Author Topic: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag  (Read 697 times)

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Offline Chronos

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Offline Jag

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 11:52:56 PM »
 :o

Jaw. Freaking. Dropped.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2014, 12:09:21 AM »
"Thank you god for allowing us the freedom to believe..." -- see "freedom" for them, no one else. Proof.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline wright

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2014, 12:16:56 AM »
I'd really like to think I'm missing some context here, that would excuse this blinkered view of "freedom" and patriotism these (presumably) publicly-elected bureaucrats believe in. Like, the guy taking the video is a habitual trouble-maker, or that he edited out where he was screaming Satanist imprecations at them, or possibly both.

Seriously, they can't let one person sit during their little ritual? These folks have a seriously exaggerated sense of self-importance.

Edit: found a post at the Friendly Atheist that has some more details:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/08/29/florida-mayor-kicks-atheist-out-of-city-commission-meeting-after-he-doesnt-stand-for-the-invocation-or-pledge/
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 12:24:17 AM by wright »
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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2014, 03:22:05 AM »
So more atheists are going to do this in two weeks... Can't wait to see the shit storm that will ensue.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2014, 03:28:25 AM »
I'd really like to think I'm missing some context here, that would excuse this blinkered view of "freedom" and patriotism these (presumably) publicly-elected bureaucrats believe in. Like, the guy taking the video is a habitual trouble-maker, or that he edited out where he was screaming Satanist imprecations at them, or possibly both.

Seriously, they can't let one person sit during their little ritual? These folks have a seriously exaggerated sense of self-importance.

Edit: found a post at the Friendly Atheist that has some more details:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/08/29/florida-mayor-kicks-atheist-out-of-city-commission-meeting-after-he-doesnt-stand-for-the-invocation-or-pledge/

I went to High School in Winter Garden.  I went to the Vo-Tech there (Westside) and when a teacher found out I was an atheist she got another teacher and tried to convert me. They failed.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Chronos

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2014, 04:07:07 PM »
I'd really like to think I'm missing some context here, that would excuse this blinkered view of "freedom" and patriotism these (presumably) publicly-elected bureaucrats believe in. Like, the guy taking the video is a habitual trouble-maker, or that he edited out where he was screaming Satanist imprecations at them, or possibly both.

It appears he was being quiet and respectful and I have yet to see any comments posted anywhere (even outside of YouTube) that indicates he was a trouble maker. Seems the only trouble he was making was not praying and later not standing up.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Nam

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 04:34:35 PM »
I'd really like to think I'm missing some context here, that would excuse this blinkered view of "freedom" and patriotism these (presumably) publicly-elected bureaucrats believe in. Like, the guy taking the video is a habitual trouble-maker, or that he edited out where he was screaming Satanist imprecations at them, or possibly both.

It appears he was being quiet and respectful and I have yet to see any comments posted anywhere (even outside of YouTube) that indicates he was a trouble maker. Seems the only trouble he was making was not praying and later not standing up.


Yep, and Christians will paint him the bad guy.

I remember I took my mom to church in Ocoee (next door to Winter Garden where that video took place) and when they stood to pray, I stayed seated and a guy behind me hit me on my back and told me to stand up, I turned around (still seated) and told him if he touched me again I would break his hand. He left me alone. I was there out of respect of my mother not the church or anyone else.

These days if I take her, I wait outside.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Graybeard

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 08:08:35 PM »
In the 1950s, the father of a friend of mine worked as a consultant to the Government of Ghana. The president at the time was Kwame Nkrumah. My friend attended a local school. Every morning started with a solemn flag-raising, the oath of allegiance to Ghana, the anthem and chants of “Nkrumah is next to God, Nkrumah can do no wrong.”

Oaths and chants are rarely required. If they are, once is more than enough. To insist on it each time indicates that someone, somewhere doesn’t trust you or thinks you might forget.

Fine training for fine young minds.

He told me this story when we were at school and about 14 years old. I was horrified – the stuff of Third World / Iron Curtain Dictators. I suppose that it is OK in time of war to have the odd patriotic song… but not every morning and not when the enemy is still at home watching TV.

I remember seeing my first flag burning – it was a US flag at a Vietnam protest shown on TV – my only thought was “Proof, if proof were needed, that flags dipped in paraffin (kerosene) burn.” I also remember the discussions of this “outrageous act” that followed. It seemed to me that I’d missed something – “Hello! It was a flag, people, there’s thousands more where that came from.”

Someone’ll fill in the detail or correct me, but I seem to think that after various protesters were beaten and dragged off by uniformed men, it was found that there is no offence of burning a flag.

What there is, is a general convention that you are required to become upset when someone sets fire to a flag.

I don’t know when or where it started but it probably comes from carrying the idol of the local god to war, and, as losing a god was pretty bad, this became the carrying of a symbol of the god and then the military defending a flag/standard/etc. and, as their primitive ancestors, venerating it not only as a symbol of the power it depicted, but believing it to be the power it depicted.

As I say: fine when you are at war – defend a flag by all means, the convention encourages futile gestures - posthumous medals all round, hero’s funeral, place in history. We Brits did it in every country worth mentioning and several that are not.

As the German army advanced towards Moscow, Stalin gave orders that anyone who surrendered would be shot. He should have given them each a flag and told them “Defend it to the last!” it would have had the same effect but it puts the honour of the holder of the flag at stake, which is probably more powerful that threatening to shoot him: because of the convention, people are happy to die in great honour... but they are just as dead.

It is a pity that this guy was ejected. He is probably the only one who knew the implications and spirit of the Oath of Allegiance without having to be retrained in it at each meeting.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 10:53:04 AM »
What there is, is a general convention that you are required to become upset when someone sets fire to a flag.

I don't think it is quite that.  I think it is more that the nationalistic individuals[1] among us have made the flag into a national sacred object.  It represents the country, thus, it is the country.  And whatever you do to the flag you are symbolically doing to the country.  And any time a sacred object is... profaned, the natural reaction is over the top hysterics.  So it is not the reaction - becomming upset - that is required, so much as the worship of a piece of cloth and conflating it with your national pride and identity.


 1. distinct from the patriotic ones
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 11:32:28 AM »
The problem with a symbol is that it's often impossible to tell for sure just what that symbol means to other people.  That's true of high-profile symbols such as a flag as it is of anything else.

To me, the American flag is representative of this country.  In its own way, it's as sacred as the Constitution.  However, it is no more the country than I am.  In fact, as a citizen, I am more representative of the country than the flag is, because when all is said and done, the flag is a piece of colored and patterned cloth.  It is citizens who truly make up the country, and thus each individual citizen is more representative of this country.

I am not saying the other symbols are not important.  The patterns and colors on the flag are reminders of things about this country, for example.  However, it is not itself the country.

Offline Nam

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 11:50:48 AM »
What there is, is a general convention that you are required to become upset when someone sets fire to a flag.
I don't think it is quite that.  I think it is more that the nationalistic individuals[1] among us have made the flag into a national sacred object.  It represents the country, thus, it is the country.  And whatever you do to the flag you are symbolically doing to the country.  And any time a sacred object is... profaned, the natural reaction is over the top hysterics.  So it is not the reaction - becomming upset - that is required, so much as the worship of a piece of cloth and conflating it with your national pride and identity.

I was arrested once when a neighbor called the police stating I burned an american flag; charges were dropped but I committed no crime. This was in 2003 in protest of the Iraq war.

People are arrested all the time for burning the american flag. States have laws against it, which is unconstitutional. A man in Missouri was compensated $7,000 by the courts for unlawful arrest.

Also, flags are burned by the government all the time; that's how you dispose of old ones in place of new ones.

-Nam
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 11:52:52 AM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 12:27:05 PM »
The problem with a symbol is that it's often impossible to tell for sure just what that symbol means to other people.  That's true of high-profile symbols such as a flag as it is of anything else.

To me, the American flag is representative of this country.  In its own way, it's as sacred as the Constitution.  However, it is no more the country than I am.  In fact, as a citizen, I am more representative of the country than the flag is, because when all is said and done, the flag is a piece of colored and patterned cloth.  It is citizens who truly make up the country, and thus each individual citizen is more representative of this country.

I am not saying the other symbols are not important.  The patterns and colors on the flag are reminders of things about this country, for example.  However, it is not itself the country.

I understand all those words, but I have no idea what you are saying.  I do not find a coherent point in there.  Could you please elaborate or restate?

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 12:59:08 PM »
I was simply saying that a symbol is not the thing thus symbolized, essentially.  It's a reminder of that thing.

Offline Boots

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2014, 01:02:24 PM »
I went to High School in Winter Garden.  I went to the Vo-Tech there (Westside) and when a teacher found out I was an atheist she got another teacher and tried to convert me. They failed.

-Nam

did they survive??
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Offline wright

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2014, 01:58:34 PM »
The American Humanist Association is starting a new campaign to raise awareness of the religious aspects of the Pledge. This is not gonna go over well with certain conservatwits and jingoists[1]:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/09/08/american-humanist-association-launches-campaign-urging-students-to-stay-seated-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/
 1. But they're virtually impossible to make happy anyway...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 03:45:18 PM »
To be honest, as a kid I never understood the point of the pledge.

I understand now that it is all about these nationalistic goons who have anxiety that there just isn't enough fervent, star-spangled love for the US of A.  So they come up with a hamfisted attempt to make everyone feel the same way about their country as they do.  And it kind of works.[1]  But I find it highly manipulative and unnecessary.  You should love your country because it is loveable and you have connections to the people there, not because you repeat a mantra. 

I just hate that mindset.  It is the main thing I hated about going to Yankee stadium.  After 9/11, Steinbrenner changed the 7th inning stretch into a tradition of public prayer and nationalism.  The announcer asked everyone to stand for a moment of silent prayer and then they played God Bless America, one of the most awful songs ever.  And by the way, why the flip are we standing for God Bless America?  It's not the national anthem.  Fuck that.  I pray when and where I want to.[2]  Not because someone tells me to over a PA.  I came to see baseball, not join in a public prayer.  The last time I went, I just stayed seated.  No one gave me a hard time, but I expect eventually someone will.

 1. it is actually a brainwashing technique used by the chinese and others.
 2. never and no where, respectively
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 04:29:33 PM »
I admit that standing to say the pledge and standing to the playing of God Bless America are both very ... North Korean.

However, I have no problem with anyone not standing for either because they have a right to not stand for either. It's a lot like wearing a shirt and tie in the business world. I stopped wearing a tie a while back (as a self-employed person that is my prerogative) even though our company managers were urging us to or that we didn't look professional without them. A tie is not a symbol of professionalism. No manner of dress is designates professional behavior, just the assumed appearance of professional behavior. Equally, no amount of standing and no act of putting your hand on your heart for a pledge is evidence of patriotism or unity. Evil always lurks from within. We should look at someone's behavior, not silly symbolic references they perpetuate.

Nixon dressed professionally. He put stood up, put his hand over his heart and said the pledge. He still committed a felony.

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Offline Betelnut

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 09:31:21 PM »
Why do all those men look and dress alike?  It looked very "cult-like" to me...and scary.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 12:23:26 AM »
I can certainly see how it would be a slippery slope though. There is the freedom to believe what you please, but many atheists insist that atheism is not a belief.

So if atheism is not a belief, then it can't be covered under "freedom to believe what you want." it can only be covered if atheists start saying that atheism is a belief.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 01:05:20 AM »
Freedom to disbelieve what we want is an inherent part of having the freedom to believe what we want.

Because if, for example, you didn't have the legal freedom to disbelieve in Christianity, then you would be believing it out of coersion and not out of choice.  You would not, indeed, have a legal choice to believe; you would have a legal obligation to believe.

Similarly, there is a difference between "you are free to say yes" and "you are obligated to say yes".  In the former case, one can say no.  In the latter case, one cannot.  The former case is the one with freedom.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 01:15:23 AM »
I can certainly see how it would be a slippery slope though. There is the freedom to believe what you please, but many atheists insist that atheism is not a belief.

So if atheism is not a belief, then it can't be covered under "freedom to believe what you want." it can only be covered if atheists start saying that atheism is a belief.

Quote
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Where does it say anything about "belief" in that? Based on the above the US Supreme Court ruled in the late 1990's, what is specifically mentioned above, representing any government position: giving a "religious test" (such as stating you will do something like pledge an oath to a god) is unconstitutional. Military personnel work for the US government. Therefore, it's unconstitutional.

"Belief" is not stated.

-Nam

This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online skeptic54768

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 01:32:12 AM »
Freedom to disbelieve what we want is an inherent part of having the freedom to believe what we want.

Because if, for example, you didn't have the legal freedom to disbelieve in Christianity, then you would be believing it out of coersion and not out of choice.  You would not, indeed, have a legal choice to believe; you would have a legal obligation to believe.

Similarly, there is a difference between "you are free to say yes" and "you are obligated to say yes".  In the former case, one can say no.  In the latter case, one cannot.  The former case is the one with freedom.

OK, that makes sense.

Now let's say that hypothetically an atheist becomes President. Do you think they will ban religion or still allow it?
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 01:38:39 AM »
I can certainly see how it would be a slippery slope though. There is the freedom to believe what you please, but many atheists insist that atheism is not a belief.

So if atheism is not a belief, then it can't be covered under "freedom to believe what you want." it can only be covered if atheists start saying that atheism is a belief.

Quote
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Where does it say anything about "belief" in that? Based on the above the US Supreme Court ruled in the late 1990's, what is specifically mentioned above, representing any government position: giving a "religious test" (such as stating you will do something like pledge an oath to a god) is unconstitutional. Military personnel work for the US government. Therefore, it's unconstitutional.

"Belief" is not stated.

-Nam

Maybe they can't take a religious test, but wouldn't you agree that reasonable questions to ask atheists in interviews would be "where do you get your values?" and "Do you support eugenics?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Timo

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 01:53:20 AM »
Now let's say that hypothetically an atheist becomes President. Do you think they will ban religion or still allow it?

Ummmm, bro we have trouble passing continuing resolutions to keep the government open currently. The notion that a hypothetical atheist president could singlehandedly marshal this same broken system to overturn the first amendment and ban religion is just absurd to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the US government.

This is a stupid question.

Maybe they can't take a religious test, but wouldn't you agree that reasonable questions to ask atheists in interviews would be "where do you get your values?" and "Do you support eugenics?"

You can ask whatever you want in interviews. Journalists are free to ask anyone sitting in front of them anything they want.

And while I guess I understand the first question, even if I don't agree that it's "reasonable," is there a reason that you attribute eugenics to atheists? I mean, I hate to break it to you, but there were plenty of professing Christians that were down with that movement. And as a black person, I feel like the notion that because of my atheism I should have to answer to that charge is kind of insulting.
Nah son...

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 01:57:17 AM »
Ummmm, bro we have trouble passing continuing resolutions to keep the government open currently. The notion that a hypothetical atheist president could singlehandedly marshal this same broken system to overturn the first amendment and ban religion is just absurd to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the US government.

This is a stupid question.

OK, fair enough.

You can ask whatever you want in interviews. Journalists are free to ask anyone sitting in front of them anything they want.

And while I guess I understand the first question, even if I don't agree that it's "reasonable," is there a reason that you attribute eugenics to atheists? I mean, I hate to break it to you, but there were plenty of professing Christians that were down with that movement. And as a black person, I feel like the notion that because of my atheism I should have to answer to that charge is kind of insulting.

This guy seems to be in favor of Black Supremacy:

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Timo

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 02:00:45 AM »
What the fuck are you even talking about? I mentioned my race because the eugenics movement was a racist movement.
Nah son...

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2014, 02:07:14 AM »
What the fuck are you even talking about? I mentioned my race because the eugenics movement was a racist movement.

But, you could be black and want black supremacy. That would be eugenics, and still racist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Told to leave for not standing up for the flag
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2014, 02:13:34 AM »
Maybe they can't take a religious test

Not "maybe" -- they can't, period. Just like religious people can't take a religious test. However, in 8 states (mainly in the Southern US) they actually state in their separate Constitutions that anyone who doesn't believe in God (the Christian one) cannot hold office. They are ignoring the Constitution by having those laws.

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but wouldn't you agree that reasonable questions to ask atheists in interviews would be "where do you get your values?" and "Do you support eugenics?"

No. Just like an atheist interviewing a Christian shouldn't ask, "So...why do you believe in a whiney mass murdering deity who obviously only cares about itself?"

See my point?

Probably not.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.