Author Topic: The Central Message of the Bible  (Read 11026 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2015, 12:23:54 PM »
Bumping a question for Skep as he seems to have missed it.....

We just find it amusing that you claim to know how to get to heaven, but don't know if you will get to heaven.
You seem to know everything the god wants up until the point where you would look bad, then you don't know.

People who accept the Lord and love their neighbor will go to Heaven. But, I can't say for certainty who goes to Heaven. I'm not in everyone's life monitoring their every move 24/7.

Yep, that's all quite fair and true.  Just because someone knows the rules of the game, does not mean they can say what the outcome will be for someone playing the game in another room.  Like you say, Skep, you would need to both know all the rules, AND know every detail of someone's life to know if they will be going to heaven.  We also can't tell the future, so we can only know what a persons position is at the present moment in time (subject to the two other caveats above).

So Skep: if you died this moment, would YOU go to heaven?

I have no idea if I would go to Heaven. I certainly hope so but I can't be certain.

Cue the "He doesn't know! LOL!" responses. But I will point out once again that it always seems fine and dandy for atheists not to know everything.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2015, 12:37:34 PM »
Cue the "He doesn't know! LOL!" responses.

I think you'd get more flak for saying, "yes, definitely."  It is more arrogant and goes against what the bible says.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2015, 11:06:04 AM »
I have no idea if I would go to Heaven. I certainly hope so but I can't be certain.

Can you explain why you are not certain?

Is it because you think you may have done something wrong?
Is it because you are unsure of all the rules?
Or is it because you cannot guarantee the rules will be applied as stated?

Because I can't figure out why you can't be certain.

If I know all the rules of a game, and I know how well I have done so far, and I know that the rules will be applied as stated.....then there would be no issue at all in me saying "yes, I have done enough to win", or "no, I have not done enough".  The only way in which I would be UNsure of whether I am currently winning, is if I were not completely sure about the answer to one of those three questions above.

So can you let me know WHY you are unsure of how you have been doing to this point in time please Skep?  I haven't got any issue with you saying "I don't know".  But I DO need to know WHY you don't know - its a pretty crucial question, I feel.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2015, 11:47:58 AM »
Likewise, in a class 50% or 60% or 70% is passing, and the teacher tells you at the start what you have to do to achieve that goal.  And a good teacher will keep to what they say and apply the standards they set out.

If you want to use the tired parent analogy, most parents let kids know what is acceptable, what is not and what the various consequences are. And a good parent will keep to what they say and apply the standards they set out.

If a teacher was randomly assigning passing and failing grades or a parent randomly punished and rewarded their kids, that would be a bad example.

Why is it that god, with all the knowledge and power in the universe, cannot even set up a system that is straightforward enough so you know whether not you get the reward he promised? We even hear that some atheists will go to heaven, and some Christians will not, but nobody knows for sure. What's up with that?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2015, 08:50:13 PM »
I have no idea if I would go to Heaven. I certainly hope so but I can't be certain.

Can you explain why you are not certain?

Is it because you think you may have done something wrong?
Is it because you are unsure of all the rules?
Or is it because you cannot guarantee the rules will be applied as stated?

Because I can't figure out why you can't be certain.

If I know all the rules of a game, and I know how well I have done so far, and I know that the rules will be applied as stated.....then there would be no issue at all in me saying "yes, I have done enough to win", or "no, I have not done enough".  The only way in which I would be UNsure of whether I am currently winning, is if I were not completely sure about the answer to one of those three questions above.

So can you let me know WHY you are unsure of how you have been doing to this point in time please Skep?  I haven't got any issue with you saying "I don't know".  But I DO need to know WHY you don't know - its a pretty crucial question, I feel.
is the reason he can't say.....is that he does not know what sins are ok with God,and what ones will get him hell?  The theist knows sin is evil,but chooses to do it. If you buy the free will argument ,and that Jesus absolves you of all sin,how could you not know?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:52:09 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2015, 09:26:10 PM »
^^^Because Christians know that their god is really Allah, a dictator who decides who goes to heaven or hell on his whim.  That is why they say that Hitler might be in heaven, if he muttered the right words to Jesus as he died, while Gandhi might be in hell for staying a Hindu. Or maybe vice versa. There is no rhyme or reason, no way to know for sure if the really good thing you did will counteract the tiny bad thought or if it will be the other way around.

Maybe you have been destined for hell ever since you hit your sister with a GI Joe when you were a mean little bastard of ten. You never asked for forgiveness, never said you were sorry, and have forgotten you did it. Now, nothing you ever do will change your hell bound destination, not even donating a kidney to a stranger. Or maybe you are a serial rapist who just left a victim beaten and bleeding in an alleyway, but you smiled at an old homeless man and gave him a dollar. He was Jesus in disguise, and he forgave you all your sins, so now you are on the fast track to the good place.

Whatever god does is right and just. Like Stalin or Mao or the Inquisition. No wonder they say they fear god. &)
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline eh!

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2015, 05:14:47 AM »
or maybe you are an adult male who beat a kid with a full blown punch to the chest for asking you tough questions about god, the kid is prolly going to hell for being smart and the child abuser is going to heaven because he asked for forgiveness.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2015, 02:53:30 AM »
I am going to go ahead and post the PM responses now - I'd still be interested in more statements as to what the central message of the bible is, but I don't think the PM middle-man construct is necessary any longer.  Feel free to just post directly in the thread at this point.

Quote from: magicmiles
Very brief summary:



* there is one God, who has always been. God is comprised of father son and Holy Spirit.
* God created the world and everthing and everyone in it
* The world was created for man to rule over, under Gods authority
* God gave humans rules to live by, we broke them from day one and continue to do so
* God promised a saviour
* we are incapable of being restored to God by following the law
* Jesus, Gods son, is the promised saviour
* Jesus lived a perfect life
* Jesus died and was resurrected
*No one comes to God but through Jesus
* Jesus will return as Gods judge

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
The central theme of the Bible is the establishment of God's kingdom in the hands of the messiah.

Quote from: BibleStudent
The central message of the Bible is that all have fallen short of the glory of God yet He has made a way for us to become righteous by way of salvation in Jesus Christ.

The following are responses received from those that identify as atheists:

Quote from: eh!
old testament - you must obey

NT - you are born a sinner and are going to help by default; but if you do certain things a certain way you might go to heaven,

assumptions; hell is bad, heaven is good, both exist.

Quote from: Tinyal
"Obey your betters or receive punishment. Do not question your betters.  Do not ask for reasons for any rules.  If you break God's rules you may very well be punished for Eternity."

Considering both old and new testaments, in sum total I strongly believe the above to be the bible's central, most-talked-about message.

Quote from: screwtape
Yo

the central message of the bible, as I discern it, is this:

People suck.  They are stupid, selfish chimps.

Sorry for my delay in getting back to this. I haven't read the whole thread-  has anyone specifically addressed the central message I gave? Anyome wamt to do so, or ask me about it?

It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2015, 05:03:26 AM »
Sorry for my delay in getting back to this. I haven't read the whole thread-  has anyone specifically addressed the central message I gave? Anyome want to do so, or ask me about it?
1.   There is one God, who has always been. -> Special pleading to avoid the “original cause” argument.
2.   God is comprised of father son and Holy Spirit. -> A theological error introduced by the errant [wiki]Comma Johanneum[/wiki] (see 6. below.)
3.   God created the world and everything and everyone in it -> Inaccuracies in the physical description of the world show that the alleged creator could not have done this.
4.   The world was created for man to rule over, under God’s authority -> Man arrived very late on earth.
5.   God gave humans rules to live by, we broke them from day one and continue to do so -> God gave an imperfect being a counsel of perfection: He cannot be surprised at the result.
6.   God promised a saviour -> This is not so. Yahweh was always consistent in saying that there was only Him and He did everything.
7.   We are incapable of being restored to God by following the law -> Do you mean that we are incapable of following the law? If so, see 5. above.
8.   Jesus, Gods son, is the promised saviour -> Jesus does not accord with the description of the Saviour
9.   Jesus lived a perfect life -> “a perfect life” had never been described or defined.
10.   Jesus died and was resurrected -> Ignoring the fact that Jesus’s existence is in question, Mark does not mention a Resurrection and the evidence for it is deeply flawed and inconsistent. Indeed, it appears that the Resurrection is an invention.
11.   No one comes to God but through Jesus -> This was said without any proof at all
12.   Jesus will return as Gods judge -> It is clear that Jesus’s words indicated a very short time to His return. It is now 2,000 years: I think we can give up. (See also “[wiki]Cargo Cult[/wiki]”)

At this stage, we can see that The Bible, as a whole, has no "Central Message". The OT is basically the Jewish myth of "how we got to this point[1] and why Yahweh is our god."

The NT is quite different, but is linked by words (fabricated) and interpretations (twisted) to the OT. The NT's "Central Message" is "be reasonable" but the NT is unnecessarily overlaid with myth, magic and superstition and a promise of "pie in the sky when you die."

The only "Central Message" is "If you pre-suppose god, this book gives an inconsistent opinion of what that god is like."
 1. pre-Jesus
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 05:08:08 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online jdawg70

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2015, 09:55:00 AM »
Sorry for my delay in getting back to this. I haven't read the whole thread-  has anyone specifically addressed the central message I gave? Anyome wamt to do so, or ask me about it?

I guess the obvious - do you still stand behind your statement that bible has a clear, central message?

For me...well, the central message of the bible as posted by other theists - I think there is room there to argue that differences are primarily due to either detail or semantics.  I suppose the question is: do you disagree with what anyone said?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline stuffin

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2015, 10:28:25 AM »
I always thought it was "Love your neighbor, unless your neighbor is the same sex as you."

I guess it is more complicated than that.

PART DUECE,  love thy neighbor as long as he is of the same tribe as you and worships the same god as you; And you have god'so blessing to kill  him if he refuses to do so.
The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong

Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong, So Wrong.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2015, 11:48:16 AM »
^^^And you can enslave him and his family regardless. Yep that about sums it up.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Online Jag

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2015, 01:44:29 PM »
Sure mm, I'll bite.

You say:  The world was created for man to rule over, under Gods authority

I ask: since you posit that the world was created for a purpose, and that humans ARE the point[1] - what is the purpose of the rest of the universe?
 1. an idea that has caused more harm that any other idiocy humans have ever dreamed up in our determination to see ourselves as "special" and above every other living thing
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Defiance

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2015, 08:09:48 PM »
Is this the wrong thread to ask for evidence?
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Online Jag

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2015, 09:28:02 PM »
^^^Only if you expect to actually get some.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2015, 09:52:13 AM »
has anyone specifically addressed the central message I gave?

You didn't really give a central message.  You gave about 6 of them burried in your 11 point reply.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2015, 09:58:52 AM »
Is this the wrong thread to ask for evidence?

I would say, it depends for what claim you are asking evidence.  Look at this thread as you would a lit class or a book club.  The question is, what is the central theme of the book.  So referencing the book to support or negate claims would be completely reasonable.  Demanding evidence that the book is an accurate reflection of reality is not.  We do not ask for evidence that beanstalk really existed when discussing whether Jack's burglary and murder of the giant were justifiable.  That would be a categorical error in the context of the original question.


What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2015, 10:20:39 AM »
My opinion on the subject is that the Bible is a collection of epic stories.  Therefore, there is no central message to the whole thing; each individual story has a central message.  It's like trying to ask what the central message of the Grimm Fairy Tales is, or what the central message of the collection of Greek or Indian stories is.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2015, 02:02:54 PM »
I still hold that the message of the bible can be summed up as: Obey god in all things.. or else.  You must love god unreservedly..or else.  He can tell if you're faking.  There is no free will: any free will in the bible is an illusion if it deviates from the given tenet.


I've always found the love part to be somewhat uncomfortable as a concept for me.  Rather akin to telling a slave that he must love his master even as he is beaten and forced to submit to the will of another.  Not only that, but the master KNOWS if he is just making the right sounds or truly believes it because he can read his mind and 'heart'.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2015, 04:30:49 PM »
^^^Obey me or suffer. Love me no matter what. Worship me or else. And even if you try to do all those things, it still may not be enough and I might just torture you forever anyway. No way for you to know.

That is manifestly not a loving god. At least, not the way any human being would act if they loved someone. And what other way can we define love, if not in a human way?

God love looks a lot like human hate.  :P
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Offline Defiance

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2015, 07:57:39 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Screwtape.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Online Jag

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2015, 10:10:28 PM »
Bump.

I don't want this to disappear without magicmiles having a chance to answer the questions he asked for.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2015, 11:02:33 PM »
I'll get to these, soon as I can. Too much for phone posting, I start back at work on Monday.
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2015, 06:30:07 AM »
I have no idea if I would go to Heaven. I certainly hope so but I can't be certain.

Can you explain why you are not certain?

Is it because you think you may have done something wrong?
Is it because you are unsure of all the rules?
Or is it because you cannot guarantee the rules will be applied as stated?

Because I can't figure out why you can't be certain.

Just a bump for Skep.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2015, 02:17:14 PM »
^^^Obey me or suffer. Love me no matter what. Worship me or else. And even if you try to do all those things, it still may not be enough and I might just torture you forever anyway. No way for you to know.

That is manifestly not a loving god. At least, not the way any human being would act if they loved someone. And what other way can we define love, if not in a human way?

God love looks a lot like human hate.  :P

I don't know about hate, but for sure looks like an abusive relationship.
Why does god do all this fucked up stuff?  He supposedly loves us so we must not be trying hard enough.  It's our fault.
It doesn't matter EVER what it is.. credit goes to god blame goes to the person. 

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #112 on: February 01, 2015, 11:51:30 PM »
Sorry for my delay in getting back to this. I haven't read the whole thread-  has anyone specifically addressed the central message I gave? Anyome want to do so, or ask me about it?
1.   There is one God, who has always been. -> Special pleading to avoid the “original cause” argument.

You are disputing the validity of the message, not whether it forms part of a central message (the purpose of the thread)


2.   God is comprised of father son and Holy Spirit. -> A theological error introduced by the errant [wiki]Comma Johanneum[/wiki] (see 6. below.)

alleged errant Comma. There are other passages which strongly suggest the trinity, not least of which being the "Let us" in Genesis.



3.   God created the world and everything and everyone in it -> Inaccuracies in the physical description of the world show that the alleged creator could not have done this.

as per my first point.



4.   The world was created for man to rule over, under God’s authority -> Man arrived very late on earth.

as per my first point.



5.   God gave humans rules to live by, we broke them from day one and continue to do so -> God gave an imperfect being a counsel of perfection: He cannot be surprised at the result.

as per my first point.



6.   God promised a saviour -> This is not so. Yahweh was always consistent in saying that there was only Him and He did everything.

God promises a saviour several times in the OT (starting immediately after He curses the serpent) and announces Jesus when John baptises Him in the Jordan.



7.   We are incapable of being restored to God by following the law -> Do you mean that we are incapable of following the law? If so, see 5. above.

my first point applies.



8.   Jesus, Gods son, is the promised saviour -> Jesus does not accord with the description of the Saviour

He most certainly does. Should I list the passages? I assume you know them.



9.   Jesus lived a perfect life -> “a perfect life” had never been described or defined.

I will need to look further at this. Bear with me.



10.   Jesus died and was resurrected -> Ignoring the fact that Jesus’s existence is in question, Mark does not mention a Resurrection and the evidence for it is deeply flawed and inconsistent. Indeed, it appears that the Resurrection is an invention.

It is clearly described by other gospel writers, and frequently referenced by Paul.

By the by, my church is currently doing a series focusing on Mark's gospel, and the story of Jesus as told by various people. Look at my weblink for details, if it interests you. Longinus is portrayed by yours truly.



11.   No one comes to God but through Jesus -> This was said without any proof at all 

But it is said nonetheless.



12.   Jesus will return as Gods judge -> It is clear that Jesus’s words indicated a very short time to His return. It is now 2,000 years: I think we can give up. (See also “[wiki]Cargo Cult[/wiki]”)

Once more disputing the truth of the message rather than the existence of it.



At this stage, we can see that The Bible, as a whole, has no "Central Message". The OT is basically the Jewish myth of "how we got to this point[1] and why Yahweh is our god."

The NT is quite different, but is linked by words (fabricated) and interpretations (twisted) to the OT. The NT's "Central Message" is "be reasonable" but the NT is unnecessarily overlaid with myth, magic and superstition and a promise of "pie in the sky when you die."

The only "Central Message" is "If you pre-suppose god, this book gives an inconsistent opinion of what that god is like."
 1. pre-Jesus

I don't think you have demonstrated that any of the components of the central message I listed are not in the bible, or that they do in fact form a central message.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 12:06:23 AM by magicmiles »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2015, 11:52:41 PM »
More responses in due course. Thanks.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2015, 11:49:58 AM »
With the exceptions of #6, 7, 8 and 9 above, MM makes some good points.[1] The central message of the bible does not have to be true, or make sense or be logical. It just has to be in the bible.

Preferably clearly stated and obvious in order to be a "central message." That "clearly stated and obvious" is the part that can be easily disputed. The existence of thousands of different versions and interpretations of what the central message is, as evidenced by the responses of Christians on this site, is case in point.

It is like those tests where they ask you what is the main point of the paragraph. If the paragraph is about why Florida is a great vacation spot, you would not expect that there would be lots of different interpretations of the main point: one person says the main point is that Florida is not on the moon; another says that the main point is that Europeans get more vacation days than people in the US, another says that the main point is that people should go to Las Vegas.

But that is exactly what happens with the bible. It is too long, too convoluted, too contradictory, too violent, too barbaric, and too mythical (lots of impossible magical stuff) to have any clear, straightforward positive messages that modern people can all agree on. That is why most people today ignore about 90% of what is in the bible (the begats, the dietary laws, the stonings of divorced people, how to arrange an altar, animal sacrifices, managing your slaves) and just follow the few parts they like or that their church emphasizes.

Throughout history, people have gone to war over the nature of Jesus (god? man? both?)  and over whether the bible should be translated into vernacular languages instead of Latin (like English or German). People have died because others thought that the stuff about witches was literal fact. Passages in the bible have been used to both support and to eradicate slavery. There are magical things (Noah's Ark, virgin birth, people reborn from the dead) assumed by many (but not all) Christians to be literal truth.  And so on.  We can't even get agreement on what is meant as real history, what is meant as metaphor and what is meant to be factual!

If ten people read the bible and ten different religions are the result, it is hard to argue that there is an agreed upon central message. Unless the Quakers, the Catholics, the JW's, the Southern Baptists, the Mormons and the Calvinists (each with differing emphasis, rules, practices, etc) are all interchangeable. I kinda doubt that members of those groups would say that it doesn't matter what church you attend, because all teach the central message of the bible.

Don't many Christian denominations say the others are false religions led by demons? And that there is only one correct way to read the bible? The way they do it?
 1. If the stuff about Jesus was clearly part of the central message, there would be no Jews, right?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: The Central Message of the Bible
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2015, 02:37:45 PM »
Very good observation that "Love God and love your neighbor" are the 2 most basic and fundamental things to do in life.

Some people love God and their neighbor. (Christians)

Some people love their neighbor and not God. (Atheists)

Some people love God and not their neighbor. (False Christians)

You can't have one or the other. It must be both. This is why atheists falsely assume that just being a good person will get you into Heaven.

If you want to know for sure who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, that is not something for me to decide. It can be unknown to us. Atheists seem to be content with saying "I don't know," yet when a theist says "I don't know," it is then used to ridicule the theist. I find that odd.


I like it when theists say, "I don't know".  I've complimented OCG for it many times.

Here's the issue.

You back up things that you claim to be 100% sure of with, "I don't know"  Those things are highly offensive and evil, like... I deserve to have my skin boiled off for not believing a man could magically transform water (Hydrogen and Oxygen) into wine which contains carbon and all kinds of other goodies.

If you want to say... "YRM, you're going to hell because you don't believe Jesus died and came back from the dead so Jehovah could have a blood sacrifice of himself, for himself, so he'd be able to show mercy and let us into a magical place called heaven!  I'm 100% positive of this!"

And I say... "Where is heaven?" 
(I don't know, maybe another dimension?)
"Why does an all powerful being require blood sacrifices in order to show forgiveness or mercy, why does he have that limitation if he's all powerful?"
(I don't know)
"God promises to answer prayer but he doesn't, why not?"
(Everyone else believes the wrong thing but me and my sect)
"Does he answer your prayers?"
(I dunno, not really, but I'm sure he'll fix everything in heaven)
"Why are you sure?"
(I dunno, it says in the Bible right?)
"How do you know the Bible is true?"
(I don't know... it's perfect isn't it?)
"God promises to answer prayer, but, doesn't.  God kills babies, etc."
(I dunno, he must have his reasons... plus those babies deserved it... doesn't every loving parent kill babies?)


You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.