Author Topic: Human Genome 'Degrading'  (Read 288 times)

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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Human Genome 'Degrading'
« on: March 19, 2017, 09:22:41 AM »
I have a creationist banging on about 'the human genome degrading'. From what I understand, many of the random DNA changes that happen in a population may negatively affect an organism. Ones that are too severe end up killing the organism, thus removing them from the gene pool.

Can anybody add to this?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 10:28:54 AM »
What is he saying, specifically?
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
This was in response to a post about Adam and Eve's children populating the world. Go easy on him for his spelling, he's word blind.

These aren't all the posts, I'm only posting a selection to give a flavour.

Post 1;
"If your genome was next to prefect as Adams was then there is no problem with brothers and sisters having kids. It was only post flood after a genetic bottle neck that a no incest rule was applied to slow down,but not stop genetic entropy."

Post 2;
"Genetic entropy is real, we observe it happening. It follows the know law of ALL things that are complex HAVE to become less complex unless something adds to it. The only logical conclusion of this is a some point in history all genomes were perfect just as the Bible tells us that God made all things good. If something is damaged it's not good. Therfore all thing were made perfect. Funny how observable science fits the Bible. How did the writers know all this?"

Post 3;
"Does entropy exist? Yes it's a law. Will a genome be subject to entropy? Yes it's a law. How could a genome brake free from entropy? Only if new information was added to it to replace the damaged parts. How is new information written? By a writer. It doesn't matter where or who writes the science paper, if it's true it's true. All your last post shows is your prejudices and your blind commitment to your world view."

Post 4;
"It's not the big bad mutations thats the problem. As you rightly say they take themselves out of the gene pool. It's the little ones. These only have a very small unselectable influence. Natural selection can not detected or select them out of the pool. Once you have too many small mutations the UK organism becomes less and less fit eventually leading to extinction. This is why we need a large gene pool to stop endangered species becoming extinct."
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 11:50:33 AM »
Broadly, I can sum up his argument as; Random changes to DNA are on the whole detrimental to an organism within a population. Therefore, through breeding, the entire population will die.
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Online velkyn

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 12:09:17 PM »
he starts with nonsense, that "Adam" had a perfect genome.  This is a meaningless claim.  You might also want to ask this TrueChristian exactly why did this god keep screwing with humanity by making their genome les and less "perfect" intentionally? 

Random changes are not always detrimental, and in some cases are detrimental in one environment, and not in another.  One example is a genetic glitch I have in my family, alpha one anti-trypsin deficiency.  It's also called genetic emphysema.  Two of my uncles died of it, and an aunt is only alive because of modern medicine.  It has been discovered that this glitch helps one not be infested by parasites, worms in particular.  https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160204085109.htm
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 02:16:46 PM »
"Perfect genome" is, as velkyn points out, meaningless.  Perfectly what?  Adhering to what perfect model, or function?

If animals also had "perfect" genomes, then that means that there were multiple possible models of genome "perfection".

This is an example of someone using language that seems meaningful to them, but that surely, when pressed, will not have the foggiest clue what they were talking about.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2017, 03:16:06 PM »
"Perfect genome" is, as velkyn points out, meaningless.  Perfectly what?  Adhering to what perfect model, or function?

If animals also had "perfect" genomes, then that means that there were multiple possible models of genome "perfection".

This is an example of someone using language that seems meaningful to them, but that surely, when pressed, will not have the foggiest clue what they were talking about.

I've wondered that too, in a way—I was having a discussion with a Christian friend on "Why couldn't we have been created with our eating and breathing tubes (for lack of a better term atm) separate?  I wouldn't call our design perfect, as even disregarding that some animals have better attributes than humans.
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Online velkyn

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2017, 04:55:15 PM »
heh.  yep.  I'd design myself with titanium skin (whatever the latest carbon fiber at the joints) ,  joints of Teflon, nails of diamond, gills, oxygen concentrators, ape m,uscles etc and I could still better that.  I would have to admit that I would be happy to accept one of the android bodies in the ST:TOS "I, Mudd". 
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2017, 09:40:27 PM »
Okay, Dunning-Kreuger confirmed.  Not that I'd suggest telling him that.

He's probably referring to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the total entropy[1] of an isolated system will increase over time, or at best remain constant.  But Earth is not an isolated system; we get energy from the sun, for example, which constantly increases the amount of energy available to do work on Earth.

However, there is no such thing as "genetic entropy".  For all practical purposes, genomes don't even notice entropy.  By the same token, entropy has nothing to do with the amount of complexity in a system, only the amount of energy available to it.  It's true that limiting available energy limits complexity, due to not having anything available to do the work needed to build it - but by the same token, having too much energy also limits complexity.  It's kind of like trying to do something while someone is spraying a firehose at you.

In point of fact, genetic mutations usually happen due to high-energy particles (such as x-rays and gamma rays).  The best way to visualize their effect is like imagining a bullet hitting something - it's the sudden increase of energy that does the damage.  By comparison, the effects of entropy would only take effect over untold billions of years.

As for the rest of it, his idea that a "perfect genome" would have no problems with interbreeding displays an appalling ignorance of the realities of biology.  I don't care how 'perfect' someone's genome is (and what exactly is a "perfect genome", for that matter?), it can't ignore the effects of genetic drift, which would have pretty much ended the human race before it ever had a chance if it had started with only two humans.

I will say that he's more or less right about how most mutations have either a trivial effect or none at all, and thus natural selection takes no notice of them.  But that is no reason to assume that these small mutations represent any 'degradation' of the human genome, especially when the major premise of that assumption - that entropy reduces complexity - is demonstrably false.  Lack of energy preserves complexity - thus why we can preserve things by freezing them or encasing them in nitrogen gas, among other things.  Not to mention that eventually, even small mutations will add up to something that has a non-trivial effect, at which point natural selection will take notice of them.
 1. the energy in a system which is unavailable to do work
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Human Genome 'Degrading'
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 05:19:29 AM »
Okay, Dunni...................................................

.....................take notice of them.

I've copied and pasted your response to him in a message
If your god cannot physically appear before us, then it is imaginary.

It's as simple as that.