Author Topic: how would you counter this, literalist post.  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2014, 02:54:54 PM »
Do you think the money spent on televangelism and tax benefits for the church and the exorbitant personal incomes of mega-rich Xian preachers is more important than the starving?


and yes I could be bothered I would find the scripture that says It IS THE JOB OF THE CHRISTIAN TO FEED THE STARVING

I absolutely do not agree with that either.

But, the fact remains that a lot of Americans would rather sit on the couch for 12 hours on a Sunday watching football stuffing themselves with every food known to man while drinking 3 6-packs and burping themselves to sleep at night.

You can't tell me that if millions of people stopped doing that, we couldn't make a difference.

So, while we sit on our couches and eat, what is god doing agian?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2014, 03:07:20 PM »
So, while we sit on our couches and eat, what is god doing agian?

I would imagine He's shaking His head in anger at our selfishness.

Of course you may say, "Maybe God likes that children are starving."
But then, would God be God if He acted like Satan?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2014, 03:09:29 PM »


There's the problem. If your god is real, he, after deciding that he had to punish all of us for original sin, now expects us, all automatically sinners, to police ourselves. You don't put 4 year olds in charge of the cookie jar, and you don't, if alternatives exist, put humans in charge of their own moral shortcomings. A god would be a pretty good alternative, under the circumstances.

If there is no god, and the range of human behaviors is natural, be they good or bad, the whole thing makes sense, and then, of course, we indeed have to police ourselves. But your alleged god, after creating two naïve waifs, decided to punish the entire human race for wrongdoings of those original two, and now he's just sitting back and letting billions suffer as a consequence. If he did drown the whole planet that time, it should be pretty obvious to him by now that that did no good. Its time for him to come up with a new strategy. We aren't doing well with either his high standards or his low rate of intervention (you know, which is zero)

And if there is no god, it does no good for large portions of the population to imagine that following biblical standards would solve everything. If the bible is just as made up as I assume it is, it can't be used as a guideline for anything other than perhaps a video game or two.

But, I believe God gave us free will from the beginning. He gave us a choice to eat or not to eat, and we chose to eat.

Suppose a child breaks curfew. The child had a choice to break curfew or not, right? Then you punish the child with a punishment that you deem fit. You don't blame yourself for setting the curfew in the first place, do you?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2014, 03:15:21 PM »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2014, 03:27:45 PM »
I'd like you to pause on this for a while:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

That is quite the dedication someone put into finding out God's killings. What if that effort was used to feed the starving instead? probably be a better use of time.

I'm not dodging by any means, just pointing out that it seems odd for someone who thinks God is fictional to analyze it to that extent.

Now, why did God kill that many people? Because He felt they were deserving of it because they refused to obey His commands. If God allowed those people to live, they would have slaughtered the believers. Of course, we can not do that at all. We do not have that authority. Only God does.

God is perfect. Therefore, anything He does is perfect, QED.
YOU may think it's wrong, but you are not perfect, so how can you know? it's quite a conundrum.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2014, 03:31:45 PM »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2014, 03:36:06 PM »


Let's think about it, though.

To you, you just see peace loving people who weren't doing anything wrong.
God sees fornicators, liars, adulterers, sodomites, cheaters, disobedient, mocking, ignoring, obsessed with material wealth, basically hedonism.

You really think God should just let it all go and just let everyone do whatever they want, no matter what it is? Does anybody respect a pushover like that? I wouldn't.

It's certainly sad that they died, but God felt it was the right thing to do. Am I in a position to judge God? I don't think I am.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Dante

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2014, 03:50:30 PM »
It's certainly sad that they died, but God felt it was the right thing to do. Am I in a position to judge God? I don't think I am.

Then you can't judge your god as "loving" either. Just sayin'
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2014, 03:57:55 PM »
Then you can't judge your god as "loving" either. Just sayin'

 :o Now that seems very sneaky......

Need time to ponder this one. Interesting.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online JeffPT

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2014, 04:02:08 PM »
I'd like you to pause on this for a while:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

That is quite the dedication someone put into finding out God's killings. What if that effort was used to feed the starving instead? probably be a better use of time.

I'm not dodging by any means, just pointing out that it seems odd for someone who thinks God is fictional to analyze it to that extent.

Now, why did God kill that many people? Because He felt they were deserving of it because they refused to obey His commands. If God allowed those people to live, they would have slaughtered the believers. Of course, we can not do that at all. We do not have that authority. Only God does.

God is perfect. Therefore, anything He does is perfect, QED.
YOU may think it's wrong, but you are not perfect, so how can you know? it's quite a conundrum.

Its not a conundrum at all.  You're just incorrect.  You're simply factually incorrect about the existence of God and about his perfection.  It's only a conundrum for someone who thinks this magical character exists. 

God is not real.  And thus, he's not perfect.  We only play this little 'if God were real' game with you because we're trying to show you how ridiculous it is from the inside.  The discussions on this website would go nowhere if all we said was 'no, God isn't real, end of story', even though it really does all come down to that. 

The reason that humanity is responsible for feeding the poor isn't that God won't do it; it's that God isn't REAL.  Would a fake God feed the hungry?  No, it wouldn't.  The God that you believe is real, and one that does not exist have this (as well as everything else) in common.  Some of us question the sanity of someone who chooses to think God perfect when he lets even 1 child die from cancer, starvation, AIDS, let alone the thousands and thousands that die.  Or of  someone who says something like you said above which is tantamount to saying 'all those people who God killed had it coming to them because they didn't do what he told them to do'.  Fuck that.  That's sick.  It's highly immoral and I wonder seriously why you can't see that.  Are you so blinded by the mantra 'God is perfect, God is perfect, God is perfect' playing over and over inside your head that you can't use your own judgement and ask yourself 'is God perfect?  Do I really think he's perfect?  Would a perfect God with omnipotent power not find another way around killing all of them?' 'What would perfect look like to me?'

Are you judging God as perfect through observation of reality, or are you just repeating the mantra that's been drilled into your head for so much of your life?   

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2014, 04:46:07 PM »
But, I believe God gave us free will from the beginning. He gave us a choice to eat or not to eat, and we chose to eat.

Suppose a child breaks curfew. The child had a choice to break curfew or not, right? Then you punish the child with a punishment that you deem fit. You don't blame yourself for setting the curfew in the first place, do you?

Well, when that free will includes the million people a year who die of malaria, the millions of innocents that die every year from violence, the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of abused little kids, etc. Does a child left in a hot car die while practicing free will? Does a child of 10 conscripted in to a rebel army by people who make it clear that he will be killed if he doesn't shoot the right people do that with free will? Slavery? Is it free will?

When my free will gets me what I want regardless of how cruelly I override the free will of some innocent person or persons, then the whole free will concept sucks so big it can't be described. You need to find a new term, like "enforced non-will" or something.

When I can trump your free will with my free will, then the whole concept is irrelevant. If your free will can be tromped on without notice, to any extent up to, and including death, while the person(s) that denied you your free will can go on living for fifty more years with wealth and power and no guilt whatsoever, then something is wrong. And if your god can't make allowance for the death and other pain that so, so many suffer by not having the free will to avoid such things, then free will is merely a minor feature that many people are willing to corrupt for you.

It ain't free will if it is that expensive.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Online jaimehlers

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2014, 05:12:23 PM »
That is quite the dedication someone put into finding out God's killings. What if that effort was used to feed the starving instead? probably be a better use of time.
It's no more a waste of time than, say, someone cataloging miracles, or other religious stuff.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I'm not dodging by any means, just pointing out that it seems odd for someone who thinks God is fictional to analyze it to that extent.
And how much time and effort have people put into analyzing the motivations of characters in Shakespearean plays?  People can and do spend huge amounts of effort on stuff that doesn't exist and/or is fictional.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Now, why did God kill that many people? Because He felt they were deserving of it because they refused to obey His commands. If God allowed those people to live, they would have slaughtered the believers. Of course, we can not do that at all. We do not have that authority. Only God does.
In case you haven't noticed, this is pretty much the rationale every "true believer" follower uses to justify their own particular ruler's actions.  At least you recognize that no human can be trusted with that level of authority, unlike many people.  But what you need to recognize is that the reasoning that leads you to argue that humans shouldn't have it also would apply to gods.  This has nothing to do with whether gods are real or not, but with the truism, "absolute power corrupts absolutely".  A being which has absolute power does not need to be responsible with it, because there is nothing that can hold them accountable, and no reason for them to ever learn to be accountable to begin with.

That's the real reason no human has that authority, because humans are automatically accountable to each other.  There is no intrinsic property that makes a ruler immune to being shot or killed by one of their subjects.  That's something we teach our children, most of the time, that actions have consequences and thus they need to be responsible with what they do.  Now imagine a being who is the pinnacle of existence - nothing else can do anything to it, and thus it can do anything to everything else.  When would it ever learn concepts such as decency, honesty, compassion, justice, all things we more or less take for granted?  Why would it ever need to?

Quote from: skeptic54768
God is perfect. Therefore, anything He does is perfect, QED.
YOU may think it's wrong, but you are not perfect, so how can you know? it's quite a conundrum.
Actually, the only way something 'perfect' can remain perfect is by doing nothing.  By definition, if something is perfect, then any change, no matter how slight, can only be for the worse.  That means either your god can be perfect and not have ever done anything, or else your god is imperfect because he does things and therefore the things he does are also imperfect.  It is impossible for your god to be perfect and do things and not be changed by doing those things.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2014, 07:49:54 PM »
I am intrigued by how you are dealing with this problem, skeptic: if we humans can not judge god as bad, how can we tell that god is good and Satan is bad?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2014, 08:06:53 PM »
It's certainly sad that they died, but God felt it was the right thing to do. Am I in a position to judge God? I don't think I am.

Then you can't judge your god as "loving" either. Just sayin'
he gives freewill then gets upset if you use it? So what is the reason to get angry over the use of freewill?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2014, 09:21:50 PM »
]he gives freewill then gets upset if you use it? So what is the reason to get angry over the use of freewill?

If you don't use it exactly the way he wants you to, god gets angry.

Apparently free will is really, really, really important. You just can't use it without pissing off the big guy. If you do exactly what he decided long ago he wants you to do, you aren't abusing it. But if you do anything other than that, you are.

Free will, as this god guy designed it, seems to provide a wonderful opportunity to go out and explore the world, and someday, even the universe.

Don't use it though. He gave it to us to exercise, not use.

I just figured out a way to explain this to Skep.

Quote
God shows up at the repair shop, says there is something wrong with his car engine. The mechanic looks at it and says "Holy crap, god, you haven't changed the oil on this thing for 6,000 years! The engine is toast. You're either gonna need a new engine or a new car."

"Well, since I'm god, you're gonna fix this thing for $30, and also since I'm god, I won't pay you anyway."

"You can't do that. I'll go broke. You know how hard it is to find parts of a 6,000 year old car, and how expensive they are?"

"Ah, I see that you're getting angry, and thinking bad thought, just like I knew you would 6,000 years ago when I created the world. So you've just pissed me off. I'll have to send you off to hell when you die. But you can't complain. Its all your fault.  You need to take full responsibility. Enjoy the rest of your life, loser. And have it ready by Wednesday."

I assume christians will read that and say "So? What's the point. The guy had free will to just fix the car at his own expense and do so cheerfully, since it was for god. It would be his fault. Totally. How else could you look at it?"

You can't make this crap up, 12. Well, you and I can, but they can't. Except that they do. Hope that makes sense.  ;D

Edit: Removed paragraph that didn't seem to fit. Just like god knew I would long long ago.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 09:23:35 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2014, 12:32:16 AM »
I am intrigued by how you are dealing with this problem, skeptic: if we humans can not judge god as bad, how can we tell that god is good and Satan is bad?

Still stumped, but still thinking.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2014, 12:33:42 AM »
he gives freewill then gets upset if you use it? So what is the reason to get angry over the use of freewill?

Same reason a parent gets upset if their child makes the wrong choice, but the parent still wants the child to choose.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2014, 12:36:13 AM »
But, I believe God gave us free will from the beginning. He gave us a choice to eat or not to eat, and we chose to eat.

Suppose a child breaks curfew. The child had a choice to break curfew or not, right? Then you punish the child with a punishment that you deem fit. You don't blame yourself for setting the curfew in the first place, do you?

Well, when that free will includes the million people a year who die of malaria, the millions of innocents that die every year from violence, the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of abused little kids, etc. Does a child left in a hot car die while practicing free will? Does a child of 10 conscripted in to a rebel army by people who make it clear that he will be killed if he doesn't shoot the right people do that with free will? Slavery? Is it free will?

When my free will gets me what I want regardless of how cruelly I override the free will of some innocent person or persons, then the whole free will concept sucks so big it can't be described. You need to find a new term, like "enforced non-will" or something.

When I can trump your free will with my free will, then the whole concept is irrelevant. If your free will can be tromped on without notice, to any extent up to, and including death, while the person(s) that denied you your free will can go on living for fifty more years with wealth and power and no guilt whatsoever, then something is wrong. And if your god can't make allowance for the death and other pain that so, so many suffer by not having the free will to avoid such things, then free will is merely a minor feature that many people are willing to corrupt for you.

It ain't free will if it is that expensive.

Good points.

I will say that I believe the people who get "screwed" so to speak, are compensated in Heaven. Yes, there's no denying that malaria and other diseases are terrible, but compared to eternity, it's a piece of cake. Not that I'm saying it's a piece of cake to live with malaria, but you get the point.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2014, 12:46:58 AM »
In case you haven't noticed, this is pretty much the rationale every "true believer" follower uses to justify their own particular ruler's actions.  At least you recognize that no human can be trusted with that level of authority, unlike many people.  But what you need to recognize is that the reasoning that leads you to argue that humans shouldn't have it also would apply to gods.  This has nothing to do with whether gods are real or not, but with the truism, "absolute power corrupts absolutely".  A being which has absolute power does not need to be responsible with it, because there is nothing that can hold them accountable, and no reason for them to ever learn to be accountable to begin with.

That's the real reason no human has that authority, because humans are automatically accountable to each other.  There is no intrinsic property that makes a ruler immune to being shot or killed by one of their subjects.  That's something we teach our children, most of the time, that actions have consequences and thus they need to be responsible with what they do.  Now imagine a being who is the pinnacle of existence - nothing else can do anything to it, and thus it can do anything to everything else.  When would it ever learn concepts such as decency, honesty, compassion, justice, all things we more or less take for granted?  Why would it ever need to?

Interesting point. So, are you saying that if God is real, then He basically has no choice but to act in unorthodox manners?

if you were God, would you act that way or would you be nice?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2014, 02:01:04 AM »
I will say that I believe the people who get "screwed" so to speak, are compensated in Heaven. Yes, there's no denying that malaria and other diseases are terrible, but compared to eternity, it's a piece of cake. Not that I'm saying it's a piece of cake to live with malaria, but you get the point.

Can you conceive of a conventional religious Christian reason why a child would be born into a world, to die prior to enlightenment, and then that child lives for eternity?

In a Buddhist world, the child suffers because he did something bad in his last life, and is denied this life to make amends, so is sent back to purgatory. Buddhism solves this injustice problem.

In a Christian world, the child is judged by God, by growing him up in God's mind, and giving him a pretend life, where he gets pretend converted. If God can do this, then why suffer anyone to be born at all? Or, is our current life just one of the multiple simulations that God is doing in his mind? If so, is there another reality, where I died at 5 months old, and then was grown up by God to become a Christian? Does God try all permutations of our character, and select the ones that heard about Jesus and believed?

If so, then God is selecting people for a very strange reason. If he can grow people up in his mind and get a consistent result, then it must be because we were born into this world with a soul, that was either corrupt or not corrupt, to start with. This means that the human body has no free will. The result is determined by the soul.

Alternatively, the Christian view doesn't work.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2014, 02:20:56 AM »
I suppose to make Christianity work, you could have a solipsist world, where everybody is born into the life I'm currently experiencing, and their soul is put to the test of whether they can become Christian using my upbringing and genetics.

That would be fair, and it would mean that the starving children in Africa weren't even real. That solves the apparent injustice problem. But it means that you lot aren't real.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline 1makesitwrong

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #108 on: August 21, 2014, 05:20:58 AM »
This is for skeptic

Suppose a child breaks curfew. The child had a choice to break curfew or not, right? Then you punish the child with a punishment that you deem fit. You don't blame yourself for setting the curfew in the first place, do you?
[/quote]
So you're saying that the parents have no culpability for that child breaking curfew? Did the parents set up reasonable parameters and the means for the child to meet the curfew? Are you saying your god has no responsibility for its creations when they kill? If I create something that has the ability to kill and then I give it no limitations, then it goes out and kills. That I have no culpability for it killing. So now to add insult to injury, I punish its offspring for the rest of eternity.
The bible was pronounced dead at the scene

Offline jdawg70

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2014, 09:05:15 AM »
Good points.

I will say that I believe the people who get "screwed" so to speak, are compensated in Heaven. Yes, there's no denying that malaria and other diseases are terrible, but compared to eternity, it's a piece of cake. Not that I'm saying it's a piece of cake to live with malaria, but you get the point.

So why doesn't god give people like malaria sufferers a choice?

The people who are 'screwed' so to speak are not being allowed to exercise their free will to abscond the Heaven-compensation package.  God doesn't come down to them and explain to them "look, bud, this stomach cancer thing sucks and all, but you're getting fabulous prizes afterwards!  But if you're not interested, I can just take the stomach cancer back.  But seriously though - fabulous prizes.  Make a choice."

Not to mention young children who suffer and die from such things.  They've been denied the opportunity to exercise their free will in the future - you know, the same opportunities that non-stomach cancer victims get - through no choice of their own.  And maybe they get an awesome compensation package afterwards, but you can't say they exercised their free will in receiving that package.

I dunno man.  'Free will' just kinda sounds like god's 'get out of jail free' card.  Between that and 'mysterious ways', he's got the most powerful that ain't my responsibility excuse ever devised.  That seems to be the one and only omniblah trait that god seems to actually possess - omni-unaccountability.  I don't know in what way being completely unaccountable benefits an inherently omni-benevolent entity.  I really don't.  But a devious, malicious entity?  Would an evil entity benefit from such a power?

Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2014, 09:24:36 AM »
I have previously posted this verse on this forum in order to show you guys that Old Earth Christians are calling Jesus a liar. And you guys were refuting my point.

But now when an atheist says the same thing, it's a brilliant point? Isn't that bias? How was it not brilliant when I said it months ago?

I'm not arguing for a young earth anymore. I'm just saying that it is very very very very very difficult to accept an old age for the earth and call yourself a Christian.

The alternative is to say that I don't believe Jesus' words and THAT is a very scary thing.

I totally agree that if you are a real Christian you have to accept the story of creation and the structure of the universe which was created by it.



The reason your argument is not brilliant is that today we know that the creation story is wrong and the universe is not the way the creation story and the rest of the bible says it is.

I would like to say that over the past few weeks I have been doing a lot of research about God, the Bible, and evolution. It really got me thinking and I realized that it all boils down to what Old Church Guy said about how we can't prove our experiences with God to each other and how it's not enough to convince the atheists unless they personally get the same experience.

One of the reasons I believe is because it is a more beautiful option to believe in heaven than eternal nothingness. I came to the conclusion that if neither side has rock solid proof, you might as well go with the more satisfying option of believing in Heaven and eternal paradise. This may not be enough for the atheists to believe, but I find it more satisfying personally.

Just because it is more beautiful does not make it true. What you want to be true is not the same as it actually being true.

That picture is not scripturally accurate. 

"And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2014, 09:27:14 AM »
Also, "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. (Job 26:7)

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2014, 09:29:10 AM »
he gives freewill then gets upset if you use it? So what is the reason to get angry over the use of freewill?

Same reason a parent gets upset if their child makes the wrong choice, but the parent still wants the child to choose.
So when you sin,what is your punishment? as opposed to the punishment of the non-believer?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2014, 09:30:48 AM »
Also, "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. (Job 26:7)
Does that match up with any known fact of the universe?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline screwtape

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2014, 10:15:41 AM »
That picture is not scripturally accurate. 

"And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

You're cherry picking.  It is a form of confirmation bias.  You are ignoring all the verses that support the primitive, flat-earth-in-a-dome model. 
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: how would you counter this, literalist post.
« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2014, 10:16:03 AM »




That picture is not scripturally accurate. 

"And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.


Ignorance. You are seeing what you want to see. The word "open" is not in the Hebrew. The proper translation of that verse is.

and let birds fly above the earth over the face of the firmament of heaven

"Face" is the same word as at the beginning of Genesis "the spirit of god moved over the face of the waters."

Why do religious people not read what the bible says?
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