supposed to be back soon - floating down on clouds?

That said, I would say the god of the OT (Elohim in Genesis) does not exist. According to the story, he creates a flat world with a hard dome over the top with the star moving inside the dome and, of course heaven is sat atop the dome. Now by the time that story had been finally edited, the Greeks had worked out the world was a sphere and made a good shot at the size of the earth too! So we know that the world created by Elohim is not like our world and so it is fair to say that this god does not exist.

The thing is that we need to know which god you want to ask about before a definitive answer can be given.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Nudawn11

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 06:40:00 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

I suspect not, though maybe it depends on which god we are talking about. For example, if it is the Norse gods, then Ragnarok probably isn't far away and we will find out.

Well Thor did come back to join the Avengers. :-)
Maybe Jesus will do the same in a millennium.
I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road. - Stephen Hawking

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 06:51:46 AM »
Part 1

"
Before the beginning
The universe lay in a never-never of twilight
Slowly pulsating with a life that no being inside
Could ever comprehend.
And across this twilight awareness
Spread the ripples of a growing light
Ripples of the ultimate existence.
And a divine love was borne
On the ripples of the mind
For the universe knew that soon
It would transcend away to the spiritual fields
And the great cycle would start again.

And in the cataclysmic release that followed
The remnants of the old existence
Collapsed to conceive space and time.
Yet something in the never-never still stirred.
Something far beyond space and time
Something created at the great collapse
Yet something as eternal
As the causal light.


The existence which knew itself as Huey
Reached out into the universe of space and time
Fumbling for a foothold in a swirling meaninglessness
Huey found the molten spinning sphere of the earth
And he slowed it and cooled it
And the mighty oceans were formed.
And the awareness of Huey
Moved upon the surface of the waters
For he had sensed the warm presence of a new life.
And in the chord to space and time
Huey experienced fulfillment.
And he watched from beyond
As time begat the creature of man
And as man begat a multitude of ideas.

But when man begat symbols in his existence,
When he begat the vehicles of logic
And moved within the world of his beliefs
And more - begat meaning there;
When man begat systems and judgement
And became enmeshed in this nebulous world
- Inside the tissues of his brain.
When man lost the sense of Huey's presence:
Of nature,
Of existence,
Of the deeper self,
Huey was saddened.

"For between the reality
and the unreality
fell the shadow"

And man gave existence to the shadow
And fed it human life
And the shadow grew.
And in the chord to the earth
Huey experienced disappointment.
And he turned from the earth and its oceans
And his awareness wandered far beyond
Toward the realm of the golden light.

But Huey had fostered the earth and its life
Since the beginnings of its creation
And a part of him could not turn away,
And this part
This small speck of emotion and energy
Fled back through the universe
Back toward the earth
And descended into the oceans
Where it had cherished its first existence.

And here in the ocean
Where rolling waters stretch from horizon to horizon
Was conceived an ultimate cyclone.
And from this grey-green heaving breeding ground,
Out of the white-grey fury of the storm
Emanated waves of size the earth had not yet seen.
And these sparkling green mountains spread
From the region of the center
Lumbering in vast lines
of ever increasing size
Silently
Toward the coastal breaks."
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 06:53:33 AM »
For part two of creation by the one true god Huey go here;

http://www.mountainman.com.au/surfi_06.htm
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jetson

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 07:15:29 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

Please first explain, what is God? Be specific, show your work. Once you have established what God is, we can reply. I will not argue with you about what God is, but I cannot answer your question based on thousands of years of beliefs from billions of people as to the existence of something that has no agreed upon definition.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 07:25:57 AM »
Geez Jetson cut him a bit of slack to keep the conversation alive. Just go with whatever god jst is thinking of without asking him what he is thinking of.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 07:26:58 AM »
I don't see how my responding to the question (as I'd normally do), at this point, will pan out well for either of us.

I'll list all my reasons for seeing he doesn't. You'll use what your religion has taught you (that so far as I can tell you accept without question without the willingness to apply any critical questioning/thinking to it) to try and argue against those reasons. It won't convince me of a thing and you'll learn nothing of value from me.

I've long concluded it's a waste of time to discuss my views with any theist who has not already reached the stage, on their own, that they're prepared to seriously consider (at least as a very real possibility) that their beliefs are inaccurate. So far as I can tell, with no personal offence meant jst,  you're amongst those Christians who aren't.

I've come to the exact same conclusion as you.  There's just no point in trying to debate it.  The theist will see this as a personal assault against their character, and of course that's not what's happening.  We're criticizing the religion itself, not the person.  But they don't see it that way because that's such a big part of their identity in their mind.  What if the person grew up going to Bible classes as a child?  We may as well insult them for being African American, or Spanish, or, if you're African American or Spanish yourself and you're the atheist, insult them for being white.  They see it as attacking a huge part of who they are.  It's ingrained in them; they're cultural Christians. 

What's interesting to me is that Jewish friends I have don't feel the same way.  I remember going to a Bar Mitzvah several years ago for a co-workers son, and the co-worker admitted he thought the Torah was pretty silly, but there are still lessons to be learned there and felt his son could benefit from them.  I work with several other Jewish people and I experience similar comments.  Interestingly, most of these people are attorneys, who may be more likely to analyze a situation carefully, start asking questions, and reach a conclusion that way.   You raised the point of believing in God requiring total faith, and putting all your doubts and questions aside.  I wonder if there's a correlation between a person's profession and their ability to believe?  Sure, some can compartmentalize their beliefs, but I bet a lot are intellectually honest with themselves.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 07:27:46 AM »
Geez Jetson cut him a bit of slack to keep the conversation alive. Just go with whatever god jst is thinking of without asking him what he is thinking of.

Not to worry, he will completely ignore my post.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 07:30:33 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

I suspect not, though maybe it depends on which god we are talking about. For example, if it is the Norse gods, then Ragnarok probably isn't far away and we will find out. Similarly, isn't Jesus supposed to be back soon - floating down on clouds?

That said, I would say the god of the OT (Elohim in Genesis) does not exist. According to the story, he creates a flat world with a hard dome over the top with the star moving inside the dome and, of course heaven is sat atop the dome. Now by the time that story had been finally edited, the Greeks had worked out the world was a sphere and made a good shot at the size of the earth too! So we know that the world created by Elohim is not like our world and so it is fair to say that this god does not exist.

The thing is that we need to know which god you want to ask about before a definitive answer can be given.

I"m guessing, by coincidence only, it's the Christian God that was forced down the Native Americans throats in modern day U.S., Mexico and Central and South America in the 1600s by the British and Spanish settlers.  It's weird how they came to the New World to escape religious persecution, then rammed their beliefs down the Native Americans throats. 

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 07:45:39 AM »

I"m guessing, by coincidence only, it's the Christian God that was forced down the Native Americans throats in modern day U.S., Mexico and Central and South America in the 1600s by the British and Spanish settlers.  It's weird how they came to the New World to escape religious persecution, then rammed their beliefs down the Native Americans throats.

History shows how major religions were spread by the sword, and decreed by law, with punishment including death for apostasy. History shows the clear and unambiguous violence from the Old Testament and the Quran. There is simply no way to call any major religion anything other than violent at it's heart, with its main character commanding wholesale slaughter of humans - followed by the prideful stories of those atrocities carried out by humans (whether true or not).

Fear and violence keep religion alive. Fear of death, and violence against those who do not participate.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 09:08:35 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

Please first explain, what is God? Be specific, show your work. Once you have established what God is, we can reply. I will not argue with you about what God is, but I cannot answer your question based on thousands of years of beliefs from billions of people as to the existence of something that has no agreed upon definition.
not to mention the thousands of Jesus cults (they call them denominations)that fight amongst each other as to what Jesus/God is and what his REAL message is. What is God to JST is not God to any other theist on these forums
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 10:44:32 AM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

You are assuming a single god but the god of the OT was a composite of El, Baal, and Yahweh.

On the Merneptah Stele about 1200BC the Canaanite speaking subtribe of IsraEL were still worshipping the chief Canaanite god called EL, that is why they are called IsraEL. At that time they were still in the Egyptian Empire which was being attacked by Philistines and about to collapse. Inscriptions with personal names based on the name of Yahweh only start to appear over two hundred years after the collapse. Yahweh was merged with EL and gained the character and attributes which previously belonged to EL.

Clearly history did not happen the way the bible said it did, and the god of the bible is not who the bible says he is, and he did not do the things the bible claims he did. The early part of the OT is a royal ideology to justify local self rule. Similar developments took place in the neighbouring states.

From the time of the Babylonian Exile the biblical god was made more remote with more remote promises at the end of the world because the immediate political justifications for the religion had failed.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 10:50:39 AM »
No, now stop phishing.
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Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong, So Wrong.

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 03:11:14 PM »
Does God exist?
It seems highly unlikely - even considering how open ended the question is.

Quote
Please explain.

Numerous gods have been proposed and worshiped, and most have faded into memory throughout human history. Of all the gods (including yours) suggested to me directly, or by way of learning something about its followers beliefs, I've yet to see any evidence that suggests that any of these various gods actually exist. Absent such evidence, I conduct my life as though there is no such thing as a god or gods. So far, it seems to work at least as well as any other method of conducting one's life I've encountered.

As it appears to be a necessary note - I make an allowance for the existence of a non-participatory deist type god. But I'm pretty sure that's not what you are proposing, is it?
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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2017, 03:55:06 PM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

Nope.  Reality does not appear to include an entity with the characteristics generally attributed to the entity that carries the label of the arrangement of letters 'g-o-d'.

Counter-questions:
Before you were born, did you exist?  In the time period between your death and subsequent resurrection, do you exist?  In the time period between Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection, did Jesus exist?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 07:01:00 AM »
NO; Do we really need to explain this again?
The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong

Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong, So Wrong.

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »

I"m guessing, by coincidence only, it's the Christian God that was forced down the Native Americans throats in modern day U.S., Mexico and Central and South America in the 1600s by the British and Spanish settlers.  It's weird how they came to the New World to escape religious persecution, then rammed their beliefs down the Native Americans throats.

History shows how major religions were spread by the sword, and decreed by law, with punishment including death for apostasy. History shows the clear and unambiguous violence from the Old Testament and the Quran. There is simply no way to call any major religion anything other than violent at it's heart, with its main character commanding wholesale slaughter of humans - followed by the prideful stories of those atrocities carried out by humans (whether true or not).

Fear and violence keep religion alive. Fear of death, and violence against those who do not participate.

It seems that was the only way it was ever going to be effective, since it's apparent that they couldn't deliver the goods on proof - just like today.   Thank goodness that today, people like BibleStudent and others can't rat us out and have us executed. 

In almost every other facet of life, religious or not, all of us demand proof when making a serious decision. There's one area I can think of where we don't demand this proof, and it can lead to horrible decisions - love.  Like belief in a God, a lot of it is based on emotion and  it can really blind us to the truth.  Also similar to belief in God, you have people that are outside of the circle who can look at things objectively and are telling you that you're making a mistake, but your emotions won't let you admit it.  How many times have people picked the wrong spouse either based on looks, or money, or the spouse seemingly being very confident, and thus a potential great provider, only to be revealed as agonizingly arrogant?  That arrogance kills the marriage over time.  When that happens, the looks and money are meaningless and you just want to escape.

In some ways, I see that as similar to a religious upbringing.  In the beginning it seems great with the love-bombing, and what if you meet a beautiful partner there?  But then you start seeing the cracks in the religion just as you would in your irrational spouse who refuses to question the religion.  You're surrounded by people like this in the church, and you slowly start to go crazy.  I can imagine this situation has occurred countless times.


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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 02:59:00 PM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

Please first explain, what is God? Be specific, show your work. Once you have established what God is, we can reply. I will not argue with you about what God is, but I cannot answer your question based on thousands of years of beliefs from billions of people as to the existence of something that has no agreed upon definition.

I am asking if there is a creator and ruler of the universe.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 03:02:07 PM »
Yes, Jst, but you are asked to be a bit more specific on this one. Loose terms like creator and ruler and vague. What exactly are they?

Of course the ruler of the universe could be on a planet around the star Colon for all I know.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 03:02:54 PM »
Does God exist?  Please explain.

Nope.  Reality does not appear to include an entity with the characteristics generally attributed to the entity that carries the label of the arrangement of letters 'g-o-d'.

Counter-questions:
Before you were born, did you exist?  In the time period between your death and subsequent resurrection, do you exist?  In the time period between Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection, did Jesus exist?

I do not believe so.  That's for all three.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 03:04:47 PM »
Yes, Jst, but you are asked to be a bit more specific on this one. Loose terms like creator and ruler and vague. What exactly are they?

Of course the ruler of the universe could be on a planet around the star Colon for all I know.

I wonder if Jesus visited that planet too?  Or are we the only planet in the entire universe with a species capable of comprehending Jesus, so he only had to come here?

Are humans the only species that can go to heaven or hell?  Are we the only ones that have to concern ourselves with just going ahead, taking on Pascal's Wager as a form of insurance and having this faith?  The only ones in a universe that could contain as many as 1 (followed by 24 zeroes) planets?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 03:07:16 PM by YouCantHandleTheTruth »

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2017, 03:05:08 PM »
Yes, Jst, but you are asked to be a bit more specific on this one. Loose terms like creator and ruler and vague. What exactly are they?

Of course the ruler of the universe could be on a planet around the star Colon for all I know.

Okay then one whose will invariably becomes reality.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: What's you're answer?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 03:09:04 PM »
Yes, Jst, but you are asked to be a bit more specific on this one. Loose terms like creator and ruler and vague. What exactly are they?

Of course the ruler of the universe could be on a planet around the star Colon for all I know.

Okay then one whose will invariably becomes reality.

Sounds  a good description of the laws of physics which rule everything in the universe.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)