Author Topic: If I could disprove the bible 100%  (Read 670 times)

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Offline epidemic

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If I could disprove the bible 100%
« on: March 26, 2015, 09:48:39 AM »
I find a couple of lost books that are contemporary to the creation of the parts of the bible, and these books are not contested as being valid.  In these books they describe the inner workings of the creation of the bible by men for political and selfish reasons.  The Torah/old Testament , new Testament both have incontrovertible document trail that indicates unambiguously that these books were purely the works of men.

What would the root of your basis of belief in god and his wants, needs and desires be based?

Offline Nam

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 11:09:44 AM »
They're not lost books, per sé, they are mainly discarded books.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline epidemic

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 11:31:09 AM »
They're not lost books, per sé, they are mainly discarded books.

-Nam

Well in my hypothetical they are not discarded books but rather recently discovered books with names dates and verifiable contemporary validation from unbiased sources. 

These books detail how they are going to pull the wool over peoples eyes.   I am just saying that virtually perfect proof is raised that indicates the books followed were fabricated with intent to deceive. 

Now that the bible in all its incarnations is proven absolutely false.  What would this do to a Christian's faith.  Would they still believe in a god just not know what its properties were?  Would they continue to practice their faith as it was prescribed in these false texts?  Would they inherently know of heaven, hell, sin, and other?

Former Christian Atheists essentially are in this situation,  the bible holds no water, do I have any reason to believe in God or gods?  We feel that the bible, lacks coherent thought, the imperfection of the bible, contradiction, and apparent pantheistic roots of the bible are apparent (completely invalidating the bible.) 

I am just curious as to what this would do to a Christian.  Absent the bible what do they feel is compelling evidence for their specific faith.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 12:37:16 PM »
Having debated with Christians for so long, they wouldn't believe you. I know you're looking to hear what a Christian would say if the bible was disproven; but their delusion would never allow them to accept this. You could take them back in time and show them the universe forming, evolution happening, Jesus not performing miracles,...they would not accept it. All these things would be the work of the devil, they would trust their 'faith' in god and ignore what they were shown.

'If I could disprove the bible 100%'?; It already has been disproven as the work of a god, yet still the delusion continues...
If your god cannot physically appear before us, then it is imaginary.

It's as simple as that.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 12:40:30 PM »
Continuing this question to believers, and something that's been asked many times; what would convince you that this god doesn't exist?
If your god cannot physically appear before us, then it is imaginary.

It's as simple as that.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 01:06:35 PM »
If you proved 100% that the bible was made up to trick people, some of them would just switch to a different religion. And when you disproved that religion, some would switch to a new one. And so on. 

That is how the Mormons, the JW's, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Moonies, the Hari Krishnas, Scientology, Rastafarians, Buddhism and even Islam got started. Protestants did not dump religion or god when they realized that  the Catholics were wrong.[1] They just decided that the Catholics were not doing Christianity correctly. The Lutherans got it right. Oh, wait, they didn't. The Anglicans, no the Baptists, no the Anabaptists, whoever the hell they were, no, the Presbyterians, no, the Methodists, no the Congregationalists, no, the Pentecostals. No, it was the Coptics all along. Or maybe the Calvinists.

No, it is actually the tiny storefront church I passed today that has a sign out front reading, "Our God is bigger". No lie. It is between an auto body shop and a store that sells cut rate mattresses. Across from a vacant lot. And they have the right take on life, the universe, and everything. Their god is bigger than anyone else's. Clearly, they have it all figured out.

By showing the holes in an existing religion, you only create an opening for a new one that has its own holes. For some reason, most people don't see this.

I swear, one day, when I am tired of working for a living, I am going to follow my daddy's footsteps into the family con artist business and start a religion.[2] Because, clearly, you can fool most of the people, most of the time. Just look at skeptic, PB, Brando, Jst and even OCG. There's money to be made, fleecing the sheeple.
 1. That would be like dumping sex entirely because you don't like the reverse cowboy position while being restrained with duct tape. I did not see that movie, BTW.
 2. Jag and Astreja will join me as my sacred prophetesses. One and jaimehlers will maintain our web presence. Nam will be our studly manservant/bodyguard and epidemic can sweep the temple and keep up the grounds. We will get rich, rich, rich. :angel:
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Nam

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 02:11:45 PM »
Well in my hypothetical they are not discarded books but rather recently discovered books with names dates and verifiable contemporary validation from unbiased sources.

So...start in fiction and end in fiction? Gotcha.

Quote
These books detail how they are going to pull the wool over peoples eyes.   I am just saying that virtually perfect proof is raised that indicates the books followed were fabricated with intent to deceive.

That could be shown with non-hypothetical books of the same genre.

Quote
Now that the bible in all its incarnations is proven absolutely false.  What would this do to a Christian's faith.

Nothing. Faith isn't based in evidence. It's sole ideal is little to no evidence. Or just none.

Quote
Would they still believe in a god just not know what its properties were?  Would they continue to practice their faith as it was prescribed in these false texts?  Would they inherently know of heaven, hell, sin, and other?

Yes. They always set their own perimeter of what their religion is or isn't. They just seek for a foundation. Thus, Christianity is the foundation.

Quote
Former Christian Atheists essentially are in this situation,  the bible holds no water, do I have any reason to believe in God or gods?  We feel that the bible, lacks coherent thought, the imperfection of the bible, contradiction, and apparent pantheistic roots of the bible are apparent (completely invalidating the bible.)

Quote
I am just curious as to what this would do to a Christian.  Absent the bible what do they feel is compelling evidence for their specific faith.

Nothing.

-Nam

"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 02:48:48 PM »
Don't we get Catholics coming here telling us that the bible does not really matter? It is just a book and god is not in a book, they say. God is the Church and the Church is the people. Open the door and look at the steeple. (That seems to nimbly sidestep the whole point of god, if all you need is the people, but hey, I'm just an arrogant angry atheist. What do I know?) So, take away the bible and you can still have Christianity, churches, the pope, the priests, and so on.[1]

IIRC, this was the response to a question about people isolated on an island without any religious teachings, and how would they learn about Christianity and the one true god (or Islam or whatever religion). Of course in reality, they would never hear of Christianity (or Islam or whatever religion) and would develop their own set of supernatural beliefs, as has happened countless times all over the world. Or they would have no supernatural beliefs or any gods, as has happened a few times.

But there is no way any isolated group on some island would stumble upon any already existing religion on their own. Nobody has ever found their one true religion being already practiced by some isolated island group. "Wow, will ya look at that! These island savages have a Catholic Church, complete with crucifixes and statues of Mary and Jesus made out of coconuts and bamboo. And here is the bible, written in their primitive tongue on scraps of bark. They are doing communion with palm wine and wafers of pounded taro root. Look over there, they each have a Christmas tree and  decorations on their huts-- aww, there's Santa in his sleigh, wearing a grass skirt. How cute."

Nope, never happens. If gods could travel you would not need human missionaries, would you? If your church needs human messengers to spread the word, what is god for? That right there should be evidence that no religion is in actual contact with any supernatural gods.  Since supernatural gods can do anything, they should at least be able to swim.

As arrogant angry atheist Penn Jillette said, if you destroy all information about any religion (say, about Rastafarianism) you will never get that same religion appearing on the earth again. How could it, absent the set of historical, geographical and cultural circumstances that produced it in the first place? Even religions that we know existed--like those practiced by native groups who are no longer around-- cannot be brought back because hardly anyone knows what the exact beliefs and practices were nowadays.

Seems strange, but gods die off when the people who believe in them die off.
 1. They don't tell us where these people would have gotten their information about Jesus, etc, absent the writings that would end up in the bible. Divine revelations from god to a few chosen people, I suppose. Which would eventually have to be written down, which would end up becoming a bible all over again, right?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline lectricpharaoh

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 04:05:34 PM »
Well in my hypothetical they are not discarded books but rather recently discovered books with names dates and verifiable contemporary validation from unbiased sources.
Your books are rejected, because..  y'know...  Satan.
The Bible is one of the select few books that is wholly deserving of being burned.
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Offline wright

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 04:08:46 PM »
Aside from the massive historical and ideological commitment to Christianity, evidence of the sort the OP describes would be up against institutions like the Catholic Church. Now there's a juggernaut that's been putting down competition for centuries, even if they have started losing ground in the last dozen or so decades.

If the Catholic clergy were convinced this new discovery was a real threat, you'd see serious effort expended to discredit it and its discoverers. They can't declare inquisitions and holy wars by themselves any more, but I bet they'd do anything and everything short of that.

I swear, one day, when I am tired of working for a living, I am going to follow my daddy's footsteps into the family con artist business and start a religion.[1] Because, clearly, you can fool most of the people, most of the time. Just look at skeptic, PB, Brando, Jst and even OCG. There's money to be made, fleecing the sheeple.
 1. Jag and Astreja will join me as my sacred prophetesses. One and jaimehlers will maintain our web presence. Nam will be our studly manservant/bodyguard and epidemic can sweep the temple and keep up the grounds. We will get rich, rich, rich. :angel:

Dibs on the landscaping, if I'm not too old by then![2] I want in on any religion that has our Forum Trinity of UnGoddesses involved!
 2. I'll send you a resume, I gots experience!
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 05:14:44 PM »
I find a couple of lost books that are contemporary to the creation of the parts of the bible, and these books are not contested as being valid.  In these books they describe the inner workings of the creation of the bible by men for political and selfish reasons.  The Torah/old Testament , new Testament both have incontrovertible document trail that indicates unambiguously that these books were purely the works of men.

What would the root of your basis of belief in god and his wants, needs and desires be based?

It has already happened. Earlier texts than the bible at Ugarit describing the Canaanite religion show where the religious ideas of the OT really came from. The god of IsraEL was EL who merged with Yahweh of Judah and took attributes of some of the other gods too. The stories of Moses and David were part of the ideological rewriting of history after Yahweh became the national god, to enhance a sense of national identity. Identity was especially important during the exile in Babylon, but Babylonian creation myths were still used in Genesis. The exodus was more about exile in Babylon, than about the distant past. The stories of exodus contain peoples and cultures which did not exist in the past. The kingdom of David is a fiction which never existed. There were hardly any people living in the area of Jerusalem and Judah at that time of David although he was a real person, he was probably little more than a village chief.

For the NT Saul in his letters admits that he was making up new stuff and he did not care what James and the original disciples thought. The letter of James which is probably from a supporter of James refutes Saul's ideas. Acts of the Apostles is later propaganda, after they had died, which tries to pretend they all agreed. In any case they all expected god to show up immediately and overthrow the Roman Empire so they were proved wrong.


Watch the excuses from theists.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2015, 09:31:16 AM »
I find a couple of lost books that are contemporary to the creation of the parts of the bible, and these books are not contested as being valid.  In these books they describe the inner workings of the creation of the bible by men for political and selfish reasons.  The Torah/old Testament , new Testament both have incontrovertible document trail that indicates unambiguously that these books were purely the works of men.

What would the root of your basis of belief in god and his wants, needs and desires be based?

It has already happened. Earlier texts than the bible at Ugarit describing the Canaanite religion show where the religious ideas of the OT really came from. The god of IsraEL was EL who merged with Yahweh of Judah and took attributes of some of the other gods too. The stories of Moses and David were part of the ideological rewriting of history after Yahweh became the national god, to enhance a sense of national identity. Identity was especially important during the exile in Babylon, but Babylonian creation myths were still used in Genesis. The exodus was more about exile in Babylon, than about the distant past. The stories of exodus contain peoples and cultures which did not exist in the past. The kingdom of David is a fiction which never existed. There were hardly any people living in the area of Jerusalem and Judah at that time of David although he was a real person, he was probably little more than a village chief.

For the NT Saul in his letters admits that he was making up new stuff and he did not care what James and the original disciples thought. The letter of James which is probably from a supporter of James refutes Saul's ideas. Acts of the Apostles is later propaganda, after they had died, which tries to pretend they all agreed. In any case they all expected god to show up immediately and overthrow the Roman Empire so they were proved wrong.


Watch the excuses from theists.


Yeah,  Most of that is based upon deep analysis of ancient documents with somewhat subjective analysis.  There are assumptions and such involved in the objectives and intentions of the writers.  My magic books are not subjective, they state in no uncertain terms the process by which the religion was formed and discusses the how and why each phrase was used. 

It has an articles of confederation as it were to back up the thinking between each amendment with discussion between the founders. 
Excerpt from the Minutes of the meetings held by early cult leaders.
Quote from: articles of christianity
Peter -As you all know one of our founding most charismatic members died today at the hands of the Romans,  I feel we should use this death to our benefit.  Since a lot of people have heard of Jesus and so many followed him unquestionably I think we can begin to expand on his legend.  Lets begin adding miracles to his legend.  What do you think of attributing healing powers to him.  We can talk about a guy in another town and tell people that he died and Jesus raised him from the dead. 

Matthew,  That sounds great, we can give this guy a common name so that it is difficult to verify which guy was raised and pick an obscure town that few people are likely to visit.  We will be careful not to use this little miracle in and around his neighborhood.  Thereby creating a lack of ability to debunk. 

Peter- Great!   What do you think about him walking on water?

Matthew- Oh come on who is gonna believe that crap.

Luke - Matthew I think it can work.   We will add it to later revisions when it can no longer be debunked.

Peter- Ok I guess I will allow majority rule in this case but put me down as against it.


Along with the words of this lost text we find that a couple of people who left the group because they felt morally wrong about creating this religion.  Describe these early church meetings and detail some of the topics discussed and their apparent disgust.

There are also people who write of this new up and coming cult and knew Lazarus and knew that he died was not resurrected and that the story was a full out fabrication. 


All documents are deemed to be accurate and corroborative.


As you all know one of our members

Offline Graybeard

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 12:01:30 PM »
The Torah/old Testament , new Testament both have incontrovertible document trail that indicates unambiguously that these books were purely the works of men.

What would the root of your basis of belief in god and his wants, needs and desires be based?
Divine inspiration is often mistaken for "I think X, therefore X is good for everyone."

I suppose that the person about to write X down in a Holy book will ask himself, "Now, is that just me, or is it the Voice of The Holy One?"

He will pause a moment, and then, with satisfaction, say, "The Voice of The Holy One." and write it down for all to follow and obey.

To be a leader, you have to (i) believe you have the answer to everything (ii) promise everyone that only you can protect them from some threat (real or imagined) (iii) promise a better life (iv) claim to be inspired by a deity/the sages of old/honesty, etc. (v) are more powerful/wise/thoughtful, etc. than those who oppose you.

So please send large checks to me because I have the best solutions to your problems; I can protect you against the powers of organised religion, big business, big pharma, big government; increase your salary and the size of everything you own, because I will operate the honest works of 1000s of scientists and rational thinkers, as opposed to others who simply speak empty words and are superstitious fools reliant upon luck and fate.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline kcrady

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 02:48:04 PM »
I find a couple of lost books that are contemporary to the creation of the parts of the bible, and these books are not contested as being valid.  In these books they describe the inner workings of the creation of the bible by men for political and selfish reasons.  The Torah/old Testament , new Testament both have incontrovertible document trail that indicates unambiguously that these books were purely the works of men.

I'm in the "it's already happened" camp.  It's obvious if you just look, that Matthew and Luke copied big chunks of Mark verbatim, then added and/or edited in their own bits for purely literary and/or ideological reasons, rather than "I'm just Recording The Facts as accurately as possible!"  Gospel of John--same thing, only more so ("I think this story would work so much better if I put the cleansing the Temple at the start of Jesus' ministry instead of the end!  Oh, and I think I'll skip the stupid magic birth narratives and just come right out and SAY he's the incarnation of the Celestial Logos in a paragraph at the beginning instead of expecting my readers to figure it out.").  The NT is stuffed to the rafters with promises that the Apocalypse is coming Real Soon Now (so don't bother getting married or planning for the future or any of that "normal life" bullshit)...all written 2,000 years ago.  The OT is so blatantly wrong that the early Christians almost managed to dump it (the Marcionites, the Valentinians, and the Gnostics), and even the most fundamentalist Christians pretty much treat it as a spider-webby attic full of grandma's old junk, ignoring its contents except for Genesis and those two passages in Leviticus about The Gays.

The bottom line:  Except for a very tiny handful that even Christians would dismiss as insane, Christians know better than to treat the Bible as if it were actually true.  Oh they'll say they think it's true and go to great lengths to uphold that claim in front of people like us, but what they won't do (again, with the exception of a tiny, crazy minority) is actually act as if they're living in a Biblical universe.  They know better.

"...I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

Hahaha, oooh, that's such a great joke!  So funny!

Never mind that it's the exact opposite moral of pretty much all the most famous Bible stories.  The tale of Joshua at the battle of Jericho does not end with Joshua & Co. getting their asses handed to them after making fools of themselves marching 'round and 'round the city tooting on horns, followed by Yahweh telling Joshua in Heaven, "But I sent you two siege engines and a battering ram!"  Not once does Jesus tell his disciples anything along the lines of "'Moving mountains with prayer?!'  Hahahahaha, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!  No, you should keep your miracle-expectations limited to...ahem...simple things, like finding a great spot to tie up your donkey when you're in town, or nice stuff people can do for you that you can give Yahweh credit for."

The vast, vast majority of Christians don't believe the Bible the same way we believe things like evolution and the efficacy of medical science.  They know better.  Even the ones who profess the loudest to belieeeeve every jot and tittle.  They're just very, very good at the Art of Cognitive Dissonance.  So, no set of ancient texts, no matter how well-validated, could ever make a dent in Christians' profession of belief, because the whole fucking Universe can't put a dent in it either. 

Christianity is not about "what's true" in reality, even though many Christians go around talking as if they think it is.  Just look at any "sophisticated" or "progressive' Christian, like Bishop Shelby Spong, Fred Clark, or our own Old Church Guy.  They'll come right out and agree with us on pretty much everything factual...and yet...and yet...they'll still cling to membership in Team Jesus.  It's just that, instead of ignoring things like the Andromeda Galaxy and the geologic column, they'll ignore the contents and claims of the Bible and the whole of Christian history, and pretend that Christianity has always been about peace, love, open-mindedness, tolerance, and national health care.

Christianity is a giant LARP.

That is, a "Live-Action Role Play."  In case anyone hasn't heard of LARPing, it's a kind of role-playing game where players dress up as their D&D type characters and act out their adventures.  They use padded latex swords, spears, etc. to safely play out melee combat, and throw little bean bags to represent casting spells, and so on.  "I am the wise Elf-mage Althedriel!"  "I am the holy cleric Ethelfrith!"  "I am Ragah, the fearsome and mighty Half-Orc warrior!" and so on.  "I am a born-again child of the One, True, almighty God of the Universe, engaged in the great spiritual struggle against the forces of Satanic evil for the eternal fate of humankind, and my destiny is eternal happiness in Heaven!"

Should someone show up at a LARP event in jeans and T-shirt, and go around telling the LARP'ers that their costumes suck, that, no, they're not really wizards and warriors and dragon-slayers, the response would be...pretty much what we get with Christians.  The main difference being, that LARP'ers are more honest with themselves and others about what they're doing.  And they have better costumes (well, except for the guys at the Vatican; their outfits are pretty badass, especially the Swiss Guards).

What makes the Christianity LARP (and other religions) different from the regular kind is that one of the rules of the game is that you never stop playing.  That's one of its main selling points: even when you're at work or whatever, you're still (ostensibly) playing your part in the epic story of the wars of Yahweh, Satan, angels and demons.  You don't ever have to hang up your costume and "go back to normal life."  Instead, the Christianity Story animates your life and gives you a sense of meaning and purpose that you wouldn't have otherwise. 

The downside: as with any LARP, it's harder to play and really get into the story when there are people around you who aren't playing.  They pull you out of the story, like people talking in a movie theater.  That's why the Dungeon Master's Guide has provisions for talking other people into joining the game (it's one of the main scoring opportunities), and if necessary and possible, brow-beating them into it with brute force.  This saddles the believer with the burden of having to profess belief in things they know aren't real (or in the case of the "sophisticated/progressive" believers, pretend that the Dungeon Master's Guide isn't chock full of ridiculous and malevolent stuff players are supposed to be pretending is true).

What would the root of your basis of belief in god and his wants, needs and desires be based?

For most believers: SPAG (Self-Projection As God), which is pretty much what they use anyway, to decide which parts of the Bible count and what parts can be ignored.

There are some believers who have had, and perhaps continue to have, mystical experiences or states of consciousness that seem (at least to them) to represent genuine contact with divine or supernatural entities.  These are the kind of people who get religions started (when it's not an outright con artist like Joseph Smith), but whom the religion stamps out as soon as it gets organized and assembles a proper clergy and set of doctrines.  These people are (mostly?) an exception to the LARP explanation I gave above, as they (seem to) have experiences which, for them, provide justification for their beliefs.  We atheists would question the validity of their experiences (to say the least), but at least they have something other than old books written by other people centuries ago as a basis for their concepts of deities and Their wants, needs, and desires.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline wright

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2015, 01:38:50 AM »
^^^Religious belief as a LARP: wonderful comparison. As a roleplayer myself, I quite agree. I even have some nominally Catholic friends who used to LARP; I don't think they'd appreciate the parallel, unfortunately.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: If I could disprove the bible 100%
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2015, 08:33:37 AM »
Fear

That's their problem.  They probably have a calcified pineal gland too. 
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