Author Topic: Jesus = Horus?  (Read 929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Idioteque

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Jesus = Horus?
« on: December 02, 2008, 01:31:54 AM »
I was blown away today when I found this excellent page that shows the similarities between the Jesus story and that of Horus, an Egyptian god that was worshiped centuries before the time of Jesus.

Check out the tables on this page and tell me what you think: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

I have seen things before that show Christianity's parallels to other older religions, but never anything this rock solid and clear. The two stories seem to be step by step identical. I think there are far too many similarities here to chalk it up to pure coincidence. How can this be explained other than by pure plagiarism? Perhaps God liked the story of Horus and plagiarized it himself.

My question is, how can a Christian see this page and not have their faith tremendously disturbed?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline Introsis

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • It is because it must.
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 01:52:09 AM »
I'm sure the response could be that different people interperated the story of Christ with different names, but this religion came before the birth of christianity... I never actually read anything about Horus before, this is really trippy, thanks for the link.
"In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule… long have I served as the gaurdian spirit… I am known as the Deku Tree." ~ Deku Tree, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Offline GotMooo

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 02:01:20 AM »
Yes, they do sound almost entirely identical.  It still just amazes me how unoriginal Christianity is and how few people realize that it stole most of it's material.

Quote
My question is, how can a Christian see this page and not have their faith tremendously disturbed?

A Christian who truly has it ingrained in them won't barely hesitate and is able to make rationalizations and think critically about other Gods.  It really is a psychological phenomenon how people can be so hypocritical here.  I suppose the emotional attachment to a religion can blind people to their own nonsense they believe in.  Bursting the bubble isn't usually the easiest, especially after years of thinking a certain way and living a certain way.

So basically..  Some will just not look at links like you posted to defend their fantasy world.  Others are curious enough to look because of their doubts.  And then the rest just like to argue.   ;D

Offline essgeeskee

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Karma: +1,000,000/-223
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 02:20:05 AM »
I was blown away today when I found this excellent page that shows the similarities between the Jesus story and that of Horus, an Egyptian god that was worshiped centuries before the time of Jesus.

Have you watched the Zeitgeist video yet? It talks a lot about this as well.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com
6/25/07
Quote
"Follow your intuition!"

Offline yoski

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 03:08:32 AM »
I was blown away today when I found this excellent page that shows the similarities between the Jesus story and that of Horus, an Egyptian god that was worshiped centuries before the time of Jesus.

Check out the tables on this page and tell me what you think: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

I have seen things before that show Christianity's parallels to other older religions, but never anything this rock solid and clear. The two stories seem to be step by step identical. I think there are far too many similarities here to chalk it up to pure coincidence. How can this be explained other than by pure plagiarism? Perhaps God liked the story of Horus and plagiarized it himself.

My question is, how can a Christian see this page and not have their faith tremendously disturbed?

Looking at similarities is fun and fine.  But looking at the differences makes all of the difference.
We can talk about how similar every human is to another, but  in comparing a human to a blade of grass we see something very different. 

Just because Jesus is more similar to Horus than Jesus is similar to Agloolik doesn't say anything.

Americans are more similar to each other than to other people of other nations.  Does that mean that you are your neighbor.

If someone combines two stories that you told them (i.e., I went to the store and bought a candy bar, and my neighbor went to the store and bought some bread)  into one story (i.e., I know this guy that went to the store and bought a candy bar and a loaf of bread), does that mean that the same person did both? and is therefore a story about only one person--not two?

Offline jedweber

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3791
  • Darwins +19/-0
  • Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 06:25:09 AM »
The two stories seem to be step by step identical.

That's because it's a slanted presentation which distorts and oversimplifies to exaggerate the similarities.  (When you see someone like Acharya S being used as a source, watch out.) This isn't to say that parallels don't exist, though.

Quote
I think there are far too many similarities here to chalk it up to pure coincidence. How can this be explained other than by pure plagiarism?

It can be explained by the concept of archetypes in religion and mythology. (See Joseph Campbell and other scholars of comparative mythology.)

Quote
A fundamental belief of Campbell's was that all spirituality is a search for the same basic, unknown force from which everything came, within which everything currently exists, and into which everything will return. This elemental force is ultimately “unknowable” because it exists before words and knowledge. Although this basic driving force cannot be expressed in words, spiritual rituals and stories refer to the force through the use of "metaphors" - these metaphors being the various stories, deities, and objects of spirituality we see in the world. ...
Accordingly, Campbell believed the religions of the world to be the various, culturally influenced “masks” of the same fundamental, transcendent truths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell


The same types of rituals and stories turn up over and over again across many religions. Someone once showed that Jesus fits many elements of a common "mythic hero" archetype - as does Horus, and Hercules, and many, many others.

I'm sure that religious faiths directly influence each other and elements are borrowed - especially when belief systems develop in the same geographic area, like the Mediterranean/Middle East. But I don't think it's so simple as the early Christians sitting down and plagiarizing the story of Horus.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 06:31:31 AM by jedweber »

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 06:41:50 AM »
That's because it's a slanted presentation which distorts and oversimplifies to exaggerate the similarities.  (When you see someone like Acharya S being used as a source, watch out.) This isn't to say that parallels don't exist, though.

Agreed.  Ouch.  That alone shoots this one in the head. 

(Jedweber: I agree with your concluding paragraphs as well.)
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 07:57:17 AM »
It is very simple.  Either God put this religion there to test us or the devil did it to trick us.  Same as those dinosaur bones and making the Earth look old.  Ha, I'm not falling for that!!! ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Noble

Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 08:20:04 AM »
so i guess if the story of horus was written as an eyewitness acount then that might sway me a little, but it's not.  and can they carbon date the origins of the whole story?  Were there prophecies that Horus was going to exist and be the messiah over a millineum before they say that he existed?  There are factors in the story of Jesus that aren't present in the story of horus...as a matter of fact, can you trace back the actual date that horus died?  So many questions...but nice try...i almost fell for this before...

Offline Cycle4Fun

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1371
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 09:52:02 AM »
so i guess if the story of horus was written as an eyewitness acount then that might sway me a little, but it's not.  and can they carbon date the origins of the whole story?  Were there prophecies that Horus was going to exist and be the messiah over a millineum before they say that he existed?  There are factors in the story of Jesus that aren't present in the story of horus...as a matter of fact, can you trace back the actual date that horus died?  So many questions...but nice try...i almost fell for this before...

Just because the gospels are written as if they were there does not mean the writers were there.  Historians know the writers of the gospels were not even born when Jesus died.

The prophecies were not fulfilled.  Read the bible, not just certain parts.

Can you confirm that Jesus actually existed without using your Bible?
How do you define soul?
"A baseless assertion by simple-minded, superstitious individuals"
   -Starstuff

Offline Idioteque

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2008, 10:43:31 AM »
Quote
Looking at similarities is fun and fine.  But looking at the differences makes all of the difference.
We can talk about how similar every human is to another, but  in comparing a human to a blade of grass we see something very different.

What are the important differences?

Quote
Just because Jesus is more similar to Horus than Jesus is similar to Agloolik doesn't say anything.
Americans are more similar to each other than to other people of other nations.  Does that mean that you are your neighbor.

True, but we're talking about the savior of humanity having an extremely similar story, down to his parents' names, as another savior of humanity that was worshiped centuries before.

Quote
If someone combines two stories that you told them (i.e., I went to the store and bought a candy bar, and my neighbor went to the store and bought some bread)  into one story (i.e., I know this guy that went to the store and bought a candy bar and a loaf of bread), does that mean that the same person did both? and is therefore a story about only one person--not two?

No, but it does hint at the fact that you did make up the story, and it is not a true historical account.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline Idioteque

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »
Quote
so i guess if the story of horus was written as an eyewitness acount then that might sway me a little, but it's not.  and can they carbon date the origins of the whole story?  Were there prophecies that Horus was going to exist and be the messiah over a millineum before they say that he existed?  There are factors in the story of Jesus that aren't present in the story of horus...as a matter of fact, can you trace back the actual date that horus died?  So many questions...but nice try...i almost fell for this before...

so i guess if the story of Jesus was written as an eyewitness acount then that might sway me a little, but it's not. 

Quote
and can they carbon date the origins of the whole story?
 

Yes, on Egyptian carvings

Quote
Were there prophecies that Horus was going to exist and be the messiah over a millineum before they say that he existed?
 

I don't know, but in Jesus' case, you can't even show that a real person actually did show up. That's what this thread is all about. It's easy to  have a prophecy and then make up a story about your prophecy coming true.

Quote
There are factors in the story of Jesus that aren't present in the story of horus...as a matter of fact, can you trace back the actual date that horus died?

Can you trace the date Jesus died without using a Bible?

Quote
So many questions...but nice try...i almost fell for this before...

That questions come right back, but you're okay with brushing them off.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline Idioteque

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »
Quote
That's because it's a slanted presentation which distorts and oversimplifies to exaggerate the similarities.  (When you see someone like Acharya S being used as a source, watch out.) This isn't to say that parallels don't exist, though.

In the page's defense, the only time information was being used from Acharya S was in the section at the bottom debating Horus' virgin birth. Look at the reference subscript numbers. Even though Acharya S had several references to virgin birth, they still stated it as a "maybe." I think someone did their research and knows the background of this author, posting her information with caution.

I can understand that the similarities are highlighted and differences ignored, but it seems like the stories line up in all of the most important parts. What important differences can you think of? I'm sure Jesus wasn't a direct copy and paste from Horus, as I might have implied in the OP, but perhaps that more of the elements came from this God and other Gods like Horus.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there

Offline jedweber

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3791
  • Darwins +19/-0
  • Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 11:48:34 AM »
I don't think the stories really "line up" all that closely, it's more that they have many points in common which can be cherry-picked to make an admittedly surprising list. For example, Horus and Jesus may both be "dying-and-rising God-men," (as are a number of others) but the meaning of the death and resurrection and its role in an individual's salvation are fundamentally different for followers of Jesus and followers of Horus.

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
I've written fiction (I'm probably not alone here).  The most plausible situation is that there was a heavy blending of stories in the region and key parts were changed to fit the local mores. 

The reason why some patterns keep showing up is because they work; stories and characters people like or see a benefit in tend to get replicated.  For example, detective stories often follow a pattern and even when they don't there is an effort to work against the pattern specifically because it is well known.

That said, I think there is enough evidence that significant borrowing has happened not only of characters but of texts and forms; Gilgimesh (Noah's Ark), Egyptian book of the dead (10 commandments), ... and the cross borrowing of stories within the OT and NT and between the OT and NT.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline yoski

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2008, 03:11:46 PM »
Quote
Looking at similarities is fun and fine.  But looking at the differences makes all of the difference.
We can talk about how similar every human is to another, but  in comparing a human to a blade of grass we see something very different.

Quote
What are the important differences?

All/any differences are important.


Quote
Just because Jesus is more similar to Horus than Jesus is similar to Agloolik doesn't say anything.
Americans are more similar to each other than to other people of other nations.  Does that mean that you are your neighbor.

True, but we're talking about the savior of humanity having an extremely similar story, down to his parents' names, as another savior of humanity that was worshiped centuries before.

Quote
If someone combines two stories that you told them (i.e., I went to the store and bought a candy bar, and my neighbor went to the store and bought some bread)  into one story (i.e., I know this guy that went to the store and bought a candy bar and a loaf of bread), does that mean that the same person did both? and is therefore a story about only one person--not two?

No, but it does hint at the fact that you did make up the story, and it is not a true historical account.

Offline JehWit_survivor

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 03:33:48 PM »
I was blown away today when I found this excellent page that shows the similarities between the Jesus story and that of Horus, an Egyptian god that was worshiped centuries before the time of Jesus.

Check out the tables on this page and tell me what you think: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

I have seen things before that show Christianity's parallels to other older religions, but never anything this rock solid and clear. The two stories seem to be step by step identical. I think there are far too many similarities here to chalk it up to pure coincidence. How can this be explained other than by pure plagiarism? Perhaps God liked the story of Horus and plagiarized it himself.

My question is, how can a Christian see this page and not have their faith tremendously disturbed?

When I saw this is religilous I was blown away, that sealed the deal of me being agnostic. It's so obvious! Christianty does not have a shred of orignality in it at all.
"religion is a neurological disorder"
Bill Maher

Offline I KILLED JEBUS

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of the Army of the 12 monkeys
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 06:25:54 PM »
Funny during Haida myth-time (the time before men) none of our dieties were really human. There were transformed humans as well as transformed animals..........but no god in a human image also no hell to speak of. Die and be reborn,pretty simple no guilt,fear,torture,punishment......
Bow down my hairy children and behold the world I have laid out for you,walk away from your electronic devices and listen to the sounds of nature. Tear from you the ties that bind you to your pathetic existance,walk back into the woods with me and we shall feast on the bounty I have left
Sasquatch

Offline Count Iblis

Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 09:24:47 PM »
Sorry, but these parallels just don't exist. For example, the site claims that Egyptian KRST means anointed but it doesn't. It means something more like "buried" (it's also a q not a k).

See also http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/ending_the_myth_of_horus/
Religion is an act of sedition against reason.--P.Z. Myers

To find out more about the Evil Atheist Conspiracy visit http://www.atheistthinktank.net/

you know, hell is going to be so jammed full of lying Christians that I fear I will never get in.  --velkyn

Offline Idioteque

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jesus = Horus?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 09:35:55 PM »
Quote
Sorry, but these parallels just don't exist. For example, the site claims that Egyptian KRST means anointed but it doesn't. It means something more like "buried" (it's also a q not a k).

See also http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/ending_the_myth_of_horus/

There are no references at the end of this article. Where did that information come from?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there