Author Topic: Can this be explained?  (Read 1758 times)

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Offline Freezykow

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Can this be explained?
« on: December 10, 2008, 04:28:21 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Last March my father was diagnosed with lung cancer due to his life time of smoking. This was told to him by every doctor this side of the Mississippi. He told his family and we all began to pray for his safety. The Cancer began to spread into his lymph nodes and it wasn't long before he was told it was now stage three lung cancer. The doctors decided to preform surgery on my father and try to stop the cancer. The last thing he said before he went onto surgery was "Jesus I'm in your hands now." He awoke several hours later to a surprisingly cheerful room of doctors. It had turned out the spot on his lung had miraculously changed into something else the doctors did not know of(and this spot still remains but is shrinking) All traces of his Stage three cancer were gone without a trace. Doctors were laughing with him telling there friends to come into the room and rub his head for good luck because they had never seen such a thing. They told my Father he was the first happy story to ever come out of that room.

So I ask you can science explain this?

P.S. Be extremely careful to read the first couple of sentences before posting.  ;)
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Kitomi_Sensei

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 05:05:21 PM »
I am very happy for you and your father.

It is not uncommon for diagnoses to be made with all the tests that can be done short of invasive exploratory surgery, and then changed when the body cavity is opened for surgery.  Believe me, I was a med student when I got sick and am still sick.  I've been through so many diagnoses and un-diagnoses... my head is spinning.  So many things look like other things, and so many time they are SO SURE... and then...

another thing is... often when a doctor gives a terminal diagnosis, and not all stage 3 cases of lung cancer are terminal, I'd have to know A LOT more about the case, and even so, I'm not a doctor, and even if I'd finished school and all the training, I'm not an oncologist despite what I'm going through I'm no expert... sorry for the digression, anyway, when a doctor gives a terminal diagnosis and the patient prepares themselves for the very worst, hearing that it was wrong can be grounds for malpractice- (that may sound crazy- but many people prepare for death and they freak out when they hear that they are not dying after they have quit their job, sold their house, spent all their money, and divorced their wife), and using a person's faith to divert a malpractice suit into a miracle would not be unknown... however... giving these docs the benefit of the doubt... cancer and autoimmune disorders and other sorts of cystic disorders- (can you tell us more- or would you mind talking about this in private? ) are difficult to diagnose, and something very rare that looks like cancer will elicit a cancer diagnosis in almost every case.  Its rare, but there are many well-documented cases of these things happening.  I'm so glad to hear your dad was one of them.  But still... I'd really need to see the charts in order to say for sure what I think of it.  I'm guessing there's more to it than you're saying or that you understand or know of.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 05:13:02 PM by Kitomi_Sensei »
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Offline Omen

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 05:07:07 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Then there is no discussion to be had with you; you cannot expect to make ridiculous and sweeping conclusions based on an absolute lack of any information and logic without the necessity of being charged with intellectual irresponsibility.  It becomes pointless to even answer your question, much less even begin to take you seriously.

Why even bother to have a conversation where you preclude one to ever begin?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 05:09:29 PM by Omen »
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Offline JTFC

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 06:02:48 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

{snip}

So I ask you can science explain this?

Well, to avoid all possibilities of argument, I will just say yes, science can explain this.
"...if you are not like everybody else, then you are abnormal, if you are abnormal , then you are sick. These three categories, not being like everybody else, not being normal and being sick are in fact very different but have been reduced to the same thing."  Michel Foucault

Offline Irish

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 06:50:00 PM »
Some people are just genetically predisposed to various medical ailments and diseases.  Some people are just naturally able to fight off disease.  I'm not saying your grandpa has some advanced way of fighting off cancer but there are numerous cases where confirmed cancerous cells just go into remission.  Why?  I don't really know... it just happens.

So can science explain this?  Yes, science can.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:55:46 PM by Irish »
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Count Iblis

Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 10:54:09 PM »
The Flying Spaghetti Monster cured his cancer.
Religion is an act of sedition against reason.--P.Z. Myers

To find out more about the Evil Atheist Conspiracy visit http://www.atheistthinktank.net/

you know, hell is going to be so jammed full of lying Christians that I fear I will never get in.  --velkyn

Offline bahramthered

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 10:43:54 AM »
Some people are just genetically predisposed to various medical ailments and diseases.  Some people are just naturally able to fight off disease.  I'm not saying your grandpa has some advanced way of fighting off cancer but there are numerous cases where confirmed cancerous cells just go into remission.  Why?  I don't really know... it just happens.

So can science explain this?  Yes, science can.

That's the real point here. Sceince dosn't know "Yet." Will sceince accept it as a miracle and move on? No.

Offline Freezykow

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 10:55:42 AM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Then there is no discussion to be had with you; you cannot expect to make ridiculous and sweeping conclusions based on an absolute lack of any information and logic without the necessity of being charged with intellectual irresponsibility.  It becomes pointless to even answer your question, much less even begin to take you seriously.

Why even bother to have a conversation where you preclude one to ever begin?

It's the short gist of the information about it I have. The man above your post seemed to answer my questions quite nicely because he new something about the subject. So if you have no idea what is being talked about than I don't want you to talk about it. You have been somewhat spoken for already anyways. The gentleman above you seems to speak for people like you. People who shouldn't necessarily speak.
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Freezykow

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 10:57:43 AM »
Some people are just genetically predisposed to various medical ailments and diseases.  Some people are just naturally able to fight off disease.  I'm not saying your grandpa has some advanced way of fighting off cancer but there are numerous cases where confirmed cancerous cells just go into remission.  Why?  I don't really know... it just happens.

So can science explain this?  Yes, science can.

To be clear this is not a question to start an argument.

What did the spot on his lung turn into? No doctor we have seen can give us an answer.
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Irish

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 11:08:47 AM »
Some people are just genetically predisposed to various medical ailments and diseases.  Some people are just naturally able to fight off disease.  I'm not saying your grandpa has some advanced way of fighting off cancer but there are numerous cases where confirmed cancerous cells just go into remission.  Why?  I don't really know... it just happens.

So can science explain this?  Yes, science can.

To be clear this is not a question to start an argument.

What did the spot on his lung turn into? No doctor we have seen can give us an answer.

Well if the doctors truly were perplexed at the "new" spot on his lungs all I can say is...so.  So what if the doctors couldn't recognize the spot right then and there on the x-ray, MRI, or in surgery (however they saw the spot).  Doctors routinely perform lab tests on tissue samples to find out what they are because you can hardly ever diagnose something just by a first glance. Just because a doctor can't recognize the tissue right away doesn't mean it's some newly evolved or formed piece of tissue completely alien to humans.

An example:  I had a small growth on my tongue... it looked just like a taste bud... only slightly larger.  I went to an ear-nose-throat doctor and she had no idea what it was.  She just removed it and that was that.  She had no clue what it was but it didn't really matter.  She sent it off to the lab to make sure it wasn't cancer, it wasn't, and that was that.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 11:32:12 AM »
Hi Freezykow,

I just wanted to say that we all have power from our thoughts.  I really believe that we have power in thought and positive thought does work.

I don't know that much about the body but I feel we all have healing powers in our minds and can heal ourselves somewhat.

I don't feel this is a miracle but a way the power of thought can work.  Or it could have been what this disease was going to do anyway.

I think it is more fantastic to think that we have the power for this kind of thing rather than say Jesus did it.

Please read some other books that might help in this matter of Jesus and how it is possible that he could exist.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
Greta Christina

Offline Freezykow

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 04:26:51 PM »
Well if the doctors truly were perplexed at the "new" spot on his lungs all I can say is...so.

Like I said at the beginning I'm not looking to prove Science wrong. I'm not looking for an argument and I'm not try to convince you this is a miracle. It's not a new spot but the old cancer spot turned into something else.

  So what if the doctors couldn't recognize the spot right then and there on the x-ray, MRI, or in surgery (however they saw the spot).  Doctors routinely perform lab tests on tissue samples to find out what they are because you can hardly ever diagnose something just by a first glance.

What do you think they did?

Just because a doctor can't recognize the tissue right away doesn't mean it's some newly evolved or formed piece of tissue completely alien to humans.



They have done tests they just don't know what it is.

An example:  I had a small growth on my tongue... it looked just like a taste bud... only slightly larger.  I went to an ear-nose-throat doctor and she had no idea what it was.  She just removed it and that was that.  She had no clue what it was but it didn't really matter.  She sent it off to the lab to make sure it wasn't cancer, it wasn't, and that was that.


Two things

1. You completely removed the severity of the situation with this analogy. I'm glad you don't have cancer but my father did so when it miraculously changed it was a big deal.

2. They did examine it and still don't know what it is through lab tests. All they know is that it's shrinking.
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline JTFC

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 04:53:06 PM »
They did examine it and still don't know what it is through lab tests. All they know is that it's shrinking.

Okay, even though you didn't want details, what is probably going on here is the same thing that caused the cancer in the first place, i.e. a change in DNA in the cancerous cells.  Originally, this person had that change through smoking, a common cause.  Through either his own body, or medication, or a combination of the two, or perhaps even some external environmental change, the DNA of the cancerous cells has changed again, and instead of rampant growth found in regular cancer cells, these are receding.  Note that the medication doesn't even have to necessarily be a specific cancer drug.  It could be that, in this individual, his immune system reacts slightly differently to an increase in ibuprofen to create an enzyme that normally dissipates over time, but when it comes into contact with cancerous cells, it reacts in an entirely different manner.

What is needed here is a detailed chemical analysis of the cancerous cells, both before and after this change.  Examine just what changed, and make a detailed analysis of all medications, environmental changes, etc.  Maybe an increase in xylene exposure has resulted in a mutated protein strand that then modified how the cells reproduce.  Or maybe it was a decrease.  A switch from regular to menthol.  The point is, there are a great many possibilities here, all of them provable by science, and without the detailed information we won't know, and the doctors won't know.  Cancer regressions like this are valuable sources of information, though, as they can give us insight on how cancer works and how it regresses.  If we simply wrote these off as 'miracles' we would never know how to stop future cancers, or even cure it.
"...if you are not like everybody else, then you are abnormal, if you are abnormal , then you are sick. These three categories, not being like everybody else, not being normal and being sick are in fact very different but have been reduced to the same thing."  Michel Foucault

Offline Omen

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 06:58:30 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Then there is no discussion to be had with you; you cannot expect to make ridiculous and sweeping conclusions based on an absolute lack of any information and logic without the necessity of being charged with intellectual irresponsibility.  It becomes pointless to even answer your question, much less even begin to take you seriously.

Why even bother to have a conversation where you preclude one to ever begin?

It's the short gist of the information about it I have. The man above your post seemed to answer my questions quite nicely because he new something about the subject. So if you have no idea what is being talked about than I don't want you to talk about it. You have been somewhat spoken for already anyways. The gentleman above you seems to speak for people like you. People who shouldn't necessarily speak.

You did not answer my question and you even went so far as to offer insult where I make a reasonable inquiry into the intent of your original question.

You see, the problem is not providing you an answer because an answer is easily given.  The problem is that your question contains ridiculous presumptions about reality that we do not even have to entertain.  It begs the question of why you are even posing this question to atheist.  It is obvious that you think it is a miracle, as in delivered by divine being of your choosing, but the manner in which you arrive to this conclusion is necessarily fallacious.  Not to mention that before you can even pose this ridiculous presumptuous question, you immediately dismiss any statement in any kind that could possibly challenge you on your premises.  So how can I even begin to answer your question, when you truly do not want to know the answer and clearly are not open to anything beyond your initial conclusion? ( since you dismiss any argument )

This brings me to my next point: Intellectual irresponsibility.  You carry a series of false premises that are dependent upon a lack of evidence, there is also the potential of a future false dichotomy.  Your question, necessarily, uses these elements as if they were true when they are not.  The first individual answered you entirely within those limitations, with an answer that can only extend out to the limits of the information available.  His conclusion is an unknown, until he knows more.  This is an intellectually responsible response, it admits readily the ignorance of the unknown based on the unknown.  Your response was to ignore him and do the complete opposite in making a claim to know based on the unknown.

You did respond to Irish, but what was your response? You simply repeated the same question, that carries all of the same fallacies and false premises as the above.  It still begs the question of what your intent is with the question and what conclusions you are making based on the original information.  Irish was poorely treated by you.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 07:04:21 PM by Omen »
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 07:14:51 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Then there is no discussion to be had with you; you cannot expect to make ridiculous and sweeping conclusions based on an absolute lack of any information and logic without the necessity of being charged with intellectual irresponsibility.  It becomes pointless to even answer your question, much less even begin to take you seriously.

Why even bother to have a conversation where you preclude one to ever begin?

It's the short gist of the information about it I have. The man above your post seemed to answer my questions quite nicely because he new something about the subject. So if you have no idea what is being talked about than I don't want you to talk about it. You have been somewhat spoken for already anyways. The gentleman above you seems to speak for people like you. People who shouldn't necessarily speak.

You did not answer my question and you even went so far as to offer insult where I make a reasonable inquiry into the intent of your original question.

You see, the problem is not providing you an answer because an answer is easily given.  The problem is that your question contains ridiculous presumptions about reality that we do not even have to entertain.  It begs the question of why you are even posing this question to atheist.  It is obvious that you think it is a miracle, as in delivered by divine being of your choosing, but the manner in which you arrive to this conclusion is necessarily fallacious.  Not to mention that before you can even pose this ridiculous presumptuous question, you immediately dismiss any statement in any kind that could possibly challenge you on your premises.  So how can I even begin to answer your question, when you truly do not want to know the answer and clearly are not open to anything beyond your initial conclusion? ( since you dismiss any argument )

This brings me to my next point: Intellectual irresponsibility.  You carry a series of false premises that are dependent upon a lack of evidence, there is also the potential of a future false dichotomy.  Your question, necessarily, uses these elements as if they were true when they are not.  The first individual answered you entirely within those limitations, with an answer that can only extend out to the limits of the information available.  His conclusion is an unknown, until he knows more.  This is an intellectually responsible response, it admits readily the ignorance of the unknown based on the unknown.  Your response was to ignore him and do the complete opposite in making a claim to know based on the unknown.

You did respond to Irish, but what was your response? You simply repeated the same question, that carries all of the same fallacies and false premises as the above.  It still begs the question of what your intent is with the question and what conclusions you are making based on the original information.  Irish was poorely treated by you.



I'm not answering your questions because you are far to hostile for this thread. Just because you can't answer calmly doesn't mean no one else can. I guess what I'm trying to say is why answer a question when you are most likely guaranteed to get nothing relevant back?
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Omen

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 07:44:17 PM »
I'm not answering your questions because you are far to hostile for this thread.

I have not been hostile, nor have you bothered to identify where I have been hostile.  If you would so kindly, please identify which sentence in my original reply would be 'hostile'?

Quote
Just because you can't answer calmly doesn't mean no one else can.

Calm or the lack of calm has nothing to do with it.

I already pointed out that your question cannot be answered directly because it makes several serious false premises as part of the question itself.  I even identified that those individuals who bothered to answer in a way that appeals to this problem, you've either ignored or simply repeated your original question.  For your part it demonstrates an unwillingness to either demonstrate your base premises or even acknowledge that your question makes some serious fallacies.  I did this calmly and also addressed your responsibility in claiming to want an answer, but at the same time dismissing ALL responses beforehand by creating a situation where you can deem any response as arguing.

Quote
I guess what I'm trying to say is why answer a question when you are most likely guaranteed to get nothing relevant back?

You havn't identified any condition or treatment that would elicit that response.  On the otherhand, I have, you have purposefully asked a nonsensical question that carries a series of false premises then dismissed any reply by stating,'You're not looking to argue.'  This is what intellectual responsible replies do, they present a case or claim then provide reasoning/information/support for that claim.  So far, you have responded by saying I'm hostile without demonstration and describing my response as lacking calm.  Not once have you bothered to demonstrate that this claim is true, or base it on any relevant information.  Infact, you've ignored ALL responses avoiding any details that you do not wish to acknowledge.  You do not answer because the question undermines your intent and in doing that it displays a type of dishonesty where you havn't even come to the table with the intent to share respect with us.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 07:53:47 PM by Omen »
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 11:01:10 PM »


I have not been hostile, nor have you bothered to identify where I have been hostile.  If you would so kindly, please identify which sentence in my original reply would be 'hostile'?


Basically the whole post instead of even attempting to answer my question you attack how I worded it.

Calm or the lack of calm has nothing to do with it.


In this thread it has everything to do with it.

I already pointed out that your question cannot be answered directly

Why is it that every other single person in this thread can answer it but you can't.

For your part it demonstrates an unwillingness to either demonstrate your base premises or even acknowledge that your question makes some serious fallacies.

I still don't think anythings wrong with it. It was asked, it was thought about, it was answered. Whats so hard about that?

did this calmly and also addressed your responsibility in claiming to want an answer

I have been given some good answers so why should I care how my question is worded?

I will read your responses but this is turning into an argument so this is my last reply.
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 08:38:10 AM »
So I ask you can science explain this?

Is your contention that cancers never go into spontaneous remission?  That when you get cancer, it is inevitably a one-way journey?  "You've got cancer - you will definitely die"?

Fact is, many people are diagnosed with cancer.....and many people get better.  Some of them go on the operating table and say "Allah I'm in your hands now" or "Ganesh I'm in your hands now" or cross their fingers, or just hope - and sometimes the same thing happens to those people as happened to your dad.

Equally, some people get on the table, say "Jesus I'm in your hands now" and die on the table, or die soon after.

Sometimes people get better.  Sometimes they don't.  There is no significant imbalance in the percentages of Christians getting better over Muslims, or atheists over Hindus - nothing to show that one worldview "works" and the others do not.

It's a nice story - and I am glad your dad got better - but it means nothing.

 - - - - - - - - - -

To close, let me leave you with this.  My sister was a comitted Christian, as was her husband and both sets of parents.  Regular churchgoers.  She went into hospital to have twins - but there were complications.  She, her husband, the parents, the entire congregation, all prayed for her to live.

24 hours later she was dead.  She never even held her children.  They will grow up never knowing their mother.  She, too, effectively said "Jesus I'm in your hands now".

Sometimes people get better, and sometimes they don't.  That's all.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Omen

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 12:02:30 PM »


I have not been hostile, nor have you bothered to identify where I have been hostile.  If you would so kindly, please identify which sentence in my original reply would be 'hostile'?


Basically the whole post instead of even attempting to answer my question you attack how I worded it.

False, I did not attack how you worded it and your statement is a lie.  I specifically identified that you did not want to argue, yet at the same time wanted an answer to a question.  The question itself carries several ridiculous premises that need to be challenged so that you may better understand the answer.  Otherwise, you will simply repeat the same question ( as you have already done with Irish ).  You were simply asked to be responsible for your own premises that are part of your question.  How is asking you to be intellectually responsible hostile?  I must also ask you AGAIN specifically where in the original post did the hostility begin?

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Calm or the lack of calm has nothing to do with it.


In this thread it has everything to do with it.

Red herring, it has nothing to do with until you can demonstrate a lack of calm.  More importantly it has nothing to do with any of the points brought up.  One must also point out that you purposefully avoid and omit those responses you do not want to acknowledge.  You then respond by inquiring into exactly the answers you omitted.  Why do you do that?

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I already pointed out that your question cannot be answered directly

Why is it that every other single person in this thread can answer it but you can't.

I've already pointed out that you simply reworded your question to people who bother to answer.  Essentially that your question leads to nothing more then repetition of the same unnecessary problem.  You have purposefully omitted and removed that response, then inquired into what you have ignored as if it was not answered.

Quote
For your part it demonstrates an unwillingness to either demonstrate your base premises or even acknowledge that your question makes some serious fallacies.

I still don't think anythings wrong with it. It was asked, it was thought about, it was answered. Whats so hard about that?

Several posts identify problems in your question both directly and indirectly.  I choose to do so directly, others do so indirectly.  Unfortunately, the manner in which they do simply leads you to restating the same ridiculous question.  You have done nothing but avoid and omit those details that identify the problems in your initial questioning.  We cannot have a rational or decent discussion when you clearly have no intent to participate.

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did this calmly and also addressed your responsibility in claiming to want an answer

I have been given some good answers so why should I care how my question is worded?

You've ignored those answers, all of which point out the obvious that either science can explain it or that the answer is unknown.  The one time you bothered to respond, you simply repeated your original question.

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I will read your responses but this is turning into an argument so this is my last reply.

Argumentation is the very substance of discussion, without it there is no communication or discussion.  You wish to avoid the responsibility of having made claims yet expect others to provide answers you dishonestly and ignorantly ignore.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 12:04:25 PM by Omen »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 01:52:00 PM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Last March my father was diagnosed with lung cancer due to his life time of smoking. This was told to him by every doctor this side of the Mississippi. He told his family and we all began to pray for his safety. The Cancer began to spread into his lymph nodes and it wasn't long before he was told it was now stage three lung cancer. The doctors decided to preform surgery on my father and try to stop the cancer. The last thing he said before he went onto surgery was "Jesus I'm in your hands now." He awoke several hours later to a surprisingly cheerful room of doctors. It had turned out the spot on his lung had miraculously changed into something else the doctors did not know of(and this spot still remains but is shrinking) All traces of his Stage three cancer were gone without a trace. Doctors were laughing with him telling there friends to come into the room and rub his head for good luck because they had never seen such a thing. They told my Father he was the first happy story to ever come out of that room.

So I ask you can science explain this?

P.S. Be extremely careful to read the first couple of sentences before posting.  ;)

I'm guessing your father had a biopsy to show that cancer existed in the lung and in the lymph nodes.  If not, a diagnosis of cancer seems to be in error without such information.  A friend who has had eye cancer just had the upper left quarter of her lung removed because of biopsy results (they take it out through your shoulder, which is so weird!) Did he have a biopsy (or two)?

First the cancer had spread to his lymph nodes and then it becomes just a spot on the lung.  Which is it?  Per the desciption of Stage 3 cancer, there should have been more things to look at than one spot. 

Quote
Stage III lung cancer means the cancer has spread to the lymph nodes in the middle of the chest away from the lungs. Treatment for stage III cancer involves a combination of chemotherapy and radiation and sometimes surgery. There are 2 types of stage III lung cancer:

Stage IIIA means the cancer is confined to the lung itself and the lymph nodes around the windpipe or in the mediastinum (place behind the chest bone and in front of the heart) on the  same side as the cancerous lung.

Stage IIIB involves a tumor of any size, that may involve the bronchus, trachea, esophagus, backbone, or the fluid in the space surrounding the lung and, most importantly, has spread to the lymph nodes near the collarbone on either side, and/or the lymph nodes within the lung, or mediastinal lymph nodes on the side that is opposite the cancerous lung. Therefore, your pretreatment work-up will focus on whether or not complete surgical removal of the tumor is possible or whether the cancer has already spread to the brain or bone. Whenever possible, your surgeon will try to remove the tumor(s). Sometimes chemotherapy or radiation is given first so that complete removal is more likely. If not, then you will most likely have radiation therapy with or without chemotherapy. http://www.lungcanceralliance.org/frankly/understanding/staging_lung_cancer.html

Now, my grandfather died about 3 years ago from lung cancer.  I'm sure he prayed.  Why didn't he get his wish?  Per your post, prayer=healing, no "wait" no "no", no "unrelated response".
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Offline 604ipe

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2008, 02:08:59 AM »
So I ask you can science explain this?

Is your contention that cancers never go into spontaneous remission?  That when you get cancer, it is inevitably a one-way journey?  "You've got cancer - you will definitely die"?

Fact is, many people are diagnosed with cancer.....and many people get better.  Some of them go on the operating table and say "Allah I'm in your hands now" or "Ganesh I'm in your hands now" or cross their fingers, or just hope - and sometimes the same thing happens to those people as happened to your dad.

Equally, some people get on the table, say "Jesus I'm in your hands now" and die on the table, or die soon after.

Sometimes people get better.  Sometimes they don't.  There is no significant imbalance in the percentages of Christians getting better over Muslims, or atheists over Hindus - nothing to show that one worldview "works" and the others do not.

It's a nice story - and I am glad your dad got better - but it means nothing.

 - - - - - - - - - -



Anfauglir has a point that I had to study as a student nurse at Ohio State University College of Nursing. We read two books about spontaneous healing because it really happens. Spontaneous healing happens to people of all races, ages, economic status, religious affiliation of no religion at all. At the time (1991) there was no explaination just some research and statistical analysis. The reason at the time was unknown and I doubt if a reason has been found----sometimes things just happen.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2008, 03:24:09 AM »
That I disagree with. Things don't just happen. They happen based on the pressures for and against them. Just because we don't understand them doesn't mean are random or magical.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2008, 01:31:05 PM »
If heaven is better than earth, why does the Christian god heal cancer?
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Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2008, 10:23:16 PM »
If heaven is better than earth, why does the Christian god heal cancer?

Christians think it makes them better than all the other podunk religions.  Even on this sight some don't want us to call christians a religion.

Gee sounds like a pride thing hmmm.
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whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
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Offline Buster Fixxitt

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2008, 12:55:21 AM »
That's the real point here. Sceince dosn't know "Yet." Will science accept it as a miracle and move on? No.

I might disagree with this bahramthered,  or rather I might clarify it.  Will 'science' call it a miracle? No.  Will the medical community? Sure.  After all, you're not going to pay to find out what the F it really is, right?  No medical insurer would ever pay for that. So, who's going to even bother to look into it?

"Eff that! It's a miracle, I mean you'll still have to pay for the surgery, and you should totally recommend me to your friends..."
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Offline JII

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 10:00:56 AM »
Before I tell the story I would like to make it perfectly clear I am not looking to argue with any of you. I just want to know if there is a answer to this question.

Last March my father was diagnosed with lung cancer due to his life time of smoking. This was told to him by every doctor this side of the Mississippi. He told his family and we all began to pray for his safety. The Cancer began to spread into his lymph nodes and it wasn't long before he was told it was now stage three lung cancer. The doctors decided to preform surgery on my father and try to stop the cancer. The last thing he said before he went onto surgery was "Jesus I'm in your hands now." He awoke several hours later to a surprisingly cheerful room of doctors. It had turned out the spot on his lung had miraculously changed into something else the doctors did not know of(and this spot still remains but is shrinking) All traces of his Stage three cancer were gone without a trace. Doctors were laughing with him telling there friends to come into the room and rub his head for good luck because they had never seen such a thing. They told my Father he was the first happy story to ever come out of that room.

So I ask you can science explain this?

P.S. Be extremely careful to read the first couple of sentences before posting.  ;)

Sounds to me like the Doctors' original prognoses were mistaken (it happens don't you know?), and that all their post-surgical celebrating and head rubbing, was a CYA maneuver.

Offline Pale Rider

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 10:25:31 AM »
Your story is one that definitely had a happy ending and I am glad your father is doing well. I have had two family members die from the very same thing. What ever happened to reverse the effects of the cancer was in no way divine in my opinion. A lot of times the body has a way of re inventing itself. It would appear that divinity in what ever form has a selective method of who dies and who does not.....I will not go any further with this at this point but I am glad it turned out well for you.

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 01:20:30 PM »
The Flying Spaghetti Monster cured his cancer.

That might be the most un-counterable statement here.  Bravo.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can this be explained?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 08:00:19 AM »
That I disagree with. Things don't just happen. They happen based on the pressures for and against them. Just because we don't understand them doesn't mean are random or magical.

To clarify, I didn't mention randomness in my post - just that sometimes things happen one way, sometimes another.  I agree that - ultimately - vanishingly small numbers of these "things" are random.  My point is that when you regularly have the same outcome happening to people who do "A" OR "B", and equally have different outcomes happening to people who all do "A", you cannot make any claim that "A" was the reason for one particular outcome, as the OP implies.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?