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Offline Hermes

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GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« on: December 02, 2008, 12:31:59 PM »
GodIsImaginary.com is expanding
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=287

Quote
There is a new proof available at GodIsImaginary.com:


The goal is to add 10 new proofs over the next couple of weeks.

Do you have ideas for proofs you would like to see added (or existing proofs that you would like to see augmented or modified)? Please add them in the comments.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Idioteque

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 02:14:48 PM »
I wouldn't mind seeing something like "Look at those who oppose science"

You could show examples of how all those who oppose evolution, radiometric dating, etc. just try to find small holes in existing theories (which are usually answered by those theories anyway) without ever presenting any evidence for their own views. I don't know if this is really something that fits well with the other proofs, but it's an idea.
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Offline essgeeskee

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2008, 03:49:41 AM »
Awesome proof here! Awesome!
Quote
"Follow your intuition!"

Offline TheSkeptic

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2008, 06:43:23 AM »
[modbreak=Edited by Moderator_013]
Please ensure that posts are on topic.
[/modbreak]
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 04:55:03 AM by Moderator_013 »
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Offline JII

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 10:18:58 AM »
I would definitely like to see GII tackle Apostle Paul's "Ignorance". It is still, to me, one of the best indicators that the Bible is a fictional construct.

Offline Onesimus

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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 10:47:17 AM »
I would definitely like to see GII tackle Apostle Paul's "Ignorance". It is still, to me, one of the best indicators that the Bible is a fictional construct.

That it is.  But I see that issue as a second-year course, not the intro-level subject which tend to comprise the proofs.  It's only germane to those of us who at one point in our lives pored over Paul.  Still, if someone thinks they could do a good job of it, I'd love to see it.

Offline Introsis

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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 11:03:09 AM »
Ha, "proof with the Bible? Brilliant!" ~ Guiness
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Offline alejo_radical

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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 11:56:35 AM »
Hahaha this was an awesome read. But I can see some Christians saying what they always say.. ohh but that's the old testament, the new one is the truth now, blah, blah, blah. But then they use the old testament as a proof that Jesus was God.. :S I know, Christians are as dumb as it sounds.

Offline rigabear5

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 05:08:30 PM »
The 'proofs' seem well thought out articulated. That is not to say I agree, as they lack understanding of modern relgious beliefs.

It seems at points, the author(s) is grabbing at straws (Jesus was a Jerk? Watch the offering plate? :roll: ) and some of the Christian rationalisations  of the most fundamental 'proofs' are not properly refuted.

At best, it proves 'Don't take the Bible literally' which I doubt is any great revelation to most Christians. You even prove that in one of the 'proofs'.

Offline Hermes

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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 07:13:17 PM »
rigabear5, if you have more specific examples rather than general ones, please post them.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Pale Rider

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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 08:51:55 PM »
Thats some good stuff except that most if not all Christians will explain it away with 10,000 other verses even if it don't make sense.

Offline rigabear5

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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 02:00:50 AM »
rigabear5, if you have more specific examples rather than general ones, please post them.
Will do when I get more time (some time later tonight).

Offline rigabear5

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 12:18:18 PM »
The first two. I'll produce more in due course.

1)   Try praying.

Now, one of the Christian rationalizations that you pointed you was "When Jesus talked about 'moving a mountain', he was speaking metaphorically. When someone says, 'it is raining cats and dogs,' no one takes him literally. Jesus was using a figure of speech rather than speaking literally..." Now, this was refuted by saying along the lines of ‘he would say what he means’. Not so. He most definitely did not speak in normal ways to avoid confusion. For instance, he used parables as a method of teaching, as opposed to simply telling those around him the point he was getting at. Why? Because essentially it sorts ‘the wheat from the chaff’; those who were against his ideas would not understand them those who had their ‘mind open to Christ’ would understand what he was on about. Now this seems perfectly reasonable no? I mean, it has worked 2000 years on hasn’t it? Not taking the bible literally is widely accepted, one example of proof being in the attitude Parishioners had towards evolution (which the site so kindly provided). On top of this, God does not always have to answer ‘yes to prayers’. He may answer it in several ways. Go to this page: http://executableoutlines.com/pray/pray_08.htm: it will illustrate this point to you with scripture.

2)   Statistically analyze prayer

I will try and answer this in several ways. The first being basic economics. If everyone prays, and everyone gets what they want, then the world degenerates very quickly; a hyper inflation of sorts. A different take is the sincerity of prayer. In a scientific experiment this is hard to achieve, especially with an independent Church group. Next, God does not answer all prayers with a 'yes'(as outlined in the link).
Whoops missed the obvious one (which to be honest, I did not understand until today):
Quote RandomGuy
'If god healed amputees, you could see it. You could walk up to the new, fresh arms and legs and touch them. You would know for sure that god exists. Religion would become less of an act of faith and more of a test of eyesight. God, by the definition given in the Bible, MUST be unable to be proven. Otherwise, faith is not requirement, and by proving the existence of god, you have simultaneously disproved his omnipotence.' This addresses why God will never allow you to PROVE that God exists.

And atheists have a cunning way of avoiding the prayers he does answer. You could label many coincidences… however world is awash with these ‘coincidences’. There are instances of people being inexplicably cured. For example, at Lourdes (the site that a little girl claimed she saw the Virgin Mary) people go there and pray and ask for their illnesses to be cured. After many reports of healing a medical council was set up and since then, there have been 67 (around that number) ‘healings’ that have baffled the medical group and their peers and been labelled ‘miracles’. There are books written about such matters (Healing Miracles (1986) to name but one).
And what of the prayers that are not answered in the form of a miracle (there are various examples of answered prayers that do not break the laws of nature here http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2002/001/1.11.html )? Surely if God created this world then he is not above nudging it in the right direction. I am not suggesting that all coincidences and unlikely occurrences are God’s work; no; however I am suggesting that it is a logical fallacy to rule out all coincidences and unlikely occurrences as God’s work without any sort of grounds.

Enjoy. This is my take and I doubt I speak for the entire religious community (if such a thing is possible).

Thanks for taking the time to read them.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 04:54:42 PM by rigabear5 »

Offline Pale Rider

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 09:08:10 PM »
Thats all sweet but its just rationalizing it away.....no evidence that prayer works or is even heard.....

Offline rigabear5

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 02:36:07 AM »
Thats all sweet but its just rationalizing it away.....no evidence that prayer works or is even heard.....

At first, that is what I thought I was doing; 'rationalizing it away'. But looking over it I don't think I am anymore; I'm trying to refute the claims made at IsGodImaginary.com. I hope that came across. If not, I'll have to be more careful in the future.

I depends what you class as evidence. If you are looking for an experiment to prove that the prayers are answered (in any manner) then I have provided reasons which explain why it is not possible to 'create' an answered prayer in an experiment (at least; answered in any quantifiable way). I'd also argue, that if an experiment 'proved' that God was there; it would cause more harm than good. I doubt that is what God wants (not that I'd know, of course  ;D).

However you can draw evidence from the world around. People's testimonials (obviously you have to be careful here), bona fide miracles and such. One more famous example of prayer being answered in a literal sense:
It was January 1956; King had just been in jail and received a hate call. 'As he sat thinking of the dangers to his family, he had his first profound religious experience. As he wrote in Stride Toward Freedom:
    "At that moment I experienced the presence of the Divine as I had never experienced Him before. It seemed as though I could hear the quiet assurance of an inner voice saying: "Stand up for righteousness, stand up for truth; and God will be at your side forever." '

There is evidence. It's not all baloney.

Offline JII

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 04:43:02 AM »
The first two. I'll produce more in due course.

1)   Try praying.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI&feature=related[/youtube]


The first two. I'll produce more in due course.

2)   Statistically analyze prayer

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&eurl=http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm[/youtube]

Offline rigabear5

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 04:37:32 PM »
JesusIsImaginary:
I answered those arguments in my post. Please, if you disagree could you explain why with references to the posts, as opposed to simply spamming the very thing I refuted (or tried to at any rate).

Much of the video content is based on incorrect assumptions and interpretations and why not address the rationalizations (many of which are perfectly valid) as opposed to simply ignoring them. Those videos make me 'lol'. What a crock of self congratulatory ****.

(this post is going to bite me on the arse; but those videos really get under my skin)
 

Offline steward

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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 09:01:51 PM »
                    Proof #51 displays a level of spiritual ignorance I have rarely witnessed.
Although the author states half a dozen times that Elijah's professed intent is to prove Baal to be "imaginary",nowhere in the text of Elijah's challenge does he say that. This is why the #51 "proof" is void of any quote of Elijah doing so.

Elijah's actual challange is that Baal cannot bring fire:

                                "....and the God that answereth by FIRE,  let him be God."
                                                             ( 1 Kings 18:24)

You will notice the challenge by definition refers to the ABILITY of the contestants, not the EXISTANCE of said contestants.


God never warned the nation Israel not to have "imaginary" gods:
     
                                "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
                                         (Exodus 20:3)

He would not have insulted their intelligence like that. Proponents of "proof #51" notwithstanding.


The true spirit of Elijah's challange is best summed up by the saying "One with God is a majority"


God's marginalizing the spirit of darkness in this world is replete throughout the scripture. Such as when Moses was before Pharoh and threw his staff down and it turned into a snake. Pharoh's sorcerers then performed the same feat, only to witness Moses's snake devour their snake.
This was the same dark spirit of Baal working with Pharoh's sorcerers and God shut down, disabled,squelched,etc,etc, the spirit of darkness in this instance as well.

I am just thankful I did not have to suffer thru proof's # 1-50 of this same inches deep miles wide spiritual understanding.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:08:55 PM by steward »
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Offline rickymooston

Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 10:00:21 PM »
GodIsImaginary.com is expanding
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/blog/?p=287

Quote
There is a new proof available at GodIsImaginary.com:


The goal is to add 10 new proofs over the next couple of weeks.

Do you have ideas for proofs you would like to see added (or existing proofs that you would like to see augmented or modified)? Please add them in the comments.

Following DaveDave's suggestion why not merge GodIsImaginary with this site in some way?

This site should At LEAST be compatible with this one, in terms of aims and videos etc.

When I went to that site, it was too dead. Got bored.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Hermes

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 11:11:30 PM »
steward, you still don't get it ... but your formatting is almost sane.
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Offline godless1

Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 01:11:25 PM »
Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and a newly non-believer. GodIsImaginary.com is the site that led me to my new path. I am so grateful for this website.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could do a proof about the prophecies that christians say have been fulfilled from the bible. When something happens, I always here "the bible said that was going to happen" If there's a weird storm, I hear "the bible said there will be storms in diverse places" If people talk about peace, I hear " the bible said men all over the world would be talking about peace". I'm so sick of hearing this but do not know how to respond even though I know these things aren't happening to fulfill a bible prophecy.

Thanks for reading.  :)

Offline rigabear5

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 04:44:10 PM »
Hello Godless1! Welcome to the forum and non-belief.

The 'greatest optical illusion' video further up in this thread goes a way to illustrating the problem with labeling every little event a bible prophecy.

Mind you, approach things with a open and critical mind. Do not accept arguments that say God is imaginary simply because you are a non-believer. In a similar way, do not reject ideas that say God exists simply because you are a non-believer. For example, I'm an atheist, but that most definitely does not mean that I agree with or accept the ideas put forward at GodIsImaginary  ;) (EDIT: I need to be more clear it seems; I mean that I do not agree that they are irrefutable proofs that 'prove' God is imaginary. I think they are full of holes and that is what I am trying to address).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:12:14 AM by rigabear5 »

Offline godless1

Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 06:05:18 PM »
Thanks for the welcome riga,

I will watch the optical illusion video again.

I hear what you are saying. I accept arguments, not because I'm a non-believer but because it makes sense to me. If something doesn't make sense to me then I do not accept it. I research to see if I can better understand it.  :)

I'm mostly here to learn, research and better arm myself when my christian family goes on the "attack". lol
I don't bring up religion unless they do and they always do so I need to be prepared for those conversations. I study with my mom sometimes(she's a JW) just so she can get her time in and she always say I challenge her. I let people believe what they want and don't try to change them. If they ask me questions then I answer.

Offline godless1

Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 09:08:39 PM »
Hello Godless1! Welcome to the forum and non-belief.

The 'greatest optical illusion' video further up in this thread goes a way to illustrating the problem with labeling every little event a bible prophecy.

Mind you, approach things with a open and critical mind. Do not accept arguments that say God is imaginary simply because you are a non-believer. In a similar way, do not reject ideas that say God exists simply because you are a non-believer. For example, I'm an atheist, but that most definitely does not mean that I agree with or accept the ideas put forward at GodIsImaginary  ;)

Hi Riga,

This video didn't have anything to do with bible prophecies. It talks about prayer. I don't remember any proofs or videos dealing with bible prophecies. Let me know if there is one.

Thanks

Offline rigabear5

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 02:30:31 AM »
Hi Riga,

This video didn't have anything to do with bible prophecies. It talks about prayer. I don't remember any proofs or videos dealing with bible prophecies. Let me know if there is one.

Thanks
I didn't quite get what I was trying to say across (it usually takes me a few posts...), what I mean was that it explains the fallacy in saying that the bible prophecy (in terms of the video; the prayer to the milk jug) is the reason for the storms happening today or whatever (in terms of the video; the cheque arriving tomorrow or in a few weeks). In essence, it explains why me saying 'there will be war' today and war breaking  out in 2000 years time does not make my statement a prophecy (more of a, 'well no sh!t' statement).

Hope that helps more. By the way, you should pop into the 'Your First Independent Thoughts Against Religion' thread and tell us why you became a non-believer ;)

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Re: GodIsImaginary.com is expanding! Your help requested!
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2008, 05:04:45 AM »
bm
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline JII

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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 04:25:14 PM »
JesusIsImaginary:
I answered those arguments in my post. Please, if you disagree could you explain why with references to the posts, as opposed to simply spamming the very thing I refuted (or tried to at any rate).

Much of the video content is based on incorrect assumptions and interpretations and why not address the rationalizations (many of which are perfectly valid) as opposed to simply ignoring them. Those videos make me 'lol'. What a crock of self congratulatory ****.

(this post is going to bite me on the arse; but those videos really get under my skin)
 


It's "spamming" to embed a video that this forum is here to discuss? This forum is here to discuss the "Why Wont God Heal Amputees?" site and videos. That's why they called it the "Why Wont God Heal Amputees? Forum".

Could I "explain why with references to the posts"? Sure, one at a time. I'm slammed here with other stuff.

Quote
1)   Try praying.

Now, one of the Christian rationalizations that you pointed you was "When Jesus talked about 'moving a mountain', he was speaking metaphorically. When someone says, 'it is raining cats and dogs,' no one takes him literally. Jesus was using a figure of speech rather than speaking literally..." Now, this was refuted by saying along the lines of ‘he would say what he means’. Not so. He most definitely did not speak in normal ways to avoid confusion. For instance, he used parables as a method of teaching, as opposed to simply telling those around him the point he was getting at. Why? Because essentially it sorts ‘the wheat from the chaff’; those who were against his ideas would not understand them those who had their ‘mind open to Christ’ would understand what he was on about. Now this seems perfectly reasonable no? I mean, it has worked 2000 years on hasn’t it? Not taking the bible literally is widely accepted, one example of proof being in the attitude Parishioners had towards evolution (which the site so kindly provided). On top of this, God does not always have to answer ‘yes to prayers’. He may answer it in several ways.

You think that that, was a rational argument that made sense to intelligent human beings? The supposed Saviour of Mankind, is teaching the most important messages ever handed out to Mankind, about morality and behavior, and he decides to teach it using imagination filled parables, so that we Humans, wouldn't be confused? Pull the other leg.

It "has worked 2000 years"?  Yeah right. :D We can see you guys are all on the same page with your interpretation of Bibles, verses, miracles, prayers and such.

Quote
On top of this, God does not always have to answer ‘yes to prayers’. He may answer it in several ways.

You say that, almost as if you hadn't seen the "Yes, No, and Wait" references in the Illusion video.  You did watch those videos all the way through, didn't you, rigabear?  Something weird going on here. Hmmmmm? I don't think Mr. rigabear has done his homework. ;D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:50:40 AM by JesusIsImaginary »

Offline JII

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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 04:47:10 PM »
2)   Statistically analyze prayer

I will try and answer this in several ways. The first being basic economics. If everyone prays, and everyone gets what they want, then the world degenerates very quickly; a hyper inflation of sorts. A different take is the sincerity of prayer. In a scientific experiment this is hard to achieve, especially with an independent Church group. Next, God does not answer all prayers with a 'yes'(as outlined in the link).
Whoops missed the obvious one (which to be honest, I did not understand until today):
Quote RandomGuy
'If god healed amputees, you could see it. You could walk up to the new, fresh arms and legs and touch them. You would know for sure that god exists. Religion would become less of an act of faith and more of a test of eyesight. God, by the definition given in the Bible, MUST be unable to be proven. Otherwise, faith is not requirement, and by proving the existence of god, you have simultaneously disproved his omnipotence.' This addresses why God will never allow you to PROVE that God exists.

And atheists have a cunning way of avoiding the prayers he does answer. You could label many coincidences… however world is awash with these ‘coincidences’. There are instances of people being inexplicably cured. For example, at Lourdes (the site that a little girl claimed she saw the Virgin Mary) people go there and pray and ask for their illnesses to be cured. After many reports of healing a medical council was set up and since then, there have been 67 (around that number) ‘healings’ that have baffled the medical group and their peers and been labelled ‘miracles’. There are books written about such matters (Healing Miracles (1986) to name but one).
And what of the prayers that are not answered in the form of a miracle (there are various examples of answered prayers that do not break the laws of nature here http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2002/001/1.11.html )? Surely if God created this world then he is not above nudging it in the right direction. I am not suggesting that all coincidences and unlikely occurrences are God’s work; no; however I am suggesting that it is a logical fallacy to rule out all coincidences and unlikely occurrences as God’s work without any sort of grounds.

Lot's of juicy stuff here worth criticizing, but I'm going to concentrate on the part that I bolded, because I think its one of the goofiest Christian concepts - the "hiding god makes perfect sense" apologetic argument. Simply stated, "Are you out of your freaking minds?"

Offline rigabear5

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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 06:21:21 PM »
Lot's of juicy stuff here worth criticizing...
Bring it ;)

...but I'm going to concentrate on the part that I bolded, because I think its one of the goofiest Christian concepts - the "hiding god makes perfect sense" apologetic argument. Simply stated, "Are you out of your freaking minds?"
Thats not even a proper argument  :-\ Moar good stuff!