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Offline Nam

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Hey Christians
« on: January 27, 2015, 12:24:38 AM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 01:01:50 AM »
No. You've struck a real blow against Christianity here today. Church billboards will be flying at half mast tomorrow. You will be forever part of atheist folklore, and Zondervan will offer you millions in hush money.


It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Fiji

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 01:45:00 AM »
Zondervan? Really? There's a christian publishing company called Zondervan? Sheesh[1] ... and people get on my case for bringing up Dick Swaab.
 1. nifty[1] word that one
 1. nifty is of course also quite nifty as words go
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Offline eh!

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 02:08:18 AM »
it's all true nam, you just have to read it with your heart and not your eyes.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 02:57:12 AM »
Zondervan? Really? There's a christian publishing company called Zondervan? Sheesh[1] ... and people get on my case for bringing up Dick Swaab.
 1. nifty[1] word that one
 1. nifty is of course also quite nifty as words go

Confused - does Zondervan translate to something naughty in Dutch? Or Flemish? or soccer Hooliganese?
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Fiji

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 03:04:46 AM »
It would translate to withoutfrom, so, not really. Just felt like it sounded like a bad guy from an old movie or something.
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And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 08:16:17 AM »
No. You've struck a real blow against Christianity here today. Church billboards will be flying at half mast tomorrow. You will be forever part of atheist folklore, and Zondervan will offer you millions in hush money.




Minus the sarcasm: if you can't prove anything in the Bible as true without the Bible -- then how can any of it be true?

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline stuffin

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 10:35:46 AM »
No. You've struck a real blow against Christianity here today. Church billboards will be flying at half mast tomorrow. You will be forever part of atheist folklore, and Zondervan will offer you millions in hush money.

Sounds  like a cop out statement. 

R U scared of what U might  find?
The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong

Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong, So Wrong.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2015, 04:52:41 PM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam

Since you are discounting geography, would you give me an example of what you are asking about?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 05:20:39 PM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam

Since you are discounting geography, would you give me an example of what you are asking about?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Anything in the Bible excluding places. The reason why I exclude places is because anyone can read any book today (or back then) and real places can be in the stories, or what not but that doesn't mean the stories are true.

As an example: Harry Potter. England is in Harry Potter. Since England is in Harry Potter that must mean Harry Potter is true.

I've received such arguments from some Christians before. Since there are places in the Bible that existed 2,000+ years ago that still exist today (cities, rivers, mountains Egypt and its Pyramids etc.,) that proves the Bible is true.

So, without the geography, can any Christian prove, without the Bible or books etc., that reference the Bible (using the Bible to prove the Bible) that anything else in the Bible is true?

Magic Miles gave up. Figured he'd at least bring up the Flood but, guess not.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2015, 05:29:17 PM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam


Anything in the Bible excluding places. The reason why I exclude places is because anyone can read any book today (or back then) and real places can be in the stories, or what not but that doesn't mean the stories are true.

As an example: Harry Potter. England is in Harry Potter. Since England is in Harry Potter that must mean Harry Potter is true.

I've received such arguments from some Christians before. Since there are places in the Bible that existed 2,000+ years ago that still exist today (cities, rivers, mountains Egypt and its Pyramids etc.,) that proves the Bible is true.

So, without the geography, can any Christian prove, without the Bible or books etc., that reference the Bible (using the Bible to prove the Bible) that anything else in the Bible is true?

Magic Miles gave up. Figured he'd at least bring up the Flood but, guess not.

-Nam

But you are also excluding history?  For example, the Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians all existed and each played a role in the history of Israel as well as the Romans. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Since you are discounting geography, would you give me an example of what you are asking about?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:21:17 AM by jetson »
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2015, 05:35:41 PM »
Copy/paste your comment, delete from where it is, and place it where it should be.

I'm not discounting anything or anyone except those who use the Bible to prove the Bible.

If I took a photograph of a waterfall does that really prove that waterfall exists?

Is there not a way for me to prove it without the picture?

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline OccamsRazor

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2015, 06:28:39 PM »
So, would you like evidence of the garden of Eden, for example? Evidence of the parting of the Red Sea? Evidence of Jews in captivity in Egypt? Wandering the desert for 40 years?

Is that what you are looking for?

Honestly, the total lack of evidence for these thing OUGHT to be a serious blow against Christianity AND Judaism.
"Oh wearisome condition of humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity;
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
Richard Fulke Greville

Offline OccamsRazor

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2015, 06:30:56 PM »
OH! How about some nails from Jesus' cross?? They are all over the place, from what I can tell. I probably have a few in the garage, right now.
"Oh wearisome condition of humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity;
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
Richard Fulke Greville

Offline Fiji

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 04:03:02 AM »
Honestly, the total lack of evidence for these thing OUGHT to be a serious blow against Christianity AND Judaism.

And Islam ...
Ever read the quran? If Muhammed is the Captain America of the quran than Mozes is certainly the Thor[1] And Egypt has been under direct control of Muslims for almost a century now. In that time, they uncovered ... bugger all.
Same with Israel, though not quite as long. The Israeli government would LOOOOOOOOOOVE to find the remains of Sodom or something like that. Think back to archeology in the 19th century. Science wasn't exactly a prime concern. You went for the big sexy finds. King Tut was a jackpot. But how much jackpottier would proof of any part of exodus have been?
"We found hieroglyphs depicting the plagues!!!"
Hell, a pile of shit in the Sinai that showed a large group of people wandered by there a long while ago would have been something.

And what do we have? A whole lot of nothing.
 1. they both have the rocking beard, so ...
2 Interwebs 7:42
And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

Offline eh!

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 04:05:37 AM »
there are 500 verified eye witnesses....ask dennis.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Fiji

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 04:08:06 AM »
500 eye witnesses of Ancient Hebrew taking a shit in the desert? Those guys were freaky!
2 Interwebs 7:42
And in the seventh year, thou shalt cast out the Nam from thine assembly for he haveth a potty mouth.

Offline eh!

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 04:22:15 AM »
500 eye witnesses of Ancient Hebrew taking a shit in the desert? Those guys were freaky!

well that's one interpretation, there are others.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline KingofBashan

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 12:43:43 PM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam

Hey everybody!

Can you prove everything you know to be true, or most of what you know is true, without consulting the source of that knowledge?

I'm not speaking about things we can look at today. And, using books that reference your source of knowledge is the same as using your source of knowledge.


Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 02:14:24 PM »
If everything in the Bible is true than it should be able to be proven without the Bible.

Example: the flood. The Bible states a world wide flood happened and only one family survived. Without using the Bible or anything in reference to the Bible: prove it.

Another example: apparently the Hebrews built some of the pyramids. If that is true then it should be quite simple to prove that, no?

Jesus was born to a virgin. Such a miraculous event happening should be able to be proven, right?

How do hundreds or thousands of people get fed with one loaf of bread? And if such an event happened wouldn't be recorded outside the Bible?

Was the tower of Babel taller than a pyramid? Maybe it fell based on incompetence rather than god did it? Can it be proven such a building existed other than in the Bible or the Tanakh/Torah?

If none of the events or things in the Bible can be proven without the Bible then is it really true?

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline eh!

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 06:03:33 PM »
someone does not get the concepts of criteria for historical facts, multiple independent sources, authenticity requirements, forgery, bias.......


eg one book says there was a global flood. 
not mentioned in any other records or books.
there is no physical evidence of such a catastrophic event.
event  goes unnoticed by every other continuous culture from before during and after such event.
all the contradictions it creates in the number and distribution of observed species.
the feasibility of specific events actually occurring like gathering, accommodating, feeding animals in the ark....etc, etc etc 

then one is justified in questioning both the source and the event.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 06:05:28 PM by eh! »
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Online jetson

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2015, 06:07:55 PM »
One simple question:

Can you prove everything in the Bible is true, or most of what is in the Bible is true, without the Bible?

I'm not speaking about places. And, using books that reference the Bible is the same as using the Bible.

-Nam

Hey everybody!

Can you prove everything you know to be true, or most of what you know is true, without consulting the source of that knowledge?

I'm not speaking about things we can look at today. And, using books that reference your source of knowledge is the same as using your source of knowledge.

There are science books that explain current understanding of scientific studies. But the books themselves are not the proof. It is the studies, the actual phenomenon scrutinized and run through the scientific method that allow the books to be written based on the best understanding at the time of the study. Scientific knowledge must be falsifiable by definition, otherwise it is pure conjecture, made up crap.

We must use a process, the scientific method, otherwise we are all subject to anything anyone wants to claim, with no way of verifying it. So, the Bible is nothing more than a series of writings from ancient times. The book, and the words it contains may, or may not be true or valid. The point is that the book by itself cannot be the source of proof. The act of writing something down is not enough.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2015, 07:46:42 PM »
Copy/paste your comment, delete from where it is, and place it where it should be.

I'm not discounting anything or anyone except those who use the Bible to prove the Bible.

If I took a photograph of a waterfall does that really prove that waterfall exists?

Is there not a way for me to prove it without the picture?

-Nam

So history is definitely out of your quest for proof?

If so, why?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2015, 09:13:04 PM »
You're not getting this. Why?

Here's a different question:

How do we know that Socrates existed?

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 09:22:50 PM »
You're not getting this. Why?

Here's a different question:

How do we know that Socrates existed?

-Nam

Actually, I don't know that Socrates existed since, as I recall, Plato wrote about him.  I don't believe Socrates left any documents of his own.  I believe Socrates existed but I don't know that there is irrefutable proof of his existence.

How am I not getting this?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline OccamsRazor

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2015, 10:05:59 PM »
Maybe "how do we know that George Washington existed" would be an easier illustration.
"Oh wearisome condition of humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity;
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
Richard Fulke Greville

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2015, 11:24:46 PM »
You're not getting this. Why?

Here's a different question:

How do we know that Socrates existed?

-Nam

Actually, I don't know that Socrates existed since, as I recall, Plato wrote about him.  I don't believe Socrates left any documents of his own.  I believe Socrates existed but I don't know that there is irrefutable proof of his existence.

How am I not getting this?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy


You believe he existed based on what? Just Plato, or something else? Do you put all your evidence in Plato and faith that he didn't make him up or do you take stock in something other than Plato?

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline Nam

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2015, 11:25:40 PM »
Maybe "how do we know that George Washington existed" would be an easier illustration.


No.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline eh!

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Re: Hey Christians
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2015, 12:08:39 AM »
how do we know our great grandparents existed.

how do we know that yesterday existed or 2 minutes ago existed.

when god made adam he was made as a man not a foetus that grew into a man, so apparently the yahew trickster can implant history into the universe even if it does not have one.

cool huh.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?