Author Topic: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC  (Read 13336 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #116 on: April 19, 2016, 11:55:41 AM »
What's with the modified "at least in Christian times?"

Because for a limited time he allowed the nation of Israel to carry out some of his judgements.  However, that is not the case before or after.

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And can you give an example in the world wherein an entity has established it's own authority and the world has generally considered that a good thing?  You know, ideally at least, governments don't reserve their authority.  The authority is granted to the government by the governed.

For one, he has authority over the earth because it is his creation.  However, he has not forced his rulership on the unwilling.  Subjects of his kingdom are volunteers.

In reference to Armageddon, it's not a case of forcing his rulership on anyone.  It's a case of going to war against enemies of his kingdom that seek to make war against it.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #117 on: April 19, 2016, 12:36:30 PM »
I didn't misrepresent anything.  I brought up God's kingdom because it's the only "Christian society" supported by God.  You guys will have a hard time understanding this because you only see Christianity as a religion.  Christ did not come to start a religion.  He came to be anointed as king for a kingdom, to teach about that kingdom, and to give his life as a ransom so that people may live in that kingdom forever.
Calling it a kingdom does not mean that it is not a religion.  In fact, it's just a callback to ancient times when the leaders of countries were seen as both kings and gods.  And there is not really much of a difference between a religious kingdom and a religious church.  About the only difference is scale, really - you still have the god at the top, with his human representatives ruling over the rest of humanity and doing things in the god's name.  In short, not much different than the world as it is, except for the claim that everything will be perfect when it rules over everything.

The problem, of course, is that this is still an essentially human organization.  Yeah, sure, the god is at the top (although I don't see how that differs from the way religious organizations are now), but it's the human followers who actually do everything, same as it is now.  And as I asked before, why does a god need an organization of humans to actually do things for him?  There's no point in having godlike power if you never actually do anything yourself, and it raises the question of whether you actually do have that power.  Like how the Wizard of Oz put on a good front to intimidate his subjects into never questioning him, but had to rely on travelers to deal with someone who was threatening his rule because he didn't actually have any power in the first place.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2016, 01:18:15 PM »
I mean, if you have a being with unlimited power, knowledge, and so on, then why would you ever even need an organized church to manage your followers?  Why not simply set up the equivalent of a mental mailing list so you could touch base with them whenever you needed, either by individual contacts or by a group message?  Especially since power tends to corrupt, church leaders being no exception to this rule, as evidenced by the various scandals when they're caught out.

You are still only viewing it as a religion.  But what we are talking about is a kingdom being set up to govern the world.  That requires people working together in an organized way.  This goes beyond worshiping God.  It includes making practical use of the world's resources, supplying housing, food, general education, solving problems, etc.

While God has handed down principles for moral living, his purpose is not to micromange our daily activities.  Look back to Adam and Eve.  They were given the privelege of taking care of the garden.  How they did this was left up to them.  Eventually they would have children that would share in this privilege.  As the work grows organization becomes essential.  Bringing God's purpose for an earthly paradise to a completion is the work that lies ahead for God's people.

The dead are also going to be resurrected during this time.  This too will require oranization to make sure their needs are met.  I imagine they will be given history lessons too.

Accomplishing this purpose is going to require a great deal of organization. 

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And that doesn't even touch on the other problem, which is what you do if those in authority start abusing it?  The typical answer from Christians tends to be to claim that their god would never do such a thing, which is a complete non-answer that completely misses the point.  This is a deity who had a third of the angels who followed him rebel, who vanishes for centuries, even millennia at a time, only to reappear suddenly in order to dish out his own massive brand of overkill.  The likelihood of him abusing his power over those weaker than him should at least be considered.

If God chooses to abuse his power there is noone that could stop him.  However, the fact that he has allowed rebellion indicates that is not his purpose.

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Human rulers can be overthrown if they get too full of themselves.  And given the fact that the original angelic rebellion is still going on, I'd say that the same applies to your god as well.

Do you know what ther rebellion is over?  In the least, it involves him wanting to rule humans.

The issue facing humans is not one of religion, but of rulership.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2016, 01:30:47 PM »
The problem, of course, is that this is still an essentially human organization.  Yeah, sure, the god is at the top (although I don't see how that differs from the way religious organizations are now), but it's the human followers who actually do everything, same as it is now.  And as I asked before, why does a god need an organization of humans to actually do things for him?  There's no point in having godlike power if you never actually do anything yourself, and it raises the question of whether you actually do have that power.  Like how the Wizard of Oz put on a good front to intimidate his subjects into never questioning him, but had to rely on travelers to deal with someone who was threatening his rule because he didn't actually have any power in the first place.

Not trying to split hair but it is worth pointing out that God has delegated the rulership of this kingdom to Christ and a limited number of "elect" Christians.

However, if how things were at the beginning is any indicator of the future then there will be more direct interaction than there is now.  Adam interacted directly with the angel of Jehovah. 

So too, if the life of Christ as a perfect human is any indicator of the capabilities of a perfect human then there will be more individual closeness to God as well as more access to the use of his power.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #120 on: April 19, 2016, 02:12:42 PM »
What's with the modified "at least in Christian times?"

Because for a limited time he allowed the nation of Israel to carry out some of his judgements.  However, that is not the case before or after.
Why?  Was god busy hanging out with other chosen peoples at the time?  Did god make a mistake in allowing them to carry out some of his judgments?

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For one, he has authority over the earth because it is his creation.  However, he has not forced his rulership on the unwilling.  Subjects of his kingdom are volunteers.
What is it about being the creator of something that gives one unquestionable authority over that creation?  Especially if that creation happens to be a sapient entity with a will of it's own?  A lot of theists, including you, seem to just assume that this creator-authority 'just exists'.  I question that.  What is it about being a creator that means that you can have authority over the thingie?

Or is this a 'might makes right' thing?

Do you know what a volunteer is?

How is this a volunteer organization when god, not the people who 'volunteered' for the organization, gives himself the authority to punish?  Especially the authority to punish those not in his organization?

Jstwebbrowsing...when did I opt in to god's kingdom?  When did I make that choice?

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In reference to Armageddon, it's not a case of forcing his rulership on anyone.  It's a case of going to war against enemies of his kingdom that seek to make war against it.
Would you say that 'not wanting to be part of a kingdom' would be the same as 'wanting to go to war against a kingdom'?

I do not want to be under the rule of the queen of England - does that imply I wish to go to war with the queen of England?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #121 on: April 19, 2016, 02:38:07 PM »
Not trying to split hair but it is worth pointing out that God has delegated the rulership of this kingdom to Christ and a limited number of "elect" Christians.
Other Christian sects disagree.  In fact, very few Christian sects agree with each other on much of anything, and they all insist that they have it right.  So I would question your certainty here.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
However, if how things were at the beginning is any indicator of the future then there will be more direct interaction than there is now.  Adam interacted directly with the angel of Jehovah.
This is kind of beside the point.  Why should a god (especially one who is omnipotent/omniscient/etc) rely on letting others interact for him, well, ever?  That's kind of like a guy with unlimited strength letting someone else lift weights instead of him.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
]So too, if the life of Christ as a perfect human is any indicator of the capabilities of a perfect human then there will be more individual closeness to God as well as more access to the use of his power.
I certainly wouldn't use him as an indicator of the capabilities of a perfect human, especially since other Christian sects disagree that he was ever really a human to begin with.  Most of them think of him as essentially an aspect of YHWH which temporarily took on human form - this is especially supported by the gospel of John.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #122 on: April 19, 2016, 03:33:43 PM »
Why should a god (especially one who is omnipotent/omniscient/etc) rely on letting others interact for him, well, ever?

Here is a different way to look at it, Jstwebbrowsing:
What reasons can you think of for why the Pharaohs had others build pyramids for them?  What reasons can you think of for why a Pharaoh would not just have built a pyramid himself?

And do any of those reasons apply to god?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2016, 04:24:05 PM »
I am finding it hard to see the difference between "a kingdom ruled by god" (with people doing all the work-- organizing, teaching, farming, building, transportation, communication, and so on) and an identical kingdom not ruled by god, with the people doing everything.

Say you have a "kingdom" run by rational atheists, like an even more advanced Sweden or something. Good health care, good education, good care of the environment. Almost no violent crime, few social problems, reasonable public policies. 

What is the purpose of god in this scenario? What would god do differently? How exactly would god make this new setup better than anything people could figure out by themselves? Add some worship time to the work week? Stop the people from celebrating the seasons?

Will people not make mistakes anymore, since god is in charge? Nobody will cut themselves with a sharp tool on the ginormous collective farm, or accidentally fall into the factory machinery? Or will they still screw up but god will swoop in and fix things?

As for god making contact more often, why would he ever be absent? Why is he absent now? Where is he? Visiting with his other creations on other planets in other universes?  :-\
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #124 on: April 19, 2016, 04:51:05 PM »
What would god do differently?

Demand credit for everything under the threat of denial of fabulous prizes.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Jag

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #125 on: April 19, 2016, 05:40:57 PM »
You are still only viewing it as a religion.  But what we are talking about is a kingdom being set up to govern the world.
Let's cut to the chase - explain the functional difference please.

Edit: to be more clear, this sounds like radical Islam. So why should anyone be backing you guys versus those other guys? BOTH of you apparently think you should be able to dictiate how everyone else lives in your ideal world.

So what's the functional difference between a religion that is spread to others by any means whatsoever, with the intention of converting others to these religious beliefs, and "a kingdom being set up to govern the world"?


« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 05:45:16 PM by Jag »
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #126 on: April 19, 2016, 07:31:02 PM »
^^^Exactly this. The main difference, as I see it, between ISIL and Armageddon is that with Armageddon, Jehovah will do all the beheadings himself.  :o
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2016, 12:35:55 PM »
And as I asked before, why does a god need an organization of humans to actually do things for him?  There's no point in having godlike power if you never actually do anything yourself, and it raises the question of whether you actually do have that power.

He doesn't.  And he has acted on his own, but sometimes he acts through his faithful followers.  He has done both.

For example, I mentioned the resurrection of the dead into his kingdom.  Humans aren't going to accomplish this on their own.  And the scriptures contain many examples of miracles by God.  These did not come about by the will of man.

 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2016, 01:24:29 PM »
You know, I could buy that logic if you were talking about humans.  I mean, even master craftsmen have other workers around to help lighten the load, not to mention eventually becoming craftsmen elsewhere, since even the best craftsman can only do so much on their own.  But we're not talking about anything like that.

We're talking about the equivalent of someone who will live forever and has unlimited strength, speed, and skill.  It isn't just that such a person doesn't need help, it's that the help of those who are so much less capable actually makes his own job harder.  There's a saying that the worst kind of assistants you can have are those who are enthusiastic but incompetent, because they won't just screw up, they'll screw up with vigor and make things all the worse for those who have to clean up after them.  Well, compared to the kinds of powers Christians attribute to your god, even the best and brightest human is a hopeless incompetent.

I know you believe that he'll make people more capable once this whole paradise thing is established, but why the wait?  You don't have to wait for circumstances to be perfect to start making improvements, after all.  In fact, your god has actually let things get so bad that humans have been working to fix some of the more egregious problems that we have, such as dealing with amputees, such as preventing a third of all children from dying before they turn five.  It never had to get to that point to begin with if what the Bible claims is at all accurate.  In fact, in fixing the things that your god has let go to pot, we've gained a lot of capabilities that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

So no, I wouldn't assume that humans are not going to be capable of things like resurrecting the dead, or the various 'miracles' your god supposedly performed.  I'm sure there's research into both going on somewhere in the world, and it's silly to claim that it's impossible simply because humans haven't done it yet.  So what's your god going to do once humans have figured out how to reproduce all of his miracles?  Pull another Flood out so that the survivors will worship him once again?

Oh, and don't try to blame 'sin' for your god's inaction, like many Christians do, because that's just an excuse for his inaction.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2016, 01:46:07 PM »
Why?  Was god busy hanging out with other chosen peoples at the time?  Did god make a mistake in allowing them to carry out some of his judgments?

I don't know why.  But at the same time, he was with them.  For example, the walls of Jericho didn't fall on their own.  Then there are other examples of God's direct judgment such as in Sodom or the flood.

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What is it about being the creator of something that gives one unquestionable authority over that creation?  Especially if that creation happens to be a sapient entity with a will of it's own?

Well one reason he exercises authority if for the preservation of his creation and/or his followers.

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How is this a volunteer organization when god, not the people who 'volunteered' for the organization, gives himself the authority to punish?  Especially the authority to punish those not in his organization?

Does a landlord not have the right to eject uruly tenants?  It is the same principle.

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Jstwebbrowsing...when did I opt in to god's kingdom?  When did I make that choice?

It does not appear that way.  But how long should those that do have to suffer because of those that don't?  This suffering goes back as early as Cain and Abel.  All human suffering is a result of rebellion against God's standards.  For how long should his followers continue to suffer because of the rebellion of others?

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Would you say that 'not wanting to be part of a kingdom' would be the same as 'wanting to go to war against a kingdom'?

No I wouldn't, but surely you don't apply this to yourself.  Choosing to try to cause the [eternal] death of others by trying to incite them to rebellion isn't exactly a neutral attitude.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2016, 02:07:37 PM »
Yeah, the walls of Jericho probably had boulders and other things flying at them which helped knock them down, which somehow didn't make their way into the narrative.  I can't imagine why that might be.

That's the problem with taking Bible stories as good coin.  It doesn't work on people who can spot the flaws in such stories - which, of course, is why the bible promotes people approaching their faith as if they were little children.  It wouldn't do to have believers thinking critically about all those ancient stories, after all.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2016, 02:36:12 PM »
No I wouldn't, but surely you don't apply this to yourself.  Choosing to try to cause the [eternal] death of others by trying to incite them to rebellion isn't exactly a neutral attitude.
In other words, if someone isn't for your god, they're necessarily against them.  Anyone who does not support your god's "kingdom on earth" is therefore an enemy who is at war with it, and deserves the punishment that your god will deliver to them, at least according to the reasoning you gave here.

I detest blatantly false dichotomies like this, especially when they're also obvious strawmen.  You see, people like jdawg don't actually believe your god exists to grant (or withhold) eternal life.  It would be different if your god was, you know, active in the world, in a way that was clearly evident.  But to declare people who don't believe in something that isn't evident to be rebels against it is a complete absurdity.  It would be like declaring that those who don't believe in the Norse pantheon are rebelling against the authority of those gods.

It's the same problem with comparing your god to a landlord.  If your god doesn't exist, how can he be a landlord of anything?  You have to be able to show that he exists first, and no Christian ever has.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2016, 02:54:00 PM »
How long should god allow his faithful followers to suffer? Very good question. What is your answer, Jst? 

Jst, you compared god killing bad people to a landlord kicking out bad tenants.[1] But god has not kicked out the bad tenants. He has let the bad tenants--some of whom he already knows will not ever change--stay for thousands of years. God could fix things at any time. But he sits and waits. For what? Like Santa, Jehovah knows who is naughty and nice already.

If god truly cared about his followers, he would not allow them to suffer at the hands of bad people at all.

In fact, he could very easily stop bad people--those who he knows in advance will be bad-- from ever being conceived. Almost overnight, nothing but good people exist. Without having to kill everyone except a handful of the faithful, or wait for things to get so awful that nobody can stand it, or for his few million followers to personally contact every single person on earth, or for Satan to rule and then not rule for a while and then rule again and then not rule anymore, or any of that endless malarkey.

Why creat Satan, your evil counterpart, knowing he will take over and run things into the ground? (Since so many things are getting better, Satan has turned out to be a failure at failure. ;D) Why even have an evil counterpart-- is this the DC universe or a James Bond movie or a video game or something? Satan's purpose is a big fat comic book plot hole in the scenario.

What is the point of the complicated, strangely drawn-out process for god to someday, gradually, when he gets around to it, eventually, after lots of death and horribleness, make things good?

The JW's spend their time and mental energy continuously re-interpreting the bible, jumping to conclusions, and making artificial connections between dates and events that could mean almost anything.  Jehovah ends up looking like a human ruler who cannot act because he has all these restrictions, like a divided congress or budgetary limitations or a constitution or something. It starts to seem like there is no god behind the story at all. Just complicated, increasingly hollow excuses to account for why he does not do anything.

What is god doing? Why doesn't Jehovah just show up and make things good, if that is what he wants?
 1. I will ignore for the moment the horrible sci-fi concept that we humans are renting the earth from the ultimate absentee slum landlord who never makes any repairs or even shows up to have people sign the lease agreement. But who will suddenly evict people who did not even know they were supposed to pay rent or to whom, and who did not even know they did not own the building they lived in.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 03:04:02 PM by nogodsforme »
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2016, 03:04:37 PM »
Well, compared to the kinds of powers Christians attribute to your god, even the best and brightest human is a hopeless incompetent.

They are not incompetent in those things for which they were created to do.  For example, humans were created to be stewards over the earth.  Humans are quite capable of this.  The biggest barrier to human progress is other humans. 

Let's take a serious look at starvation.  Which of these things cause starvation today?

1.  The earth cannot produce enough food
2.  People are unwilling to feed themselves
3.  People cannot afford enough food
4.  Other

Working to fix problems that you cause or that never should have started is not progress.

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In fact, your god has actually let things get so bad that humans have been working to fix some of the more egregious problems that we have, such as dealing with amputees, such as preventing a third of all children from dying before they turn five.

Again, you're dealing with problems that should never have started.  And these things still exist.  You're talking about making progress but many problems should be completely solved by now.  There should not be any children dying from preventable causes.  There should not be any limbless people.  There should not be any starvation.  These things continue to exist only because of humans and the systems they put in place. 

In many ways modern man is more guilty than it's predecessors because man actually possesses the means to solve many problems, but don't.

Take a look at global warming.  Some scientists are saying we are reaching the point of no return.  Some others say we've alreay passed that mark.  Man knows what should be done so why hasn't it been done?  Why is it still an issue? 

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In fact, in fixing the things that your god has let go to pot, we've gained a lot of capabilities that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

We've also gained a lot of capabilities that we wouldn't otherwise need.  All human problems are self-inflicted because of rebellion against God and against good sense.

So it's not that humans are incompetent.  Too many just lack the will.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2016, 04:00:20 PM »
They are not incompetent in those things for which they were created to do.  For example, humans were created to be stewards over the earth.  Humans are quite capable of this.  The biggest barrier to human progress is other humans.
Have you actually looked at how poorly humans actually manage the planet in general, Jst?  I'd wager not.  In fact, as a species, we're busy setting ourselves up for any number of global catastrophes.  And no, you don't get to say, "other humans are the biggest barrier to human progress", as if that were some sort of acceptable excuse, because that's actually not the case.  The actual biggest barrier to human progress has always been the fact that humans - not "other" humans, but all humans - are so shortsighted that we'll almost always pick the short term over the long term.  If humans were created to actually be stewards over the earth, as you claim, then us not having the ability to value the long term at least as much as the short term is a very serious design flaw, which points straight at the god you believe created us to be stewards over the earth.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Let's take a serious look at starvation.  Which of these things cause starvation today?

1.  The earth cannot produce enough food
2.  People are unwilling to feed themselves
3.  People cannot afford enough food
4.  Other

Working to fix problems that you cause or that never should have started is not progress.
Obviously, "other" is my choice, because two of the options you gave are ludicrously bad and the third misses the point.  But I have to ask, how does this example support your point that "the biggest barrier to human progress is other humans"?  I mean, the biggest reason we have starvation issues is because we don't plan ahead.  People go ahead and have kids - and in developing countries, usually lots of kids - who then all have to be fed.  But the same families which have the most kids are also the families least able to feed all those mouths.  That's true even in developed countries.  If we were better at long-term planning, we'd focus on making sure we had the resources to support a family before going ahead and starting it.  But that's never been true in any human society, including ones which were predominantly Christian.  People always go ahead and do things and then have to scramble to figure out how to cope with the consequences.  We don't even start to learn how to do otherwise until the risk-assessment portions of our brains are fully matured, and by that time, it's too late for most people to change because of how powerful habits are, assuming they haven't dug themselves into a hole with their prior actions.  So there's another design flaw for you.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Again, you're dealing with problems that should never have started.  And these things still exist.  You're talking about making progress but many problems should be completely solved by now.  There should not be any children dying from preventable causes.  There should not be any limbless people.  There should not be any starvation.  These things continue to exist only because of humans and the systems they put in place.
And do you know what the #1 reason why those problems still exist is?  Religion.

Whether we're talking about religious families which choose to pray to their god that the ailments of their children will be cured instead of utilizing medical care which could easily fix those ailments, or the pushback by religious people against things like stem cell research, or even groups like yours which withhold things like blood transfusions because their religion prohibits such things, or any of the numerous other situations where people refuse things like medical care due to their religious beliefs, it's easy to guess what's responsible.

The reason human progress has picked up so much over the past few hundred years is because people stopped relying on the authority of ancient stories and started actually testing things for themselves.  It never happened because of any religion - it happened because of people who were willing to set their religion aside (even if only in a professional capacity) in favor of actually trying to figure out why things happened.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
In many ways modern man is more guilty than it's predecessors because man actually possesses the means to solve many problems, but don't.
Which is due primarily to the short-sightedness of the human species, but it is also due to religious beliefs, usually very ancient religious beliefs, that most people are taught as children so that they will hold to them as adults.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Take a look at global warming.  Some scientists are saying we are reaching the point of no return.  Some others say we've alreay passed that mark.  Man knows what should be done so why hasn't it been done?  Why is it still an issue?
Because people in general are too short-sighted to care about problems that may or may not become an issue in the future.  We, as a species, are really good at focusing on trees while ignoring the forest.  By the way, who is it that you think is most resistant to the idea of climate change?  The biggest is people who have something to lose by making changes that would ameliorate it (even though they will lose much more in the long run if those changes are not made), and the second biggest are people who believe, for whatever reason, that we are not responsible for those things and thus should not take action to fix them.  That second group includes a lot of religious people who believe that if they don't fix those problems, their god will step in and fix them instead.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
We've also gained a lot of capabilities that we wouldn't otherwise need.  All human problems are self-inflicted because of rebellion against God and against good sense.
And this is where I point out that it is your own religion's teachings which state this, without providing evidence that it is true that all human problems are self-inflicted.  Now, it is true that many human problems are self-inflicted due to our short-sightedness and other related things, but many human problems are beyond our control.  In fact, much of the reason we've developed science and technology was to gain a measure of control over things that we would otherwise be helpless against.  Religion, too, is a response to our lack of control, but it's more of a placebo that helps us feel better about our lack of control by letting us believe in superbeing(s) who we can appeal to regarding the things we cannot control.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
So it's not that humans are incompetent.  Too many just lack the will.
However, I consider the lack of willpower or self-control to be examples of incompetence.  Competence, after all, is the ability to do things correctly, so things which prevent people from doing things correctly are going to be factors in their incompetence.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2016, 05:58:32 PM »
Who designed us with brains full of cognitive glitches? Who designed us so that we don't do long term planning well? Who designed us to produce children before we are mature enough to care for them? Who designed us to see patterns (supernatural forces) where there are none? Who designed us to set up our societies as if those made-up patterns were real, derailing real progress for thousands of years? Who designed us to behave irrationally and to ignore science most of the time?

It was either god or nature. I bet on nature, since nobody expects nature to be perfect. If we screw up more than we succeed, we were designed to screw up.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2016, 07:49:37 PM »
Yep.  Nature, which spawned the mindless alien 'god' that no human would ever have considered before we started actually looking for evidence.  And that many humans still cannot accept because it doesn't fit their preconceptions as to what a god should be.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/kr/an_alien_god/

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In a lot of ways, evolution is like unto theology.  "Gods are ontologically distinct from creatures," said Damien Broderick, "or they're not worth the paper they're written on."  And indeed, the Shaper of Life is not itself a creature.  Evolution is bodiless, like the Judeo-Christian deity.  Omnipresent in Nature, immanent in the fall of every leaf.  Vast as a planet's surface.  Billions of years old.  Itself unmade, arising naturally from the structure of physics.  Doesn't that all sound like something that might have been said about God?

And yet the Maker has no mind, as well as no body.  In some ways, its handiwork is incredibly poor design by human standards.  It is internally divided.  Most of all, it isn't nice.
Bolding is mine.

I do disagree a little bit.  Evolution may have made us, but it is no more a god than gravity is, or electromagnetism.  It is simply a natural part of the universe, like everything else in existence.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2016, 11:33:22 PM »
I have to amend my earlier statement about nature not being perfect. If we can redefine perfect in the extra-generous way Jst defines it for god and everything god has made, then nature is perfect. Perfect, in this sense, means "suitable for the purpose for which it was intended".[1]

Even using this really strange definition (expressly meant to separate godly perfection from any connection to things that are not very nice, like malaria, perfectly designed to kill babies in the tropics) god seems to have missed the mark completely with human beings.

We are perfectly designed to worship Jehovah and glorify his name, according to Jst. Yet, most of us do not even believe in him and all of us fail at glorifying his name adequately. Jst says it is because, although god's design is perfect, we just insist on screwing up, battling that perfect god's perfect design every step of the way. Seems a weird way to characterize the human condition, saying we are perfectly designed, when at the same time, saying that it is so very easy for us to slip up and to sin that we are in constant need of god's forgiveness. Shouldn't god have designed us all just a bit better, if he wanted us to behave better?  :-\

But anyway, getting back to nature (heh), its purpose is to have life reproduce itself. Life does not have to mean human beings. As long as there is anything alive, even if it is only cockroaches, naked mole rats, lichen, Keith Richards and the bubonic plague, well then nature is perfect.
 1. Perfect should not be assumed to mean "having no mistakes or flaws; completely correct or accurate" because that is just what the worldly, atheist-controlled dictionary says, and should be disregarded in favor of the definition the JW's prefer. Because reasons.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 11:41:00 PM by nogodsforme »
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #138 on: April 21, 2016, 03:01:50 PM »
Even if you hypothetically allow that the original design for humans was 'perfect'[1], it doesn't change the fact that the production of humans based on that design was anything but, starting with the fact that YHWH had to jury-rig the first female using a part from the male.  Then let's take into account the fact that the knowledge of good and evil was apparently extremely detrimental to the humans produced with YHWH's design, and yet, those same humans were extremely easy to fool into consuming said knowledge despite YHWH having told them that they would die as a result.  And furthermore, rather than attempting to jury-rig a correction like he did with the first female, his response was to curse them and drive them out.

Then we have the disagreement between Cain and Abel which was a direct result of YHWH indicating a preference between the two.  And furthermore, a preference which led YHWH to not only leave the first murderer alive, but to actually protect him against people who would otherwise seek to punish him for his deed.  It's little wonder that other humans got the wrong idea about what they should and shouldn't do, to the point where YHWH decided the best course of action was to simply kill everything off and start over.

I could go on and on and on, but I think this clearly demonstrates that however 'perfect' the design for humans might have been on paper, it was anything but 'perfect' in action.  In fact, I think it was its 'perfection' on paper that led it to go so horribly wrong.  Modern-day engineers know better than to try to make their designs perfect; instead, they seek to make them robust so that even if things go wrong, they can continue to function.  Which, notably, YHWH failed to do.  He even forgot that there would need to be female humans in order so that there could be more humans down the line.

Jst can make all the excuses he wants to for his god, and blame other humans for all the problems we face as much as he wants to, but it won't actually change the reality of the situation any more than a Trump sycophant blaming his detractors for the near-riots some of his rallies have provoked would.
 1. to distinguish from the more common definition of perfection
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #139 on: April 21, 2016, 03:50:02 PM »
The actual biggest barrier to human progress has always been the fact that humans - not "other" humans, but all humans - are so shortsighted that we'll almost always pick the short term over the long term.

No that's not true.  There are many humans that work toward the long term.  These are the ones that sound the alarms and try to get others to change.  These are the ones that protect endangered animals, educate us about the environment, show us the "have nots" of the world, and other similar things.

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If humans were created to actually be stewards over the earth, as you claim, then us not having the ability to value the long term at least as much as the short term is a very serious design flaw, which points straight at the god you believe created us to be stewards over the earth.

There are too many exceptions to your rule for it to be a design flaw.

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Obviously, "other" is my choice, because two of the options you gave are ludicrously bad and the third misses the point.

Yes, #1 is ludicrous.  However, it's the only acceptable reason.  If the earth produces enough food then there is no excuse for people starving.

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I mean, the biggest reason we have starvation issues is because we don't plan ahead.  People go ahead and have kids - and in developing countries, usually lots of kids - who then all have to be fed.

Nice way to blame the victims.  Don't you mean we have starvation because poor people don't plan ahead to not have offspring? 

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But the same families which have the most kids are also the families least able to feed all those mouths.  That's true even in developed countries.

Why are they least able to feed them?  If the earth produces enough food, then why are these people not able to feed their families?

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If we were better at long-term planning, we'd focus on making sure we had the resources to support a family before going ahead and starting it.

Why should anyone not be able to support their family?  What prevents them?

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And do you know what the #1 reason why those problems still exist is?  Religion.

Do you have some evidence to show that refusal of medical treatment is the number #1 reason people go without medical treatment?

How about if we were to compare the percentage of poor people that go without treatment versus the percentage of wealthy people that go without treatment?  Blaming religion because people can't get healthcare is ludicrous.  Let's face it, the people that suffer the most in this world are the poor.

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The reason human progress has picked up so much over the past few hundred years is because people stopped relying on the authority of ancient stories and started actually testing things for themselves.

People have always tested things for themselves.  It's part of human nature.  That is not a new invention.  We have ancient wonders of the world as proof that even ancient people tested things for themselves.  Setting aside religion had nothing to do with it.  I test things all the time without setting my religion aside.

Although let's not forget that progress has also made it possible to cause ever greater atrocities, like machine guns, WMDs, and killing the environment.  But progress is not the issue.  It's lack of access or the misuse of progress that's the issue.

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Which is due primarily to the short-sightedness of the human species, but it is also due to religious beliefs, usually very ancient religious beliefs, that most people are taught as children so that they will hold to them as adults.

It's ridiculous how you try to blame religion for everything.   But looking at historically atheist societies, those that have been atheist for a long time, doesn't support this conclusion.

It's also not that humans don't have forsight.   Most problems are forseen, at least in plenty of time to do something about it.  For example, global warming has been forseen.  Solutions are known.  The problem is not the lack of ability to forsee problems.

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Because people in general are too short-sighted to care about problems that may or may not become an issue in the future.  We, as a species, are really good at focusing on trees while ignoring the forest.

No, that is not true.  There are plenty of people that sound alarms about the future.  So the problem is not on the species level.

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By the way, who is it that you think is most resistant to the idea of climate change?  The biggest is people who have something to lose by making changes that would ameliorate it ?

Here you're finally getting to the bottom of things instead of trying to use religion as a scape goat.

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That second group includes a lot of religious people who believe that if they don't fix those problems, their god will step in and fix them instead.

But it didn't last very long.  Can you show me one person that thinks that they should do nothing because their god will fix it?  As often as some of use this type of argument, it's amazing I've never met such a person myself.  I've never once heard anyone say, "let's do nothing because God will fix it."  If you can show me one, it'll be the first.

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However, I consider the lack of willpower or self-control to be examples of incompetence.  Competence, after all, is the ability to do things correctly, so things which prevent people from doing things correctly are going to be factors in their incompetence.

Not everyone has a lack of willpower or self-control.  You need to stop painting all humans the same.  The person working multiple jobs to feed their family are not suffering because of a lack of willpower or self-control.  Something else causes them to come up short.  What?
 




 



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #140 on: April 21, 2016, 05:42:03 PM »
No that's not true.  There are many humans that work toward the long term.  These are the ones that sound the alarms and try to get others to change.  These are the ones that protect endangered animals, educate us about the environment, show us the "have nots" of the world, and other similar things.
No, they don't work towards the long term.  You see, when I'm talking about the long-term, I don't mean ten years in the future, or even a century.  I mean thousands of years.  There isn't a human alive, or who has ever lived, who is capable of foreseeing things that far in the future, or even a noticeable fraction of it.  We're horribly myopic when it comes to matters like that, Jst.  Once you get past a few decades, it all recedes into a featureless, meaningless blur.

I would estimate that the minimum amount of foresight needed to work towards the long term would be a millennium (and, frankly, that's probably low by several orders of magnitude; I'm not exempting myself from being bad with matters of time).  But the amount of processing power needed to do that still doesn't exist, even with as quickly as computer technology is developing.  It likely won't exist for several decades, and likely won't become feasible for some time after that.  So while I respect the people who try to work towards the long term, they simply can't see far enough in the future to even come close to ensuring that their efforts won't come to naught due to long-term factors that they weren't capable of foreseeing.  As a result, we swerve from crisis to crisis because we weren't capable of seeing the seeds of the next crisis in time to do much more than the equivalent of damage control.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
There are too many exceptions to your rule for it to be a design flaw.
I beg to differ.  When humans think "long-term", they think a few decades down the line.  That isn't even close to being truly long-term.  Sure, we can give lip service to longer periods of time than that, but we can't actually conceptualize it in a meaningful fashion.  For example, try to imagine a stack of a trillion dollar bills.  I'll bet you can't even estimate how high it will be without looking it up online, and even then, it'll just be a value of some kind to you.  Same goes with time.  Humans, who generally live less than a century, simply can't conceptualize long periods of time.  We aren't even good at maintaining our focus over short periods of time without outside, usually artificial, help.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Yes, #1 is ludicrous.  However, it's the only acceptable reason.  If the earth produces enough food then there is no excuse for people starving.
No, it isn't the "only acceptable reason".  It is the one reason you submitted which you are willing to accept, which is not the same thing.  For example, human shortsightedness is another reason, and it's certainly an acceptable one since it's a flaw in our makeup as a species.

Furthermore, you didn't even think it through carefully.  If our population continues to grow, eventually there will not be any way to grow enough food for all those people to survive.  There's your #1 reason...but it isn't so acceptable once you realize that the only way it can happen is if humans continue to shortsightedly reproduce at an unsustainable rate.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Nice way to blame the victims.  Don't you mean we have starvation because poor people don't plan ahead to not have offspring?
No, I don't mean that, and I'll thank you for leaving the strawmen out of your posts in the future.

Humans have been successful so far as a species because we produce replacement humans faster than we die off.  Artificial distinctions like "rich" and "poor", or "educated" and "ignorant", have no bearing on that.  The problem is, that evolutionary behavior is now working against us.  People in developed nations aren't any better at planning ahead than people in developing ones, you know - which is why most kids in developed nations have sex, usually repeatedly, as adolescents[1].

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Why are they least able to feed them?  If the earth produces enough food, then why are these people not able to feed their families?
Do you seriously think that the earth just produces food on its own?  That's a serious question, because a lot of people today don't really have any idea of how much work it takes to actually grow food.  Well, my father grew up on a somewhat traditional small American farm - 160 acres in the middle of Nebraska.  I visited there along with my brothers any number of times while I was growing up.  Among the things I learned is that small farmers are always busy working to grow food.  One of the reasons my grandparents could manage a farm that large without lots of manual labor is because of time-saving machines which didn't exist for most of human history.  And the work still ate up so much time that they seldom had the opportunity to go anywhere else, like for a vacation.

There's a reason for that.  In order to be successful, farmers have to not only make enough money off of their products to pay their living expenses, but they also have to make enough to pay for the maintenance and replacement of their farming equipment, any labor they hire, as well as making sure that they have enough seed to grow crops again the next year.  And when you add all of that up, it's not cheap.  For most of history, humans had to work - usually very hard, doing backbreaking labor that continued, day after day, for most of their lives - in order to grow food to eat.  And it didn't take much to cause a famine.  A few bad years without much rain and people literally starved to death, even the farmers who spent their lives wresting the food that everyone else ate and that civilization depended on from the ground.

That's going to have to be it for now.  I'll respond to the rest later on, but I have stuff I need to do this evening.
 1. this has been true historically as well - the offspring of rich people, especially the male offspring, generally had more sex than the offspring of poorer people, it's just that the richer ones, having more resources, were more able to avoid the consequences than the poorer ones
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #141 on: April 21, 2016, 10:13:14 PM »
^^^I would like to echo jaimehlers' last point.

The earth most certainly does not produce enough food for 7 billion people. Not by itself, anyway. Human beings have to work very hard to make the earth produce enough food for 7 billion people. The triumph is that most of the people on the planet are not starving. There is a much smaller percentage of starving people today than at any past era, in spite of the fact that there are more people now than at any point in human history.

If we had to rely on the earth to produce our food directly, ie we all had to hunt and gather our food, over 90% of us would indeed starve. Luckily we invented agriculture and machinery to produce food more efficiently. And we are going to have to get even more efficient, if we want the 3 billion more people who are going to be added to the global population in the next century to have enough to eat.

One other point is that people have a lot of kids when child mortality rates are high. When people know their kids are not going to die, they have fewer kids. Educate women and they are better able to keep their kids alive. That even holds for people in poor countries like Bangladesh. Reduce child mortality with clean water and vaccinations, get women and girls into school, get contraceptives into the women's hands, and fertility rates drop. Has happened everywhere it has been tried.

Need I say that the main barrier to babies getting vaccinated in both rich and poor countries, and to women getting access to education and family planning in both rich and poor countries.....is religion?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #142 on: April 21, 2016, 10:39:00 PM »
Several large corporations were named in the OP for boycotting, or threatening to boycott certain states over the bathroom issue.

Google, Apple, Citibank, Pfizer, Microsoft, Salesforce, Disney, Unilever and Coca-Cola.

I am suddenly curious about what the bathroom/locker room set ups look like in their various facilities.

Anybody know?
As a child, I used to cry for myself. Now, I cry for humanity.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #143 on: April 21, 2016, 11:48:47 PM »
When I hired a trans gender person a few years ago, we changed the bathrooms in my building to be unisex with door locks. Non problem solved. No major increase in immoral behavior has been documented. I don't even think the students have noticed the change. Sometimes the toilet seat is up when I go in and sometimes it is down. Who knows which way the trans person prefers. Maybe we should install a camera to see? &)

Many modern companies have probably done the same, making some rest rooms unisex with door locks. I have noticed airports and other public places have had "family" rest rooms for some time now. They come equipped with door locks. You can accompany a child, or an elderly relative or disabled person of any combination of gender. So that helps a lot more people besides the tiny minority who are trans gender.

There are actually entire countries where this is not nearly such a big deal as it appears to be here in the US. In some poor countries there is just one rest room in a place, and everyone takes turns using it. Does anyone know how they handle trans folks in Europe?

Between the obsession with gay military people looking at folks in the shower and the fear of trans high school students looking at folks in the toilet, it is a wonder we get anything done.  :-\
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Corporations bow to Gay Agenda in NC
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2016, 07:45:06 PM »
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2016/04/if-you-give-shit-where-someone-takes.html

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In consultation with the parents, the school in Virginia was totally cool with Gavin Grimm using the boy's room. He was getting hormone therapy, identified as male, and, really, fuck it, piss wherever you want. He "used this restroom without incident for about seven weeks. [Grimm]’s use of the boys’ restroom, however, excited the interest of others in the community, some of whom contacted the Gloucester County School Board (the Board) seeking to bar [Grimm] from continuing to use the boys’ restroom." Do you get it? The kids just didn't fucking care. But someone told a parent and then everything went batshit.
...
Putting aside the charming notion that every transgender person is automatically suspected to be a rapist in waiting, what's actually true is that the girls didn't want Grimm peeing in their bathroom because they saw him as he was: as a transgender male or, you know, a boy. And having a boy pissing in the girls' room made the girls uncomfortable. That ended up stigmatizing Grimm, causing him not to piss at school except when he could get to the single stall in the nurse's room, causing him to get multiple urinary tract infections.

The dumbfuckery involved in this whole dispute leads to this discussion of teenage genital exposure, in a concurring opinion by one of the judges: "Moreover, students’ unintentional exposure of their genitals to others using the restroom has already been largely, if not entirely, remedied by the alterations to the school’s restrooms already undertaken by the Board. To the extent that a student simply objects to using the restroom in the presence of a transgender student even where there is no possibility that either student’s genitals will be exposed, all students have access to the single-stall restrooms."

You got that? It's kind of a brilliant solution. If you have a problem pissing in a urinal with a transgender student present, that's on you, not the trans kid. So you go piss in the private john. But, frankly, if you're waving your dong around in the boy's room, you're probably the problem. And if you're checking out the dongs while they're pissing, well, you probably have some introspection you need to take care of that has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with your shortcomings.
...
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.