Author Topic: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t  (Read 4841 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« on: January 26, 2015, 12:41:27 PM »
As you all know I don't believe Jesus was a god.  I thought maybe you could convince me otherwise in this thread. 

Please share the prophecies that replicate the life of Jesus.

In Daniel chapter 9 he speaks of a messiah.  Did the jews not believe that the Persian king was "that" messiah for rebuilding the Jewish temple?

Are they not still waiting for the Messiah that will demolish their enemies and crush all other religions?

Here's some info from wiki:

Christianity[edit]

The Last Judgment, by Jean Cousin the Younger (c. late 16th century)
Main article: Christ
See also: Jesus in Christianity, Redeemer (Christianity) and Jesus and messianic prophecy
The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos (???????), anglicized as Christ, and Christians commonly refer to Jesus as either the "Christ" or the "Messiah." Christians believe the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled in the mission, death, and resurrection of Jesus and that he will return to fulfill the rest of Messianic prophecy.

The majority of historical and mainline Christian theologies consider Jesus to be the Son of God and God the Son, a concept of the Messiah fundamentally different from the Jewish and Islamic concepts. In each of the four New Testament Gospels, the only literal anointing of Jesus is conducted by a woman. In the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and John, this anointing occurs in Bethany, outside Jerusalem. In the Gospel of Luke, the anointing scene takes place at an indeterminate location, but context suggests it to be in Galilee.

Main articles: Mahdi, Muhammad al-Mahdi and Jesus in Islam
The Quran identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Masih), referring to him as "Isa".[16] Jesus is one of the most important prophets in the Islamic tradition, as well as Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Muhammed.[Quran 33:7][Quran 42:13-14][Quran 57:26][16] In Islamic theology, Jesus is the only prophet and messenger of end times. Muslims have great respect for Jesus, but do not see him as both the complete prophecy and God. Prophecy in a human form is adequate in Islam, but does not represent the true powers of God as Jesus does in Christianity.[17]

The Quran states that Isa, the Son of Mariam (Arabic: Isa ibn Maryam), is the Messiah and Prophet sent to the Children of Israel.[Quran 3:45] The birth of Isa is described Quran sura 19 verses 1–33,[Quran 19:1-33] and sura 4 verse 171 explicitly states Isa as the Son of Mariam.[Quran 4:171] Muslims believe Isa is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Masih ad-Dajjal (false Messiah),[7] a figure similar to the Antichrist in Christianity, who will emerge shortly before Yawm al-Qiy?mah ("the Day of Resurrection"). After he has destroyed al-Dajjal, his final task will be to become leader of the Muslims. Isa will unify the Muslim Ummah (the followers of Islam) under the common purpose of worshipping Allah alone in pure Islam, thereby ending divisions and deviations by adherents. Mainstream Muslims believe that at that time Isa will dispel Christian and Jewish claims about him.

A hadith in Abu Dawud (37:4310) says:

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Isa. He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height & reddish dusky complexion, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops of water were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill the swine, and put an end to war (in another Tradition, there is the word Jizyah instead of Harb (war), meaning that he will abolish jizyah); God will perish all religions except Islam. He [Isa] will destroy the Antichrist who will live on the earth for forty days and then he will die. The Muslims will pray behind him.

Both Sunni[16] and Shia Muslims agree[18] that al-Mahdi will arrive first, and after him, Isa. Isa will proclaim al-Mahdi as the Islamic community leader. A war will be fought—the Dajjal against alMahdi and Isa. This war will mark the approach of the coming of the Last Day. After Isa slays alDajj?l at the Gate of Lud, he will bear witness and reveal that Islam is indeed the true and last word from God to humanity as Yusuf Ali's translation reads: "And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them."[Quran 4:159] A hadith in Sahih Bukhari (Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:55:658) says:

Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mariam descends among you and your Imam is from among you."
The Quran refutes the crucifixion of Jesus,[16] claiming that he was neither killed nor crucified.[Quran 4:157] The Quran also emphasizes the difference between the Allah—the God in Islam and the Messiah: "Those who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary, are unbelievers. The Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord... unbelievers too are those who have said that Allah is the third of three... the Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger before whom other Messengers had gone; and his mother was a godly woman."[Quran 5:72-77  ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

When you mess with Islam and their god they have no choice but to retaliate!!!

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 06:37:41 AM »
It's not like I'm asking you to prove god exists.  I'm just asking for the prophecy that describes Jesus as the Messiah?

It's so weird how the jews made up this god and they are still waiting for their messiah. 

Is this not why Jesus' own disciples did not believe he was the ONE?

Do you think Joel Osteen may be the anti-christ? :-\  Seems to me according to Islam Christianity is an anti-christ.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 06:49:05 AM »
I saw on some message board, someone went through all of the requirements of "the messiah" as told by the OT and showed how jesus only met like 3 (maybe, if you give him the benefit of the doubt). And there were several several prophecies. Its the grandest example of Christians trying to shoehorn their beliefs into a story it doesnt fit into.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 09:25:31 AM »
That's probably why they are not answering this thread.  Not even the "remaining" OCG.

I don't know about you but I find that signature arrogant.  It's like haha I'm still a Christian no matter how irrational that is I remain OCG.

I think he is held to very low standards here.  That is not his fault.  I like the guy.  What I don't like is all the brown nosing back and forth.  It's like gag me with a spoon already.

If there was 1 thing I would expect a Christian to be able to do is explain and give the scriptures that prophesied Jesus. :o

Gawd I kind of figured that's how it was.  I'll have more atheist answer this thread than theist. Good morning btw.

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 04:49:13 PM »
That's probably why they are not answering this thread.  Not even the "remaining" OCG.

I don't know about you but I find that signature arrogant.  It's like haha I'm still a Christian no matter how irrational that is I remain OCG.

I think he is held to very low standards here.  That is not his fault.  I like the guy.  What I don't like is all the brown nosing back and forth.  It's like gag me with a spoon already.

If there was 1 thing I would expect a Christian to be able to do is explain and give the scriptures that prophesied Jesus. :o

Gawd I kind of figured that's how it was.  I'll have more atheist answer this thread than theist. Good morning btw.

As my Jewish cousin put it when she converted from a Southern Baptist to Judaism, she talked with a Rabbi who said simply that he looked around and nothing much had changed in 2,000 years.  That made sense to her so she converted. 

I don't think there are irrefutable arguments or verses to support or deny Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.  Like any aspect of religion, it is a matter of faith.

Arrogantly,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 08:14:39 PM »

As my Jewish cousin put it when she converted from a Southern Baptist to Judaism, she talked with a Rabbi who said simply that he looked around and nothing much had changed in 2,000 years.  That made sense to her so she converted. 

I don't think there are irrefutable arguments or verses to support or deny Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.  Like any aspect of religion, it is a matter of faith.

If there are no verses to support the claim then doesn't that deny the claim in and of itself? :? 

I am not the one claiming Jesus was the messiah.  I am just asking for collaborating prophecy Old Church Guy.  You are making the posit claim. 

You are making Jesus that nasty old murderer from the past that Moses called god.  That flooded and drowned babies by the millions.  That allowed incest and rape of women and slavery. 
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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 12:23:58 PM »
After 2000 years, colleges and scholars there is no biblical proof that Jesus was the messiah written in "jewish" laws/religion. 

Did Moses and his people have other laws that were not from their religion or was religion the only LAW?

You see I really admire Jesus, the man, that is why I am defending his honor.  When they turned him into a god they turned him into FEAR. 

Religion has diced Jesus into over 4000 pieces.  If that ain't worse than a crucifixion I don't know what is. :o
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 05:23:57 PM »

As my Jewish cousin put it when she converted from a Southern Baptist to Judaism, she talked with a Rabbi who said simply that he looked around and nothing much had changed in 2,000 years.  That made sense to her so she converted. 

I don't think there are irrefutable arguments or verses to support or deny Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.  Like any aspect of religion, it is a matter of faith.

If there are no verses to support the claim then doesn't that deny the claim in and of itself? :? 

I am not the one claiming Jesus was the messiah.  I am just asking for collaborating prophecy Old Church Guy.  You are making the posit claim. 

You are making Jesus that nasty old murderer from the past that Moses called god.  That flooded and drowned babies by the millions.  That allowed incest and rape of women and slavery.

Please note the response pertained to irrefutable arguments or verses.  There are plenty of arguments and verses which can be used for both major views.  So, to me, it is up to the individual to decide. 

Personally, I am fine with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.  But I don't feel obligated to condemn or chastise anyone who disagrees as I cannot prove that belief. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 06:43:11 PM »
As my Jewish cousin put it when she converted from a Southern Baptist to Judaism, she talked with a Rabbi who said simply that he looked around and nothing much had changed in 2,000 years.  That made sense to her so she converted. 

I don't think there are irrefutable arguments or verses to support or deny Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.  Like any aspect of religion, it is a matter of faith.

If there are no verses to support the claim then doesn't that deny the claim in and of itself? :? 

I am not the one claiming Jesus was the messiah.  I am just asking for collaborating prophecy Old Church Guy.  You are making the posit claim. 

You are making Jesus that nasty old murderer from the past that Moses called god.  That flooded and drowned babies by the millions.  That allowed incest and rape of women and slavery.

Please note the response pertained to irrefutable arguments or verses.  There are plenty of arguments and verses which can be used for both major views.  So, to me, it is up to the individual to decide. 

Personally, I am fine with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.  But I don't feel obligated to condemn or chastise anyone who disagrees as I cannot prove that belief. 

You don't feel the need to correct skep when he starts gay bashing? 

You're not here to convert atheist you are here to change the minds of other theists.  That's a noble gesture.   

Doesn't Jesus say somewhere to be "perfect with your love"?

Will you please answer this question?  If giving up Jesus the messiah and respecting the messenger would cause peace between the Middle east and the rest of the world would you do it?

Myself, I would give up my beliefs for it.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 09:05:28 PM »
You don't feel the need to correct skep when he starts gay bashing? 

You're not here to convert atheist you are here to change the minds of other theists.  That's a noble gesture.   

Doesn't Jesus say somewhere to be "perfect with your love"?

Will you please answer this question?  If giving up Jesus the messiah and respecting the messenger would cause peace between the Middle east and the rest of the world would you do it?

Myself, I would give up my beliefs for it.

I have no idea.  I would like to think I would be brave enough to make such a gesture but I am not any good at predicting what I most likely would do in a "what if' scenario.  Too many variables; not enough constants.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 10:08:09 PM »

^^^AGAIN, with the "what if" and too many variables ..... When you believe in the god that primitive people invented before you were born; weird but very large Shield you raise but I know you hold the sword behind it. You believe in god and I question it....

Do you see the trend on this site or do we really have to invent and evolve our knowledge to show us the data only to have still do what you do best?

Believe in a bible god!? No variables  or what ifs to consider here!... Wow


^^^ The young will become the old but not with your same rigid explanations that work or worked for you for years. Times are changing or dare I say "evolving".
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2015, 10:29:00 PM »

The real bummer, OCG is you're smart!

Rather than teaching differential calculus which isn't ambiguous but very complex and will assist in solving some of  the great analytical problems in flow and create the most fuel efficient cars, commercial jets, renewable energy and military prowess for our push for god, freedom, and oil....

You teach young minds that learning isn't really noble. Being noble is producing the neutralizing comments and old-school ideas to not promote innovative ideas, but actually use language as to why we should still be playing with rocks and thanking your bible god for each breathe.

It pains me to say this, but I'll be damned if we have to watch ISIS who truly believe in the god they believe in and behead people to show the world their belief and no-holds bar communication of it.

Here in America, they are much more passive aggressive and really don't put themselves in the game they believe. You like to behead people over time metaphorically speaking, taking away critical thinking in a child is the passive aggressive, Christian way to do it.

It's interesting to watch us fight the quicker way to kill a human mind.....
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Offline dennis

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 03:44:20 AM »
@Junebug

I am not sure why you ask the question? I guess you have something in mind. To save you clicking on a link, I copied it all for you


Here is a list:

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”



You have tried to engage me in a debate and I am ducking it to be perfectly frank. I do not understand what you think or believe and half the time I can't follow your arguments sufficiently for me to respond.

I am not suggesting there is something 'wrong' with your arguments, just that I don't understand it them. So sorry about avoiding the debate, but I am being perfectly honest with you.

The thread is a case in point. You could Google the question and find the list yourself, but there is obviously something else that bugs you and I can't understand what?


If you believe in nothing for sure, you are liable to believe anything.

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 04:01:51 AM »
dennis geez you believe some rubbish, do you live in a nut house, yr capable if believing in pure bollocks, that's kinda nuts?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 10:23:10 AM »
@Junebug

I am not sure why you ask the question? I guess you have something in mind. To save you clicking on a link, I copied it all for you


Here is a list:

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


You have tried to engage me in a debate and I am ducking it to be perfectly frank. I do not understand what you think or believe and half the time I can't follow your arguments sufficiently for me to respond.

I am not suggesting there is something 'wrong' with your arguments, just that I don't understand it them. So sorry about avoiding the debate, but I am being perfectly honest with you.

The thread is a case in point. You could Google the question and find the list yourself, but there is obviously something else that bugs you and I can't understand what?

In Matthew they are quoting prophecy, it is not a prophecy of itself.

This is what I got for Isaiah 9:6

Luke 12:49-53King James Version (KJV)

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Nope not the Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 does not match up. 

Isaiah 43; Read the whole chapter.  I especially liked vs 20. The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen

I have a dragon tattoo on my hip.  :)

This is a scorning from god to Israel not a prophecy of Jesus.

hebrews 1 Read the whole chapter. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Their enemy is all other religions!  I found vs 2 interesting that the Son is called an Heir? :? 

I still don't see that as a prophecy that matches the life of Jesus. 

That's all I have time for now.  Mason's calling.  That's my grandson. 

Thanks for taking the time to post this for me.  You're welcome to go to my profile if you want to know me.  I have good days and bad days just like anybody else.








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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 10:36:06 AM »
@Junebug

I am not sure why you ask the question? I guess you have something in mind. To save you clicking on a link, I copied it all for you


Here is a list:

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”



You have tried to engage me in a debate and I am ducking it to be perfectly frank. I do not understand what you think or believe and half the time I can't follow your arguments sufficiently for me to respond.

I am not suggesting there is something 'wrong' with your arguments, just that I don't understand it them. So sorry about avoiding the debate, but I am being perfectly honest with you.

The thread is a case in point. You could Google the question and find the list yourself, but there is obviously something else that bugs you and I can't understand what?
I can't wait 'til Graybeard gets a hold of your list . . .

Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 11:11:15 AM »
Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

Read the whole book.  Who is Melchizedek?  The King and High Priest of Salem that blessed Abram in the 14th chapter of Genesis.  In the Hebrew bible he is only mentioned again in Psalms 110 "The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever after the manner of Melchizedek.'

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus in the book of Hebrews is called High Priest not a messiah.  It doesn't mention anywhere that he would be born of a virgin in Nazarene on any specific day.

The New Testament verses are not prophecies of Jesus. 

I find it very interesting that we don't know more about this high priest that is compared to Jesus.   :?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek

That convert scripture ain't gonna work on me dennis.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 02:14:53 PM »

I can't wait 'til Graybeard gets a hold of your list . . .

GB and the others here don't believe Jesus existed.  I do.  I don't believe he was a god of any kind.  I think he was a great teacher that died because of religion.  I think religion/Christianity is a disgrace to the "MAN" Jesus of Nazareth. 

There was a battle between the Gnostics and the Christians and this is why.  Once the church started killing them for blaspheme the Gospels were lost/hidden.  The greatest lie ever told began.

The Gnostics loved Jesus.  The church had not yet included any gospels to the OT.  Out of a few dozen gospels only four were chosen.  Even the Gospel of St. Peter was left out.  The Gnostics used those gospels that were rejected from the canon we know today as the bible. 

The truth always wins!!!
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2015, 06:12:38 PM »
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)

I am tired of so-called Christians trotting out Isaiah. The version you gave of Isaiah is a late addition - after Christ had been executed.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8237-isaiah-ascension-of#anchor5
Quote
Ch. vi.-xi.—Vision of Isaiah:

In the twentieth year of Hezekiah Isaiah has a vision, which he tells before the king and his assembly. Isaiah is taken by an angel through the seven heavens; in the seventh he beholds the departed righteous, among them Abel and Enoch, and finally God Himself. Then he sees the whole history of Jesus. In ch. xi. 41-43, an editorial addition, he is told that "on account of these visions and prophecies Sammael (Satan) sawed in sunder Isaiah the son of Amos, the prophet, by the hand of Manasseh."

Composition and Date.

The most important critical inquiries into the structure of this book are those of Dillmann and Charles. Dillmann's conclusions, accepted by many leading scholars, are as follows:
(1) The Martyrdom is contained in ch. ii. 1-iii. 12, v. 2-14.
(2) The Vision (Christian) is contained in ch. vi. 1-xi. 1, 23-40.
(3) They were united by a Christian redactor, who added ch. i. (except verses 3 and 4a) and xi. 42-43.
(4) Later additions are: ch. i. 3-4a; iii. 13-v. 1; v. 15-16; xi. 2-22, 41.


These results were somewhat modified by Charles, who gives the following analysis:
(1) The Martyrdom consists of: i. 1-2a, 6b-13a; ii. 1-iii. 12; v. 1b-14.
(2) Ch. iii. 13b-iv. 18 are to be counted as a separate work, added by the first editor of the entire work, probably before the "Greek Legend" and the Latin translation were written.
(3) The Vision comprises ch. vi. 1-xi. 40, ch. xi. 2-22 being thus an integral part of this section.
(4) Editorial additions are: ch. i. 2b-6a, 13b; ii. 9; iii. 13a; iv. 1a, 19-22; v. 1a, 15-16; xi. 41-43. With regard to ch. i. Dillmann's view seems preferable, while Charles's arguments concerning the Testament of Hezekiah are very convincing.

From internal evidence, as well as from quotations in writings of the second and following centuries, it is safe to conclude that the three parts of the book were written during the first century C. E.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline dennis

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 07:06:42 PM »
Nice of you to pass it on.

But why would you add a 'so-called' Christian epithet?
I believe that a real  is someone who has studied and is conversant with his subject at least overall and in some areas in detail.

People are rightly termed "a so-called professor/doctor/train driver/salesman/police officer, etc." where it is apparent that they have not reached the required standard to claim membership of that group, but rather spout arrant nonsense that comes straight from their own, erroneous opinions.

You have set up a strawman by saying
Quote from: dennis
So is every scientist who does not know everything about their subject matter a so-called scientist? Is every artist who cannot flawlessly recall the history of their art perfectly a 'so-called' artist?

You would do better to compare a scientist in a specific field with a Christian (a specific religion) I expect a Bio-chemist who belongs to the sect of botanists to know how flowers are pollinated, and I expect Christians to know the Bible (not a particularly difficult book) and to get it right instead of making it up as they go along.

A further point would be that your example of an artist is irrelevant: art is not reproducible or repeatable and never perfect, whereas, Christians claim that their book is the absolute truth - if it is, then it is incumbent upon them to get it right. Get it wrong and you have endangered your own, and perhaps someone else's immortal soul. If an artist gets it wrong, no harm is done.

Making it up as they go along does seem to be an all too common trait in the religious. They, like a scientist/professor/doctor/train driver/salesman/police officer, etc., should take the time to get it right.


However, I am disappointed by your paranoia.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 12:13:39 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2015, 07:27:11 AM »
@dennis,

Why didn't you respond to me?  I went through your list and none of them prophecy Jesus except Hebrews and there he is called a High Priest.

Ha plainly says he is not come to bring peace but to divide.  Very successful at the dividing part. 

He calls the prophecies "THEIR" law. 
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Offline dennis

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2015, 06:35:45 PM »
@JB

I wasn't 100% sure what you wanted.

From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')
You specifically asked about Jesus being the Messiah?

SO
I gave you the list of verses where Jesus where Jesus was equated to God.

If I understood you wrong, is THIS what you wanted?
http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

If that is wrong too, then just ask me the question in one line what I actulaly need to respond to and I will try.

D
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2015, 07:09:24 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 07:11:22 PM by lotanddaughters »
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2015, 07:16:42 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.
Pretty poor attempt to define what he is trying to prove as "true" not only is it a poor attempt, as usual, it's dishonest.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2015, 07:50:08 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.
Pretty poor attempt to define what he is trying to prove as "true" not only is it a poor attempt, as usual, it's dishonest.

Are you talking to me?
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline dennis

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2015, 07:59:29 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.

In Christianity it is generally accepted that to 'prophesy'  is either:
Foretelling
Foretelling is saying what the future will be or hold before it happens.

Forthtelling
Forthtelling is proclaiming truth.

In the Biblical context even 'foretelling' (as the prophets did on a few occasions) had to be the truth, since prophets are 'messengers of God'. And naturally, the message of God (assuming the biblical context) is the truth.

Quite amazing that no one has ever said that here, but rest assured, I did not make that up - it is stock standard doctrine.



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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2015, 08:00:09 PM »
Pretty poor attempt to define what he is trying to prove as "true" not only is it a poor attempt, as usual, it's dishonest.

As usual?

Dishonest?

Poor attempt?


Bring it, Motherfucker!
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2015, 08:01:02 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.
Pretty poor attempt to define what he is trying to prove as "true" not only is it a poor attempt, as usual, it's dishonest.

Are you talking to me?

 channeling De Niro from Taxi Driver?
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Offline dennis

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Re: Who is the "Messiah" OCG & t
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2015, 08:04:13 PM »
From my perspective:
To 'prophecy' is to 'tell the truth' (may be present or may be future')

In all my years, I've heard many different words that have multiple meanings. When properly used within a certain context, I've never had any trouble understanding the meaning of these words, even if their definition drastically changes from context to context. Not once in my life have I ever heard someone use the word "prophecy" in a sentence when they could have substituted the word "prophecy" for the phrase "tell the truth".

Never.
Pretty poor attempt to define what he is trying to prove as "true" not only is it a poor attempt, as usual, it's dishonest.

Seriously????

@JB asked a question.
There wasn't much of a response.
I am not sure I understand the question
I say so, and give an attempt to answer while seeking clarification in case I am wrong.
She tells me I am wrong.
I say I still don't understand and offer an alternative response

Now you tell me I am dishonest?

FUCK YOU.

If you believe in nothing for sure, you are liable to believe anything.