Author Topic: Heaven is sexist.  (Read 5209 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2015, 02:20:32 PM »
Quote from: Mr Blackwell
Jst-

Despite the fact that nothing you have said about the mating habits of angels can be substantiated in the Bible and you have refused to disclose your source of information....all you have done so far is establish my premise as a fact.

Heaven is sexist in the classic male chauvinist tradition. All the angles came down and assumed a form with a penis. They did not choose to materialize a form with a womb. They wanted power and dominion so they chose the dominant form....at least in the minds of whomever wrote the bullshit narrative you bought into and are trying to sell us. 

If any of the angels did assume a female body...noman saw fit to write about it did they?

All his interpretations, opinions, "facts", etc., come not from his god but the Watchtower. Literally, no one here is arguing with a person.

You can read everything he spews here, there. His god doesn't speak through him -- the Watchtower speaks through him.

He's a robot programmed by his religion to repeat the same things they repeat.

At least in many other denominations people can have a differing opinion, people like him can't. His cult won't allow it.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2015, 02:38:30 PM »
And what plural word is that?

el.  elohim is plural of el. 
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H430&t=KJV

Just like Nephilim is a plural.  And goyim is a plural.  And Harradrim.  And Rohirrim.[1]

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Four/Plural_Nouns/plural_nouns.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Pluralize-a-Word-in-Hebrew

And the context is often used as a plural.  And the verb usually associated with it is a plural. 

References you find that deny this are religious references that have a strong motivation to interpret it as a "royal we" which did not exist until the 12th century CE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we
Quote
Secular scholars consider these forms to be holdovers from early Israelite/Canaanite beliefs, before the development of monolatrism/monotheism.


Because a form of the same plural word was used for Dagon in Judges 16:23.  The same plural word applied to one individual.

You are cherry picking, Hoss.  That is a form of confirmation bias, wherein you select items that confirm what you want to believe and magically ignore all the items that falsify it.



jst, sorry man, but this is either totally dishonest or totally incompetent on your part:

Quote
"Of elohim"...."Of God".  The word is 430[e] in Strong's Hebrews.  There we find:
 
"Original Word: ????????
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God"

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm

you source says:

Quote
Brown-Driver-Briggs
noun masculine plural (feminine...

1 plural in number.
a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power...
b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels...
c. angels Psalm...
d. gods...
 1. okay, that one's from Lord of the Rings, but Tolkein was a linguist and cribbed his stuff from real sources

2 Plural intensive.
a. god or goddess, always with suffix 1 Samuel 5:7 (Dagon), Judges 11:24 (Chemosh), 1 Kings 18:24 (Baal), Judges 9:27; Daniel 1:2 (twice in verse);

b. godlike one Exodus 4:16 (J; Moses in relation to Aaron), Exodus 7:1 (P; in relation to Pharaoh), 1 Samuel 28:13 (the shade of Samuel), Psalm 45:7

3 ?????????? the (TRUE) God, ??? ?????? ?? Yahweh is (the) God Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Kings 8:60; 1 Kings 18:39 (twice in verse);
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2015, 02:41:37 PM »
If you think the word does not have its natural meaning of "the gods", where is your evidence?

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm

3 ?????????? the (TRUE) God, ??? ?????? ?? Yahweh is (the) God Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Kings 8:60; 1 Kings 18:39 (twice in verse);

Deuteronomy 4:35: "thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God [haelohim]"

How many gods are being referred to there?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 02:45:56 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline screwtape

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2015, 03:58:49 PM »


2 Plural intensive.
a. god or goddess, always with suffix 1 Samuel 5:7 (Dagon), Judges 11:24 (Chemosh), 1 Kings 18:24 (Baal), Judges 9:27; Daniel 1:2 (twice in verse);

b. godlike one Exodus 4:16 (J; Moses in relation to Aaron), Exodus 7:1 (P; in relation to Pharaoh), 1 Samuel 28:13 (the shade of Samuel), Psalm 45:7

3 ?????????? the (TRUE) God, ??? ?????? ?? Yahweh is (the) God Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Kings 8:60; 1 Kings 18:39 (twice in verse);

no shit, jst.  My point was you ignored literally all the definitions that contradicted you.  And you continue to do it.




If you think the word does not have its natural meaning of "the gods", where is your evidence?


? natural meaning?  What does that even mean? 

Right now our translations of 2000 year old literature is an interpretation.  We are trying to tease out what they meant after 2000 years of changes to meaning.  Trying to say they 100% for sure meant this or that is folly.  We can be reasonably certain that they regarded "elohim" as plural in many cases because of the sentence structure - the plural form of the verb was used.  As for the sections where it appears to be used in the singular, you have no idea whether that was how it was originally used.  But archaeology seems to be against you.


Deuteronomy 4:35: "thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God [haelohim]"

How many gods are being referred to there?

As is understood today?  One.  But that is the product of 2400 years of a particular theological idea having reign.  There are many other places where it is clearly plural.  And this case is not even all that clear cut.  See the Strong's analysis:

Quote
Unto thee it was shewed,  h7200   ????? ra'ah

that thou mightest know h3045   ????? yada`

that the LORD  h3068   ??????? Y?hovah

he is God;  h430   ???????? 'elohiym

there is none else  h5750   ???? `owd

beside him.  h905   ???? bad

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&t=KJV#s=t_conc_157035

taking the definitions of each of those words, it can appear to be saying "it is shown that yhwh is part of the elohim" which would be correct.  yhwh was part of the canannite pantheon, with baal, asherah, shem, yam, shalim, etc.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2015, 04:12:06 PM »
I like yams.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2015, 04:32:25 PM »
no shit, jst.  My point was you ignored literally all the definitions that contradicted you.  And you continue to do it.

No I am not.  I am showing it does not only mean what FF says it means.

Quote
? natural meaning?  What does that even mean?

Those are not my words.  Ask FF.

Quote
Right now our translations of 2000 year old literature is an interpretation.  We are trying to tease out what they meant after 2000 years of changes to meaning.  Trying to say they 100% for sure meant this or that is folly.  We can be reasonably certain that they regarded "elohim" as plural in many cases because of the sentence structure - the plural form of the verb was used.  As for the sections where it appears to be used in the singular, you have no idea whether that was how it was originally used.  But archaeology seems to be against you.

How many Jehovahs are there?  "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Dt 6:4)  So we do have an idea how it is being used when it says, "Jehovah is haelohim".  It is referencing a single person becuase there are not many Jehovahs but one.

Quote
yhwh was part of the canannite pantheon, with baal, asherah, shem, yam, shalim, etc.

That is false.

"Yahweh may exist as an ending of some Amorite male names,[14] though the only Canaanite mention of Yahweh, found on the Mesha Stele, refers to the god of Israel contrasted with Chemosh"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_pantheon#Pantheon
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline natlegend

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2015, 04:33:09 PM »
I like yams.

-Nam

You're wrong.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2015, 04:45:23 PM »
^^^That made me giggle
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2015, 05:09:09 PM »
:'(

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline natlegend

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2015, 10:34:03 PM »
^^^That made me giggle

You're wrong too. You hear me, WRONG! YOU'RE ALL WRONG! YOU COULDN'T BE WRONGER!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"Ray, when someone asks you, if you're a god, you say YES!!"

Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2015, 12:28:16 AM »
Wrongest[1] not wronger.

Idiot.

;)

-Nam
 1. actually "more wrong" but this is fun.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2015, 12:51:18 AM »
no shit, jst.  My point was you ignored literally all the definitions that contradicted you.  And you continue to do it.

No I am not.  I am showing it does not only mean what FF says it means.

Now, you are changing your story. You have been trying to deny that Gen 6:2  can mean "the sons of the gods", and that this would be the normal meaning in this context. It is only people who hear voices in their heads and make theological excuses, who want to pretend that the bible is a single coherent text which has the meaning they decide it must have.

Quote
Quote
? natural meaning?  What does that even mean?

Those are not my words.  Ask FF.

Plural with "im".
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2015, 01:00:34 AM »
All I know is once I learned of the Canaanite gods, all those verses in the bible that previously didnt make sense, started to. Like when I used to ask, "what other gods?" and they would answer with things like money or toys. Or "why would they worship a gold bull they made?"

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2015, 01:21:35 AM »
For me, I will apply the apostle's counsel.  "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen." (2 Timothy 2:14)

Haha. What happened to the god in your head?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2015, 07:05:23 AM »
How many Jehovahs are there?

One, because jehovah - yhwh - was a different word and a singular god by the name of yhwh.  But it was not the only god. You are trying to say yhwh and elohim are one in the same word.  They are not.  They were not even the same god.

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Dt 6:4)  So we do have an idea how it is being used when it says, "Jehovah is haelohim".  It is referencing a single person becuase there are not many Jehovahs but one.

Dude, you are totally lost.  You are trying to mix english and hebrew and getting the issue confused.  But there were many Els and other gods.  There was only one yhwh, but there were elohim, meaning "gods".  "Elohim" was the whole pantheon of gods.  So saying "yhwh is haelohim" is really ambiguous at best.

It was common practice in the ancient middle east for a conquering nation to accept the defeated nation's god into their pantheon.  The greeks did this all the time.  Half of their myths and god creation stories are political allegories for war and conquest.  The hebrews did something like this too.

We know yhwh was a cult god of the south, Judah.  We know el was the god of the north, Israel.  Isra'el is a theorphoric of their god.  The two kingdoms combined because Israel got stomped.  So saying "yhwh is haelohim" was very likely a way for the two similar cultures to combine.  You seem to be trying to argue that because yhwh is singular that therefore elohim must be singlar and that fails.  You can say "Joe is a ballplayer".  That does not mean Joe is the only ballplayer.

That is false.

"Yahweh may exist as an ending of some Amorite male names,[14] though the only Canaanite mention of Yahweh, found on the Mesha Stele, refers to the god of Israel contrasted with Chemosh"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_pantheon#Pantheon

following the link in your source:

Quote
Yahweh... His origins are debated but there is widespread acceptance that he did not originate with Israel...the earliest plausible references to it place him among the nomads of the southern Transjordan

And your source firmly puts El Elyon in that pantheon.  In fact, Asherah (Elat, Athirat) was his wife.

This is helpful as well:
Quote
The chief of the Canaanite gods was El, described as "the kind, the compassionate," "the creator of creatures"; he lived in a tent on a mountain, from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, and there he presided over the Assembly of the Gods. The goddess Asherah was his consort, and the two made up the top tier of the pantheon.  The second tier was made up of their children, the divine assembly of the "seventy sons of Athirat" (another name of Asherah).  Prominent in this group was Baal, with his home on Mount Zaphon; he gradually became the dominant deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos. His sphere was the thunderstorm with its life-giving rains, so that he was also a fertility god, although not quite the fertility god. The third tier was made up of comparatively minor craftsman and trader deities, and the fourth and final tier of divine messengers and the like.

El, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"–the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[24] Yahweh, the southern warrior-god, joining the Canaanite pantheon headed by El and in time El and Yahweh were identified, with El's name becoming a generic term for "god".  A significant biblical text in this regard is Deuteronomy 32:8–9, in which the sons of El, including Yahweh, each receives his own nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#Yahweh_and_the_gods_of_Canaan

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2015, 08:07:05 AM »
Wrongest[1] not wronger.

Idiot.

;)

-Nam
 1. actually "more wrong" but this is fun.

You're the most wrongerist of all.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2015, 03:00:27 PM »
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Dt 6:4)  So we do have an idea how it is being used when it says, "Jehovah is haelohim". It is referencing a single person becuase there are not many Jehovahs but one.

Actually, the Hebrew does not say haelohim. It says elohenu.

These mistakes which you are making are not the sign of someone who is communicating with a god. They are the sign of someone going into a feeding frenzy of self deception in order to protect a delusion. Your responsibility to yourself should be to prove your beliefs wrong in order to improve your knowledge.

Your responsibility is not to correct what is in my brain. I am sure you cannot be pasting all this for my benefit since you would no doubt guess that I have already seen all the arguments for and against various translations.

Your amateur attempts at translation are just making you look stupid and showing up your delusions. You should have paid more attention to the quote you gave below, since there is no god communicating with you this week.


For me, I will apply the apostle's counsel.  "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen." (2 Timothy 2:14)
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Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2015, 03:18:12 PM »
Quote from: natlegend
You're the most wrongerist of all.

Really? Wrongerist? It would be Wrongeriest. Duh!

-Nam
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2015, 03:51:24 PM »
There was only one yhwh, but there were elohim, meaning "gods".  "Elohim" was the whole pantheon of gods.  So saying "yhwh is haelohim" is really ambiguous at best.

It's only ambiguous if you're trying to prove it's always speaking of many gods rather than showing majesty.

"Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God [haelohim] in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else." (Dt 4:39)

A single god.

"all the peoples of the earth may know that Jehovah, he is (haelohim) God; there is none else." (1 Kings 8:60)

A single god.

For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God [haelohim] that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

A single god.

"And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God [elohim] to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (Exodus 7:1)

Here it is applied to Moses.  Moses certainly didn't belong to a pantheon of gods not was he many people.

Quote
El, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"–the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[24] Yahweh, the southern warrior-god, joining the Canaanite pantheon headed by El and in time El and Yahweh were identified, with El's name becoming a generic term for "god".  A significant biblical text in this regard is Deuteronomy 32:8–9, in which the sons of El, including Yahweh, each receives his own nation

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." (Dt 32:8)

The Bible itself identifies the "Most High".

"That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18)








Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2015, 04:11:30 PM »
It's only ambiguous if you're trying to prove it's always speaking of many gods rather than showing majesty.

Your arguments don't apply to Gen 6:2 the sons of the gods saw that the daughters of men were beautiful.

If you want to claim it is a plural of majesty, then you have to accept that Dagon was a majestic god too.

It is more likely that this was just a casual plural used by ordinary people in Judah who were polytheistic.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2015, 11:08:22 AM »
It's only ambiguous if you're trying to prove it's always speaking of many gods rather than showing majesty.

This is wrong in a couple of ways.  For one, I am not trying to show that it always means multiple gods.  The word is plural and has already been conclusively been shown to mean multiple gods throughout Canaan and the the bible.  There is no arguing against that. 

I agree that it came to mean one god, but very late in the game.  Hebrews or proto-hebrews were not monotheists from the start, and the use of elohim is just one bit of evidence of their polytheistic/ polylotrous/ henotheistic history.

As for showing majesty, that is an even later development, an apologetic retro-projected by people who have lived with a Royal We for 800 years. 



Here it is applied to Moses.  Moses certainly didn't belong to a pantheon of gods not was he many people.

seriously?  As I already showed from Strong's, it is also used as terrestrial "the lords".  Your reasoning here fails.

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." (Dt 32:8)

The Bible itself identifies the "Most High".

The word in Deut 32:8 is "el elyon", which has already been shown to be a god in the pantheon of Canaan and Ugarit, a member of the elohim.  This verse shows the proto-hebrew belief in other gods and that each people had their own god.  This names their god as yhwh.

"That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18)

now you are jumping around amongst books that were not written together, by the same people or even within five generations of each other.  Whatever psalms says has little bearing on this discussion.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2015, 05:26:46 PM »
now you are jumping around amongst books that were not written together, by the same people or even within five generations of each other.  Whatever psalms says has little bearing on this discussion.

So?  They all teach the same thing.  Jehovah is God.

Quote
seriously?  As I already showed from Strong's, it is also used as terrestrial "the lords".  Your reasoning here fails.

Same difference.  Moses did not become multiple lords yet a plural word was used in reference to him.  Why?

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The word in Deut 32:8 is "el elyon", which has already been shown to be a god in the pantheon of Canaan and Ugarit, a member of the elohim.

No it hasn't.  It's been claimed.  The writer clearly taught there is only one God.

If what you say is true the Christians would be polytheists......if that's what the Bible actually taught.  But it doesn't.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Nam

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2015, 05:43:11 PM »
Jst,

You believe only what agrees with the Watchtower no matter what is stated.

Let me ask you this: if the Watchtower decided it was wrong and agreed they were polytheistic would you then say you're wrong or would you keep with the apologetics?

I mean, your religion began as a polytheistic religion, it wasn't until 1954 that it stopped being one.

 What if they decided they were wrong and went back to being polytheistic? Would you then be polytheistic, too?

Of course you would.  Can't think for yourself. Have to have someone do it for you.

-Nam

Typos amended GB
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 04:12:18 PM by Graybeard »
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2015, 06:29:30 PM »
You're an idiot. I don't state this to be rude, I state this to show how you're an idiot: you believe only what agrees with the Watchtower no matter what is stated.

That is incorrect.  I believe what the Bible teaches.  When I first talked to the Witnesses it was with the purpose of proving them wrong in their understanding of the scriptures, not to them but to myself.  I am still trying.  I do not believe because they tell me to believe.  I believe because they are right about the scriptures.  That should answer your other questions. 

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I mean, your religion began as a polytheistic religion, it wasn't until 1954 that it stopped being one.

Why do you say that?

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Of course you would. Because you're an idiot. And idiots like yourself are brainless. Can't think for yourself. Have to have someone do it for you.

Bullying is not an argument.  Rather it's a form of argumentum ad baculum.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2015, 06:48:32 PM »
It seems to me that we are confusing The sons of the gods[1] (Gen:6:4) whose sons were commonly called the Nephelim[2] with angels.

I can see nothing that links angels with the Nephelim, nor the sons of the gods, with angels other than speculation. The majority at WWGHA will say that the Nephilim have the same level as existence as pixies and Harry Potter, and there were no witnesses to the Nephelim as, very shortly after they were mentioned, all but 8 people failed to survive the flood.

The Bible describes angels several times, as JST says, they are invariably male and they are not Caucaisian men with blue-eyes and fluffy wings - they are the equivalent of battle-hardened-troops of grotesque appearance and trusted messengers, and to be quite frank, no sane woman would mate with one.


24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."  (Mark 12:18-25)

Angels do not marry or have children.
You mean that "angels in heaven"  do not marry and, by implication, do not have children.
 1. See also Satan as described in Job:1:6 and Job:2:1
 2. to be translated as either, the fallen ones, the ones who caused falling/the fall, or the ones that went down - see also Eze:32:27
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 06:51:43 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2015, 06:54:20 PM »
When I first talked to the Witnesses it was with the purpose of proving them wrong in their understanding of the scriptures, not to them but to myself.  I am still trying.

There you go again trying to prove other people wrong. You should have noticed by now that you are not so good at it. Your responsibility to yourself is to prove yourself wrong.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2015, 07:03:07 PM »
<snip>they are the equivalent of battle-hardened-troops of grotesque appearance...<snip>

I'm guessing that they can either control how they appear or when we see them, it's a projection of what we want to see.

Genesis 19 does not describe the appearance of the two angels that came to visit Lot but it does explain how all the men from the city of Sodom wanted to get to "know" them.
I am not sure how to describe the intricacies of this Hell, so I chose to begin with the most common or prominent theme of Hell, which is uncertainty.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2015, 07:18:20 PM »
If what you say is true the Christians would be polytheists......if that's what the Bible actually taught.  But it doesn't.
That's not quite true. The Israelites were polytheistic until the time of King Josiah of Judah. Josiah was a rabid Yahwist and it was he who bears the grave responsibility for monotheism.

The clearest biblical verse is "Ex:32:4: And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."



« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 07:25:51 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Heaven is sexist.
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2015, 07:33:16 PM »
<snip>they are the equivalent of battle-hardened-troops of grotesque appearance...<snip>

I'm guessing that they can either control how they appear or when we see them, it's a projection of what we want to see.

Genesis 19 does not describe the appearance of the two angels that came to visit Lot but it does explain how all the men from the city of Sodom wanted to get to "know" them.
OK, that's the last time I get my info from cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible.html
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”