Author Topic: Claim: God(s) don't exist.  (Read 302 times)

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Offline Defiance

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Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« on: August 20, 2014, 08:28:20 PM »
Evidence:

Based on our highly supported Big Bang theory, I am supported, by a large portion of the scientific community, in saying that Time and Space were only around at T=0 and forward.

Any god  of discussion is said to be eternal:

Google.com
Quote
e·ter·nal
i?t?rnl/
adjective
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
"the secret of eternal youth"
synonyms:   everlasting, never-ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding, permanent, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless; amaranthine
"eternal happiness"

Claim: existence requires Space and Time. To say exist "beyond" space and time...is meaningless.

Evidence: Every single thing in existence has a time and space.

 • Car: in my driveway, been there for some time now.
 • Nightmare: in my brain through chemical processes, last night.
 • Force: Mass is accelerating; I'm pushing a ball around, right now.

For something to exist, it must have a place to be, and time through which it goes through a sequence; existing.

Gods of any major religion are said to exist without Time and Space.

False. Existence requires Time and Space. Any contrary claim requires proof of something, anything, that existed without a place to exist, and a time to exist. No such evidence has been presented, therefore my evidence backed claim is much more correct.

THEREFORE, either gods don't exist at all, or they only exist at T=0 and forward, severely stripping them of any ability to actually participate in the "making" of the Big Bang itself.

Since there is zero scientific evidence of the actual existence of any god (in or "out" of time and space); exists no where, and exists at no time, meaning does not exist.

EDIT: Grammar and italics.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 08:31:54 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
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*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 08:56:57 PM »
Good synopsis, but remember, when someone is making something up (like gods), they get to make up anything they want about them. Rationality, reality, truth; none of those are required to make up a good god.

You're dealing with people who say "Hey, it says right in this book that god is real, and he must be, because it says so right here in this book!" Sometimes their reasoning isn't even circular. Oft times it is just plain non-existent.

Logic isn't their strong point.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 09:10:54 PM »
Evidence:

Based on our highly supported Big Bang theory, I am supported, by a large portion of the scientific community, in saying that Time and Space were only around at T=0 and forward.


Yeah, but physicists are developing another time dimension and putting all the universes on a big M brane, because they know damn well that the universe didn't just pop out of nothing.

I should remember which episodes of Through The Wormhole and BBC Universe deal with this. I will have a look at the last  ones I watched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

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Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 09:15:25 PM »
Evidence:

Based on our highly supported Big Bang theory, I am supported, by a large portion of the scientific community, in saying that Time and Space were only around at T=0 and forward.


Yeah, but physicists are developing another time dimension and putting all the universes on a big M brane, because they know damn well that the universe didn't just pop out of nothing.

I should remember which episodes of Through The Wormhole and BBC Universe deal with this. I will have a look at the last  ones I watched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology
I'm going have to ask you to warn theists and tell them "That does not warrant a case for a god." :)

Interesting, I will have to study up on that.

However, under my understanding that is still massively supported supported by evidence, Gods would still need to have time to exist in, and space to exist at.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 09:43:29 PM »
You are going to have difficulty convincing theists that there is no God using this method, if most physicists are working in 11 dimensions with Supergravity and String Theory, and posit that this universe was created by the collision of super dimensional waves in the hyperspace.

I've just been watching BBC Horizon 2002 ep 06.    -  Parallel Universes

Anything else I come up with, I will put in this post. That ep can be tracked down in the mega torrent on the torrent sites. BBC and Wormhole probably do a string theory ep every year or so.

This is a bit of Horizon 2012 ep 11(?) or 5(according to imdb) - How Small Is the Universe?


BBC Horizon - s2010 ep 11 - What Happened Before the Big Bang
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 09:52:07 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 09:49:57 PM »
You are going to have difficulty convincing theists that there is no God using this method, if most physicists are working in 11 dimensions with Supergravity and String Theory, and posit that this universe was created by the collision of super dimensional waves in the hyperspace.

I've just been watching BBC Horizon 2002 ep 06.    -  Parallel Universes

Anything else I come up with, I will put in this post. That ep can be tracked down in the mega torrent on the torrent sites. BBC and Wormhole probably do a string theory ep every year or so.


What exactly are those 11 dimensions? Are they something else other than Space and Time?

Again, I understand what you're getting at; an explanation for the Big Bang. But it still doesn't counter the statement: Gods would require Time and Space to exist in, and therefore there would not be the ones to "make" time and space.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 09:57:03 PM »
Again, I understand what you're getting at; an explanation for the Big Bang. But it still doesn't counter the statement: Gods would require Time and Space to exist in, and therefore there would not be the ones to "make" time and space.

That's a very limited way of look at what physicists are thinking. The old analogy is that we are ant-like things wandering around on a 2D surface, and saying that a God must exist with us on a 2D surface, then being perplexed by something coming from above us, and poking us. It's quite plain to the thing from the next dimension up, that  what the ants call "space", is just a subset of the higher being's universe.

Imagine that scenario being true for yet another dimension, so that something can poke at THAT higher 3D being from the 4th spacial dimension. Then do that another 5 or 6 times, and you get what physicists are thinking.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 10:02:20 PM »
Again, I understand what you're getting at; an explanation for the Big Bang. But it still doesn't counter the statement: Gods would require Time and Space to exist in, and therefore there would not be the ones to "make" time and space.

That's a very limited way of look at what physicists are thinking. The old analogy is that we are ant-like things wandering around on a 2D surface, and saying that a God must exist with us on a 2D surface, then being perplexed by something coming from above us, and poking us. It's quite plain to the thing from the next dimension up, that  what the ants call "space", is just a subset of the higher being's universe.

Imagine that scenario being true for yet another dimension, so that something can poke at THAT higher 3D being from the 4th spacial dimension. Then do that another 5 or 6 times, and you get what physicists are thinking.

We live in a 3 dimensional world, with the fourth being time. We can look in every direction. We can have length, width, and height. AND a time frame.

WHERE ELSE other than EVERYWHERE at ANYTIME does a god exist?
That analogy never made sense. We're not 2D. We're 3D. There is nowhere that "something" could come from unless it's included in that 3D!

Maybe I'm just ducking retarded, but those ants couldn't exist without 3D organs and stuff. Better analogy, please?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 10:11:31 PM »
 God as described in the Bible (and heaven) have 3 dimensional form....but because we have exceeded the grasp of the ancient goat herders (and their God) they must shift the goal post so once again their God exceeds our grasp.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 11:49:51 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 10:20:08 PM »
Maybe I'm just ducking retarded, but those ants couldn't exist without 3D organs and stuff. Better analogy, please?

We don't live in a 3D world. That's just the way we perceive it. All the functions of the atoms require 10+ dimensions to do what they need to do. Non locality, etc.

If you want to try to visualize a 4th spacial dimension, just look at your hand and imagine that there are an infinity or large-number of hands in that place, and you are seeing an image from a huge number of hands in that position, that likewise goes into a huge number of eyeballs in the same place as where you think your eyeball is. The upper dimensions are part of us, but our brains and senses pretend that there are 3.
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 10:21:56 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 10:41:38 PM »
'Kay.

I get it. High level physics.

However, am I wrong to say existence requires Time and Space?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 11:04:01 PM »
everything other than god needs to exist in time and space, the theist will argue at least.

god does not have to obey any laws of physics, it made them. god can start, stop and change all laws of physics anytime time god  god dam pleases...end of story.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 11:38:36 PM »
'Kay.

I get it. High level physics.

However, am I wrong to say existence requires Time and Space?

There are a number of scenarios where a god could exist outside our territorial view of time and space, and you can even revise Biblical God to work via proxies, such as angels. Angels could occupy a similar niche as advanced aliens. God could have given them messages using an advanced hyperdimensional coded system, and they may have evolved by themselves on planet X, then come to Earth to boss us around, and manipulate our fortunes. God could be watching this all from outside, on his hyperdimensional TV. Then, when the universe ends, he resurrects the people who obeyed his angels the best, into a new universe, called the Aeon.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 02:25:15 AM »
 

There are a number of scenarios where a god could exist outside our territorial view of time and space, and you can even revise Biblical God to work via proxies, such as angels. Angels could occupy a similar niche as advanced aliens. God could have given them messages using an advanced hyperdimensional coded system, and they may have evolved by themselves on planet X, then come to Earth to boss us around, and manipulate our fortunes. God could be watching this all from outside, on his hyperdimensional TV. Then, when the universe ends, he resurrects the people who obeyed his angels the best, into a new universe, called the Aeon.
For a god to do anything, it would have to evoke time. Time is a prerequisite to movement. nothing can be done without it regardless of a god being beyond space.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 03:09:35 AM »
For a god to do anything, it would have to evoke time. Time is a prerequisite to movement. nothing can be done without it regardless of a god being beyond space.

Einstein saw time as a dimension. That being so, then time is not something that passes, to create action. Physicists are talking about perpendicular types of time, that exist when our apparent time is nonexistent or still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time
http://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html

In this view, the space-time universe is just an object, not a moving thing. This object could sit like a frozen pebble in front of a god who had his own version of "time", outside ours.

That's the gist of it.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 04:43:05 AM »
For a god to do anything, it would have to evoke time. Time is a prerequisite to movement. nothing can be done without it regardless of a god being beyond space.

Einstein saw time as a dimension. That being so, then time is not something that passes, to create action. Physicists are talking about perpendicular types of time, that exist when our apparent time is nonexistent or still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time
http://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html

In this view, the space-time universe is just an object, not a moving thing. This object could sit like a frozen pebble in front of a god who had his own version of "time", outside ours.

That's the gist of it.
But even then! He would have to evoke time be in this universe or not, to be able to do anything. Time (for want of a better term) in his universe would have had to have started before he did. and would still be governed by the same laws. up,down, left, right, forward, back. He cannot be outside time only in another place with time (for want of a better term). Our universe could be moving at plank time to him. His would still be subject to time in his universe.
And since Einstein time as a dimension has be debunked. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-physicists-abolish-fourth-dimension-space.html
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 07:23:30 AM »
According to the bible, Yahweh did not exist outside of space and time.

Genesis creation story. Yahweh took seven of his days for the creation. They were not earth days since there was no sun and moon. 2Peter3:8 "with the lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day."

Rev8:1 "now when the lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for something like half an hour."

The idea that Yahweh exists outside of space and time is just a convenient idea used by modern Christians to try to attempt to keep Yahweh beyond the range of science. They have actually defined their god out of existence since he cannot exist outside of space time anymore than he can create objective morality. Both are false abstractions of the human brain.

Also according to the bible, Yahweh did not create the universe from nothing. There was water before the creation, Gen1:1-2 "when god(s) began to create heaven and earth,.....the breath of the god(s) fluttered over the face of the waters, and god said..(the creation begins. It is creation by the word "let". Also John1 "in the beginning was the word")

2Peter3:5 "in taking this view they lose sight of the fact that there were heavens and earth long ago, created by god's word out of water and with water."

Modern Christians again just use the convenient idea that the universe was created by Yahweh from nothing to try another way to keep beyond the range of science. Once Christians claim that the universe was created from nothing, they are not only contradicting the bible again, but making a claim which has a scientific solution without any god.

So by updating their claims about Yahweh, Christians are not helping their claims, but showing their ignorance of modern scientific knowledge and showing the way that delusion refuses knowledge and damages society.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2014, 07:46:31 AM »
Alright. My claim still stands; God(s) need to have space and time to exist in.

Otherwise, he has a beginning, is automatically not eternal.

So, the only gods I think that fit that scenario, is Greek gods.

The first god was formed; Chaos. From him came others. They were all created. As far as I know, no Greek god made the universe itself (time and space).

So...in a way, Greek mythology is more correct than any abrahamic religion.

And since we know that even Greek gods don't exist, the Yahweh people are definitely wrong.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 08:45:08 PM »
Bump.

I would appreciate more input.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 10:57:33 PM »
Rev8:1 "now when the lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for something like half an hour."

So they are saying the concept of "half an hour" was a common one? Nothing I have ever read about the history of keeping time has ever credited early christians with coming up with anything.

Its just strange wording that seems, to me, to point towards it being authored or at least modified in more modern times.

I'm just commenting on the time aspect. And I find it ironic that the one thing mentioned int he book that might be real is half an hour, and nobody at the time had the wherewithal to measure such a thing. I can't even imagine that time in such short and specific segments was even imagined at that point in human history. Even if we evolved, which I assume we did.

Unless I missed the part where Adam wore a watch of something.

Addendum:

My bad. I thought I'd probably better research this a bit more before posting, and I came across this. Note god's left wrist. My bad.


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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 11:51:00 PM »
And since Einstein time as a dimension has be debunked. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-physicists-abolish-fourth-dimension-space.html

Did you read the comments under the article?

Popular science mags, like New Scientist are forever publishing the opinions of fringe scientists. They need to, to fill their pages. Something is not debunked, until you at least find evidence and get some popular support.




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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 12:00:15 AM »
Alright. My claim still stands; God(s) need to have space and time to exist in.

Otherwise, he has a beginning, is automatically not eternal.

So, the only gods I think that fit that scenario, is Greek gods.

The first god was formed; Chaos. From him came others. They were all created. As far as I know, no Greek god made the universe itself (time and space).

So...in a way, Greek mythology is more correct than any abrahamic religion.

And since we know that even Greek gods don't exist, the Yahweh people are definitely wrong.

What you are attempting to do, is rule God out, by saying you understand the universe. Then, when it's shown that you don't understand the universe, you attempt to redefine God to compensate for your lack of knowledge about the universe.

It's like trying to say that an unknown object is not in a very large box, when you have physically only explored .00000000001% of the box. Then somebody says, but if there is an unknown object in the rest of the box, we should be able to hear it. Well, not if the unknown object is silent, or too far away. Then someone says, we should be able to bounce radar off it. Well, not if it is radar invisible, or can block radar. After thinking of a few things, you then say, "It's preposterous that the unknown thing should be silent or radar invisible, therefore it's not there."

Another analogy is like monkeys up a tree saying that nothing can exist outside their tree, and that if anything did exist, then they would see it coming up the trunk.

You can't rule God out, if you really don't have a clue how the universe works, and also don't know what a God is. It's not a sound approach, IMHO.
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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2014, 12:30:36 AM »
According to the bible, Yahweh did not exist outside of space and time.

Genesis creation story. Yahweh took seven of his days for the creation. They were not earth days since there was no sun and moon. 2Peter3:8 "with the lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day."

Rev8:1 "now when the lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for something like half an hour."

The idea that Yahweh exists outside of space and time is just a convenient idea used by modern Christians to try to attempt to keep Yahweh beyond the range of science. They have actually defined their god out of existence since he cannot exist outside of space time anymore than he can create objective morality. Both are false abstractions of the human brain.

Also according to the bible, Yahweh did not create the universe from nothing. There was water before the creation, Gen1:1-2 "when god(s) began to create heaven and earth,.....the breath of the god(s) fluttered over the face of the waters, and god said..(the creation begins. It is creation by the word "let". Also John1 "in the beginning was the word")

2Peter3:5 "in taking this view they lose sight of the fact that there were heavens and earth long ago, created by god's word out of water and with water."

Modern Christians again just use the convenient idea that the universe was created by Yahweh from nothing to try another way to keep beyond the range of science. Once Christians claim that the universe was created from nothing, they are not only contradicting the bible again, but making a claim which has a scientific solution without any god.

So by updating their claims about Yahweh, Christians are not helping their claims, but showing their ignorance of modern scientific knowledge and showing the way that delusion refuses knowledge and damages society.

This is a generalized thread about a generic God. Your argument is only against one primitive Jewish God, as visualized by them.

If I create a VR on a computer, I can exist outside the VR, and inside the VR, as an avatar. I can also break all the apparent rules of the VR, and make angels, and move objects around. That is the way a god who is consistent with the Jewish model could work. A generic god can work any way he likes. In short: if I create a universe, then I can do anything I like in it, or out of it.

All we can do is debunk specific properties of gods, claimed by adherents.

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2014, 12:50:20 AM »
Evidence:

Based on our highly supported Big Bang theory, I am supported, by a large portion of the scientific community, in saying that Time and Space were only around at T=0 and forward.


Yeah, but physicists are developing another time dimension and putting all the universes on a big M brane, because they know damn well that the universe didn't just pop out of nothing.

I should remember which episodes of Through The Wormhole and BBC Universe deal with this. I will have a look at the last  ones I watched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology
I'm going have to ask you to warn theists and tell them "That does not warrant a case for a god." :)

Interesting, I will have to study up on that.

However, under my understanding that is still massively supported supported by evidence, Gods would still need to have time to exist in, and space to exist at.

After having read this back-and-forth discussion, since there might have been time before the big bang, I am now fully converted and not only believe that a god must have created the big bang, but it must have been the same loving yahweh who drown the whole earth in a flood 4,000 years ago and then repopulated 7,000,000,000 people from multiple ethnicities in 4,000 years with 8 people from on family.

Praise Jebus.

It must be true then, that Jebus is God right?

There's no other POSSIBLE explanation, and that's how come he could turn water into wine and cast demons into a herd of pigs and cool stuff like that.

And we know god loves and cares for us so much that he punishes us with Ebola and rewards us with things like football players catching touchdowns while little kids get abused.

It all makes sense now.

What it's spelled what?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2014, 02:16:44 AM »
We can disprove specific gods where required evidence is not present.

For instance, we can disprove a god that is described as (1) Truthful, and (2) Declares that two or more followers praying for the same thing will get it. We can perform an experiment to test this description, and we will be able to absolutely disprove the existence of the god of the particular test subjects chosen if the result is negative.

Of course, this leaves the infinity of other gods of other followers to disprove, but it does constitute "One Down..."
Denis Loubet

Offline Defiance

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2014, 06:56:33 AM »
Add hom, I am not trying to weasel out of any thing when I've shown I've been wrong.

Frankly, I find it odd that you can think that events happened earlier than Big Bang (ie differen tuniverses colliding, or branes). I am having trouble picturing ANY event happening without that event having any time to do that event, or a place for that event to happen.

As per our knowledge of the Big Bang, it makes sense to say we only know so much after 10^-43 seconds. If we knew time and space existed "before"; why would we say "we don't know"?

Frankly, I find your response to me a bit condescending. I know enough to start a discussion.

You know what, since you're supporting te claim of Time "before" the Big Bang, I would like to see some evidence. Maybe then I, the kid who doesn't know what he's talking about, can learn for himself.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Claim: God(s) don't exist.
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2014, 07:15:07 AM »
Add Homonym

Time the fourth dimension? Is a temporal dimension which conducts change you cant have time without change.

The other three are spatial dimensions.


Therefore as I said before nothing can be done without time. it is that simple. it isn't rocket science. Even a god would be subject to this rule. There is no getting away from that fact.
Even if this said god had the ability to change the rules of physics, just the fact that it has made the changes means it has envoked time.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12