Author Topic: American Jihadis  (Read 551 times)

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Offline relativetruth

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American Jihadis
« on: September 04, 2014, 11:20:53 AM »
Read this link

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/i-was-nearly-an-american-jihadi--and-i-understand-why-young-men-are-joining-isis-9710619.html

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It’s easy to assume that religious people, particularly Muslims, simply do things because their religions tell them to. But when I think about my impulse at age 17 to run away and become a fighter for the Chechen rebels, I consider more than religious factors. My imagined scenario of liberating Chechnya and turning it into an Islamic state was a purely American fantasy, grounded in American ideals and values.

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Whenever I hear of an American who flies across the globe to throw himself into freedom struggles that are not his own, I think, What a very, very American thing to do.

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And that’s the problem. We are raised to love violence and view military conquest as a benevolent act. The American kid who wants to intervene in another nation’s civil war owes his worldview as much to American exceptionalism as to jihadist interpretations of scripture. I grew up in a country that glorifies military sacrifice and feels entitled to rebuild other societies according to its own vision. I internalized these values before ever thinking about religion. Before I even knew what a Muslim was, let alone concepts such as “jihad” or an “Islamic state,” my American life had taught me that that’s what brave men do.

Why would an ALL-loving creator god tolerate genocide??
Why would an ALL-loving creator god support and suggest 'holy' wars?

edit for emphasis
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 11:28:04 AM by relativetruth »
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 01:16:45 PM »
He does have a point.  You don't promote freedom, justice, and so on by going and beating other people up who don't abide by your ideals.  You promote them by living up to them, and leading by example.

For a time, I was interested in joining the military, but it wasn't to go over to other countries and fight, it was to protect and serve this one.  I was ultimately prevented from joining because of eyesight problems, which is probably just as well.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 05:59:34 PM »
I too was interested in joining the military, (the RAF to be exact)And it too wasn't to go over to other countries and fight, nor was it to protect and serve my country, it was to be around planes. and the camaraderie of the group.  I was also prevented from joining because of eyesight problems, which was sad at the time.
I am human first, my nationality comes way way down the list. So I cant understand the reason anyone (be it jihadis or patriot) would want to kill other people simple because they open their eggs from a different end. To me it must have something to do with indoctrination, be it political or religious.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Nam

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2014, 12:18:20 AM »
I thought this was just people who enjoyed killing, torturing, raping etc., people because that's the world these people want to live in, and force everyone else to live in; you know, like Fundy conservative Christians and the NRA.

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2014, 11:19:13 AM »

The OP puts in some good quotes. Americans are conditioned to swallow US gummint propaganda whole. Any other nation bombs or invades a country, US media portrays it as aggressive war. But for some bizarre reason, Americans think if USA bombs or invades another country, it is somehow humanitarian. Very poor education in USA, especially history classes. 

Personally, I get so angry at US imperialism in the Muslim world, I sometimes feel kind of sympathetic with the so-called Islamacists who fight US troops. Here are these foreign troops on their land, killing and abusing their fellow countrymen, making things even more of a mess. I imagine these guys think of themselves as being similar to the French or Polish resistance of WW2. In  such situations, a lot of people make common cause to fight an outside enemy...a lot of people in these groups may not give a hoot about Islam but have temporarily joined forces with extremists in hopes of pushing out the invader.  In such situations, enemies such as Royalists and Socialists will call a truce, and join together to try to push out Fascists.

US media loves to portray every insurgent as a fanatical Muslim, because that has been the official US boogey-man since the fall of the USSR (replacing 'Communist' the former official boogey-man). But after the cold war, it was revealed the Communists weren't very strong after all, and it was mostly bluff, because they were afraid of USA.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2014, 11:59:25 PM »
If the world did not run on oil would we have this problem? The Jewish state being propped up by the USA,at the same time the USA is kissing the feet of the oil rich Arab states.... What could go wrong?
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 04:04:01 PM »
If the world did not run on oil would we have this problem? The Jewish state being propped up by the USA,at the same time the USA is kissing the feet of the oil rich Arab states.... What could go wrong?

Invent a better battery and more efficient solar panels. You solve most of the worlds problems in one stroke!

Global warming could be managed.

Terrorist groups like ISIS would lose most of their funding.

World poverty is reduced because more energy is available to provide essential resources in many areas.

With less people worrying where their next meal is coming from they are more likely to be able to find a job and so contribute to the global economy.

God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline wiswit

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2014, 03:22:30 PM »
If the world did not run on oil would we have this problem? The Jewish state being propped up by the USA,at the same time the USA is kissing the feet of the oil rich Arab states.... What could go wrong?

Invent a better battery and more efficient solar panels. You solve most of the worlds problems in one stroke!

Global warming could be managed.

Terrorist groups like ISIS would lose most of their funding.

World poverty is reduced because more energy is available to provide essential resources in many areas.

With less people worrying where their next meal is coming from they are more likely to be able to find a job and so contribute to the global economy.

I disagree with some of your statements.

I believe the problem is not so much that our industry, our lives, run on oil, but the fact that whatever we (humans) need, we exploit to the fullest possible extend with little regard for the environment and less fortunate people. Even if better batteries or more efficient solar panels were developed, I don't really believe it would make a difference and improve peoples lives, at least, if we are talking about those lives that really need it. I find it very probable that it would serve those who are already having a prosperous life.

Let's look at the evidence.
I think everybody can agree that technological developments are being made at an increasing rate. The point that ‘poverty will reduce because more energy is available to provide for essential resources in many areas’, is somewhat questionable. I think that there is little evidence to support that more available resources lead to a reduction in poverty. According to data (http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#1) it is true that poverty is reducing, but the rich are getting richer at a higher rate (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/XD-XM-XP?display=graph). (see the difference in GDP for Low, Middle and High income, and you will readily see that the high income graph has increased more).
Also, the rate with which we produce/consume energy has increased over the years (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.EGY.PROD.KT.OE/countries?display=graph).
By suggesting that more energy is available to provide essential resources, if we would only develop (for example) better batteries, you seem to neglect the fact that people (generally) act in their own interest. I live in a society, where the general opinion is that; financial foreign aid should stop just because we have our own 'financial crisis' and that the reality is that our standard of living is higher than those living in for example Africa and that we should first help ourselves! Note, I am not saying that foreign aid is necessarily good as it is now as a lot of the money does not reach the people who need it. I am merely hinting at human nature, which seems to think first about its own personal benefits than those of others. When I think about the word 'more' and the notions generally related to it; if only we had more, we could have helped, more money, more resources, ...etc. This does not necessarily need to reflect the truth. For example, there is a lot of waste in food,  because we overproduce in case of crop failure, and then dump/destroy it if there is no need for them...which is usually the case, or simply because we can afford it (http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/sustainability/index_en.htm). In fact, to me it seems that because Capitalism focuses on constantly growing, it does not necessarily bother itself with reducing poverty, unless reducing poverty has a financial benefit.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:46:30 PM by wiswit »
Kill one man, you are a murderer
Kill a million, and you are a Conqueror
Kill them all, and you are a God

~Jean Rostand (Thoughts of a Biologist, 1938)

Offline wiswit

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2014, 03:24:45 PM »
In relation to the statement made by flapdoodle64, I can say I understand the anger regarding how the media is used to portray anything (e.g. country's policies) to their use, but I still think that resistance through force is somewhat futile (against a super power) and even if successful (oppressed defeats oppressor), it will result in so many casualties that it can hardly be called a victory...(Vietnam)
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More than 3 million people, including 58,000 Americans, were killed in the conflict
(http://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war). If people who have the means to educate themselves and be critical enough to check the facts of a news report, would take that responsibility and hold themselves and their government accountable, if we would/could do that, maybe, just maybe, we could prevent having wars that have nothing to do with the subject that they are broadcast with (2nd gulf war).

I also sympathise with those people who take up arms and fight an invader. As I live safely in a peaceful country (the Netherlands), I am in no way able to actually comprehend what goes through a persons' mind when they see oppression and war. I just wanted to point out that I believe that I have a responsibility to question what my government does in my name, and that the fact that I have a possibility to let my voice be heard without danger, may prevent many deaths in countries where so many voices go unheard and punished. This might very well be a source of frustration and injustice to people who are fighting as a jihadist, that is how I see it.
In addition, here is another source that questions the notion that through technological advancements groups like IS (formally ISIS) would loose most of their funds http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html. This article includes a statement from prince Bandar '..substantial and sustained funding from private donors in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to which the authorities may have turned a blind eye, has played a central role in the Isis surge into Sunni areas of Iraq'. This article does not give me any basis to believe that technological development, or the lack of it, are the reason why (if it is even true) IS has received or is still receiving funding.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:43:37 PM by wiswit »
Kill one man, you are a murderer
Kill a million, and you are a Conqueror
Kill them all, and you are a God

~Jean Rostand (Thoughts of a Biologist, 1938)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2014, 03:37:57 PM »
Why would an ALL-loving creator god tolerate genocide??
Why would an ALL-loving creator god support and suggest 'holy' wars?

Where does it say that God is all-loving? Yahweh hates many types of person. He particularly hates those who disobey him and those who do not worship him.

Yahweh's motto is "Peace is proportional to the numbers killed." In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier. - See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.Mn8ygdHj.dpuf
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline relativetruth

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Re: American Jihadis
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 07:52:51 PM »
Why would an ALL-loving creator god tolerate genocide??
Why would an ALL-loving creator god support and suggest 'holy' wars?

Where does it say that God is all-loving? Yahweh hates many types of person. He particularly hates those who disobey him and those who do not worship him.


Many theists seem to believe that their god is ALL-Loving in spite of the lack of evidence in their books!

God(s) exist and are imaginary