Author Topic: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity  (Read 14823 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2016, 12:56:51 AM »
Skep when you say god is this, that or the other thing do you realise you are talking here to predominantly atheists?

You realise atheists don't believe god is anything right?

So saying god is alpha omega or fried sausage is all equally meaningless.

How about you stop stating superstition as fact and start developing an actual argument. you have the advantage of god on your side, we just got reality.

So what is your definition of God?

If you want proof of God, how will you ever know you got proof if you don't even know what type of proof would prove God?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2016, 01:00:43 AM »


So, if Jesus killed eh! by car accident tomorrow, would that count as Jesus delivering for you, or letting you down? Or, would it be Jesus neutral?

Would this post be considered a "stupid post" that I should just skip and not reply to?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2016, 01:05:03 AM »
Banter with eh! on the internet is testing. What a sheltered smug idiot, this guy knows not hardship. What would Job think.

That was supposed to be a little joke. Then you call me sheltered, smug, and an idiot. Even the "moral high ground" atheists can't always be perfect.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2016, 01:11:10 AM »
I wonder if Skeptic can find a random sentence, unconnected with the main point of this beautifully concise post to respond to? Probably not. So he will probably respond to some other random sentence in another post instead.

Never underestimate a troll's stupidity.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2016, 02:09:03 AM »
What does it take to mean god does exist?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2016, 05:43:10 AM »
I wonder if Skeptic can find a random sentence, unconnected with the main point of this beautifully concise post to respond to? Probably not. So he will probably respond to some other random sentence in another post instead.


So, if Jesus killed eh! by car accident tomorrow, would that count as Jesus delivering for you, or letting you down? Or, would it be Jesus neutral?

Would this post be considered a "stupid post" that I should just skip and not reply to?

You can reply to stupid posts, if you don't ignore the intelligent ones.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2016, 05:44:39 AM »
That was supposed to be a little joke. Then you call me sheltered, smug, and an idiot. Even the "moral high ground" atheists can't always be perfect.

So, how are you doing, curing people of cancer today?
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2016, 06:04:39 AM »
You are absolutely right that not everyone wants to become drenched in sin. I guess I must painfully admit that you have made a decent point. But, this does not mean God does not exist.
It also does not mean that your god does exist.  You can't use human actions, good or bad, to determine whether a god exists or not.  That's why things like the Bible are ultimately not convincing of your god's existence, because they are the result of human actions.  Using the Bible to determine your god's existence is like using the guidebook to a manga to determine the existence of the characters within it.

It's a known flaw in human thought processes that if we have already drawn a conclusion about something, we will notice confirming evidence much more easily than disconfirming evidence.  This happens in more than just religion, skeptic, but it's religion where this tendency becomes most pronounced.  Look at all the religions that exist in the world, and how they give credit to their own particular gods for various beneficial things, while giving the blame for unwanted things to other entities.  And also consider how you, not being a believer in those religions, notice the problems with them much more easily than their own adherents.  And also notice how the believers in other religions are not convinced by what you consider to be religious truths, even though they're so obvious to you.

What do you think the conclusion of this is, skeptic?  I want to see what you come up with when reading this.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2016, 07:35:31 AM »
I'd also still like to know how you know that Jesus has never let you down, since you will always start from the belief that Jesus can never let you down, and derive your conclusion from that.

If you pray for something to happen and it does, you conclude that Jesus has delivered. However, if it doesn't happen, then Jesus would be giving you some other information, if only you listen harder, until you eventually find some reason that Jesus has done something else. If you admit that nothing happened, then you will conclude that Jesus is giving you tough love, which is terribly necessary for your spiritual development.

Why is it that Jesus can't deliver any decent forum answers to you?

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2016, 11:16:48 AM »

So, no, most people do not reject Christianity, knowing it is true, but wanting to have an easy sinful life. They reject it because it does not "click" with them. They do not think it makes sense.

You found that it made sense, but you cannot explain why. Maybe you should ask god to help you explain it to us. Isn't this the most important thing you could possibly do?

You are absolutely right that not everyone wants to become drenched in sin. I guess I must painfully admit that you have made a decent point. But, this does not mean God does not exist.

Okay, we may be making some progress here. My post was not about the existence of god. It was about why people decide not to become Christians, after learning about it. You stated that people reject Christianity although it does "click" as true because they want to keep on with their sinful lifestyles. I pointed out that very few people reject Christianity and become atheists.

They do accept the existence of god(s). Just not the Christian one. And I asked you to consider why that might be. You did not address that part. Why do most people not accept Christianity as true? And why does the Christian god not bother to convince most people?

Especially when people who have rejected Christianity then turn around and adopt religions like Islam that are even more strict and controlling. People do not become Muslims because of the free and easy life drenched in sin that it offers! They become Muslims because they want the exact opposite, a life that has rigid rules and guidelines so they are less likely to stray off the righteous path into sin. I would think that you would find that commendable.

I like it that there are so many people who want to live decent lives. I want to live a decent life, too. I just don't think you need a supernatural being telling you what a decent life entails. And, since most people of every religion and no religion manage to live decently, caring for others, being nice, obeying the rules of their society (for example, not killing, enslaving, raping or robbing their neighbors even when their religion says it would be okay to do so) it suggests to me that nobody needs to believe in any particular supernatural being to be a good person.

You, skeptic, do not have to make the next step,and decide that there are no supernatural beings at all. But the way the world looks certainly suggests that to me.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2016, 11:18:29 AM »
Skep when you say god is this, that or the other thing do you realise you are talking here to predominantly atheists?

You realise atheists don't believe god is anything right?

So saying god is alpha omega or fried sausage is all equally meaningless.

How about you stop stating superstition as fact and start developing an actual argument. you have the advantage of god on your side, we just got reality.

So what is your definition of God?

If you want proof of God, how will you ever know you got proof if you don't even know what type of proof would prove God?

How can I define something that does not exist, and that people have made up? What is your definition of a slartibartfast metaparticle?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2016, 02:35:42 PM »

You are absolutely right that not everyone wants to become drenched in sin.
What a strange thing to say: "drenched in sin. " What a quaint phrase.

Can you think of a few people - or anyone at all - who "wants to become drenched in sin."?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2016, 03:28:05 PM »
I still cant even get a christian to tell me what sin is. "Missing yhr mark" you might say, but how can you be drenched in missing the mark? Even figuratively?

Just sounds like more of the "say as much nonsense as you can so noone can reasonably call you on all of it" tactic that has made me consider christians the most dishonest group on the planet. Worse than the GOP.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2016, 03:51:28 PM »
So what is your definition of God?
A god is something that apparently may defy the physical laws of the universe at will and, as a consequence, nothing more than the object of the god's action suffers.

Unfortunately, the apparent ability  to defy the physical laws of the universe at will is also the definition of "magic".

Should you ever meet a god, ask Him/Her/It to explain how He/She/It does this "magic". Once the god explains, it is no longer a god, is it?

Quote
If you want proof of God, how will you ever know you got proof if you don't even know what type of proof would prove God?
But I do know what proof I need... but as soon as He/She/It tells me the answer, it is no longer a god.

We now see that gods cannot exist, because all they do is "do things we cannot explain." Once we have an explanation, there are no gods.

OK, Skep, what do you think?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline eh!

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #130 on: March 22, 2016, 03:56:54 PM »
Definition of god;

Greatest possible being?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #131 on: March 22, 2016, 07:05:10 PM »
I cannot define god but I can say what people who believe in god(s) tell me. It goes something like this:

A being that created everything that exists, even, presumably, itself. All powerful. All knowing. All loving. Everywhere at once, yet outside of space and time. But invisible and undetectable to any scientific instrument. Except to those it chooses to communicate with, like serial killers, prophets, lunatics, republican politicians and televangelists.[1]

It appears to these specially selected people in the form of dreams, visions, disembodied voices. In some cultures it appears as a many armed elephant headed person with a swastika on one of the many hands. In others it is a giant serpent covered in feathers, or a beautiful mermaid with flowing hair. In some cultures, it is a Jewish rabbi from Palestine. But people cannot all agree on which it is because it leaves nothing you can document, like record the voice, or take a photo of.

It sometimes does magical miracles, or at least it used to do lots of them. Now, not so much, either because, depending on who you ask, it only acts through humans these days, or because it does not want to be too obvious or people would believe in it too much and not have faith. Sometimes it writes in blood on walls, appears on a dog's a$$ or puts a face on a tortilla. But it never shows up in person at a White House press meeting, or the Parliament building or the Hadron supercollider or at the UN General Assembly. That is, it gets very shy around large groups of non-lunatics with cameras and other recording devices.

Why it was okay for it to appear and do things in front of multitudes of people in ancient times-- parting the sea, raising the dead, turning water into wine and so on, ruining everyone's faith-- is not clear. And by only acting through humans, it looks like it does not really exist at all. Which goes along with the not being too obvious thing.

I mean, if I loved people and wanted everyone in the world to know about me and worship me, I would definitely make myself invisible, hide, only communicate directly with charlatans, people in prison and lunatics, and never let anyone else know for certain that I existed. Then I would impose a really really harsh punishment on people who did not believe the stories told by lunatics and charlatans.

Because keeping people guessing, knowing that most will guess wrong, is the surest sign of divine love. :angel:
 1. That list may have some redundancies.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 08:07:57 PM by nogodsforme »
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2016, 01:43:56 AM »
So what is your definition of God?
A god is something that apparently may defy the physical laws of the universe at will and, as a consequence, nothing more than the object of the god's action suffers.

Unfortunately, the apparent ability  to defy the physical laws of the universe at will is also the definition of "magic".


It is certainly not magic. God did not have to learn how to be God. God always was God. It boggles my mind when I think about it, but there's no magic involved.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2016, 01:46:11 AM »

How can I define something that does not exist, and that people have made up? What is your definition of a slartibartfast metaparticle?

But you can't disbelieve in a slartibartfast metparticle if you don't even know what it is. The best you can say is, "I don't know."

That's the point.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline natlegend

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2016, 01:52:50 AM »
Skep how would you prove your non-belief in Santa?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2016, 01:54:58 AM »


Okay, we may be making some progress here. My post was not about the existence of god. It was about why people decide not to become Christians, after learning about it. You stated that people reject Christianity although it does "click" as true because they want to keep on with their sinful lifestyles. I pointed out that very few people reject Christianity and become atheists.

They do accept the existence of god(s). Just not the Christian one. And I asked you to consider why that might be. You did not address that part. Why do most people not accept Christianity as true? And why does the Christian god not bother to convince most people?

Especially when people who have rejected Christianity then turn around and adopt religions like Islam that are even more strict and controlling. People do not become Muslims because of the free and easy life drenched in sin that it offers! They become Muslims because they want the exact opposite, a life that has rigid rules and guidelines so they are less likely to stray off the righteous path into sin. I would think that you would find that commendable.

I like it that there are so many people who want to live decent lives. I want to live a decent life, too. I just don't think you need a supernatural being telling you what a decent life entails. And, since most people of every religion and no religion manage to live decently, caring for others, being nice, obeying the rules of their society (for example, not killing, enslaving, raping or robbing their neighbors even when their religion says it would be okay to do so) it suggests to me that nobody needs to believe in any particular supernatural being to be a good person.

You, skeptic, do not have to make the next step,and decide that there are no supernatural beings at all. But the way the world looks certainly suggests that to me.

OK, you are basically asking me why people convert to Islam instead of becoming drenched in sin. I have been thinking long and hard about this and I must say that I do not think I have a satisfactory answer. All I can tell you is that I believe fallen angels trick people into following Islam.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline eh!

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2016, 01:57:57 AM »
If god isn't magic WTF is he??

How do you know fallen angels haven't tricked you into following Jesus? The jooz do not believe Jesus is the messiah, god is their god.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2016, 02:00:29 AM »
Skep how would you prove your non-belief in Santa?

I can't. All you can do is take my word for it. You certainly can't verify it for yourself.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline natlegend

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2016, 02:08:01 AM »
Skep how would you prove your non-belief in Santa?

I can't. All you can do is take my word for it. You certainly can't verify it for yourself.

Why did you bring up that atheists can't prove their atheism?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2016, 02:55:20 AM »
I still cant even get a christian to tell me what sin is.
Because there aren't any genuine jebus' believers, just those that ' claim to be! '.

1 John 3:6 exposes them ALL as jebus' rejects & frauds!



 

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2016, 03:42:14 AM »
I would like to hear the apologetic on that?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2016, 05:41:33 AM »
OK, you are basically asking me why people convert to Islam instead of becoming drenched in sin. I have been thinking long and hard about this and I must say that I do not think I have a satisfactory answer. All I can tell you is that I believe fallen angels trick people into following Islam.

Process of incorrect elimination. Christianity is wrong, therefore something else must be right. Humans can't be so stupid as to make 5-6 incorrect religions, can they?

The flaw in your original statement is your binary thinking. You seem to think that people 100% believe, and make choices based on binary switching.

How does your statement work, if you admit that people may 20% believe?

Humans and other animals work like a "difference engine". I see this all the time in my pet wallabies. If you go up to one and pat them, they will put up with it. But if you pat one that suddenly looks at water, it will decide that it's an opportune time to move away and have a drink. The repellant force of the patting makes them believe that it's now time to combine moving away with having a drink.

You can end up with situations where people make a compromise between 30% belief and 70% sinning.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2016, 09:02:41 AM »
It is certainly not magic. God did not have to learn how to be God. God always was God. It boggles my mind when I think about it, but there's no magic involved.
The fact that it boggles your mind yet you're satisfied with it should be setting off an alarm bell in your head, because that's an indication that you're worshiping your own ignorance.  You don't actually know that this tautological statement is true, after all, so why are you assuming it to be true?  For example, perhaps "God" is a job that gets passed around, similarly to Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series.  In which case, each succeeding "God" would have to have learned how to do the job, as Graybeard indicated.

Can you show definitive proof that your god was always a god[1]?  If you can't, you can't assume that it's true.  You have to at least consider the likelihood that "God" is a job that gets passed down, similar to how President is a job that gets passed down.
 1. note, the Bible doesn't qualify as primary evidence because it's statements by humans about a particular god, rather than statements by the god
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline jtk73

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Re: Any Christians who would like to defend Christianity
« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2016, 04:28:05 PM »
All I can tell you is that I believe fallen angels trick people into following Islam.

WUT? So...fallen angels are more powerful than God? Because that is exactly what you are saying here. Either God is perfectly ok with these fallen angels trickery or he cannot do anything to stop it.

Ridiculous