Author Topic: Speaking from my Christian Past  (Read 614 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2014, 09:10:33 AM »
Jesus-God....one in the same.....no?

Not according to Jesus.  "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Jesus was a mediator the same as Moses was a mediator.  Moses was given his commandments for the Jews.  Jesus was given his commandments for the Christians.
So Jesus was just a guy...good to know
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2014, 10:57:22 AM »
Not according to Jesus.  "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Jesus was a mediator the same as Moses was a mediator.  Moses was given his commandments for the Jews.  Jesus was given his commandments for the Christians.
So Jesus was just a guy...good to know

If I understand the JW position correctly[1], Jesus was just a guy, but also god's only direct creation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_witness#Jehovah_and_Jesus_Christ
Quote from: Wikipedia
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's only direct creation, that everything else was created by means of Christ, and that the initial unassisted act of creation uniquely identifies Jesus as God's "only-begotten Son". Jesus served as a redeemer and a ransom sacrifice to pay for the sins of humanity. They believe Jesus died on a single upright torture stake rather than the traditional cross. They believe that references in the Bible to the Archangel Michael, Abaddon (Apollyon), and the Word all refer to Jesus. Jesus is considered to be the only intercessor and high priest between God and humanity, and appointed by God as the king and judge of his kingdom. His role as a mediator (referred to in 1 Timothy 2:5) is applied to the 'anointed' class, though the 'other sheep' are said to also benefit from the arrangement.

This is how I'm understanding this paragraph:
In the beginning, god made one and only one 'thingie' - Jesus Christ.  Through Jesus Christ (meaning...well, something or other) all other 'thingies' were made.  Like the sun and the moon and the stars and gophers and bunnies and lions and tigers and bears and Lady Gaga.  Jesus Christ, the redeemer and ransom sacrifice, is the only intercessor and high priest between god and humanity, which is different than being a mediator, because others (like Moses) were also mediators.  Mediator being...well, something or other, but it certainly isn't the same or similar to being an intercessor between god and humanity.

Which is to say, in the beginning, god knew that he was going to create (through Jesus Christ the Redeemer) humanity, and that humanity was going to be a sinful bunch that needed to have Jesus Christ act as a ransom sacrifice (who or what is asking for the ransom...well, something or other).

God: "Behold, Jesus, I have created you!"
Jesus: "Oh hai!  So, what's up?"
God: "Nothing much...well, actually, nothing.  Haven't created anything besides you yet."
Jesus: "Ah.  So what are ya going to make next?"
God: "I've been thinking about this thing I've called 'the world'.  Seems like a good thing to get a start on.  It's got trees and dogs and Ebola and stuff."
Jesus: "Well, don't know what those things are yet, but you'll clue me in, right?"
God: "Yeah...about that.  See, I'm creating all this stuff through you."
Jesus: "Through me?  You make me and then immediately put me to work?  I mean, cool and all, but..."
God: "No no don't worry so much about that.  I'm going to do all the heavy lifting.  You just need to <insert divine explanation of what 'creating by means of Christ' even remotely means>."
Jesus: "Sweet deal.  So what should I do?"
God: "Well, you're rather important.  Firstly, you're enabling me to create stuff.  Which is pretty awesome.  Other than that, I need to keep you in the bullpen.  At some point, I'm going to make these creatures called 'humans', who I absolutely adore...er, will absolutely adore.  Anyway - they're going to be a pretty bad lot in need of saving."
Jesus: "They...they are?  Can you prevent that or anything?"
God: "Yeah.  But I'm not going to, because HEY SQUIRREL!"
Jesus: "Do what now?"
God: "Right...haven't made the squirrel yet.  Don't worry about it.  Anyway, yeah, those humans are going to need some redemption.  And that's where you come in my boy!"
Jesus: "I'm going to be a redeemer?  That sounds pretty important.  Thanks!"
God: "No problemo - it's what I do.  So anyway, I'm going to get started on this whole creation thing through you.  In around 4000 years or so, like after some 200 generations or so of these humans, I'm going to need you to go down and get tortured and killed so that they can be redeemed."
Jesus: "So they start going bad in about 4000 years?"
God: "Well, no.  They start going bad around a week after I start making all this stuff."
Jesus: "..."
God: "There a problem bud?  You got a look on your face."
Jesus: "So what's up with the waiting for 4000 years?  I mean - I'm here now.  We could just do the whole redemption thing now.  Or in a couple of weeks if you need a little more time to plan."
God: "Dude, I don't need time to plan.  I got the plan."
Jesus: "Alright alright...sorry.  Didn't mean to be rude.  But - I'm just being honest here - what's up with the waiting for 4000 years?"
God: "Well, I first have to watch them screw up and go all bad.  After that happens, I'm going to chill for a while somewhere.  You know, let the humans 'do their thing'..."
Jesus: "You mean the whole 'continue falling down further and further into this sin thing that they need to be redeemed from'..."
God: "Right.  Then, I have to get a bit pissy and drown a massive chunk of them in order to eliminate evil.  And then regret that action and apologize for it."
Jesus: "Ummm..."
God: "And then I've got to give some of the humans an instruction manual on how to behave.  Spoiler alert: later on, I'm giving a different set of humans a different set of instructions.  They'll even have part of your name in their name - Christians!  Pretty cool, eh?"
Jesus: "..."
God: "There's that face again."
Jesus: "...you know - don't worry about it.  Just do your thing.  Call me when you need me.  I'm going to go to the back and practice my lines for...4000 years from now.  To redeem humanity.  From the badness that you're not going to do anything to prevent them from falling into."
God: "You're trailing off there buddy."
Jesus: "What - no.  Don't worry about...k I can't really do this.  Seriously - this plan of yours really does kinda sound...dumb and ineffectual.  Have you really thought this whole thing through?"
God: "OF COURSE I HAVE THOUGHT THIS THROUGH.  The plan is perfect - the plan is the most kind and benevolent plan there is.  What, you think you have a better plan?"
Jesus: "Yes.  Several."
 1. And I'm looking at the JW Wikipedia page, so I'm under no delusion that I have anything like a solid understanding.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2014, 11:19:48 AM »
... and the challenge is to identify which episode of Mr Deity that most resembles.. :-)



But, personally, I love Lucy.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2014, 12:03:24 PM »
That makes more sense than the holy trinity.   Also it looks like George Lucas lost some weight so, good for him!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 12:53:16 PM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.