Author Topic: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'  (Read 6406 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #232 on: March 17, 2017, 06:00:44 AM »
Thing is when the press reports Trump tweets they provide the tweet.  You are not providing the tweet. 

I have asked you to twice now.  This makes three.

Trump would never say he communicated poorly or that he misunderstood the type of counseling being given or that he over reacted to the threat of climate change.  He thinks it's a hoax. 

The comparison is way off base.  In fact Trump can be heard saying women should go to jail who have abortions.

It's wrong in that aspect as well.  I am nothing like that fucking ass wipe.  I am a snowflake.   8)
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Online velkyn

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #233 on: March 17, 2017, 09:44:08 AM »
As Albeto pointed out, you act so much like Trump. That comparison may cause you some distress.  I suggest you stop acting like him then.  What she said about your actions doesn’t need repeated since it so very much hit it on the head.  The quotes have been provided by others and below by me.  You keep giving excuses, and yep, that is exactly what Trump and his cronies do.  Trump certainly has said that women who have abortions should be punished.  This has nothing to do with the fact that you act like him, if perhaps not in this exact case. 

You continue to try to claim that someone here claimed that abortion was the absolute panacea and *no* one did that.  You keep returning to your false claims like a dog returns to its vomit, to be blunt.  If you do want to be helpful and liked,  repeating false information and making false claims about others is not how to do it. All you’ve done is try to play the martyr card and try to manipulate everyone. 

It’s not that you haven’t been understood, you have been understood far too well, and you don’t like it when your claims are not agreed with and are shown to be false. Your baseless opinions are backed up by nothing and you have been repeatedly asked to support the things you say.  You chose to keep repeating false claims and ignoring the facts that showed you to be wrong.  You seem to be “shocked, shocked” that people get annoyed by your antics.  I’m more than happy to admit that I do get annoyed when someone is trying to pee on my face and tell me it is raining.  Most people would be, I think. You have been deceitful, ignorant and narcissistic, and that is exactly why I pointed out that such behavior isn’t very flattering and certainly won’t fly in a college environment where a lot of older students in my experience try to pull that nonsense. Again, we see the martyr card played. Too bad, JB, you made your bed by your actions, now you get to lie in it. 

It’s no problem in finding quotes where you do indeed promote the things you now claim not to.  Yep, you often try to claim you didn’t say something or that something is a strawman, but that never was supported by reality.  You did say those things and you kept whining “strawman” when it was pointed out that what you said was wrong.  It seems you might understand what a strawman actually is now. With your tendency to regress back to prior behaviors, I’m not holding my breath.  You keep asking questions about the same things you’ve already been provided with an answer and evidence for like “How on this earth does abortion increase children's health? “ when that’s been explained and again you ignore the explanation since it shows you to be wrong, just like Trump and his cronies do when they are confronted by facts. You keep claiming that women who get abortions suffer from mental illness and that’s why they get them, which is again, not supported by facts.  You ask for numbers but when they are given you ignore them.  You make claims like “Women don't get abortions to get out of poverty they get abortions because they do not want the kid. “  You claim that women should get education to get out of poverty but you give not one way that this can happen if they have no resources and are having children they can’t afford. So your nonsense about “Pregnancy does NOT prevent education” Is just more false claims made up by you with no evidence. Mental illness can surely prevent education; and being treated for it can get one straightened out so they can get that education. My husband is a prime example.

You have moved the goalposts when you ask “how many women got out of poverty as a direct result of having an abortion” which is again a claim that no one has made, and is only a true strawman when you do not accurately reflect what another has said.   You have made idiotic comments like this “Y'all make it sound like getting an abortion is hitting the lottery.” Then when called on it, you claimed it was just “hyperbole” and “sarcasm”.  It was neither.  A hyperbole is indeed an exaggeration but you intended on this to be taken literally because that is the only way your argument works is if this exaggeration is true.  Sarcasm used to mock or convey contempt, which is also not what you did.  You tried to imply that someone said what they didn’t. You have made baseless claims like “Is there a study that shows the outcomes for the women and the children of those women who were convinced to not have the abortion?   They are probably happy with their decision, IMO.” And ignore questions asked by others if lying to someone is a good thing if it makes them change their mind or feel good about their swayed decision. You dodged the question, nothing more. You also make the false claim that women who want an abortion “would rather die” than not have an abortion, which is not the case at all. Those women want an abortion and *not* to die. It is those who would put blocks in their path that cause abortion to be a much more dangerous procedure than it should be.

You’ve also said perfectly wrong things like “Pulling out is a pretty good form of birth control.”  Which is an example of your ignorance causing real harm.  Compared to the rates of the pill, IUD, etc pulling out depends on the man, so the woman ignores her responsibility, and has a failure rate of between 27% and 4%.  What a horrible thing to tell a young woman that “hey, you have a 1 in 4 change of being made pregnant.”  You have also made false dichotomy claims by saying that one may have to give up legal abortions to get better public welfare.  No evidence for this and a dangerous thing to claim, for there is nothing to show we need to give up one or the other at all.  You claimed that counseling would not work and then you claim it would work.  You want to be a counselor but are sure that no counseling would have worked on you.  There is nothing that shows that abortion is the cause of depression/suicidal thoughts as you claim without even looking any information up.  There is nothing to show that mental illness in the form of “insecurity” causes someone to have multiple abortions. You make nonsense like this up: “I'm telling you it's a fact those girls grow up to be promiscuous and that's what causes unwanted pregnancies.” And think a link to a dating website should be taken seriously.   You constantly assume you know such things and then reveal you haven’t a clue what you are talking about, having done no research at all. You just keep saying nonsense like “it proves my point a little bit” when you get shown you are wrong, unable to actually take responsibility for what you said, and still stringing it out.   

And now, you try to pull the same nonsense again, asking Albeto if she is an expert in psychology.  It’s simply bs that you are “just asking”.  That’s the words of someone desperate to excuse her actions yet again by trying to poison the well and trying to shift the burden of proof to Albeto.  You have nothing so you want to hide that fact.  No one has to be an expert in psychology to find evidence that your claims are simply nonsense.  All you are doing is trying to shift the blame.  Hmm, where did the information come from?  The links you so diligently ignored and are evidently *still* ignoring.  Asking questions can be valid; but not in this case. All you are showing is willful ignorance.  You claim sex causes suffering, rape, etc and again that’s your opinion, and in theory we should be seeing a thread about that, no?  you want to claim that a woman who doesn’t want a child should care it and give it away, but again you are terribly ignorant on how dangerous pregnancy can be.  You think not being responsible or sensible is somehow “mental illness” which shows you have little concept about what mental illness is.  You try to claim that everyone must think the way you do, act the way you do, agree with what you say and then when that’s pointed out, then you lash like a 5 year old and try to claim that everyone else does that, not you.

I like this from the James Randi Education Foundation forums “JAQing off - 1. the act of spouting accusations while cowardly hiding behind the claim of "just asking questions." 2. asking questions and ignoring the answers. "He said he was going to present evidence, but instead he was just JAQing off."

That you may be 44 and feel like you are 64 or walk like a 75 year old appears to be nothing more than an appeal to pity, argumentum ad misericordiam. We all have problems, some greater than others. None of that is an excuse for your false claims.  You chose to make them.  Showing you that you are wrong is isn’t “aggressive”; it’s reality.  And if you can’t handle the discussions here, I have no idea what you’ll do in college.  Telling a teacher that you deserve a good grade even if you have no evidence for your claims in an paper, but your foot hurts, isn’t going to fly very well.  And as for taking public speaking, one word of advice that I got from my public speaking professor who was a Vietnam vet:  If they aren’t shooting at you, you have nothing to worry about.

If you were interested in the evidence given, you’d have long ago read it since the links were given.  Why are you being such an ass about not reading them and then trying to pretend that you are ever-so interested?   What would a new thread help, JB?   We aren’t off topic at all.   I think this is the second claim about how you will start a new thread and surprise, nothing gets made.  You claim you were going to do one on “how abstinence improves the human condition” on a post dated 3/3 and I haven’t seen that yet.   Your post history here does not show that you have honor or keep your word.  Claiming it to be so doesn’t make it true.  Actions speak louder than words, and words are preserved here too. 

You keep offering excuses on how it is some other factor to blame on why you post false information.  I might buy that if you didn’t repeat the falsehoods after being called on them.  But that doesn’t happen, and you make the choice in trying to remove the ability of people to make an informed decision.  You claim you admit when you are wrong.  We have one instance, that you now finally believing that forcing counseling on women who want abortions is bad. 

You have a lot further to go.   

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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #234 on: March 17, 2017, 09:47:33 AM »
Thing is when the press reports Trump tweets they provide the tweet.  You are not providing the tweet.

Are you asking for direct quotes to what you believe? I answered directly after your question. Let me share it again:

Quote
I am convinced if you solve the problem of poverty you avoid producing suffering thereby avoiding mental illness.

Anyway. Carrying on...


[edit for clarity]
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 09:59:55 AM by albeto »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #235 on: March 18, 2017, 07:22:04 AM »
That's some lame quote mining right there.

@ Velkyn Unless you believe in the supernatural ability to read minds I suggest you quit trying to know my intentions.  I know my intentions not you.  If I said I was being sarcastic I was.  Introducing education to that equation was not a detrimental thing to do.  In fact it was the right thing to do.  I want to know what kind of magic you used to get into my head. 

So yea I think a man has some responsibility as well as the woman in preventing unwanted pregnancy.  http://www.feministcenter.org/en/health-wellness-services/comprehensive-gyn/birth-control-options/birth-control-information/108-pulling-out

I am not walking back on that claim.  I stand by it. 

I said I was wrong to over react about climate change.  That's not Trump like. 

Trump makes fun of snowflakes like me who got triggered because of his election. In that regard,trying to trigger me, Velkyn you are more like Trump than I will ever be.  I'm not going to be giving you that satisfaction.  You are powerless in regards to my life.  You can't take away my health insurance.  You can't cut regulations that protect our air and water.   You can't hurt me at all.  I consider you a disgusting human being so I don't value you.   Just like Trump.  In fact I think you are more disgusting than trump. 

In fact you did not give me the numbers I asked for.  Instead you continue the line that abortion solves these problems instead of education.  You got pissed off that I even asked the question.  You assume my intentions when you couldn't possibly know them unless you have supernatural powers.  Please explain this woo woo.

I said all along I am against dishonest counseling.  That isn't new.  I'm sure you can find it at least 10 times in this thread. 

I am not going to own something I didn't say.  Taking statements out of context is the same thing.

You are not qualified to diagnose mental illness.  I could sue you for practicing w/o a license.  My therapist you will never be.  You better stick with rocks. 

The only thing I regret was over reacting to Trump's election. I was willing to trade abortion to make that go away.  That I regret with every fiber of my being. 

Relating mental illness to abortion I do not regret, it needed to be known.  Adding education to the defeating poverty equation I do not regret either.  Not walking it back, owning it.  I'm not saying "education" and meaning microwaves.  I actually mean education is the path away from poverty.  That is exactly what I mean.  No little quoteys.  I am not attacking/slandering my opponents.  That's your strategy JUST LIKE TRUMP.  You have a history of it.  Just like Trump. 

Do you really think posts on this forum affect the outside world?  Why else are you so mad?  You think my posts here are going to cause someone suffering?  Me this obscure person can do that much damage on a forum with a handful of participants?  That's not realistic at all.  How about being realistic?  You are way too upset over posts on this forum.  Maybe you should talk to a therapist about that.  My therapist helps me quite a bit see how silly it is to get upset over an online conversation/argument with strangers.  I am very thankful to have her in my life. 

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Online velkyn

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #236 on: March 18, 2017, 08:01:19 AM »
That's some lame quote mining right there.

Yep, there we go.  You whine about no one quoting you, and when they do, you try to claim that you were quote mined. How unsurprising.  There is no reason to believe you at all, JB.  Your claims are still baseless since you have refused to provide evidence and in many cases your claims are demonstrably wrong.   There is no magic needed in getting into your head at all when you continue to make false claims as this "Instead you continue the line that abortion solves these problems instead of education."  For someone who complains she is taken out of context, I would think you would think better of making up completely false claims about others.

As has been noted before, you tend to lash out without thinking when you are confronted. Please support your claims. 
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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #237 on: March 18, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »
That's some lame quote mining right there.

You were asking for examples. Now you object to examples? This is what I meant when I said you speak like Trump. Maybe Trump and Spicer is a better analogy as Spicer is Trump's spokesman and tries to clarify for the public what was said. This strikes me as being in the same vein as saying, "well, there's quotation marks around it, so it doesn't count" (paraphrasing). You're not referring to quotation marks, you're referring to, I guess time? Quote mining suggests looking back in time at to find something that, even when taken out of context, looks like it supports a claim. Velkyn is not quote mining as she's referring to this very thread. She is doing exactly what you asked for but instead of acknowledging what was said, you're attempting to dismiss its value from the discussion altogether. I've reminded you of these same links but you've not said a word. I don't know what your pov on the information provided is, other than you seem to object to velkyn having provided it.

Quote
So yea I think a man has some responsibility as well as the woman in preventing unwanted pregnancy.  http://www.feministcenter.org/en/health-wellness-services/comprehensive-gyn/birth-control-options/birth-control-information/108-pulling-out

Again, I think you misunderstand the point. The point isn't that men aren't responsible, the point is that "pulling out" is known to be an unreliable solution to avoiding unwanted pregnancy. People who continue to promote solutions that are known to be unreliable are part of the problem, not the solution.

Quote
I am not walking back on that claim.  I stand by it.


So what? No one brought that up but you. There are now two different claims being discussed, and you're ignoring the first ("pulling out" is irresponsible advice) by defending the second (what no one was talking about until you said it just now). So will you walk back on the claim that pulling out is a pretty good form of birth control, or do you stand by it despite the evidence to the contrary?

Quote
I said I was wrong to over react about climate change.  That's not Trump like. 

Trump makes fun of snowflakes like me who got triggered because of his election. In that regard,trying to trigger me, Velkyn you are more like Trump than I will ever be.


I fear you missed my point about the Trump reference and will forever believe any similarities are on the table. That's simply not true. My point was solely with reference to ignoring claims by claiming those claims don't really count when held accountable to logic or facts, or reality, really.

Quote
In fact you did not give me the numbers I asked for. Instead you continue the line that abortion solves these problems instead of education.
 

You're wrong again. She provided info, I provided links to more info. Your question was answered, which you would recognize if you simply read the info. Just like the foolish "pulling out" vs. "men are responsible too" bullshit, you quickly ignore the points discussed (safe and affordable abortion is linked to increased financial and social independence for individuals and society) and instead defend a claim that no one was talking about before (education matters too).

Quote
I said all along I am against dishonest counseling.  That isn't new.  I'm sure you can find it at least 10 times in this thread. 

Interestingly, you've avoided questions regarding "honest counseling" with regard to seeking abortions until your recent summary that ignored everything you had argued earlier and parroted screwtape's early arguments about counseling (she doesn't need it at all). So sure, now you're against dishonest counseling. No one ever suggested you were *for* dishonest counseling. Now you simply declare a new opinion. Out of the blue. This is why your pov is not understandable, even when you lay it out. It's like trying to nail jell-o to the wall. It's constantly changing. It's just not stable.

Quote
I could sue you for practicing w/o a license.
   

???

Quote
I actually mean education is the path away from poverty.


Had you read the info velkyn provided, you'd have seen the same idea was included there. Once again, you're defending yourself against a claim no one is making. Unless I'm mistaken, and please do find the quote that corrects me if I'm wrong, no one has suggested that education isn't a variable in poverty. You continue to defend that it is, despite no one arguing the opposite, while ignoring the actual claims being referred to.

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #238 on: March 18, 2017, 12:48:41 PM »
You can't hurt me at all.  I consider you a disgusting human being so I don't value you.

Earlier you said you don't respond well to aggressive behavior. How interesting that you use aggressive behavior yourself when pushed for responses to clarify or defend what you've said. I find this to be offensive behavior in general, and I hope you don't see one single counseling patient in your life until you can get your own emotions in check. If a counselor spoke like this to a person seeking help I should hope they lose their license to practice right away, at the very least. Patients routinely frustrate counselors for any number of reasons. You've done this bullshit a number of times in the course of many threads, to me as well as velkyn, and I find your emotional manipulation to be a childish and bullyish solution to your discomfort. You're not only unreasonable, you're hostile and aggressive when on the defensive. How dare you tell a person you find them a disgusting human being in response to having different points of view from you. What a remarkably nasty thing to say.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #239 on: March 19, 2017, 09:39:47 AM »
My goal was to raise awareness to mental illness and how it relates to abortion.  I did that.   

Let this sink in Velkyn and albeto: I will not be talked to in that manner. 

Yes I agree our exchanges on this forum are interesting. 

Velkyn wasn't seeking help, was she?  She crossed a language boundary.  In that regard I have every right to strike back.  Just call me daredevil. 

 

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Online velkyn

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #240 on: March 19, 2017, 11:49:13 AM »
My goal was to raise awareness to mental illness and how it relates to abortion.  I did that.   

Let this sink in Velkyn and albeto: I will not be talked to in that manner. 

Yes I agree our exchanges on this forum are interesting. 

Velkyn wasn't seeking help, was she?  She crossed a language boundary.  In that regard I have every right to strike back.  Just call me daredevil.

Your actions will be pointed out and addressed if they are untrue.  Threats and demands are worthless.   

You have repeatedly made false claims about mental illness and abortion, so what you've said about those topics is only getting awareness of them by showing how much false information is made about them by people like you. 

You have repeatedly made false claims that anyone said that abortion was the only way out of poverty among other things.  You have yet to show how someone who is poor gets an education if they don't have the resources to start with, especially if they have children.   You do not read what is written, depending on willful ignorance to keep your beliefs, and still are attacking strawmen that you have invented since you have nothing to support your own claims. You make false claims about being quote mined, and claim "context" although you refuse to show what this supposed context is and how it would change your claims.   You try to make claims about "pulling out" when that has a high percentage of failing.   To think pulling out makes a man more responsible is just ridiculous. A man does not have to ejaculate to put sperm in the vagina, the pre-ejaculate fluid can contain sperm.  I was correcting my friends who believed the nonsense you are trying to spread 40 years ago in high school.  It's a shame I still have to do that now.  A man should indeed be responsible but it comes down to the woman who has the risk and who has the responsibility to make sure.   I would recommend reading the following links, because, considering the claim you have made, you seem unaware of much about birth control:

a study on the presence of sperm in pre-ejaculate  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564677/

the various forms of birth control: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control

 
as for your last sentence about me, I have no idea what you are talking about. As it stands a the moment, I would not consider looking for help from you, who has no problem in spreading false information. That situation may change.  If you were referring to Albeto's pointing out your false statements about me, I appreciate her words and the time taken to read your post and mine. 

What is a "language boundary"?  This seems to be one more vague claim you have invented while you lash out blindly and make more and more false claims in your desperation to be seen as correct.   I second Albeto when she says she hoped you never see a patient as a counselor until you get your own emotions in check.  Your tendency to make claims and then not support them, while ignoring facts that demonstrate that show you are wrong, is not what is needed in a counselor.  Unfortunately, it is far too easy to imagine a situation where you as a counselor is questioned by a patient about what you told them, when they've found out it is wrong.  If you would react like you have here, you would indeed deserve to lose your license to practice. 

Please support your claims, e.g." “I'm telling you it's a fact those girls grow up to be promiscuous and that's what causes unwanted pregnancies.” and so many others with evidence.  It's a shame it has come to this, JB. You occasionally have made very good points.   
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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #241 on: March 19, 2017, 11:59:19 AM »
My goal was to raise awareness to mental illness and how it relates to abortion.  I did that.   

Your "awareness" was a bunch of information you guessed about, which was then applied it erroneously. You still haven't responded to comments that corrected your last assertion that eliminating poverty will eliminate mental illness. I mean, do you really, genuinely believe this? If so, how? Based on what reasons? How do you reconcile such a statement with the mounds of evidence that shows the contrary? Or is this another impulsive post that doesn't really mean the way it sounds when asked... because reasons?

Let this sink in Velkyn and albeto: I will not be talked to in that manner. 

What manner, precisely? It's okay for you to call people "disgusting human beings," but not okay for others to suggest that's childish and unreasonable? Sorry, but it's perfectly appropriate, nay ethically responsible, to call out bullies when they attempt to silence people who dare disagree with them. Any time I see you attempt to harass people, I will bring it up. Openly and without restraint. If you want to avoid being called a bully, stop acting like one. 

Velkyn wasn't seeking help, was she?  She crossed a language boundary.  In that regard I have every right to strike back.  Just call me daredevil.

I'm calling bullshit. I don't have any idea what you're talking about now, and I dare you, Ms. Daredevil, to provide the quote in which you had "every right" to tell someone they're a "disgusting human being." Just like our mutual "friend" who has become the go-to reference for weaseling out of accountability is learning, at some point people will call you out on your bizarre, inflammatory accusations. Time to pay the piper, jb. You made an accusation, now come through with the evidence. And please explain how it justifies personal attacks like calling a person disgusting.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #242 on: March 21, 2017, 07:39:10 AM »
I did not claim anybody said abortion was the only way out of poverty.  I said; "you make it sound like" and that was sarcasm.   That sarcasm was explained in the same post.  The 5 women I know are still poor as fuck. 

I have asked for quotes of these false claims I have made and none have been provided.   

I did not guess that mental illness is related to abortion.  That is lived experience.  Just like a fisherman can tell you a worm coils when you put it on the hook.  Something you might not know if you have never fished with worms.  That was not an accident.  I knew it.  It's a fact in my life.  I am in the majority of 75%  of women seeking abortion.   I asked how many women that had abortions got out of poverty?  No answer.  All I got was in keeps them from being more poor because kids cost money. 

I had my abortion because I already had one child molested by my brother.  I was not going to take that chance with another child in my family full of pervs. 

In post 146 I proved I'm not the only one.  I used reliable sources.  That showed: 1) 75% of women seeking abortion are poor 2) poverty causes depression, a form of mental illness 3) poor women are more likely to experience abuse.  Conclusion abortion is related to mental illness.  I mentioned impulse control.  That includes sexual behavior. 

I never said pulling out was 100% effective, but it does work 75-96% of the time.  This is in the link I shared.   It's more about men taking 1/2 the responsibility for unwanted pregnancy. 

She shouldn't have called me trump.  I just posted how his election triggered me.  She endangered my life.  She triggered my fight or flight mechanisms.  I actually took it easy on her.  Thankfully I have coping skills now.  But that post did increase my heart rate.  Cortisol was released and that causes harm to my body. 

You apologized for it knowing it was wrong.  Her post was angry and insulting.  That's crossing language boundaries.  People need healthy boundaries.  People say stuff online they wouldn't say to your face. 

She's the one who needs to control her emotions. 

She keeps on trying to communicate with me in this way.  Our exchanges prove it not effective at all. 


Calling someone Trump and calling someone disgusting are the same damn thing.  Especially when I'm not guilty. 

The two of you are trying real hard to discourage my chosen major.  How about just a simple 123 list of the false claims instead of an extremely hateful manifesto? 

Of course you two agree with each other.  You always do in our exchanges here.   

It's obvious you don't like me so why engage me?  That feeling is mutual. 

We agree on legal abortion.
Education gets men and women out of poverty.
We agree mental illness is related to abortion.
We agree anti-abortionists are not pro-life.

I do not agree that I'm the pos Velkyn puts forward.  I see no need to continue subjecting myself to this written verbal abuse.  It's not effective to communicate with me in this manner.  You are certainly free to do it.  It doesn't mean you should.  It falls under the definition of insanity: doing the same thing expecting a different result.

For me to continue having any more coversations/fights with you two will put me in that same category. 

If you give me a simple list of the false claims I will address it.  I won't address insults with anything but insults.

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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #243 on: March 21, 2017, 12:18:03 PM »
I have asked for quotes of these false claims I have made and none have been provided.   

I don't know how to be more direct. Perhaps if the font is in another color you'll notice it this time. For the third time:

I am convinced if you solve the problem of poverty you avoid producing suffering thereby avoiding mental illness.

At this point, I don't think there's any reason to assume you understand how studies or research works, and you refuse to accept explanations from people who frustrate you. It would be a waste of time to provide, for the umpteenth time, the answers to your questions.

Throughout this entire thread you've suggested mental illness, as a whole, is "caused" by certain factors, a claim we know to be false. Mental illness encompasses conditions like schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, BPD, psychopathy, eating disorders, addictive behaviors, and others that do not discriminate; it can affect anyone regardless of age, gender, income, social status, race/ethnicity, religion/spirituality, sexual orientation, background or other aspect of cultural identity. Your continued insistence that it is *caused* by poverty is insulting, distracting, dangerous, and just. plane. wrong. To insist that you're correct despite the fact that mental health researchers and practitioners have known for *years* that poverty is not the *cause* of mental illness is absolutely absurd.

She shouldn't have called me trump.  I just posted how his election triggered me.  She endangered my life.  She triggered my fight or flight mechanisms.  I actually took it easy on her.  Thankfully I have coping skills now.  But that post did increase my heart rate.  Cortisol was released and that causes harm to my body. 

This is a fantastic example of your inability to reply to what's been written but instead, presumably, to what you think was meant.

Velkyn didn't call you Trump. No one did. I said, you sound like Trump when you make a statement then fall back on the old, "I didn't mean it that way" routine when someone calls you on it. Interestingly, the particular situation that inspired this analogy, the supposed wire tapping, is now being defended by Trump despite multiple people with pertinent information saying there is no evidence to support such a claim. Rather than provide evidence, Trump continues to reiterate the claim. So long as you continue to defend the idea that poverty causes mental illness and mental illness is what inspires abortion[1], I think this analogy still applies.

Talking about abortion when it's one of the hottest political topics, knowing that politics may at any time invoke Trump's name, implies you are fully capable of dealing with the stress that hearing his name provides you, and that your life is not "endangered." Good grief.

You apologized for it knowing it was wrong.  Her post was angry and insulting.  That's crossing language boundaries.  People need healthy boundaries.  People say stuff online they wouldn't say to your face. 

Your double standards don't fly. Velkyn's language is no different than anyone else's on this thread. I asked you to provide a quote to explain how calling someone a "disgusting human being" was warranted, and rather than providing a quote you defend yourself by saying your feelings were hurt. The boundaries are on you. If you can't handle the emotional strain of being challenged, the answer is not to try and bully others to change their behavior to suit your emotional needs[2], the answer is to find a safer environment for yourself. 

It's obvious you don't like me so why engage me? 

Because you keep throwing out dangerous and insulting comments and presenting them as facts. Because this is a discussion forum.

If you give me a simple list of the false claims I will address it.  I won't address insults with anything but insults.

Let's start with the one at the top of this post.
 1. The contention that mental illness is related to abortion is only relevant if the relation itself is relevant. Just saying the two conditions apply isn't significant.
 2. The idea of trying to bully velkyn is really quite amusing.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #244 on: March 22, 2017, 06:51:34 AM »
You're right albeto that was narrow minded. 

I am an amateur at research. 

Frustrate is an understatement.  Let's use the word insults me instead. 

You are correct that there are forms of mental illness that doesn't discriminate.  Now I understand why you are so upset.  I apologize.   

Let me be clear we could have gotten here w/o calling me trump like.  I still don't see that correlation.

As far as Velkyn goes I can quote her twice telling me she doesn't respect me.  She reinforces that with every word she posts to me.  That's why I find her disgusting.  She thinks I have no value. That's a bully.  That's more like Trump than any theist or deplorable you can find. Bad JB sick woman.  I have 2 choices believe her or find that disgusting.  I choose the latter.

If you want the quotes I will get them but not from my phone, not that good on my phone.  One of them is in the thread Velkyn strong atheism the other is in another place.  I will have to pm that one.  Again not from the phone. 

She will probably confirm that again anyway given our history.  She really owes me an apology or just leave me alone, would be noble as well.




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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #245 on: March 22, 2017, 07:02:52 AM »
BTW you used the word inspire I continually insist it's related.  Are those two different things?  Inspire/related? 

This is why I ask for quotes.  Quote me one time using the word inspire.  Thanks.  If you would quit putting words in my mouth your posts would not frustrate or insult me.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #246 on: March 22, 2017, 11:08:36 AM »
I am an amateur at research. 

Professionalism is not required. Are you familiar with how it works? Do the conclusions of studies velkyn shared earlier make sense? If not, we can go over them if you'd like.

You are correct that there are forms of mental illness that doesn't discriminate.  Now I understand why you are so upset.  I apologize.   

I'm not emotionally invested in this conversation, so my being upset is not really an issue here but thank you for sharing that you recognize the difference. And it's a huge difference.

Let me be clear we could have gotten here w/o calling me trump like.  I still don't see that correlation.

Then let me be clear. Again, no one called you Trump. My saying you sound like Trump is, like I said, a specific reference to your habit of putting forth the idea that you were taken out of context when the context of your comment was perfectly understandable, and you simply cannot or will not defend it so instead try and convince us to excuse it.

I have 2 choices believe her or find that disgusting. 

I keep reading and rereading velkyn's posts and cannot find any language that differs from mine. Although, as I read through this post, I suspect this topic is better analyzed between you and your therapist. Perhaps your therapist can help you see more choices than just these two.

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #247 on: March 22, 2017, 11:43:07 AM »
BTW you used the word inspire I continually insist it's related.  Are those two different things?  Inspire/related? 

They are different. Correlation does not equal causation. Being related just means two variables are present at the same time. It doesn't mean one variable influenced the other. You might say a percentage of women wear nail polish when getting an abortion, but that doesn't mean nail polish is related to abortion in any meaningful way. If mental health is related to abortion in any meaningful way, what is it?

You claim that poverty causes mental illness, and doing away with poverty will eradicate mental illness. Is this how you believe it is related? I believe this is the fourth time I've brought this up, and again, nothing but crickets from you. Do you wish to reply to this yet?

This is why I ask for quotes.  Quote me one time using the word inspire.  Thanks.  If you would quit putting words in my mouth your posts would not frustrate or insult me.

In my experience, you get frustrated and feel insulted when people disagree with you and continue to challenge you, most especially about something that carries importance with you. I'm not putting words in your mouth because I never suggested you said the word "inspire." I specifically use the word inspire because being related is irrelevant otherwise. So show the relevance, that is, show how one variable inspires the outcome if you want me to consider your comment seriously. I can see that confuses you so I'll stop and wait for you to explain the relationship in your own words.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #248 on: March 22, 2017, 02:25:38 PM »
I said I was wrong and apoligized.

I told you this thing with Velkyn started in other threads.  I don't recall you stooping so low as to say I don't deserve respect. 

I am nothing like trump.  Trump does this stuff intentionally.  I do not. 

I don't know what Velkyn posted.   

As far as continuing here I'd rather just say this thread is over my head.

I'm pro-choice.  I'm not changing that position. 

 

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #249 on: March 22, 2017, 03:03:27 PM »
I am not impeccable with my words.  I've been reading old posts.   I have been an arrogant bitch.

I am so sorry to Velkyn and to you albeto.   Very sorry. 
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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #250 on: March 22, 2017, 03:08:42 PM »
I am nothing like trump.  Trump does this stuff intentionally.  I do not. 

Well, the analogy certainly works whether or not either of you do this stuff intentionally.

I'm pro-choice.  I'm not changing that position.

Yes, we know. You keep saying that. What we don't know is how you are convinced that by solving the problem of poverty we can avoid producing suffering thereby avoiding mental illness. Or by your silence do you mean to retract it?


edited for clarity
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 04:09:10 PM by albeto »

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #251 on: March 22, 2017, 03:09:44 PM »
I am not impeccable with my words.  I've been reading old posts.   I have been an arrogant bitch.

I am so sorry to Velkyn and to you albeto.   Very sorry.

That's gracious. Thank you.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #252 on: March 22, 2017, 03:58:02 PM »
In fact I'm sorry to screwtape, Azgardi, jaime, emma, Jag and to anybody who read my comments here.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #253 on: March 22, 2017, 04:10:45 PM »
I am not impeccable with my words.  I've been reading old posts.   I have been an arrogant bitch.

I am so sorry to Velkyn and to you albeto.   Very sorry.

That's gracious. Thank you.

Thank you for thanking me.  I mean it too.  I am sorry.  Not just for this thread either. 

I called Velkyn a liar and like Hitler.  I am a hypocrite that doesn't deserve respect.  I am like trump.


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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #254 on: March 22, 2017, 07:29:33 PM »
Up.  Down.  Up.  Down.  And back up.

I've learned to take neither all that seriously anymore.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #255 on: March 23, 2017, 05:32:24 AM »
Up.  Down.  Up.  Down.  And back up.

I've learned to take neither all that seriously anymore.

You have the right to your feelings.  I am however sorry you feel that way. 

Why do you think I'm like that Azgardi?   I'm down not up.  Does determinism explain anything?  Does nature/nuture explain anything? 

What do you know about early childhood trauma and how that affects the brain? 

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 05:44:09 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #256 on: March 23, 2017, 10:46:27 AM »
Oh, I don't blame you for being like that, Junebug.  I realize it's involuntary.  But the fact still is, when your posts are essentially your trauma speaking, it ceases to make any sense to read them as genuine statements.  You don't really mean the things you say.

Again, not your fault, but still a reality to react to.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #257 on: March 23, 2017, 11:31:01 AM »
Oh, I don't blame you for being like that, Junebug.  I realize it's involuntary.  But the fact still is, when your posts are essentially your trauma speaking, it ceases to make any sense to read them as genuine statements.  You don't really mean the things you say.

Again, not your fault, but still a reality to react to.

It certainly seems I am being held responsible.   I can't have healthy interactions here, I can't be liked because of what that mutherfucker did to me. 

It's like being raped all over again.   I hope I get banned before I kill myself.  This forum is not safe for me anymore. 
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Online velkyn

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #258 on: March 23, 2017, 08:25:15 PM »
Get help, and then come back here.  You can have healthy interactions.  But you 've got to listen to people and not take everything as an attack.  If your current counselor isn't working out, then find another.  My husband had to try a couple until he found someone he could work with, and it took a while to get a good diagnosis, ultra rapid cycling bipolar disorder.  In my experience, you have some of the symptoms as he does when off his meds.  As I've said, you've often given great comments here. 

I did not claim anybody said abortion was the only way out of poverty.  I said; "you make it sound like" and that was sarcasm.   That sarcasm was explained in the same post.  The 5 women I know are still poor as fuck.
You have no idea what sarcasm is. JB.  It is not making false claims about others.  And again, you try very hard to repeat your nonsense, by mentioning how poor these women are.   
Quote
I have asked for quotes of these false claims I have made and none have been provided.
That has already been done. Again and again and again.  It doesn't work to repeat a request that has already been satisfied, as if you think people will believe that it hasn't.  As you'll see, I did a bit down below just in case it might help.
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I did not guess that mental illness is related to abortion.  That is lived experience.  Just like a fisherman can tell you a worm coils when you put it on the hook.  Something you might not know if you have never fished with worms.  That was not an accident.  I knew it.  It's a fact in my life.  I am in the majority of 75%  of women seeking abortion.   I asked how many women that had abortions got out of poverty?  No answer.  All I got was in keeps them from being more poor because kids cost money. 
Since you asked for where you made false claims, we can continue right here.  You claimed that abortion is related to mental illness and that this is the reason women get abortions.   And again, you repeat your nonsense about how many women got out of poverty by abortion only, and *this* shows again that you did indeed try to claim that others said that this was possible when they did not. 
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I had my abortion because I already had one child molested by my brother.  I was not going to take that chance with another child in my family full of pervs.
I am curious if you reported any of this to the authorities.
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In post 146 I proved I'm not the only one.  I used reliable sources.  That showed: 1) 75% of women seeking abortion are poor 2) poverty causes depression, a form of mental illness 3) poor women are more likely to experience abuse.  Conclusion abortion is related to mental illness.  I mentioned impulse control.  That includes sexual behavior.
Albeto showed how this nonsense was wrong at #154.  Funny how those links did not say one word about abortion being related to mental illness.  You claimed causation.  And now we have one of the worst attempts at showing causation I have seen on this forum and that includes the theists.  One of the links is a blog post that cites nothing.  You really think this is research, JB?   You claim you could like us "to death" and this is what you ended up with. 
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I never said pulling out was 100% effective, but it does work 75-96% of the time.  This is in the link I shared.   It's more about men taking 1/2 the responsibility for unwanted pregnancy. 
You said it was a "pretty good" way of birth control and that is not true.  I also do not recall you showing a link, but I sure did and I gave those numbers and that 1 out of 4 failure rate, and the 96% is if you use it perfectly.   It's bullshit that pulling out makes men more responsible.  What is a woman going to do when that doesn't happen, JB?  Why would anyone be stupid enough to put their life in someone else's hands that was so easy to take care of yourself?   
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She shouldn't have called me trump.  I just posted how his election triggered me.  She endangered my life.  She triggered my fight or flight mechanisms.  I actually took it easy on her.  Thankfully I have coping skills now.  But that post did increase my heart rate.  Cortisol was released and that causes harm to my body.
I said you were like Trump, and I have no regret in pointing that you are very like him in quite a few ways so far.  You have no problem in mentioning Trump yourself, so I don't believe your claims regarding that your life was in danger.  No need to claim you supposedly "took it easy" on me, because there is no reason to believe that either.  You seem to be making these claims in further attempts at manipulation.
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You apologized for it knowing it was wrong.  Her post was angry and insulting.  That's crossing language boundaries.  People need healthy boundaries.  People say stuff online they wouldn't say to your face. 
Oh, I would say this to your face, JB.  I do not put up with people who try to pee on my face and tell me its raining.  The only boundaries you seem to want is for people to not dare show you to be wrong.  That won't happen.   
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She's the one who needs to control her emotions. 
She keeps on trying to communicate with me in this way.  Our exchanges prove it not effective at all. 
Calling someone Trump and calling someone disgusting are the same damn thing.  Especially when I'm not guilty. 
You have again made false claims, and have refused to support those claims. You claim that Trump does things intentionally but you do not. However, when your repeated claims are pointed out and you reiterate them, then yes, you do things intentionally.  You have not bothered to read the information given to you to show you how you are wrong.  And no, saying that you share similar qualities with Trump is not the same as calling someone disgusting.  The fact that you ignore the information given does show that exchanges with you are often not effective, but that is not because I have shown you information and have pointed out that you have been less than honest. You are correct (in a later post) that I have said that I do not respect you.  You have given me no reason to, and respect is earned not demanded.   
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The two of you are trying real hard to discourage my chosen major.  How about just a simple 123 list of the false claims instead of an extremely hateful manifesto? 
Of course you two agree with each other.  You always do in our exchanges here.   
It's obvious you don't like me so why engage me?  That feeling is mutual. 
I engage you because I don't like false information to be spread as if you have some right to take away the ability of people to make informed decisions just because being wrong upsets you.  The reason I am pointing out that your chosen major may be a problem is that you have no problem in making false claims to people, and that you get blindly upset when someone dares point out that you are wrong.  Those demonstrated attributes will make college very hard for you. 
Quote
We agree on legal abortion.
Education gets men and women out of poverty.
We agree mental illness is related to abortion.
We agree anti-abortionists are not pro-life.
You have yet to explain how education is received by people who have no resources or what few resources they have are spent on the children they have.   You have claimed that abortion causes mental illness and in that I do not agree.  You want to see the nonsense you've claimed?
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Do you understand that it takes mental illness in the form of insecurity of one's self esteem to be a multiple abortioner?
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I am convinced if you solve the problem of poverty you avoid producing suffering thereby avoiding mental illness.
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Y'all make it sound like getting an abortion is hitting the lottery.
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the majority of women have some form of mental illness already and the abortion intensifies the pre-existing condition
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Atheists promote promiscuity.
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Nobody wants to get an abortion.  No little girl dreams of growing up and getting 20 abortions.  There is a cause and it's impulse control.  That is a symptom of mental illness.
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I'm getting an intuition that some people here care about abortion but don't give a flying fuck about women's issues on a broader scale.  That's because of the consistent denial that mental illness and abortion are not intertwined.  I wonder if they own stock?

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I do not agree that I'm the pos Velkyn puts forward.  I see no need to continue subjecting myself to this written verbal abuse.  It's not effective to communicate with me in this manner.  You are certainly free to do it.  It doesn't mean you should.  It falls under the definition of insanity: doing the same thing expecting a different result.
POS? I assume you might mean "piece of shit"?  Exactly where have I called you a piece of shit, JB?   If you think that being shown and told you are wrong is verbal abuse, you denigrate those who suffer verbal abuse.  I repeat myself in the hopes you will listen. And for someone who claims that others should not "diagnose" her, you seem to have little problem in doing it yourself.   
Quote
For me to continue having any more coversations/fights with you two will put me in that same category. 
If you give me a simple list of the false claims I will address it.  I won't address insults with anything but insults.

Again, where are the insults made to you, JB?   

With your repeated false claims about myself and others, then your recantations of these, and then we're back again to the same nonsense.  There is no reason to forgive you anything.  You can be liked, but that requires you to think about what you post. In large degree, you caused your own problems here.  If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call a hotline or your counselor NOW.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #259 on: March 24, 2017, 05:52:21 AM »
You called me trump like.  You said college instructors don't like older students.  You said I don't know what sarcasm is.  I actually do know what sarcasm is.  It's like mockery.  That's exactly what I did.  I mocked that. Albeto did not include education in her question to me.  I added it in there. 

Do you agree education is necessary to change a woman's economic status or is abortion all it takes?

Do you know much about impulse control? 

Atheists do promote promiscuity.  Some are even okay with incest.  Not this atheist.  I don't promote it or say it's okay for adult brothers and sisters to have sex. 

It's time to get ready for work.  I will go through our transcripts and I will list all the insults from you. 



« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 07:28:17 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #260 on: March 24, 2017, 06:38:11 AM »
Was planning to respond further once I could squeeze the time in but now wondering if this is necessarily a good idea.

I really don't intend this in any insulting way Junebug, but considering how easily you get emotionally triggered by conversations like this might it best to take a break from them until you're in a place where you don't get triggered so easily as a result of being able to better make use of coping tools. Had your therapist suggested anything else to you of help, other than leaving this site?

I think Cognitive Therapy tools can be very useful for this kind of thing. You might find checking out "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns worth looking into on Amazon. I refer back to that one regularly myself. I think it has some very good ideas in it. It discusses cognitive distortions (which, to my knowledge, everyone falls into from time to time and things like depression and anxiety make this worse) in quite a bit of depth.

Another thing Junebug, I totally get wanting to be liked. But you're never going to get that from everybody anywhere. It's the same for everyone. Everybody gets rejected by others at times, just the same as they are accepted/liked by others at times.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 06:39:49 AM by Emma286 »